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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
July 09 2017 17:27 GMT
#160781
On July 10 2017 00:45 a_flayer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2017 00:41 Doodsmack wrote:
The stupidity of this agreement really begs for an explanation.


What do you mean? It's kind of like getting someone from Citigroup or Goldman Sachs to run the US Treasury. You get an expert in the field who knows exactly what's up, with no ulterior motives.


Hopefully sarcasm lol
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
July 09 2017 17:33 GMT
#160782
It's funny, after hearing Trump's "does the West have the will to survive" speech, to hear his voters talking about identity politics. Ban ALL the Muslims? Deport ALL the illegals? There's something going on with Obama and terrorism? Obama's birth certificate is a fraud? This is jokeworthy.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-09 17:40:51
July 09 2017 17:39 GMT
#160783
I didn't look up the tweet before this one, because it literally is not worth the brain cells required to read it. He's embarrassing.

ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3304 Posts
July 09 2017 17:45 GMT
#160784
On July 10 2017 01:07 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2017 00:57 ChristianS wrote:
Is the concept of multiple sufficient causes really still beyond people? Here's 3 points. Does anyone disagree with any of these three?

1) Hillary lost the election.
2) It was really close.
3) We don't really know how much sexism is out there or how much it affected people's votes.

If these three points are granted it's just plain dumb to boldly proclaim "sexism didn't cost her the election" or "it wasn't that she was a woman, it was x y z." It's entirely possible that in a hypothetical universe where sexism wasn't present she would have won. That doesn't mean your x y z wouldn't have made the difference too, but if you're responding to Kwark's comment, it's not crazy to think that the dems would have a better chance with an old white guy.

You could make the exact same argument for Russia, or Comey, or deplorables, or whatever the fuck else you want. The bottom line is this: it should not have been close, it should have been a blowout. Based on the relative policy positions Hillary was definitely better positioned to win. Given Trump's temperament and qualifications or lack thereof, he should have lost by at least a 5 percent margin. But it's not the tiny little things that caused her to be vulnerable - it's the large scale scumminess that opened the door to a mildly different kind of scum.

Doesn't sound like we disagree, although are you counting sexism among the "tiny little things"?
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
July 09 2017 17:47 GMT
#160785
On July 10 2017 02:45 ChristianS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2017 01:07 LegalLord wrote:
On July 10 2017 00:57 ChristianS wrote:
Is the concept of multiple sufficient causes really still beyond people? Here's 3 points. Does anyone disagree with any of these three?

1) Hillary lost the election.
2) It was really close.
3) We don't really know how much sexism is out there or how much it affected people's votes.

If these three points are granted it's just plain dumb to boldly proclaim "sexism didn't cost her the election" or "it wasn't that she was a woman, it was x y z." It's entirely possible that in a hypothetical universe where sexism wasn't present she would have won. That doesn't mean your x y z wouldn't have made the difference too, but if you're responding to Kwark's comment, it's not crazy to think that the dems would have a better chance with an old white guy.

You could make the exact same argument for Russia, or Comey, or deplorables, or whatever the fuck else you want. The bottom line is this: it should not have been close, it should have been a blowout. Based on the relative policy positions Hillary was definitely better positioned to win. Given Trump's temperament and qualifications or lack thereof, he should have lost by at least a 5 percent margin. But it's not the tiny little things that caused her to be vulnerable - it's the large scale scumminess that opened the door to a mildly different kind of scum.

Doesn't sound like we disagree, although are you counting sexism among the "tiny little things"?

Definitely not tiny overall, but to the extent that it tipped the election? I would quite confidently call it small fry.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3304 Posts
July 09 2017 17:55 GMT
#160786
Anything you can offer for how you came to that conclusion? I'm unaware of any decent methodology for estimating either the prevalence of sexism or the degree to which it affects someone's vote. How do you know it isn't both prevalent and highly predictive of someone's 2016 vote?
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44440 Posts
July 09 2017 17:56 GMT
#160787
The marginalized portion of middle America that the Democrats are struggling with view anyone but a "normal" President as the liberal elites trying to shove their progressive anti white male agenda down everyone's throats. The narrative matters, whether it's dumb or not. It's this weird reverse assumption of privilege, if a candidate who looks exactly like they expect a President to look like is pushed then clearly he must have earned it, whereas if a candidate who had to overcome some kind of societal discrimination through exceptional merit is pushed then clearly what is going on is that they don't really deserve it and are getting special treatment.

Can't reason with these folks.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
July 09 2017 18:08 GMT
#160788
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
July 09 2017 19:52 GMT
#160789
Handing out foreign aid are we now? How much did Saudi Arabia donate to this fund again?

President Trump announced Saturday that the United States will pledge $50 million to a new World Bank initiative which his daughter Ivanka has helped to spearhead and will take a leading advocacy role going forward.

In applauding his daughter’s work in the creation of the new fund, which will aim to help women entrepreneurs in developing nations gain access to capital and connect them with mentors, the president suggested that his daughter’s life would be easier if not for him.


www.yahoo.com
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-09 20:10:40
July 09 2017 20:09 GMT
#160790
So Saudi Arabia cares about women in entrepreneurship? Good for them, that's very generous of them to contribute to such a project.

Or are we playing the "pin endless vaguely suspicious things on Trump" again?
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
RealityIsKing
Profile Joined August 2016
613 Posts
July 09 2017 20:19 GMT
#160791
On July 10 2017 05:09 LegalLord wrote:
So Saudi Arabia cares about women in entrepreneurship? Good for them, that's very generous of them to contribute to such a project.

Or are we playing the "pin endless vaguely suspicious things on Trump" again?


I think "we" are playing the "pin endless vaguely suspicious things on Trump" again.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44440 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-09 21:01:32
July 09 2017 20:21 GMT
#160792
On July 10 2017 05:09 LegalLord wrote:
So Saudi Arabia cares about women in entrepreneurship? Good for them, that's very generous of them to contribute to such a project

Sure, sounds super plausible. No idea why anyone would think this is anything but Saudi Arabia showing their longstanding commitment to increasing the access of woman to public life. Anyone who thinks otherwise is clearly being silly, there is nothing unusual about Saudi Arabia donating to organizations that help women become independent members of the business community.

Not that I think they bought anything specific with that donation, but I don't think it's a stretch to imagine this was something more than a demonstration of Saudi Arabia's enduring commitment to women's rights. If anything I think the inverse is more true, that it's a stretch to suggest this donation was legitimate.

It's like if Putin made a big donation to the Treatment Center for Journalists with Radiation Sickness. Sure, it's good that he's doing that, but it's not exactly fitting with his established pattern of behaviour so maybe it's not what it seems.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
July 09 2017 20:39 GMT
#160793
On July 10 2017 05:09 LegalLord wrote:
So Saudi Arabia cares about women in entrepreneurship? Good for them, that's very generous of them to contribute to such a project.

Or are we playing the "pin endless vaguely suspicious things on Trump" again?


Yeah and the timing was just a total coincidence.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-09 20:41:38
July 09 2017 20:39 GMT
#160794
On July 10 2017 01:41 zlefin wrote:
and legal is back to harping on clinton falsely yet again; can't you just let it go legal?
clinton may have come up organically in the thread, but what you're doing is just bringing up the same ol' false spiel over and over, and it's very unhelpful and incredibly tiresome, and brings nothing new to the thread; all you do is force people to rehash the same old arguments over and over.


The funny thing is that each time the arguments come back up the pro-Hillary arguments get more and more ridiculous sounding.

Like remember that time Hillary's role/view on the coup in Honduras was totally debunked here? Oh that's right, that never happened. You just say things like that when you can't make the argument yourself or people have wholly dismissed what they see as a foolish interpretation (that you accept as gospel).

On July 10 2017 02:56 KwarK wrote:
The marginalized portion of middle America that the Democrats are struggling with view anyone but a "normal" President as the liberal elites trying to shove their progressive anti white male agenda down everyone's throats. The narrative matters, whether it's dumb or not. It's this weird reverse assumption of privilege, if a candidate who looks exactly like they expect a President to look like is pushed then clearly he must have earned it, whereas if a candidate who had to overcome some kind of societal discrimination through exceptional merit is pushed then clearly what is going on is that they don't really deserve it and are getting special treatment.

Can't reason with these folks.


And yet the Democrats strategy is to try to win them over by balancing more racism with their brand of identity-politic. Democrats will fail in 2018 and 2020 if they don't pull their heads out.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
July 09 2017 20:40 GMT
#160795
President Trump’s eldest son, Donald Trump Jr., was promised damaging information about Hillary Clinton before agreeing to meet with a Kremlin-connected Russian lawyer during the 2016 campaign, according to three advisers to the White House briefed on the meeting and two others with knowledge of it.

The meeting was also attended by his campaign chairman at the time, Paul J. Manafort, and his son-in-law, Jared Kushner. Mr. Manafort and Mr. Kushner only recently disclosed the meeting, though not its content, in confidential government documents described to The New York Times.

...

In a statement on Sunday, Donald Trump Jr. said he had met with the Russian lawyer at the request of an acquaintance. “After pleasantries were exchanged,” he said, “the woman stated that she had information that individuals connected to Russia were funding the Democratic National Committee and supporting Ms. Clinton. Her statements were vague, ambiguous and made no sense. No details or supporting information was provided or even offered. It quickly became clear that she had no meaningful information.”

He said she then turned the conversation to adoption of Russian children and the Magnitsky Act, an American law that blacklists suspected Russian human rights abusers. The law so enraged Mr. Putin that he retaliated by halting American adoptions of Russian children.

“It became clear to me that this was the true agenda all along and that the claims of potentially helpful information were a pretext for the meeting.” Mr. Trump said.

When he was first asked about the meeting on Saturday, he said only that it was primarily about adoptions and mentioned nothing about Mrs. Clinton.


www.nytimes.com
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44440 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-09 21:12:02
July 09 2017 21:09 GMT
#160796
On July 10 2017 05:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2017 02:56 KwarK wrote:
The marginalized portion of middle America that the Democrats are struggling with view anyone but a "normal" President as the liberal elites trying to shove their progressive anti white male agenda down everyone's throats. The narrative matters, whether it's dumb or not. It's this weird reverse assumption of privilege, if a candidate who looks exactly like they expect a President to look like is pushed then clearly he must have earned it, whereas if a candidate who had to overcome some kind of societal discrimination through exceptional merit is pushed then clearly what is going on is that they don't really deserve it and are getting special treatment.

Can't reason with these folks.


And yet the Democrats strategy is to try to win them over by balancing more racism with their brand of identity-politic. Democrats will fail in 2018 and 2020 if they don't pull their heads out.

It is? You're the one pushing for them to go further into their circular progressive echo chamber and marginalize the idiots even further. I'm the one saying that they tried to do too much too fast and that a lot of the country needs to be led at the pace of their stupidest member with constant reinforcement that they're okay and that their place in society isn't being threatened.

In 2020 the Democrats need to think of what Michelle Obama as a candidate would look like, and then get whoever is the furthest from that they can find. 8 years of a black President has already pushed a lot of America out of their comfort zone, they need to be reassured that white male privilege isn't going anywhere anytime soon and that they're still basically on top. Trump's success is an example of that, Trump proves that no matter how incompetent, unqualified and generally vile an individual is, if he's born white, male and rich then the world is his oyster. Modern America is becoming an increasingly scary place for a lot of folks these days, what with women wearing pink hats and uppity negr Urban Americans filming cops. The Democrats have let their brand become associated with all that scary change, they need to do more to show that they're not interested in upsetting the racist patriarchy.

The problem isn't too much identity politics, it's that they didn't pander to the right group.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
July 09 2017 21:22 GMT
#160797
On July 10 2017 06:09 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2017 05:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 10 2017 02:56 KwarK wrote:
The marginalized portion of middle America that the Democrats are struggling with view anyone but a "normal" President as the liberal elites trying to shove their progressive anti white male agenda down everyone's throats. The narrative matters, whether it's dumb or not. It's this weird reverse assumption of privilege, if a candidate who looks exactly like they expect a President to look like is pushed then clearly he must have earned it, whereas if a candidate who had to overcome some kind of societal discrimination through exceptional merit is pushed then clearly what is going on is that they don't really deserve it and are getting special treatment.

Can't reason with these folks.


And yet the Democrats strategy is to try to win them over by balancing more racism with their brand of identity-politic. Democrats will fail in 2018 and 2020 if they don't pull their heads out.

It is? You're the one pushing for them to go further into their circular progressive echo chamber and marginalize the idiots even further. I'm the one saying that they tried to do too much too fast and that a lot of the country needs to be led at the pace of their stupidest member with constant reinforcement that they're okay and that their place in society isn't being threatened.

In 2020 the Democrats need to think of what Michelle Obama as a candidate would look like, and then get whoever is the furthest from that they can find. 8 years of a black President has already pushed a lot of America out of their comfort zone, they need to be reassured that white male privilege isn't going anywhere anytime soon and that they're still basically on top. Trump's success is an example of that, Trump proves that no matter how incompetent, unqualified and generally vile an individual is, if he's born white, male and rich then the world is his oyster. Modern America is becoming an increasingly scary place for a lot of folks these days, what with women wearing pink hats and uppity negr Urban Americans filming cops. The Democrats have let their brand become associated with all that scary change, they need to do more to show that they're not interested in upsetting the racist patriarchy.

The problem isn't too much identity politics, it's that they didn't pander to the right group.


I'm not pushing them into the "progressive echo chamber", while I'd like them to agree with me more often, what I really think they should be pushing is stuff that's popular across the aisle and with folks who have noticed politicians don't give a shit about them and their vote.

Our system has just done a great job of convincing people moving towards a global center represents a drastic shift to communism.

The plan you're describing sounds like what they want to do and will fail spectacularly. Basically "we're for stopping the systemically racially abusive system, we just have to empathize more with the racist people desperate to perpetuate that systemic racism. Convince them they are safe from the collapse of the systemic racism they've become dependent on".

No, that's dumb. What they should be doing is appealing to the people who figured out they were shit by being less shit. But again, "have you seen the other guys" is what they are going with.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44440 Posts
July 09 2017 21:32 GMT
#160798
The reality is that a lot of progressive change is a zero sum game. Whether it's real benefits they're losing, such as the ability to own someone else and benefit from their labour, de facto benefits they're losing, such as being overrepresented politically by denying the franchise to others, or just symbolic benefits, such as sitting at the front of the bus, what is being given to some Americans is being taken from others.

No getting around that. If folks in Alabama start allowing black people to vote then the political power of each white voter will be diminished through dilution. Whether it's right or not isn't important when you need to get people to vote for it, it's a tough sell.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
July 09 2017 21:41 GMT
#160799
On July 10 2017 06:32 KwarK wrote:
The reality is that a lot of progressive change is a zero sum game. Whether it's real benefits they're losing, such as the ability to own someone else and benefit from their labour, de facto benefits they're losing, such as being overrepresented politically by denying the franchise to others, or just symbolic benefits, such as sitting at the front of the bus, what is being given to some Americans is being taken from others.

No getting around that. If folks in Alabama start allowing black people to vote then the political power of each white voter will be diminished through dilution. Whether it's right or not isn't important when you need to get people to vote for it, it's a tough sell.


If there was a racist politician in Alabama pushing for getting money out of politics, single payer (or gov option), and "free" preK-14, I think they could win regardless of what letter they put next to their name, so long as they had the support of one of the parties apparatuses.

It's not just that they are going after Republican voters instead of Democratic voters or non-voters, it's also that they are doing a bad job of it. It's not all their fault though, their problem in part is that the policy their donors want them to support (or not support) aren't the ones they can win an election with.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-09 21:57:02
July 09 2017 21:52 GMT
#160800
On July 10 2017 06:32 KwarK wrote:
The reality is that a lot of progressive change is a zero sum game. Whether it's real benefits they're losing, such as the ability to own someone else and benefit from their labour, de facto benefits they're losing, such as being overrepresented politically by denying the franchise to others, or just symbolic benefits, such as sitting at the front of the bus, what is being given to some Americans is being taken from others.

No getting around that. If folks in Alabama start allowing black people to vote then the political power of each white voter will be diminished through dilution. Whether it's right or not isn't important when you need to get people to vote for it, it's a tough sell.

Counter point: if you don't let them vote, they still live in the state and can riot. The longer a demographic is disenfranchised, the less they have to lose. If people don't want to live under the constant threat of that, letting black people vote is a small price to pay.

But you are correct that it is a hard sell to the local people and government. This is why the Federal government was given the role through the voter's rights act. Leaving it in the hands of the states will result in voter suppression and other civil rights violations. If the democrats want to win, they need to learn to pander white men again while also combating racism. I don't envy the task.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
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