EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 8254
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Ayaz2810
United States2763 Posts
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On July 30 2017 10:03 Ayaz2810 wrote: As a child diagnosed with ADHD at age 5, I would not have completed my education without Ritalin. Between no attention span, impulsive behavior, fighting (see: impulsive behavior), and always choosing immediate gratification (see: impulsive behavior), I would have been a total mess. I'm actually going to see a VA shrink on Monday to discuss starting it, or something equivalent, again. Arguing against modern pharmacology is fuckin' stupid. I'm a believer. Damn those flash games. Godspeed. Or however it's spelled. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
Like, by any intuitive definition of "normal," I'd think a brain with amphetamines in it is already not "normal." But that doesn't mean it's bad. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
So a proper ADHD patients brain is in an abnormal neurochemical state before medication, and in a normal state afterhand by increasing the level of formerly missing dopamine. It's not like you drug a kid up, they're not high after taking their medication. It reminds me a bit of a video i saw a while back, tourette and medical use of marijuana. A person shaking/spasm..ing? so bad that he literally was not able to live a life (not just comfortable or normal, he was hitting his teeth out by trying to eat etc), until he smoked a joint. He was normal afterwards. Not high. edit: Sidenote, by your definition, even after a single glass of beer, you already have an "unnormal brain chemistry", because alcohol blocks NMDA receptors. | ||
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farvacola
United States18876 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On July 30 2017 10:03 Ayaz2810 wrote: As a child diagnosed with ADHD at age 5, I would not have completed my education without Ritalin. Between no attention span, impulsive behavior, fighting (see: impulsive behavior), and always choosing immediate gratification (see: impulsive behavior), I would have been a total mess. I'm actually going to see a VA shrink on Monday to discuss starting it, or something equivalent, again. Arguing against modern pharmacology is fuckin' stupid. I'm a believer. No one is arguing against modern pharmacology. The reason why drugs like Ritalin and Adderal exist is because they have effects that counteract specific problems. Igne was only pointing out that these drugs have been overused on our children. Some children need these medications, but many who get them really don't. And the problem with these drugs is that they carry adverse side effects. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On July 30 2017 10:31 farvacola wrote: That's not a good comparison because there are thc/cbd preparations made specifically to cut out the euphoric "high" feeling (marinol being a good example). The dude who treats his tourettes with a joint is definitely "high" when he smokes and that's almost certainly part of the reason he treats that way. Yeah. I go with that video and what he describes, rather than your scientific psychological evaluation. Not gonna translate, pigs and pearls. | ||
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farvacola
United States18876 Posts
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On July 30 2017 10:35 farvacola wrote: lol, that video proves my point, the dude is definitely high and good for him. Yeah. How can you tell, out of interest? | ||
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farvacola
United States18876 Posts
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On July 30 2017 10:40 farvacola wrote: It's in his eyes and his affect as he keeps taking hits, dude reminds me of an old friend actually lol What's your profession? I mean, i'm just asking because you obviously are wrong. Like, factually. I just wanna make sure that you're in no way able to judge things that could have an effect on the life of other people. And i mean, you are factually wrong. edit: "lol" | ||
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farvacola
United States18876 Posts
Go ahead, I'm waiting for your indisputable facts in support of the claim that those who treat tourettes with marijuana don't feel high. Edit: Here's some basic reading on why choosing between THC and CBD is important.... for the guy who has all the facts. THC is classified as an illegal drug with considerable immediate and long-term cognitive side effects, including impaired thinking and reasoning, reduced ability to plan and organize, altered decision-making, and reduced control over impulses. In addition, chronic use of THC is associated with significant abnormalities in the heart and brain (1). CBD lacks the harmful cognitive effects of THC. In fact, CBD counteracts the psychoactive effects of THC, both in plant form and when administered from extract (4). Cannabis plants containing small amounts of CBD and high levels of THC result in a stronger “stoned” feeling, while plants with more CBD and less THC create a weaker “buzz.” Given the increasing popularity of medical marijuana, breeders are currently creating strains with higher CBD to THC ratios to minimize the psychoactive side effects. Overall, the lower health risks of CBD, combined with its efficacy, make it a better candidate for medical applications than THC. | ||
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
On July 30 2017 10:03 Ayaz2810 wrote: As a child diagnosed with ADHD at age 5, I would not have completed my education without Ritalin. Between no attention span, impulsive behavior, fighting (see: impulsive behavior), and always choosing immediate gratification (see: impulsive behavior), I would have been a total mess. I'm actually going to see a VA shrink on Monday to discuss starting it, or something equivalent, again. Arguing against modern pharmacology is fuckin' stupid. I'm a believer. I'm 35, I was diagnosed with ADHD finally at 32 or 33. I've had it forever obviously but after the diagnosis you look back and go HOLY FUCK. Everything makes so much fucking sense once you do research and understand the problem. I've never been super outbursty, but my attention deficit aspect is off the fucking charts, it's super severe. My best friend was diagnosed in HS and the pills helped him in a major way. My brother (who is 3 years older than me) was diagnosed probably around 32 or 33 and drugs have MASSIVELY helped him. He was thrown out of HS, went to alternative school and was thrown out of that. We never had insurance growing up so going to a doctor was never in the cards. Since he started taking drugs he's gone to college and is looking to start grad school for micro biology. There's a bunch of fools out there who think ADHD is a crock of shit, but as someone who has lived it and been surrounded by it it is very fucking real. I don't necessarily want to get into the specifics of my case, but its very severe. There are alternative treatments that can help, sure. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy can be huge, Meditation/mindfulness can be huge as well, some studies suggest marijuana can be very helpful and honestly I'd give that a try myself. A few things are for certain though, you're going to have to change the way you function as a human if you want to fit into societies mold of normalcy. I need to carry a notebook with me everywhere because I forget shit like you wouldn't believe. I need a bunch of paper stapled together to be my functioning memory, this shit isn't a joke. Society deems a person within this set of parameters to be "normal" (which is why I use quotes personally because wtf is normal really?). Now with ADHD you've got a significantly heightened chance of abusing drugs and alcohol, of ending up in prison, of in general just being someone society deems a "scumbag". You're significantly more prone to pitfalls that other people don't fall into. Your mental reward center is totally fucked so you're more prone to act impulsively and do crazy shit because the little things don't reward you. You can't just sit there and read the book like everyone else, you daydream about killing zombies or you want to take your bike and do some double tailwhips into the fucking grand canyon. If you go back in time these things aren't that big of a problem. ADHD people are the "doers" of the world. They're the hunters, the adventurers. The people who can't just tend to the soil on a farm, they gotta go run through the forest chasing a deer to kill. These sorts of roles are fewer and further between now days quite obviously. Now days that kind of thing is less useful overall to society and what society deems "normal" so if we're to fit into society and not be vagrants and impulse driven savages we've gotta do things like trick the reward centers of our brains with chemicals so we can attempt hit some sense of normalcy. And even back in the old days when we were doing our bit to help society in our own way by exploring and hunting we STILL fell into all the pitfalls. Drugs, injury, death, being outcast, etc. It's not like addiction is a new thing for humanity, it existed back then as well. Now drugs don't work for everyone. I've tried a few different drugs and they were all horrifying experiences. I'm currently unmedicated (besides caffeine which I've ALWAYS self medicated with) I've tried stimulants like Vyvanse and non stimulants like Strattera. One of them made me super anxious all the time, the other made me super depressed and suicidal. They scared the shit out of me, the brain is a crazy thing and you really don't understand it's power and the staggering power of pharmaceuticals till you've been on them. Those experiences were so fucking horrifying it took me almost a year till I felt "normal" again, till I felt like my old self that I felt like for 33 years. My broken and very very flawed self, but at least I feel normal again. Those drugs fucked my shit up real bad and swore me off fucking with crazy ass mental drugs. BUT I've seen the glory of those drugs as well in my brother and my best friend. They didn't work for me, but they work very well for a lot of people. I hate ignorant people running their mouth like they have any clue what it's like to live with ADHD, and clue what the drugs can do. It's not for everyone, nothing is the answer for every person. But more kids being diagnosed is a good thing! It's like more kids being diagnosed with Autism, we've got more awareness of it now and kids having healthcare and going to a doc to get diagnosed is fantastic! I had to live decades with this shit, only a monster wouldn't want kids to be diagnosed and attempt to treat them. The "too many kids now days" argument is so stupid, you have no idea. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
On July 30 2017 10:08 ChristianS wrote: My point was not that making brain chemistry normal wouldn't be a possible treatment for a condition, it was that it's not the goal in and of itself. If there's some abnormal brain chemistry that has no negative effects, we'd have no problem with that. "Normal brain chemistry" is only the goal if you define normal brain chemistry as "any state of the brain which causes no negative effects or symptoms," which is a useless definition for these purposes. Like, by any intuitive definition of "normal," I'd think a brain with amphetamines in it is already not "normal." But that doesn't mean it's bad. It's worth pointing out that downstream of ABCD in your example are a whole series of transcription factors, up/down regulators, other hormones being synthesised/degraded and so on, and if it's anything like a normal pathway we don't even know what half of them are. I think it's fair to say that somewhere downstream of ABCD there will be DEFG, and that by correcting a lack of B with an artificial addition of B', you achieve levels of DEFG matching those in healthy individuals as well as cessation of symptoms. It's not unreasonable to call that state normal even if an actual normal individual would not have B' in the mix. That said, I do think that "normal brain chemistry" smells a bit like a phrase invented by someone pretending they know what they're doing. That's probably why it's been over-quoted in the whole exchange. "Normal" is just a straight-up useless word in any serious discussion. | ||
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farvacola
United States18876 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46692 Posts
On July 30 2017 10:34 m4ini wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pInkduXOQac Yeah. I go with that video and what he describes, rather than your scientific psychological evaluation. Not gonna translate, pigs and pearls. This just blew my mind because I've had minor Tourette's for 20+ years and had never heard of marijuana as a viable treatment, and after reading through the research it seems like a hell of a lot better than the medication I was given as a kid. | ||
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farvacola
United States18876 Posts
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
On July 30 2017 10:57 farvacola wrote: My dad developed a really strong taste for coffee around age 3 that he maintains to this day and it's his sole form of treatment for his severe ADHD. The paradoxical effects of stimulants can be pretty crazy. My problem is I hate the taste of coffee so I add a bunch of sugar and chocolate to mask the taste which just makes it awful for you lol. There's the whole meme of "haha don't talk to be before I have my coffee lol" but you've got no idea man. I'm an entirely different person with and without caffeine. I drank Mt Dew like it was lifeblood. Again looking back it all makes sense, but I've been self medicating my entire life to try and hit some shitty level of normal. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On July 30 2017 10:48 farvacola wrote: I'm not gonna get into a IRL dick measuring contest with a guy who makes claims as to factual inaccuracy without any facts, but I have personal contact with both a grower who supplies folks with tourettes and a doctor at one of the largest universities in the US who is an advocate. The science behind the how and why marijuana treats tourettes in the first place is extremely new and undeveloped, so this whole "You're factually wrong about this thing we don't have many good facts about even though all I referenced is a video I see differently" spiel isn't exactly very convincing. Go ahead, I'm waiting for your indisputable facts in support of the claim that those who treat tourettes with marijuana don't feel high. Edit: Here's some basic reading on why choosing between THC and CBD is important.... for the guy who has all the facts. On July 30 2017 10:48 farvacola wrote: I'm not gonna get into a IRL dick measuring contest with a guy who makes claims as to factual inaccuracy without any facts, but I have personal contact with both a grower who supplies folks with tourettes and a doctor at one of the largest universities in the US who is an advocate. The science behind the how and why marijuana treats tourettes in the first place is extremely new and undeveloped, so this whole "You're factually wrong about this thing we don't have many good facts about even though all I referenced is a video I see differently" spiel isn't exactly very convincing. Go ahead, I'm waiting for your indisputable facts in support of the claim that those who treat tourettes with marijuana don't feel high. Edit: Here's some basic reading on why choosing between THC and CBD is important.... for the guy who has all the facts. Except that the guy who has "all the facts" doesn't. What he's smoking there, he got prescribed. It's medicinal cannabis. On prescription. Let me briefly re-check. That's not a good comparison because there are thc/cbd preparations made specifically to cut out the euphoric "high" feeling (marinol being a good example). The dude who treats his tourettes with a joint is definitely "high" when he smokes and that's almost certainly part of the reason he treats that way. That's what he's smoking. How do i know? I watched the entire thing, not just the 4:20 (eh?) that i linked. Which included his appointment at the doctors. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On July 30 2017 10:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: This just blew my mind because I've had minor Tourette's for 20+ years and had never heard of marijuana as a viable treatment, and after reading through the research it seems like a hell of a lot better than the medication I was given as a kid. All three parts. I can't tell you if it always works, for everyone. But there certainly are people for which it does, big time. edit: nevermind i'm an idiot, that's not tourette, that's parkinson. Still, worth pointing out, just because it makes me happy to see the guy relax, because it'd drive me absolutely insane. | ||
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