EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 8187
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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KwarK
United States44440 Posts
On July 26 2017 09:28 Plansix wrote: Europe only advanced as a group when nations told Christianity to fuck off. The chuch is credited with holding civilization back, not pushing forward. This is some revisionist history of the highest order. Hence ante hoc ergo propter hoc. A happened before B, therefore B caused A. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9077 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 26 2017 09:29 KwarK wrote: Hence ante hoc ergo propter hoc. A happened before B, therefore B caused A. So on point. It is infuriating to have discussions about European history with people only only read the cliff notes and played civilization. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9077 Posts
On July 26 2017 09:31 xDaunt wrote: I find it funny that y'all are bringing up the omission of the medieval age of history because that is precisely the age when Christianity was the prime curator of what came to be Western culture. Were my appeals to Aquinas not clear enough? I brought it up because that is a false statement. If anything, it took the Enlightenment of the 18th century to undo the fuckery that was done. There was not one single thing that Medieval christianity did right, imo. Should we define that we are talking about Christianity and notCatholicism? I think that may be something that should be noted before going further in this debate. | ||
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KwarK
United States44440 Posts
On July 26 2017 09:31 xDaunt wrote: I find it funny that y'all are bringing up the omission of the medieval age of history because that is precisely the age when Christianity was the prime curator of what came to be Western culture. Were my appeals to Aquinas not clear enough? Firstly, no. When you say Christianity was the prime curator you're thinking of what used to be known as the Dark Ages. Aquinas is hundreds of years later. And how much of your definition of western culture Let's start with a broad definition of Western culture, which would include traditions of individual liberty, inalienable rights, political plurality, rationalism, and the rule of law has its roots in medieval Christianity? If you're going to trace that to Aquinas, and apparently you want to try, then by all means show us.You spend an awful lot of time trying to imply that you have an argument and remarkably little time actually making it. So, your claim is that the medieval period was when Christianity curated what came to be western culture. Show us the roots of western culture in 13th Century Christianity. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 26 2017 09:31 xDaunt wrote: I find it funny that y'all are bringing up the omission of the medieval age of history because that is precisely the age when Christianity was the prime curator of what came to be Western culture. Were my appeals to Aquinas not clear enough? And the leading regressor of enlightened thought, science and the arts. The concept of nationalism grew out of a desire to escape the political influence of the church. And the reason most EU nations are deeply secular to this day. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 26 2017 09:34 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: I brought it up because that is a false statement. If anything, it took the Enlightenment of the 18th century to undo the fuckery that was done. There was not one single thing that Medieval christianity did right, imo. Should we define that we are talking about Christianity and notCatholicism? I think that may be something that should be noted before going further in this debate. If we are taking pre-enlightenment, Catholicism almost all Christianity. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9077 Posts
On July 26 2017 09:41 Plansix wrote: If we are taking pre-enlightenment, Catholicism almost all Christianity. Ok thanks. I'll admit I'm not versed on theology as well as some of you. I read about it when I need to but I don't pretend to know much of anything. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On July 26 2017 09:41 Plansix wrote: If we are taking pre-enlightenment, Catholicism almost all Christianity. what about orthodox? also, pre-enlightenment still has quite a bit of time that's post-reformation. so that's also a bunch of non-catholic stuff. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On July 26 2017 09:38 KwarK wrote: Firstly, no. When you say Christianity was the prime curator you're thinking of what used to be known as the Dark Ages. Aquinas is hundreds of years later. Shit like this is why no one should take you seriously. The Church was still the curator of Western culture up until the time of the Renaissance. Aquinas was very clearly a (if not the) predominant philosopher between the fall of Rome and the Renaissance. As such, there is nothing inaccurate about my statement. And how much of your definition of western culturehas its roots in medieval Christianity? If you're going to trace that to Aquinas, and apparently you want to try, then by all means show us. You spend an awful lot of time trying to imply that you have an argument and remarkably little time actually making it. So, your claim is that the medieval period was when Christianity curated what came to be western culture. Show us the roots of western culture in 13th Century Christianity. And I already told you half a dozen times what one of the big links is between Christianity and Western culture: natural law. The problem, as I have pointed out, is that you clearly don't understand what natural law is or how it came to be. Your willful ignorance isn't my fault. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 26 2017 09:43 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: Ok thanks. I'll admit I'm not versed on theology as well as some of you. I read about it when I need to but I don't pretend to know much of anything. Most of the flavors of modern Christianity came about during or post Reformation. What we know as Catholicism was The dominant version of Christianity for centuries, with the Pope and higher clergy influencing the politics of the era. The Reformation is the rebellion against that influence, among other things. The enlightenment a furthering of those thoughts and a general challenge to the concept of monarchy. And it is straight up not taught in US public schools. On July 26 2017 09:46 zlefin wrote: what about orthodox? also, pre-enlightenment still has quite a bit of time that's post-reformation. so that's also a bunch of non-catholic stuff. You are right. My EU history is a well over decade out of use. But the reformation leads right into the Enlightenment. It is hard to disconnect the two in any meaningful way. Once again, this is why it isn't taught in US schools. To messy and teaches that there are many version of the bible. | ||
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KwarK
United States44440 Posts
On July 26 2017 09:48 xDaunt wrote: Shit like this is why no one should take you seriously. The Church was still the curator of Western culture up until the time of the Renaissance. Aquinas was very clearly a (if not the) predominant philosopher between the fall of Rome and the Renaissance. As such, there is nothing inaccurate about my statement. And I already told you half a dozen times what one of the big links is between Christianity and Western culture: natural law. The problem, as I have pointed out, is that you clearly don't understand what natural law is or how it came to be. Your willful ignorance isn't my fault. Again with this. Sigh. You can't just say "I have an argument, it's in the box called Aquinas, I call it natural law, trust me". MAKE. THE. ARGUMENT. Show us. If you genuinely want to make the argument that medieval Christianity was the root of the belief that men all men are born equal and that God does not ordain some men to rule over others (which is a super interesting argument to make given the whole way that it's completely and utterly false) then go ahead and show us. Show us the priests smashing down the established order. Show us the populist mobs. Show us the communes they founded. Come on. Sources. Honestly at a certain point this looks like you've just been utterly failed by the US educational system. Did you not have essay questions growing up? Do you literally not know how to structure a basic 3 paragraph essay? Literally all you do is imply that you have an argument. Over and over. Even when specifically called out on it and told that you're not making an argument. Do you know what an argument looks like? Do you know how to write one? You can't just say "natural law" and "Aquinas". It doesn't work that way. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10167 Posts
On July 26 2017 09:10 Plansix wrote: The purported definition of "Western Culture" the US education system's lack luster treatment of world history. Which flows like this: 1: ancient Egypt, because pyramids and tombs. 2: ancient Greece, because Sparta, Plato, kinda democracy and theater 3: ancient Rome, because they made a bunch of movies about it And then 4:The Enlightenment 5:The Renaissance 6: America Okey, i know it is a mocking post, but i have to ask. Is it really taught in that specific order ? | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On July 26 2017 09:57 Godwrath wrote: Okey, i know it is a mocking post, but i have to ask. Is it really taught in that specific order ? My memories are very vague but I was taught Renaissance then Enlightenment. I come from a pretty religious area so Enlightenment was some very vague references to certain philosophers, couched in lots of language discouraging them from being read. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 26 2017 09:57 Godwrath wrote: Okey, i know it is a mocking post, but i have to ask. Is it really taught in that specific order ? The US education system does not do well with non-linear history. The concept that many important things happen all at the same time confuses us. Teaching kids that the civil rights movement, Cuban missile crisis and Vietnam war were all happening at the same time is a bit much for some students. So yes, the Renaissance and Enlightenment are taught as two separate topics that are not connected in any way. Sometimes in the wrong order. Or with the Reformation mashed in there because Henry the 8th is cool, there is a song about him. And then there is Queen Elizabeth, because people like to talk about her. But mostly they are not taught at all. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9077 Posts
On July 26 2017 09:51 Plansix wrote: Most of the flavors of modern Christianity came about during or post Reformation. What we know as Catholicism was The dominant version of Christianity for centuries, with the Pope and higher clergy influencing the politics of the era. The Reformation is the rebellion against that influence, among other things. The enlightenment a furthering of those thoughts and a general challenge to the concept of monarchy. And it is straight up not taught in US public schools. You are right. My EU history is a well over decade out of use. But the reformation leads right into the Enlightenment. It is hard to disconnect the two in any meaningful way. Once again, this is why it isn't taught in US schools. To messy and teaches that there are many version of the bible. I got the gist of that through self research. The Enlightenment and Reformation was touched in high school, but not in depth. I learned about Martin Luther and the philosophers of the era. And the Inquisition as well. But like I said, just the basics were touched throughout schooling. The US education system does not do well with non-linear history. The concept that many important things happen all at the same time confuses us. Teaching kids that the civil rights movement, Cuban missile crisis and Vietnam war were all happening at the same time is a bit much for some students. So yes, the Renaissance and Enlightenment are taught as two separate topics that are not connected in any way. Sometimes in the wrong order. Or with the Reformation mashed in there because Henry the 8th is cool, there is a song about him. And then there is Queen Elizabeth, because people like to talk about her. But mostly they are not taught at all. When did you go through school, just out of curiosity? | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
Energy Secretary Rick Perry thought he was talking about cyberhacking and a biofuel breakthrough in a call with Ukraine Prime Minister Volodymyr Hroisman. Alas, the 22-minute phone call was actually conducted with Russian pranksters. Vladimir Kuznetsov and Alexei Stolyarov, who are described as the "Jerky Boys of Russia," have conducted similar prank calls with U.S. Senator John McCain and singer Elton John. They arranged the call with Perry last week, just a few weeks after he had met with Ukraine’s president, Petro Poroshenko, and his delegation. In it they pitched Perry on a new fuel made from alcohol and manure and discussed President Donald Trump’s decision to withdraw from the Paris climate accord, according to a recording posted online. They also wondered if Ukraine could get a cut-rate deal on U.S. coal exports. Maybe, Perry said. “Negotiation is always possible,” he told them. Ukraine and Russia are neighbors, but at odds over Russia’s annexation of the disputed Crimean region. Congress is poised to toughen sanctions on Russia following its actions in the 2016 U.S. election campaign. "We look forward to bringing some oil and gas interests to the Ukraine," Perry said during the call, adding that the Trump administration opposed the proposed Nordstream 2 pipeline across the Baltic Sea to Germany. The administration is supportive of sanctions against Russia, Perry added. Calls between Cabinet secretaries and foreign officials are typically closely vetted; it’s not clear how the pranksters connected with Perry. Energy Department spokeswoman Shaylyn Hynes confirmed the faux phone call took place. “Secretary Perry is the latest target of two Russian pranksters," Hynes said in an email. "These individuals are known for pranking high level officials and celebrities, particularly those who are supportive of an agenda that is not in line with their governments. In this case, the energy security of Ukraine.” The Jerky Boys were a pair of American pranksters who sold millions of recordings of their prank phone calls with unsuspecting victims in the 1990s. Kuznetsov and Stolyarov have adopted the same practice, posting audio of the calls online. The phone call was first reported by E&E News. https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2017-07-25/rick-perry-punked-into-fake-interview-with-russian-jerky-boys | ||
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