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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
January 21 2014 23:38 GMT
#16121
Yeesh; we should just keep some prosecutors full-time just to continually investigate our legislatures/governors, there's enough corruption to support full-timers doing that.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-22 00:12:46
January 22 2014 00:12 GMT
#16122
unskilled labor like walmart or mcdonalds is more or less a big labor pool, since each worker is largely indistinguishable. it's not the best market to be making teh monopsony claim

rather, capital in general has power leverage over the laborer because the laborer must work in order to live, and the reserve wage is essentially not tied to productivity.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 22 2014 00:13 GMT
#16123
W.Va. Gov. Earl Ray Tomblin addressed ongoing concerns in parts of his state on Monday, telling residents "it's your decision" to use the water or not.

"If you do not feel comfortable drinking or cooking in this water, then use bottled water," Tomblin said at a news conference in Charleston. "I'm not going to say absolutely, 100 percent that everything is safe. But what I can say is if you do not feel comfortable, don't use it."

West Virginia American Water Co. customers and residents living near the Elk River remained wary of the water over the weekend as the licorice-like smell of 4-methylcyclohexane methanol lingered.

7,500 gallons of the chemical, used to process coal, spilled into the Elk River on Jan. 9, prompting a prohibition on using tap water that affected around 300,000 West Virginians. Restrictions on using tap water were lifted for most of the affected residents by Friday.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
January 22 2014 00:14 GMT
#16124
What a leader.

*golf clap*
Writer
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
January 22 2014 00:15 GMT
#16125
listen to how platitudinal he speaks: "if you do not feel comfortable, don't use it". well thanks for granting me that right, jackass.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
January 22 2014 00:16 GMT
#16126
I'd love to be plaintiff's lawyer in that case. That company is gonna get fucked.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
January 22 2014 00:26 GMT
#16127
groundwater contamination should be like a federal crime or something
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
January 22 2014 00:30 GMT
#16128
Or some form of criminal negligence/reckless endangerment.
On what basis would it be a federal rather than state crime? It does seem like there's some potential there, but i'm wondering what you were thinking of specifically (if anything)
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
SnipedSoul
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada2158 Posts
January 22 2014 00:52 GMT
#16129
On January 22 2014 09:16 xDaunt wrote:
I'd love to be plaintiff's lawyer in that case. That company is gonna get fucked.


I thought they already declared bankruptcy.

I have no idea how it works, though.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
January 22 2014 01:08 GMT
#16130
On January 22 2014 09:30 zlefin wrote:
Or some form of criminal negligence/reckless endangerment.
On what basis would it be a federal rather than state crime? It does seem like there's some potential there, but i'm wondering what you were thinking of specifically (if anything)

bodies of water etc usually traverse state lines
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
January 22 2014 01:29 GMT
#16131
On January 22 2014 09:52 SnipedSoul wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2014 09:16 xDaunt wrote:
I'd love to be plaintiff's lawyer in that case. That company is gonna get fucked.


I thought they already declared bankruptcy.

I have no idea how it works, though.

Looks like they already filed a Chapter 11 bankruptcy petition. The subject company is a wholly-owned subsidiary of a larger enterprise. I doubt that the bankruptcy court will allow that to continue as part of the restructuring. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if some enterprising lawyer tries to pierce the corporate veil and sticking the larger company company with the bill for the spill.

Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
January 22 2014 01:32 GMT
#16132
On January 22 2014 10:29 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2014 09:52 SnipedSoul wrote:
On January 22 2014 09:16 xDaunt wrote:
I'd love to be plaintiff's lawyer in that case. That company is gonna get fucked.


I thought they already declared bankruptcy.

I have no idea how it works, though.

Looks like they already filed a Chapter 11 bankruptcy petition. The subject company is a wholly-owned subsidiary of a larger enterprise. I doubt that the bankruptcy court will allow that to continue as part of the restructuring. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if some enterprising lawyer tries to pierce the corporate veil and sticking the larger company company with the bill for the spill.


Good luck with piercing that veil. I think some enterprising politician could ride his way into the state house though considering the weak kneed response by the governor.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
January 22 2014 01:36 GMT
#16133
On January 22 2014 10:32 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2014 10:29 xDaunt wrote:
On January 22 2014 09:52 SnipedSoul wrote:
On January 22 2014 09:16 xDaunt wrote:
I'd love to be plaintiff's lawyer in that case. That company is gonna get fucked.


I thought they already declared bankruptcy.

I have no idea how it works, though.

Looks like they already filed a Chapter 11 bankruptcy petition. The subject company is a wholly-owned subsidiary of a larger enterprise. I doubt that the bankruptcy court will allow that to continue as part of the restructuring. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if some enterprising lawyer tries to pierce the corporate veil and sticking the larger company company with the bill for the spill.


Good luck with piercing that veil. I think some enterprising politician could ride his way into the state house though considering the weak kneed response by the governor.

The standard is tough, but it is doable given the right circumstances (I've done it). The trustee that's appointed will have access to everything that he needs to determine whether it's feasible.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
January 22 2014 01:49 GMT
#16134
I would be genuinely shocked that a corp this large would have such incompetent counsel that it gets pieced. Like, it would literally be a thing that would then be put into law school text books alongside those old asbestos cases they have in there now.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-22 01:57:42
January 22 2014 01:52 GMT
#16135
On January 22 2014 10:49 Sub40APM wrote:
I would be genuinely shocked that a corp this large would have such incompetent counsel that it gets pieced. Like, it would literally be a thing that would then be put into law school text books alongside those old asbestos cases they have in there now.

This may or may not shock you, but the actions and advice of corporate counsel often facilitate and lead to the very circumstances that result in piercing. Lawyers advise their clients to do stupid and fraudulent things all of the time.

Edit: As just an example, in one of the cases where I was able to pierce the corporate veil, one of the most damning facts that I got during a deposition of one of the executives was the admission that his attorney facilitated frauds against creditors. Whoops. And this wasn't some schlub attorney. This was a big name attorney from a prominent national firm.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-22 02:15:58
January 22 2014 02:14 GMT
#16136
On January 22 2014 10:52 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2014 10:49 Sub40APM wrote:
I would be genuinely shocked that a corp this large would have such incompetent counsel that it gets pieced. Like, it would literally be a thing that would then be put into law school text books alongside those old asbestos cases they have in there now.

This may or may not shock you, but the actions and advice of corporate counsel often facilitate and lead to the very circumstances that result in piercing. Lawyers advise their clients to do stupid and fraudulent things all of the time.

Edit: As just an example, in one of the cases where I was able to pierce the corporate veil, one of the most damning facts that I got during a deposition of one of the executives was the admission that his attorney facilitated frauds against creditors. Whoops. And this wasn't some schlub attorney. This was a big name attorney from a prominent national firm.

Well, I used to be more shocked about that but its amazing how much dumb stuff lawyers put into emails. So its not even 'he told me to do this so we did' its just right there. I swear if I could figure out how to monetize some kind of protection against hubris induced retardation Id be a billionaire but, "we keep you from doing retarded shit that will hurt you later down the line" doesnt roll off your tongue though...and obviously undermines the whole point of hiring an expensive lawyer.

But ya, in your example, we are talking about outright fraud. So I dont know, I would be really surprised if plaintiffs attorneys can find someone who says 'yes we knew this would be a crime and we did it anyway' but if they do, yes, the veil might get pieced. Still from what I remember in law school like I said, the most 'recent' cases they had were the big asbestos cases and even in those some of them the piercing was slapped down on appeal so *shrug* i just internalized that piercing the veil is probably one of the toughest standards there is in modern american law.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2014/01/chemistry-experiments-west-virginia-dont-try-home/
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 22 2014 02:34 GMT
#16137
Rep. Justin Amash (R-MI) on Tuesday called on Michigan Republican National Committeeman Dave Agema to resign following controversy surrounding anti-gay and anti-Muslim comments Agema made online and in speeches, according to ABC 13.

Agema in April compared being gay to alcoholism on his Facebook page and claimed in a December speech that gay people desire medical insurance because they have AIDS.

In January, Agema posted a comment to his Facebook page asking, "Have you ever seen a Muslim do anything that contributes positively to the American way of life?"

Amash condemned Agema's "approach," calling it a "distraction" for a party yearning to broaden its appeal to minority voters.

"Defending civil liberties is at the heart of the Republican Party and our Constitution. As I've demonstrated with my words and record, I am trying to grow a new generation of Republicans that includes more gays and lesbians, racial-ethnic minorities, women, and young people," Amash said in a statement.

"Dave's approach has become a distraction for those of us who are standing up to the political establishment, whose push for bigger government, more corporate welfare, and less individual liberty have hurt our party. I hope Dave will do the right thing for the next generation of conservatives and step down. And I hope that the politicians who are criticizing Dave will stand with me in protecting civil liberties with their votes and actions, not just their rhetoric."


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8777 Posts
January 22 2014 03:28 GMT
#16138
On January 22 2014 10:29 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2014 09:52 SnipedSoul wrote:
On January 22 2014 09:16 xDaunt wrote:
I'd love to be plaintiff's lawyer in that case. That company is gonna get fucked.


I thought they already declared bankruptcy.

I have no idea how it works, though.

Looks like they already filed a Chapter 11 bankruptcy petition. The subject company is a wholly-owned subsidiary of a larger enterprise. I doubt that the bankruptcy court will allow that to continue as part of the restructuring. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if some enterprising lawyer tries to pierce the corporate veil and sticking the larger company company with the bill for the spill.



One can only hope... That's absolutely unacceptable otherwise. An on top of that you got a governor who adds insult to injury by saying stupid shit.
fawns over the new helipad's rave reviews.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-22 08:05:36
January 22 2014 07:52 GMT
#16139
On January 22 2014 09:12 oneofthem wrote:
unskilled labor like walmart or mcdonalds is more or less a big labor pool, since each worker is largely indistinguishable. it's not the best market to be making teh monopsony claim

rather, capital in general has power leverage over the laborer because the laborer must work in order to live, and the reserve wage is essentially not tied to productivity.

It is exactly because unskilled labor is more or less a big labor pool that it is close to a monopsony. A monopole is when there is a huge demand facing a lone offer, by contrast a monopsony is a huge offer facing a unique demand. In the situation of the labor market, the demand of labor refers to the firms asking for people to work for them - Wal Mart or Mc Donald. In this situation, they are so big that they are almost alone, facing a big pool of unskilled labor.
My claim does not comes out of thin air, it has been discussed since some years now, mainly since David Card & Alan Krueger's paper on the effect of minimum wage on the fast food industry (where an increase in minimum wage in a state had a positive result on employment, paper here).

Your point of view, on capital in general, is absolutly true, but that's just another perspective on the matter (a more intelligent perspective at that, because that's marxist).

Danglars, I don't understand why you are so eager to defend Wal-Mart. I thought real free marketists saw both the state and big firms as the enemy of the market, both trying hard to destroy competition.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
January 22 2014 08:56 GMT
#16140
On January 22 2014 16:52 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2014 09:12 oneofthem wrote:
unskilled labor like walmart or mcdonalds is more or less a big labor pool, since each worker is largely indistinguishable. it's not the best market to be making teh monopsony claim

rather, capital in general has power leverage over the laborer because the laborer must work in order to live, and the reserve wage is essentially not tied to productivity.

It is exactly because unskilled labor is more or less a big labor pool that it is close to a monopsony. A monopole is when there is a huge demand facing a lone offer, by contrast a monopsony is a huge offer facing a unique demand. In the situation of the labor market, the demand of labor refers to the firms asking for people to work for them - Wal Mart or Mc Donald. In this situation, they are so big that they are almost alone, facing a big pool of unskilled labor.
My claim does not comes out of thin air, it has been discussed since some years now, mainly since David Card & Alan Krueger's paper on the effect of minimum wage on the fast food industry (where an increase in minimum wage in a state had a positive result on employment, paper here).

Your point of view, on capital in general, is absolutly true, but that's just another perspective on the matter (a more intelligent perspective at that, because that's marxist).

Danglars, I don't understand why you are so eager to defend Wal-Mart. I thought real free marketists saw both the state and big firms as the enemy of the market, both trying hard to destroy competition.
Big firms have one mark against them in the free market mindset: In the world where the government is willing to manipulate the winners and losers in business, there is extensive pressure to lobby the government to protect their interests and hurt their competitors. One such process is putting onerous regulators that no small/midsize business can keep up with. Another is certain slyly crafted anti-competition or price-setting laws. Big business that cozies up to government (nowadays called Crony Capitalism) or forms collectives in the industry to hurt the consumer or markets (parts of which are included in what is sometimes called corporatism).

Walmart can deliver cheap products to needy families and individuals. I personally have been helped by having a wide assortment available close by that has helped me meet my budget and fill needs. It's really not the size that matters to me. It's the state intervention, crony capitalism, and aspects of corporatism that matter to me. The phrase "too big to fail" is anathema in my book.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
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