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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
It should come as a welcome development for people that thought the Trump Tower meeting was absolutely unethical.
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President Donald Trump has himself to blame for the appointment of Robert Mueller. But that doesn’t mean Mr. Trump or the republic deserves the damage Mr. Mueller seems willing to do to the body politic. Just like former FBI Director James Comey and too many other Washington officials, the special counsel’s office appears to be leaking everything except evidence of collusion. If Mr. Mueller somehow manages to demonstrate that the 2016 Trump campaign really did cooperate with Russia to rig the election then of course it will all be worth it. But news of his expanding investigation suggests that Mr. Mueller doesn’t think he can—and has instead focused on simply searching for anything detrimental to Mr. Trump. It’s possible Mr. Mueller is running a tight ship and that various accounts of his expanding investigation are either false or based on sources who are actually not that familiar with his investigation. But let’s assume for the moment that, for example, Bloomberg’s story, “Mueller Expands Probe to Trump Business Transactions,” is accurate. The news service reports: ... ... Why would a counterintelligence investigation focused on potential foreign influence on last year’s election be examining the details of a 2008 real estate transaction? One reasonable conclusion is that Mr. Mueller’s team has quickly decided that they don’t have a lot of hot leads from 2016. Also, if Mr. Mueller and his associates actually did discover proof that Team Trump colluded with the Russians to rig the 2016 election, would any further evidence be required? Focusing on some of the particulars, it seems that if one wanted a well-known beauty pageant to be staged in the exotic locale of Moscow and to feature one’s Russian pop-star son as it was broadcast on a large American television network, one probably would expect to write a fairly large check. As for the real-estate transaction, there may be important facts that haven’t been made public, but selling to a Russian oligarch didn’t make Mr. Trump unique in his industry. In fact, it might have been more odd if Donald Trump had been an American developer of luxury real estate who did not do business with Russians. A Journal story in 2008 noted that the Trump sale to Mr. Rybolovlev was part of a larger trend: Show nested quote +As many of America’s wealthy are roiled by the credit crisis and general financial gloom, a growing number of rich Russians are house-shopping -- and buying -- in costly U.S. enclaves... Several years ago, the weakening dollar began to draw more overseas buyers but Russians were scarce. Now, Russia’s economy is booming amid soaring energy prices. Moscow real estate is among the world’s costliest, making property elsewhere a relative bargain. In New York City, foreign buyers now make up about 15% of the market, with Russians the largest contingent, says Hall Willkie, president of real-estate firm Brown Harris Stevens. “A few years ago we didn’t see any Russians,” Mr. Willkie says. “But now, especially at the high end of the market they are buying big apartments...so they are a significant factor.” What should happen now? In June, National Review’s incomparable Andrew McCarthy offered some good advice for the Deputy Attorney General: Rosenstein should issue a directive superseding his original appointment of Mueller in order to more tightly and appropriately define Mueller’s jurisdiction. The new directive should describe, in writing, the potential crimes that have been uncovered in the Russia investigation. There is no need to name names of suspects — the Justice Department should always resist that, even if the names would be obvious to people who’ve been following the public reporting. But it should be made clear that the special-counsel appointment is not a fishing expedition on the pretext of a sprawling counterintelligence probe. If criminal conduct has been discovered, it should be spelled out. “Trump campaign collusion with Russia,” aside from being unsupported by any public evidence, is not a crime. If there is to be a special counsel, the public, the Congress, the president, the Justice Department, and the special counsel himself must all know what crimes are being investigated. This would not bar Mueller from good-faith pursuit of investigative leads that are within this narrower mandate. In the superseding order, [Mr. Rosenstein] should provide that Mueller may seek an expansion of his jurisdiction if he finds evidence of other potential crimes — i.e., real violations of federal law that are grist for prosecution, not intriguing relationships that can be spun into conspiracy theories. Rosenstein should make clear, though, that a) Mueller must explain (in writing, to Rosenstein) what additional crimes he wishes to investigate, and b) such an investigation may not go forward unless and until Rosenstein issues a new written directive, exactingly describing Mueller’s expanded jurisdiction — and explaining why the Justice Department is so conflicted that Mueller, rather than DOJ, should conduct the investigation. In the absence of any evidence of a crime, no American—not even Donald Trump—deserves to be the subject of an investigation without limit. WSJ
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'But Chalupa' is the lamest false equivalency play and will rapidly bite the Republicans in the ass. She left the DNC and did this on her own because she loved Ukraine and didn't trust Manafort. Her blogging ended up sinking Manafort because Manafort really was crooked and up to his ass in dirty Russian money. If you put her under oath, all the Manafort-Yanukovich-Russia ties and money will all get aired again.
Further, any attacks on Chalupa will merely focus the media's attention on just what happened at the Agalarov summit. The media loves two sides to every coin stories and will only dig in deeper. The problem is that you have Manafort/DonJR/Kushner meeting the Agalarov crew at Trump tower with Trump in the building, whereas Chalupa leaves the DNC and gets Manafort sunk on her own. Every bit of factual information that comes out here will hurt DJT.
EDIT: just want to emphasize, "but Dems did something", buys you 1 media cycle of deflection with your partisans, but lands you in 5 media cycles of analysis on what the Reps did.
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On July 26 2017 03:03 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 01:08 Gorsameth wrote:On July 26 2017 00:36 Danglars wrote:On July 26 2017 00:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 26 2017 00:03 Danglars wrote:On July 25 2017 23:30 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 25 2017 23:17 Gorsameth wrote:On July 25 2017 23:04 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 25 2017 21:34 Plansix wrote: I'm confused by the article's premise, am I supposed to take the republicans seriously on Russia? No.... The republicans controlled congress for 6 year, didn't this also happen on their watch? What if the real answer is that winner takes all, win by any means necessary style politics is harmful to the nation as a whole? Congress doesn't do much foreign policy. The President has enormous powers to shape foreign policy according to his will. Unlike domestic policy, where he can't even technically propose legislation. But US presidential candidates spend the vast majority of their time discussing domestic policy, with very little attention paid to foreign policy, because most Americans can't find Afghanistan on a map, after we've been at war there for 17 years. My point is that Obama has no one but himself to blame for his own foreign policy failures. Most of them were caused by Obama making decisions in foreign affairs on the primary basis of what would play best to his audience back home, not on the basis of what would have the best long-term impact on the world. (for evidence of this, see Ben Rhodes's profile in the NYT.) Obama could have taken the Russian threat seriously at any point during his presidency. He chose not to because that would have damaged his domestic political narrative of a successful "reset" with the Russians. Keep in mind, the "reset" came months after Russia invaded Georgia. As the article I linked pointed out, the passage of the Magnitsky Act was opposed by Democrats, because additional sanctions on Russia for its horrible actions undermined the Official Narrative that the misspelled "reset" had worked. So instead Obama only woke up to join the fight at the 11th hour, when a greatly emboldened Russia began dramatically meddling in US domestic politics to the detriment of the Democratic party. Do I blame Obama for not taking the Russians seriously for a very long time, despite ample warnings, particularly after 2014? Absolutely. The current outcry from the Democrat party over the Russia scandal does have validity, because it is a huge freaking scandal. That being said, I am somewhat cynical concerning the motivations of Democratic politicians. "For their current criticisms of the Trump administration to carry water, liberals will have to do more than simply apologize for regurgitating Obama’s insult that Republicans are retrograde Cold Warriors. They will have to renounce pretty much the entire Obama foreign policy legacy, which both underestimated and appeased Russia at every turn. Otherwise, their grave intonations about 'active measures,' 'kompromat' and other Soviet-era phenomena will continue sounding opportunistic, and their protestations about Trump being a Russian stooge will continue to have the appearance of being motivated solely by partisan politics." That is some damn impressive re-writing of history there. Obama's Russian reset? Are you for real? Last I checked Russia was hurting under economic sanctions put on by the EU and US under Obama. One side complains that the US is hurtling headlong into a new war with Russia while the other complains they were not hard enough, right up to the point where they themselves got in charge and then they were best friends with Russia all along... What do you think Obama should have done more? Should he have declared war? Should he have made sweeping moves to economically isolate Russia after the election so that everyone would complain he was 'abusing' his power like they already did? Because he can't do that before the crime is actually committed. What do you think the Democrats did not do enough of? Clearly nobody is actually, oh I don't know, READING the article I linked before commenting on it extensively. Today’s liberal Russia hawks would have us believe that they’ve always been clear-sighted about Kremlin perfidy and mischief. They’re displaying amnesia not just over a single law but the entire foreign policy record of the Obama administration. From the reset, which it announced in early 2009 just months after Russia invaded Georgia, to its removal of missile defense systems in the Czech Republic and Poland later that year, to its ignoring Russia’s violations of the 1987 Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (while simultaneously negotiating New START) and its ceding the ground in Syria to Russian military intervention, the Obama administration’s Russia policy was one, protracted, eight-year-long concession to Moscow. Throughout his two terms in office, Obama played down the threat Russia posed to America’s allies, interests and values, and ridiculed those who warned otherwise. “The traditional divisions between nations of the south and the north make no sense in an interconnected world nor do alignments of nations rooted in the cleavages of a long-gone Cold War,” Obama lectured the United Nations General Assembly in 2009, a more florid and verbose way of making the exact same criticism of supposed NATO obsolescence that liberals would later excoriate Trump for bluntly declaring. That's what I blame Obama for, helping get us into this mess. I'm not equating Obama to Trump, despite what reactionary partisan leftists here seem to think for no apparent reason. And why would that even matter. No matter the mountain upon mountain of 'stuff' you think he should have done. None of it excuses the actions of the Republicans today. I never said that. The article I quoted never said that. This is a total strawman. Its the stupid notion that you cant criticize the fact that the President and his closest associates are in proven collusion with a foreign state that you yourself deem dangerous because they haven't kneeled before god and confessed their heinous crimes of not launching ww3 and ending the world in nuclear fire.
More strawmanning... You might even conclude the "none of this excuses the actions of Republicans today" and "you can't criticize the fact that the President ..." means debaters are unwilling to shine a harsh light on Obama administration foreign policy and priorities. You must obviously be only examining his Russian action/inaction in light of wanting to excuse Trump and the GOP today ... lol. Expect only a tepid one-line "don't worry fellas, I also blame Obama/Dems," when going on to detail all the ways Republicans share the blame and how the real story is the extent to which they dodged the blame or shared culpability. It's all pretty transparent. US Reactive Partisanship Megathread. You can discuss Obama's foreign policy in isolation just fine, and this thread has done so plenty. The problem arise with opening sentences of "We can't take the Democrats seriously on Russia because Obama". You're intentionally misreading his point. You can't own up to past policy failures and it's only recently become highly apparent to everyone. The thread's response basically confirmed the article's point: you still can't examine Obama's past mistakes critically without dithering, equivocating, and trying to put it all on Trump (your double strawman response). I disagree sharply with TheLordOfAwesome on the import of Trump-Russia. You'd be foolish to ignore a bigger Trump critic than myself because you can't summarize his argument honestly. Alright, lets talk about Obama without talking about Trump. Where did he go wrong with Russia, what should he have done differently and what sort of effect do you imaging it would have had? You're getting closer. I basically agree with the author's perspective, but maybe that link got lost for you back in the previous pages, so I'll refresh it here. Show nested quote +Democrats are exasperated that Republicans don’t share their outrage over the ever-widening scandal surrounding Donald Trump and Russia. The president’s personal solicitousness toward Vladimir Putin, the alacrity of his son in welcoming potential assistance from Russians during the 2016 campaign, and mounting questions as to whether Trump associates colluded with Russia as part of its influence operation against Hillary Clinton are leading Democrats to speak of impeachment and even treason.
As a longtime Russia hawk who has spent most of the past decade covering Kremlin influence operations across the West, I share their exasperation. Over the past year, I have authored pieces with headlines like “How Putin plays Trump like a piano,” “How Trump got his party to love Russia,” and, most recently in this space, “How the GOP became the party of Putin.” As I see it, conservatives’ nonchalance about Russia’s attempt to disrupt and discredit our democracy ranks as one of the most appalling developments in recent American political history.
But as much as Democrats may be correct in their diagnosis of Republican debasement, they are wholly lacking in self-awareness as to their own record regarding Russia. This helps explain why conservatives have so much trouble taking liberal outrage about Russia seriously: Most of the people lecturing them for being “Putin’s pawns” spent the better part of the past eight years blindly supporting a Democratic president, Barack Obama, whose default mode with Moscow was fecklessness. To Republicans, these latter-day Democratic Cold Warriors sound like partisan hysterics, a perception that’s not entirely wrong.
Consider the latest installment of the unfolding Trump-Russia saga: Donald Trump Jr.’s meeting last summer with a Russian lawyer promising dirt on Clinton. Before inexplicably publicizing his own email correspondence, which revealed him eager to accept information that would allegedly “incriminate” his father’s opponent, Trump Jr. claimed the confab concerned nothing more salacious than the issue of “adoption.” Democrats have rightly pointed out that this was a ruse: When the Russian government or its agents talk about international adoption, they’re really talking about the Magnitsky Act, a 2012 measure sanctioning Russian human rights abusers named after a Russian lawyer tortured to death after exposing a massive tax fraud scheme perpetrated by government officials. The law’s passage so infuriated Putin that he capriciously and cruelly retaliated by banning American adoption of Russian orphans. Five years after its enactment, the law continues to rankle Russia’s president. According to Trump himself, it was the ostensibly innocuous issue of “adoption” that Putin raised with him during a previously undisclosed dinner conversation at the G-20 summit in Hamburg earlier this month.
Yet for all the newfound righteous indignation in defense of the Magnitsky Act being expressed by former Obama officials and supporters, it wasn’t long ago that they tried to prevent its passage, fearing the measure would hamper their precious “reset” with Moscow. In 2012, as part of this effort, the Obama administration lobbied for repeal of the Jackson-Vanik amendment, a Cold War-era law tying enhanced trade relations with Russia to its human rights record. Some voices on Capitol Hill proposed replacing Jackson-Vanik with Magnitsky, a move the administration vociferously opposed. Shortly after his appointment as ambassador to Moscow, Michael McFaul (today one of the most widely cited critics on the subject of Trump and Russia) publicly stated that the Magnitsky Act would be “redundant” and that the administration specifically disagreed with its naming and shaming Russian human rights abusers as well as its imposition of financial sanctions. McFaul even invoked the beleaguered Russian opposition, which he said agreed with the administration’s position.
This was a mischaracterization of Russian civil society, the most prominent leaders of which supported repeal of Jackson-Vanik only on the express condition it be superseded by the Magnitsky Act. “Allowing [Jackson-Vanik] to disappear with nothing in its place … turns it into little more than a gift to Mr. Putin,” Russian dissidents Garry Kasparov and Boris Nemtsov wrote for the Wall Street Journal days after McFaul’s remarks. (Nemtsov, one of Putin’s loudest and most visible critics, was assassinated in 2015 just a few hundred meters from the Kremlin walls). Anti-corruption activist Alexei Navalny, meanwhile, wrote that while he supported repealing Jackson-Vanik, “no doubt the majority of Russian citizens will be happy to see the U.S. Senate deny the most abusive and corrupt Russian officials the right of entry and participation in financial transactions in the U.S., which is the essence of the Magnitsky Bill.”
Nevertheless, the Obama administration not only persisted in opposing Magnitsky, but continued to claim that it had the support of the Russian opposition in this endeavor. “Leaders of Russia's political opposition,” then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton wrote in an op-ed for The Wall Street Journal, “have called on the U.S. to terminate Jackson-Vanik, despite their concerns about human rights and the Magnitsky case.” Despite administration protestations, Congress passed the Magnitsky Act and Obama reluctantly signed it into law. Reflecting on the legislative battle two years later, Bill Browder, the London-based investor for whom Magnitsky worked and the driving force behind the bill, told Foreign Policy, “The administration, starting with Hillary Clinton and then John Kerry, did everything they could do to stop the Magnitsky Act.”
Today’s liberal Russia hawks would have us believe that they’ve always been clear-sighted about Kremlin perfidy and mischief. They’re displaying amnesia not just over a single law but the entire foreign policy record of the Obama administration. From the reset, which it announced in early 2009 just months after Russia invaded Georgia, to its removal of missile defense systems in the Czech Republic and Poland later that year, to its ignoring Russia’s violations of the 1987 Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (while simultaneously negotiating New START) and its ceding the ground in Syria to Russian military intervention, the Obama administration’s Russia policy was one, protracted, eight-year-long concession to Moscow. Throughout his two terms in office, Obama played down the threat Russia posed to America’s allies, interests and values, and ridiculed those who warned otherwise. “The traditional divisions between nations of the south and the north make no sense in an interconnected world nor do alignments of nations rooted in the cleavages of a long-gone Cold War,” Obama lectured the United Nations General Assembly in 2009, a more florid and verbose way of making the exact same criticism of supposed NATO obsolescence that liberals would later excoriate Trump for bluntly declaring.
When it abandoned missile defense installations in Poland and the Czech Republic that same year—announcing the decision on the anniversary of the Soviet Union’s invasion of Poland, no less—the Obama administration insisted that the move wasn’t about kowtowing to Moscow but rather more robustly preparing for the looming Iranian threat. Notwithstanding the merits of that argument, perception matters in foreign policy, and the perception in Central and Eastern Europe was that America was abandoning its friends in order to satiate an adversary. That characterizes the feelings of many American allies during the Obama years, whether Israelis and Sunni Arabs upset about a perceived tilt to Iran, or Japanese concerned about unwillingness to confront a revisionist China. Liberals are absolutely right to criticize the Trump administration for its alienation of allies. But they seem to have forgotten the record of the man who served as president for the eight years prior.
Three years later, in the midst of what he thought was a private conversation about arms control with then-Russian President Dmitri Medvedev, Obama was famously caught on an open microphone promising that he would have “more flexibility” (that is, be able to make even more concessions to Moscow) after the presidential election that fall. (Imagine the uproar if Trump had a similar hot mic moment with Putin.) Later that year, after Mitt Romney suggested Russia was America’s “No. 1 geopolitical foe,” Obama ridiculed his Republican challenger. “The 1980s are now calling and they want their foreign policy back,” Obama retorted, in a line that has come back to haunt Democrats. An entire procession of Democratic politicians, foreign policy hands and sympathetic journalists followed Obama’s lead and repeated the critique. According to soon-to-be secretary of state John Kerry, Romney’s warning about Russia was a “preposterous notion.” His predecessor Madeleine Albright said Romney possessed “little understanding of what is actually going on in the 21st century.”
This wasn’t merely a debate talking point. Downplaying both the nature and degree of the Russian menace constituted a major component of mainstream liberal foreign policy doctrine until about a year ago—that is, when it became clear that Russia was intervening in the American presidential race against a Democrat. It provided justification for Obama’s humiliating acceptance in 2013 of Russia’s cynical offer to help remove Syrian chemical weapons after he failed to endorse his own “red line” against their deployment. Not only did that deal fail to ensure the complete removal of Bashar Assad’s stockpiles (as evidenced by the regime’s repeated use of such weapons long after they were supposedly eliminated), it essentially opened the door to Russian military intervention two years later.
Even after Putin annexed Crimea in 2014, the first violent seizure of territory on the European continent since World War II, Obama continued to understate the severity of the Russian threat. Just a few weeks after the annexation was formalized, asked by a reporter if Romney’s 2012 statement had been proven correct, Obama stubbornly dismissed Russia as “a regional power that is threatening some of its immediate neighbors not out of strength but out of weakness.” Truly. Russia is such a “regional power” that it reached across the Atlantic Ocean and intervened in the American presidential election, carrying out what Democrats today rightly claim was the most successful influence operation in history. “It is the hardest thing about my entire time in government to defend,” a senior Obama official, speaking of the administration’s halfhearted response to Russia’s intrusion, told the Washington Post. “I feel like we sort of choked.”
Yet rarely in the course of accusing Trump of being a Kremlin agent have liberals—least of all the president they so admire—reflected upon their hypocrisy and apologized to Romney, whose prescience about Russia, had he been elected in 2012, may very well have dissuaded Putin from doing what he did on Obama’s watch. In Obama, Putin rightly saw a weak and indecisive leader and wagered that applying the sort of tactics Russia uses in its post-imperial backyard to America’s democratic process would be worth the effort. The most we’ve seen in the way of atonement are Clinton’s former campaign spokesman Brian Fallon admitting on Twitter, “We Dems erred in ’12 by mocking” Romney, and Obama speechwriter Jon Favreau sheepishly conceding, with a chuckle, “we were a little off.” If Obama feels any regret, maybe he’s saving it for the memoir.
But even if liberals do eventually show a modicum of humility and acknowledge just how catastrophically wrong they were about Romney, this would not sufficiently prove their seriousness about Russia. For their current criticisms of the Trump administration to carry water, liberals will have to do more than simply apologize for regurgitating Obama’s insult that Republicans are retrograde Cold Warriors. They will have to renounce pretty much the entire Obama foreign policy legacy, which both underestimated and appeased Russia at every turn. Otherwise, their grave intonations about “active measures,” “kompromat” and other Soviet-era phenomena will continue sounding opportunistic, and their protestations about Trump being a Russian stooge will continue to have the appearance of being motivated solely by partisan politics.
For now, the newfangled Democratic hawkishness on Russia seems motivated almost entirely, if not solely, by anger over the (erroneous) belief that Putin cost Clinton the election—not over the Kremlin’s aggression toward its neighbors, its intervention on behalf of Assad in Syria, its cheating on the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Force Treaty, or countless other malfeasances. Most Democrats were willing to let Russia get away with these things when Obama was telling the world that “alignments of nations rooted in the cleavages of a long-gone Cold War” are obsolete, or that Russia was a mere “regional power” whose involvement in Syria would lead to another Afghanistan, or when he was trying to win Russian help for his signal foreign policy achievement, the Iran nuclear deal. If the Democrats’ newfound antagonism toward the Kremlin extended beyond mere partisanship, they would have protested most of Obama’s foreign policy, which acceded to Russian prerogatives at nearly every turn. As the former George W. Bush speechwriter Matt Latimer cleverly imagined in these pages, had Trump ran for president and won with the assistance of Russia but as a Democrat instead of a Republican, it’s not difficult to imagine Democrats being just as cynical and opportunistic in their dismissal of the Russia scandal as Republicans are today. How could he have done differently? Stand firm on Magnitsky. Tell the truth (don't lie) about the Russian opposition to bolster them. Stay firm on missile defense systems no matter how hard he asks. Call attention to Russia's violations of arms treaties. Hold your ground on whatever limited role you see the USA playing in Syria (or stay out altogether). Stand firm on NATO (Don't preview the Trump administration's future policy of downplaying NATO's role against Russian aggression) Stand firm on not granting concessions based on political considerations. So, will you read the quoted article with bolded emphasis to tell me which of the article's points you agree or disagree with? Secondly, will you admit that the far sighted Russia hawk or dove has much more credibility to criticize in the Trump era (See last two sentences)? I'm more than willing to engage with someone that reads with understanding and responds substantively, because we might move on to current events and agree on Trump's indifference to Russian aggression. I've repeatedly said he's a man with authoritarian tendencies that is too forgiving of other authoritarians and behaves in a naive manner.
The author's point that Democrats should address Obama's FP with respect to Russia in order to be genuine on the Trump/Russia investigation is silly; the election related hacking was so in your face and egregious that it is the prevalent topic of discussion now, has multiple current investigations including FBI and Congressional, etc. Democrats are rightly outraged for reasons that are plain for all to see. If Democrats were wrong on some past issues with Russia, that could be, but it's not a valid reason to discount Democrats' present outrage with the Trump/Russia FBI/DOJ investigation.
See how I incorporated the author's thesis into my argument, and then *shock* disagreed with the author?
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I like how the author accuses Mueller of leaking things, but provides literally zero evidence of him doing so. Because trying to prove Mueller is responsible for the leaks would uncut the entire narrative he is trying to create.
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there is no coherent strategy here. it's literally throw shit out, hope the media interprets some sort of pattern to the smears on the wall.
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On July 26 2017 03:35 Plansix wrote: I like how the author accuses Mueller of leaking things, but provides literally zero evidence of him doing so. Because trying to prove Mueller is responsible for the leaks would uncut the entire narrative he is trying to create.
Yeah that was very odd to accuse Mueller's team of leaking and overreaching. Rosenstein's directive very broadly authorizes what Mueller is doing as far as Trump's finances etc.
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Trump is angling to fire Mueller and is having his most loyal media partisans prep the field (Newt, WSJ guys, Mooch, Hannity, Hewitt). But the problem is that Trump needs the cover of elected R's before he goes after Mueller. But then we have DJT+Mooch turning on Sessions. Elected R's love Sessions and fear that whatever happens to Sessions could happen to them. If DJT were smarter he would be kissing Session's ass as Sessions is the pathway to fireway Mueller. Instead we have DJT listening to Mooch and purging his staff of core RNC/Republican/Priebus types and blaming Sessions for Mueller's investigation. Anyone who thinks this guy is playing 12D chess is confused. DJT is just flailing and shitting on any cucks who were dumb enough to trust him.
EDIT Erick Erickson's inside report on the cabinet level clusterfuck is great. http://theresurgent.com/cabinet-level-revolt-over-trumps-treatment-of-jeff-sessions/?utm_content=buffer9a849&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
EDIT per below: Yeah, WSJ is heterogeneous. You will see a Trumpkin come in and spin for firing Mueller, but larger board could go different way. But I think the trend will lean towards the Trumpkin line.
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This from Comey's testimony to Congress. It would seem that investigators pursue all leads that may come up, no matter if it's an unrelated crime or not.
BURR: Director, is it possible that, as part of this FBI investigation, the FBI could find evidence of criminality that is not tied to — to the 2016 elections — possible collusion or coordination with Russians?
COMEY: Sure.
BURR: So there could be something that just fits a criminal aspect to this that doesn’t have anything to do with the 2016 election cycle?
COMEY: Correct. In any complex investigation, when you start turning over rocks, sometimes you find things that are unrelated to the primary investigation, that are criminal in nature.
www.nytimes.com
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On July 26 2017 03:45 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 03:35 Plansix wrote: I like how the author accuses Mueller of leaking things, but provides literally zero evidence of him doing so. Because trying to prove Mueller is responsible for the leaks would uncut the entire narrative he is trying to create. Yeah that was very odd to accuse Mueller's team of leaking and overreaching. Rosenstein's directive very broadly authorizes what Mueller is doing as far as Trump's finances etc. To further that argument, this isn’t an investigation without limits. It is limited by the Justice Department, like all FBI investigations. The author’s claim that Trump is being subjected to some sort of abuse of power doesn’t add up, since Trump holds the most powerful office in the country.
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On July 26 2017 03:53 Doodsmack wrote:This from Comey's testimony to Congress. It would seem that investigators pursue all leads that may come up, no matter if it's an unrelated crime or not. Show nested quote +BURR: Director, is it possible that, as part of this FBI investigation, the FBI could find evidence of criminality that is not tied to — to the 2016 elections — possible collusion or coordination with Russians?
COMEY: Sure.
BURR: So there could be something that just fits a criminal aspect to this that doesn’t have anything to do with the 2016 election cycle?
COMEY: Correct. In any complex investigation, when you start turning over rocks, sometimes you find things that are unrelated to the primary investigation, that are criminal in nature.
www.nytimes.com And the right-wing story lately is that it's unfair if they uncover other illegal activities since they should only be looking at Russia? What a joke.
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On July 26 2017 03:53 Doodsmack wrote:This from Comey's testimony to Congress. It would seem that investigators pursue all leads that may come up, no matter if it's an unrelated crime or not. Show nested quote +BURR: Director, is it possible that, as part of this FBI investigation, the FBI could find evidence of criminality that is not tied to — to the 2016 elections — possible collusion or coordination with Russians?
COMEY: Sure.
BURR: So there could be something that just fits a criminal aspect to this that doesn’t have anything to do with the 2016 election cycle?
COMEY: Correct. In any complex investigation, when you start turning over rocks, sometimes you find things that are unrelated to the primary investigation, that are criminal in nature.
www.nytimes.com
Of course this is why DJT is so desperate to fire Mueller. Even the most cursory investigation of any Trump dealings would reveal basic fraud and criminality. Check out every last one of his previous business deals. He always rips someone off and defaults on the contract. The problem here is we know the Russians did the hacks, and we have Russians placed in Trump tower. The investigation has all the probable cause it needs to look into every last shady Trump deal because the big bad link might be lying under there.
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I'm personally a big fan of the fact the author can't see how a 2008 real estate deal in a foreign country worked on by key members of the campaign can be relevant to investigating whether someone's campaign may have been coerced or compelled into cooperating with said foreign country.
It's literally as obvious as wanting to know if it was illegal and potentially blackmail material worth millions of dollars.
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Vote currently going on to allow debate on healthcare bill.
Dems going No, Mcain back and voted yes
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It's 50-50, Pence will break the tie and oepn the debate
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On July 26 2017 03:59 TheTenthDoc wrote: I'm personally a big fan of the fact the author can't see how a 2008 real estate deal in a foreign country worked on by key members of the campaign can be relevant to investigating whether someone's campaign may have been coerced or compelled into cooperating with said foreign country.
It's literally as obvious as wanting to know if it was illegal and potentially blackmail material worth millions of dollars.
Tone down the Ukraine language in the RNC platform or else we will leak that your Son, Son-in-Law, and Campaign manager met our agents seeking dirt on HRC from us. Also, deny any and all activities by us or else we blab about your contacts with our agents. -Putin
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On July 26 2017 03:51 Wulfey_LA wrote: Trump is angling to fire Mueller and is having his most loyal media partisans prep the field (Newt, WSJ guys, Mooch, Hannity, Hewitt). But the problem is that Trump needs the cover of elected R's before he goes after Mueller. But then we have DJT+Mooch turning on Sessions. Elected R's love Sessions and fear that whatever happens to Sessions could happen to them. If DJT were smarter he would be kissing Session's ass as Sessions is the pathway to fireway Mueller. Instead we have DJT listening to Mooch and purging his staff of core RNC/Republican/Priebus types and blaming Sessions for Mueller's investigation. Anyone who thinks this guy is playing 12D chess is confused. DJT is just flailing and shitting on any cucks who were dumb enough to trust him. I don't know if I'd call the WSJ one of "Trump's most loyal media partisans." They've been walking a very Paul Ryan-esque line since he's been elected. They throw out red meat editorials from named authors to keep the Fox News crowd subscribed to their paper, but their in-house editorials have been critical of Trump's approach to just about everything. They share some common goals with Trump, but they aren't like Breitbart or Fox News where they're essentially one in the same as Trump. Their main market isn't Trump/Bannon populists really.
Long story short, I don't think the WSJ is going to vouch for Trump firing Mueller. I think I've even read an editorial there telling him not to do it (could be wrong).
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On July 26 2017 04:03 Nevuk wrote: It's 50-50, Pence will break the tie and oepn the debate
and thus, GoFundMe becomes the largest health insurance provider the country has to offer
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On July 26 2017 04:04 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 04:03 Nevuk wrote: It's 50-50, Pence will break the tie and oepn the debate and thus, GoFundMe becomes the largest health insurance provider the country has to offer
well now they have to get an actual bill to vote on and get amendments passed
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They haven't repealed anything yet. This just guarantees we will get a vote on some Senate bill. Doesn't make the Republican plans any less catastrophic. Frankly a repeal, or whatever abomination they think up, passing is the best thing that could happen to Democrats politically. Though a lot of people will suffer.
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