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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
July 10 2017 04:09 GMT
#160821
Americans adopting Russian children has been trouble for a long time. The effect of that one woman who returned an adopted child was probably the biggest single event that turned people against American adoptions.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
9077 Posts
July 10 2017 04:14 GMT
#160822
It's sad that gross incompetence isn't an impeachable offense. This is just...sad that we as Americans continue to allow this to happen. I feel that all Republicans should be brought up on charges of treason at times for allowing this farce to continue.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
July 10 2017 04:19 GMT
#160823
If Republicans were to be impeached for allowing this farce to continue, Democrats would have little cover under which to allow their own farce to continue. Face it, both sides are remarkably scummy.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
9077 Posts
July 10 2017 04:21 GMT
#160824
On July 10 2017 13:19 LegalLord wrote:
If Republicans were to be impeached for allowing this farce to continue, Democrats would have little cover under which to allow their own farce to continue. Face it, both sides are remarkably scummy.

Republicans hold the majority as this happens. I would welcome Dems to get it too, mind you. It's just that Republicans seem to have no incentive to end this until constituents demand it. Then they'll flip quicker than an Olympic gymnast.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
July 10 2017 04:37 GMT
#160825
Whoops.

More than half of the memos former FBI chief James Comey wrote as personal recollections of his conversations with President Trump about the Russia investigation have been determined to contain classified information, according to interviews with officials familiar with the documents.

This revelation raises the possibility that Comey broke his own agency’s rules and ignored the same security protocol that he publicly criticized Hillary Clinton for in the waning days of the 2016 presidential election.

Comey testified last month he considered the memos to be personal documents and that he shared at least one of them with a Columbia University lawyer friend. He asked that lawyer to leak information from one memo to the news media in hopes of increasing pressure to get a special prosecutor named in the Russia case after Comey was fired as FBI director.

“So you didn’t consider your memo or your sense of that conversation to be a government document?,” Sen. Roy Blunt (R-Mo.) asked Comey on June 8. “You considered it to be, somehow, your own personal document that you could share to the media as you wanted through a friend?”
“Correct,” Comey answered. “I understood this to be my recollection recorded of my conversation with the president. As a private citizen, I thought it important to get it out.”

Comey insisted in his testimony he believed his personal memos were unclassified, though he hinted one or two documents he created might have been contained classified information.

“I immediately prepared an unclassified memo of the conversation about Flynn and discussed the matter with FBI senior leadership,” he testified about the one memo he later leaked about former national security adviser Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn.

He added, “My view was that the content of those unclassified, memorialization of those conversations was my recollection recorded.”

But when the seven memos Comey wrote regarding his nine conversations with Trump about Russia earlier this year were shown to Congress in recent days, the FBI claimed all were, in fact, deemed to be government documents.

While the Comey memos have been previously reported, this is the first time there has been a number connected to the amount of the memos the ex-FBI chief wrote.

Four of the memos had markings making clear they contained information classified at the “secret” or “confidential” level, according to officials directly familiar with the matter.

A spokesman for the FBI on Sunday declined to comment.


Source.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 10 2017 04:44 GMT
#160826
Is that new information? He testified that some of the memos had classified information in them and he only leaked the one to the professor.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
thePunGun
Profile Blog Joined January 2016
598 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-10 05:47:36
July 10 2017 05:31 GMT
#160827
On July 10 2017 13:19 LegalLord wrote:
If Republicans were to be impeached for allowing this farce to continue, Democrats would have little cover under which to allow their own farce to continue. Face it, both sides are remarkably scummy.

"Wait what?! Scummy politicians??! Stop the presses, we got a good one folks!"
Well guess who put them in power...we did...
aaand...guess who's incapable of electing a decent government..we are...
Because we're all scum and we get what we deserve. Might sound a little harsh, but that's what the truth is...hurtful and nasty.

Democracy didn't work in ancient Greece and it's not working now, because it's run by idiots, who get put in power by idiots!
Socrates knew that 2400 years ago and that's what got him killed....
"Knowledge is power, because it eludes the simple minded." His student Plato once said, truer words have never been spoken.
But I think George Carlin put it best: "Garbage in, garbage out/The public sucks, f**k hope."

User was warned for this post
"You cannot teach a man anything, you can only help him find it within himself."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
July 10 2017 05:34 GMT
#160828
On July 10 2017 13:44 Plansix wrote:
Is that new information? He testified that some of the memos had classified information in them and he only leaked the one to the professor.

The issue is the creation of the memos with confidential information without properly marking them as confidential/classified. The stink here is that Comey was being clumsy with classified info like Hillary was.
Amui
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada10567 Posts
July 10 2017 07:27 GMT
#160829
On July 10 2017 14:34 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2017 13:44 Plansix wrote:
Is that new information? He testified that some of the memos had classified information in them and he only leaked the one to the professor.

The issue is the creation of the memos with confidential information without properly marking them as confidential/classified. The stink here is that Comey was being clumsy with classified info like Hillary was.

I feel like being clumsy on the administrative side isn't quite as severe as the distribution side. These files were stored in a secure location, probably only accessible by a very select few people(who would already have necessary clearances).

Certainly an oversight on his part, but I don't think it's a particularly important topic given that he was the FBI director at time of creation for those memo's.
Porouscloud - NA LoL
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
July 10 2017 08:17 GMT
#160830
On July 10 2017 09:30 Wulfey_LA wrote:
On Mueller, wait for the truth and the evidence to come out. Mueller has the best 15 prosecutors on the east coast on his team. Whatever they find, they will publicize and the American people will make their decision. Actual prosecution of Trump himself is exceedingly unlikely ... but boy the guys down the ladder taking money (Manafort,Flynn,Page) and/or the guys lying under oath/forms (Kushner,Sessions) are in some serious trouble.


I sincerely doubt anyone Trump likes has anything to worry about. He'll just pardon them and it will be like it never happened. Maybe if they dig around hard enough they can get someone on something that he can't pardon, but I doubt it.

But Trump's fickle and he may throw some of those guys under the bus and just deny, deny, deny. Kushner is definitely safe though.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany12080 Posts
July 10 2017 08:21 GMT
#160831
Wait, wait, i got it.

So Trump can classify and declassify information in any way he wants, right?

Why doesn't he just classify anything related to Trump and russians as "Top Secret / President", so that only the president can see it. Thus, anyone sharing any of that information with anyone is then obviously the real problem, not whatever Trump did that that information talks about.

It is really sad to see the republicans in this thread bend and bend to find any angle that does not make their wonderful president look bad.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-10 10:49:27
July 10 2017 10:48 GMT
#160832


"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
RoxieChan
Profile Joined July 2017
3 Posts
July 10 2017 11:00 GMT
#160833
Why do so many care about this? There is no basis in reality that Trump colluded with the Russians. Several high ranking DNC affiliates have admitted to this, several figures and publishers within the Media have admitted to this, and several of his highest critics have also admitted to just tacking on whatever they think it will stick.

Did the Russians interfere with the elections? Most certainly. I'm surprised so many Americans are surprised of this. If you want some reference, check out all the other elections that are interfered on: Fucking all of them. That's the thing, unless you actually change votes(which they certainly did not do) then ANYTHING can be seen as interference. But no other country bitches as much as America does, it seems.

France had their largest party receiving direct backing and money from Russia. If that happened with Trump? There would be hell to pay.(not to mention that Hillary directly received aid through Saudi Arabia.. But thats besides the point)

Look there have been hundreds of investigators looking through this, millions of eyes staring at it, and untold number of bloggers getting trigger-happy at the mere mention of Trump. Don't you think it would be more.. Productive to go about addressing other issues? Because he isn't leaving. You could find his entire cabinet to be in collusion with Russia, he would be as clean as a whistle. It is time for democrats to move on and start fighting battles that they can actually win, and that are actually important.. Like elections, maybe? They've lost 4 special elections already (out of five, which did not have a Republican running in it..)
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 10 2017 11:20 GMT
#160834
On July 10 2017 20:00 RoxieChan wrote:
Why do so many care about this? There is no basis in reality that Trump colluded with the Russians. Several high ranking DNC affiliates have admitted to this, several figures and publishers within the Media have admitted to this, and several of his highest critics have also admitted to just tacking on whatever they think it will stick.

The FBI and special investigators do not stop investigating just because the media and a few members of the DNC said something. And as long there is an investigation into the president and his close aid/family, it will be news.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Aquanim
Profile Joined November 2012
Australia2849 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-10 11:29:21
July 10 2017 11:27 GMT
#160835
On July 10 2017 20:00 RoxieChan wrote:...It is time for democrats to move on and start fighting battles that they can actually win, and that are actually important.. Like elections, maybe? They've lost 4 special elections already (out of five, which did not have a Republican running in it..)

How many of those elections were practically winnable, demographically speaking?

Assuming they come up with something constructive eventually I don't see how running a small-target strategy is particularly bad for the Democrats at the moment. Trying to put positive ideas into the news seems like a waste of time at this point in the electoral cycle - losing a couple of special elections is pretty small fry.

In the meantime spraying mud which may or may not be deserved on one's political opponents (and having some of it stick, whether it was accurate or not) is a time-honoured political strategy. Unfortunately.

(To emphasise, if the Democrats haven't come up with something constructive by midterms, and a viable candidate by 2020, then my opinion changes - but the fact that they haven't got one three years out seems pretty unremarkable, historically speaking.)
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18876 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-10 11:35:31
July 10 2017 11:34 GMT
#160836
Not a single one of those special elections offered Dems much of an opportunity, and while politicians would always be well advised to focus on policy and/or issues instead of negative press, there isn't much Democrats can do on the national stage outside fight this inter-party battle. State Dems, on the other hand, are active as hell, at least round my neck of the woods. Michigan, for example, already has two pretty good Dem candidates for governor who are already making their rounds.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany12080 Posts
July 10 2017 11:46 GMT
#160837
On July 10 2017 20:27 Aquanim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2017 20:00 RoxieChan wrote:...It is time for democrats to move on and start fighting battles that they can actually win, and that are actually important.. Like elections, maybe? They've lost 4 special elections already (out of five, which did not have a Republican running in it..)

How many of those elections were practically winnable, demographically speaking?

Assuming they come up with something constructive eventually I don't see how running a small-target strategy is particularly bad for the Democrats at the moment. Trying to put positive ideas into the news seems like a waste of time at this point in the electoral cycle - losing a couple of special elections is pretty small fry.

In the meantime spraying mud which may or may not be deserved on one's political opponents (and having some of it stick, whether it was accurate or not) is a time-honoured political strategy. Unfortunately.

(To emphasise, if the Democrats haven't come up with something constructive by midterms, and a viable candidate by 2020, then my opinion changes - but the fact that they haven't got one three years out seems pretty unremarkable, historically speaking.)


Yes. The sad fact is that in a two-party system, spraying mud at the other guy seems to work pretty well. The US proves this very well. Even if nothing ever sticks, you still have the the lingering air of doubt around the opponent that is there forever, because there were so many "scandals".

You don't have to look good yourself, you just need to make the other guy look bad, because then there is no alternative. Even if throwing mud makes you look half as bad as the guy you are throwing mud at, it is still a relative victory for you.

That being said, i am not convinced that the whole trump russia thing is actually a nothing. It is kind of pointless to constantly bring it up, i am willing to wait for muellers results here.
Adreme
Profile Joined June 2011
United States5574 Posts
July 10 2017 11:50 GMT
#160838
On July 10 2017 14:34 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2017 13:44 Plansix wrote:
Is that new information? He testified that some of the memos had classified information in them and he only leaked the one to the professor.

The issue is the creation of the memos with confidential information without properly marking them as confidential/classified. The stink here is that Comey was being clumsy with classified info like Hillary was.


So the issue is he didnt mark stuff properly? Could there be a more bureaucratic nonsense issue. If he did not leak the ones with classified info then the whole thing is nothing. No one is going to care whether he gave the form the proper data entry letters.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22703 Posts
July 10 2017 11:53 GMT
#160839
There may well be nothing on the "Russian" thing and I think none of it will lead directly to Trump, let alone end in impeachment.
But the fact that so many below or around Trump are connected to Russia makes it hard for me to say that there is nothing going on.

It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22703 Posts
July 10 2017 11:56 GMT
#160840
On July 10 2017 20:50 Adreme wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2017 14:34 xDaunt wrote:
On July 10 2017 13:44 Plansix wrote:
Is that new information? He testified that some of the memos had classified information in them and he only leaked the one to the professor.

The issue is the creation of the memos with confidential information without properly marking them as confidential/classified. The stink here is that Comey was being clumsy with classified info like Hillary was.


So the issue is he didnt mark stuff properly? Could there be a more bureaucratic nonsense issue. If he did not leak the ones with classified info then the whole thing is nothing. No one is going to care whether he gave the form the proper data entry letters.

Considering Comey was praised for constructing his public memos in such a way to avoid classification during the Senate hearing, and that he confirmed during that hearing that some that he did not have published were confidential (because they were about confidential meetings) I'm going to assume this is a total non-starter until something better comes out then "some of them were classified! even tho he totally told us this".
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
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