EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 8186
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
KwarK
United States43538 Posts
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ZerOCoolSC2
9025 Posts
Let's start with a broad definition of Western culture, which would include traditions of individual liberty, inalienable rights, political plurality, rationalism, and the rule of law (I'd throw Christianity in there as well, but I'm not sure that we need to go down that rabbit hole yet). But this can be applied to Asian cultures as well. This list isn't exclusive to Western Culture at all. Or are you saying that WC is so invasive that it manifested itself into those other cultures? That's giving WC way too much credit, imo. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On July 26 2017 08:36 xDaunt wrote: No, that isn't my definition of Western culture, but I find it amusing and telling that y'all are so hung up on the role Christianity plays. I think getting hung up on how integral a religion is to your definition of Western culture is pretty important when your starting point for evaluating how different cultures are is "are they X religion." Just call it Christian culture if you want to have Christianity be a core tenet. Don't build some verbal smokescreen to make it sound like you're talking about some region when you're talking about nothing of the sort. I mean, if you didn't think it was foolish or at least somewhat deceptive you wouldn't have added an addenda about not wanting to go down that rabbit hole. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On July 26 2017 08:37 KwarK wrote: I would still absolutely love to hear xDaunt tell us what it meant to be a Roman or a Greek. I guess you never heard of Aristotle or Cicero. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On July 26 2017 08:40 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: But this can be applied to Asian cultures as well. This list isn't exclusive to Western Culture at all. Or are you saying that WC is so invasive that it manifested itself into those other cultures? That's giving WC way too much credit, imo. Which Asian country do you have in mind? | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10137 Posts
On July 26 2017 07:57 xDaunt wrote: Christianity is inseparable from Western culture. What we now know as Western culture is the product of classical Greek culture, Roman culture, and Christianity. The Enlightenment didn't happen in a vacuum. I don't disagree with you about that (and by this, i mean christian), but i find that most of the time it had been blocking the way to where we are today, like a stone to circumvent in some way or another, not the opposite. Every advance, had been fighting the church's facts. Since i am sure you are well aware of the counter-reform and how behind it left Spain in those areas which you describe as core good western cultural values through christian philosophers you mention, i hope you can understand how skeptical i am about religious conservatism when it comes to promoting anthropocentric values from classical culture for western culture. | ||
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KwarK
United States43538 Posts
On July 26 2017 08:46 xDaunt wrote: I guess you never heard of Aristotle or Cicero. Aristotle would not have called himself a Greek citizen. As for Cicero, he wouldn't have called most of the Roman citizens who ever lived Roman. Incidentally, I was a Classics major. Whereas you, very evidently, were not. Not only have I heard of Aristotle, I've read him. In the original texts. In ancient Greek. Which I learned. Again, I would love to hear you tell us what it meant to be a Roman or a Greek. | ||
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KwarK
United States43538 Posts
Hell, there are no shortage of extremely regressive Christians, from the child raping cults of Utah to most of west Africa. There is nothing intrinsic about Christianity that makes it western, it became western because it was defined by the west. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9025 Posts
Let's pick Japan, post Perry invasion? Or Philippines pre-1940s? Also, when you say "tradtion," how far back are we going in time? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
1: ancient Egypt, because pyramids and tombs. 2: ancient Greece, because Sparta, Plato, kinda democracy and theater 3: ancient Rome, because they made a bunch of movies about it And then 4:The Enlightenment 5:The Renaissance 6: America All that shit between Rome and 1800, forget it. To complicated. No real nations? The Holy Roman Empire isn't just Rome 2.0? Who are the Byzantines? What is this Ottoman Empire thing and why do people keep saying they invested math? What do you mean they were all Muslim and way more advanced? What is this silk road, isn't that a website for drugs? What about the 19 flavors of holy war? How can you teach that to kids? No one makes movies about that era. Robin Hood isn't real, so why bother? This is US education in a nutshell. Take all the easy to understand stuff, and skip over that complex middle part. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On July 26 2017 08:42 TheTenthDoc wrote: I think getting hung up on how integral a religion is to your definition of Western culture is pretty important when your starting point for evaluating how different cultures are is "are they X religion." Just call it Christian culture if you want to have Christianity be a core tenet. Don't build some verbal smokescreen to make it sound like you're talking about some region when you're talking about nothing of the sort. I mean, if you didn't think it was foolish or at least somewhat deceptive you wouldn't have added an addenda about not wanting to go down that rabbit hole. No, it is incorrect to equate Western culture to Christianity, which is why I haven't done it. All that I am pointing out is the historical fact that Western culture is the product of Christianity (among other things) and thus inseparable from it. This is historical fact. I get that people on the Left who despise Christianity for one reason or another really don't like admitting the truth here, but the truth is the truth. You can no more easily divorce Christianity from Western culture and heritage than you can Roman and Greek influences. Hell, it should be self-evident that the predominant religion in a culture will heavily influence that culture. Would anyone dare claim that Arab culture is not largely a product of Islam? | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On July 26 2017 08:49 KwarK wrote: Aristotle would not have called himself a Greek citizen. As for Cicero, he wouldn't have called most of the Roman citizens who ever lived Roman. Incidentally, I was a Classics major. Whereas you, very evidently, were not. Not only have I heard of Aristotle, I've read him. In the original texts. In ancient Greek. Which I learned. Again, I would love to hear you tell us what it meant to be a Roman or a Greek. I see that you keep repeating this, but you clearly are missing the point. I never equated Western culture to Roman culture or Greek culture. I'm just undecided as to whether this oversight of yours is willful (as usual) or because you really don't know any better. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On July 26 2017 08:36 xDaunt wrote: No, that isn't my definition of Western culture, but I find it amusing and telling that y'all are so hung up on the role Christianity plays. You literally wrote On July 26 2017 07:57 xDaunt wrote: You literally wrote it. That's why we are talking about christianity. It's not him, it's you.Christianity is inseparable from Western culture. | ||
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KwarK
United States43538 Posts
On July 26 2017 09:11 xDaunt wrote: No, it is incorrect to equate Western culture to Christianity, which is why I haven't done it. All that I am pointing out is the historical fact that Western culture is the product of Christianity (among other things) and thus inseparable from it. This is historical fact. I get that people on the Left who despise Christianity for one reason or another really don't like admitting the truth here, but the truth is the truth. You can no more easily divorce Christianity from Western culture and heritage than you can Roman and Greek influences. Hell, it should be self-evident that the predominant religion in a culture will heavily influence that culture. Would anyone dare claim that Arab culture is not largely a product of Islam? Stop pretending that you know about Roman and Greek influences, thanks. As for Arab culture being a product of Islam? Of course I would claim that it's not. Islam is a product of Arab culture, not the other way around. It's the "divine" and unchanging word of a 7th century Arab warlord and his followers. How could it be anything else? Muslims all around the world have distinct and differing cultures, if we were to accept your proposition that Arabs are Arabs because they're Muslims, well, explain Bosnia. Or Singapore. Hell, the timeline doesn't even make sense. Arabs came first, Islam can't cause Arabs, Arabs cause Islam. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 26 2017 09:11 xDaunt wrote: No, it is incorrect to equate Western culture to Christianity, which is why I haven't done it. All that I am pointing out is the historical fact that Western culture is the product of Christianity (among other things) and thus inseparable from it. This is historical fact. I get that people on the Left who despise Christianity for one reason or another really don't like admitting the truth here, but the truth is the truth. You can no more easily divorce Christianity from Western culture and heritage than you can Roman and Greek influences. Hell, it should be self-evident that the predominant religion in a culture will heavily influence that culture. Would anyone dare claim that Arab culture is not largely a product of Islam? Which era? The Outtoman empire? Post WW1 Middle East under the burden of Western Imperialism and nation building? Post WW2 and cold war Middle East? Is modern Iran a product of Islam or America fucking with them? | ||
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KwarK
United States43538 Posts
On July 26 2017 09:13 xDaunt wrote: I see that you keep repeating this, but you clearly are missing the point. I never equated Western culture to Roman culture or Greek culture. I'm just undecided as to whether this oversight of yours is willful (as usual) or because you really don't know any better. I really admire your absolute inability to recognize when you demonstrably have no fucking clue what you're talking about. But okay, so you can't answer that. Please describe the ways in which Roman culture or Greek culture influenced western culture. Or if you can't answer that, what can you tell us about the Greeks or the Romans? Anything? Make a claim. Fill in the blanks. Western culture has ______ because of ___________. | ||
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pmh
1399 Posts
On July 26 2017 08:00 KwarK wrote: Utter nonsense. You know nothing about Roman culture, less about Greek culture, and the enlightenment was the express rejection of the Christian divine hierarchy. You know what, let's do this. Define Roman culture. Define Greek culture. List the exclusively Roman elements of western culture (and don't do cop outs like "law" as if the Romans were the first people to write down a legal code). List the exclusively Greek elements of western culture (and don't give me "asking questions like Socrates" as if nobody would have come up with the idea of asking questions without the Greeks). Specifically I want some kind of causal line that shows the ideas being communicated "classical Greek culture" to western culture. Ideally it'll outweigh other cultural influences from other parts of the world because you didn't list, for example, Arabic mathematics. xdaunt is quiet right though in my opinion, western culture has been shaped by jewish/Christianity. Christianity has given us our morals and even our phylosophys and science,which all started by us trying to understand gods work and morals. For this they build on the groundwork laid by the old greek and romans. People have this wrong image of Christianity harming science,which obviously does not comply with the facts. Western science has made enormous progress during the time Christianity was a very dominant force in Europe. Other countries who had different religion or no religion at all have made much less scientific progress in that time. Then off course you can point to all the incidents where the church did harm scientific progress but in the end, our culture which has been 100% based on Christianity for centurys,has produced very good scientific results. The church did a few bad things for science,but in the end they did (indirectly) far more good things by for example creating and shaping the culture and economy that made the scientific progress possible in the first place. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On July 26 2017 08:47 Godwrath wrote: I don't disagree with you about that (and by this, i mean christian), but i find that most of the time it had been blocking the way to where we are today, like a stone to circumvent in some way or another, not the opposite. Every advance, had been fighting the church's facts. Since i am sure you are well aware of the counter-reform and how behind it left Spain in those areas which you describe as core good western cultural values through christian philosophers you mention, i hope you can understand how skeptical i am about religious conservatism when it comes to promoting anthropocentric values from classical culture for western culture. I'm well aware of the bad parts of Christianity's history and how it obstructed aspects of the development of Western culture at various points. The difference between me and most of the other posters, however, is that I will not overlook the contributions that Christianity made to Western culture. You have to take the bitter with the sweet. Furthermore, you can't look at Christianity or the Catholic Church as being a monolithic influence on the development of Western culture. There never really was pure uniformity in Christian thought. In fact, Christianity became increasingly fragmented as time went on. Various factions within Christianity had different agendas and thus influenced (or impeded) Western development in different ways. | ||
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KwarK
United States43538 Posts
On July 26 2017 09:21 pmh wrote: xdaunt is quiet right though in my opinion, western culture has been shaped by Christianity. Christianity has given us our morals and even our phylosophys and science,which all started by us trying to understand gods work and morals. People have this wrong image of Christianity harming science,which obviously does not comply with the facts. Western science has made enormous progress during the time Christianity was a very dominant force in Europe. Other countries who had different religion have made much less scientific progress in that time. Then off course you can point to all the incidents where the church did harm scientific progress but in the end, our culture which has been 100% based on Christianity for centurys,has produced very good scientific results. The church did a few bad things for science,but in the end they did (indirectly) far more good things by for example creating and shaping the culture and economy that made the scientific progress possible in the first place. A rare example of ante hoc ergo propter hoc. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On July 26 2017 09:16 Dangermousecatdog wrote: You literally wroteYou literally wrote it. That's why we are talking about christianity. It's not him, it's you. Look up what inseparable means. | ||
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