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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
January 20 2014 00:29 GMT
#16021
Rules for equal coverage by employers remain elusive under health law

The Obama administration is delaying enforcement of another provision of the new health care law, one that prohibits employers from providing better health benefits to top executives than to other employees.

Tax officials said they would not enforce the provision this year because they had yet to issue regulations for employers to follow.

The Affordable Care Act, adopted nearly four years ago, says employer-sponsored health plans must not discriminate "in favor of highly compensated individuals" with respect to either eligibility or benefits. The government provides a substantial tax break for employer-sponsored insurance, and, as a matter of equity and fairness, lawmakers said employers should not provide more generous coverage to a select group of high-paid employees.

But translating that goal into reality has proved difficult. ...

Link

Anyone out there keeping track of all the changes / delays?
itsjustatank
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Hong Kong9183 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-20 01:04:09
January 20 2014 00:56 GMT
#16022
On January 20 2014 08:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think this thread is very good. Sure if you have a degree in political science and have for years been paying attention to politics while actively debating stuff and expanding your political vocabulary and observing high level academic discussions pertaining most important subjects visited by the thread then the discussions might take form at a lower level than what you would ideally participate in, but maybe you should then just accept that this is a gaming forum mostly hitting people in their late teens and twenties, with many Europeans with an interest in american politics but not necessarily with advanced understanding of american politics, and try to compare it to other discussion forums with a similar demographic.

And then you should realize that the function this thread has is not to thread new political ground creating resolutions to long-lasting political problems (because that would be impossible in this type of environment), but rather to function as a tool of expanding political knowledge for people who are interested, and to function as a training ground for forming coherent arguments. We're not discussing to convince the people we are discussing with, as most of us have made up our minds and then our brains somehow seem to function in a way that requires far more evidence to make us change our minds than for it to form the initial impression, rather we are discussing to convince those who enter this thread without already being world champion of politics.

Additionally you can always try to make it better by actually posting elaborate explanations for your point of view that might be understandable for the common plebs rather than asserting that the discussion is below your level while espousing tidbits of knowledge that indeed make it obvious that you know a lot but without you actually stating anything about what you believe. If we, the common thread-viewer is too ignorant, then please educate us. American politics is a field of interest of mine - but it's absolutely not something I consider myself an expert on. Pedagogics however kind of is, and I can tell you that none of the people complaining about the level of posting in this thread are doing a good job enlightening the ignorant.

I'll agree that perhaps I have too high of a standard for argumentative discourse as a result of education and experience, but I feel like we can all make an intersection between constructive posts that attempt to engage the topics of this thread and those who are posting in the same manner and what this thread has devolved into: political name-calling and other ad hominem attacks, assumption of bad faith (or worse, assumption of a fellow poster's core values or platform), and straight-up shitposting (with the posting of meme-style pictures being a primary example, as well as making extremely wild claims with the intent of causing a flame war being another).

I have generally avoided posting in this thread throughout my tenure here on Teamliquid precisely because I see way too much of those aforementioned negative behaviors exhibited. However, in the those precious few cases in which I have intervened here, I have always attempted to bring the thread away from boring, skill-less, and tired political gamesmanship between adherents of the two diametrically-opposed (but, in actuality, quite similar) 'sides' of the American political spectrum.

That I have been confronted with still more terrible posting in response is pretty disconcerting, but I do take your words to heart. I don't think everyone posting in this thread is bad. I also don't think this thread should be closed or not exist. I just wish people could stop being so asinine and close-minded to each other in it. A simple mindfulness of having and expecting a higher standard of posting in this thread should do a lot to raising its educative value. As it stands right now, however, it functions as a definite low point area on this site in which people pride themselves on racing to the bottom so long as they engage in masturbatory political point sniping while doing so.
Photographer"nosotros estamos backamos" - setsuko
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
January 20 2014 01:04 GMT
#16023
On January 20 2014 03:28 xDaunt wrote:
Just because a Supreme Court decision is 5-4, doesn't mean that it is any less "the law" than a decision that is 9-0. The Court does not reverse itself often.


Thanks for pointing this out xDaunt although I'm not sure what con/subtext you were picking up on that leads you to think that I'm arguing 5-4 decisions aren't law. In criticizing conservative arguments I'm certainly not trying to adopt their arguments that such decisions are unlawful or less legitimate. That would be absurd of me.

The argument that I've been trying to make is that this false dichotomy between textualist and activist judges is idiotic.
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-20 01:29:01
January 20 2014 01:22 GMT
#16024
On January 20 2014 09:56 itsjustatank wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2014 08:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think this thread is very good. Sure if you have a degree in political science and have for years been paying attention to politics while actively debating stuff and expanding your political vocabulary and observing high level academic discussions pertaining most important subjects visited by the thread then the discussions might take form at a lower level than what you would ideally participate in, but maybe you should then just accept that this is a gaming forum mostly hitting people in their late teens and twenties, with many Europeans with an interest in american politics but not necessarily with advanced understanding of american politics, and try to compare it to other discussion forums with a similar demographic.

And then you should realize that the function this thread has is not to thread new political ground creating resolutions to long-lasting political problems (because that would be impossible in this type of environment), but rather to function as a tool of expanding political knowledge for people who are interested, and to function as a training ground for forming coherent arguments. We're not discussing to convince the people we are discussing with, as most of us have made up our minds and then our brains somehow seem to function in a way that requires far more evidence to make us change our minds than for it to form the initial impression, rather we are discussing to convince those who enter this thread without already being world champion of politics.

Additionally you can always try to make it better by actually posting elaborate explanations for your point of view that might be understandable for the common plebs rather than asserting that the discussion is below your level while espousing tidbits of knowledge that indeed make it obvious that you know a lot but without you actually stating anything about what you believe. If we, the common thread-viewer is too ignorant, then please educate us. American politics is a field of interest of mine - but it's absolutely not something I consider myself an expert on. Pedagogics however kind of is, and I can tell you that none of the people complaining about the level of posting in this thread are doing a good job enlightening the ignorant.

I'll agree that perhaps I have too high of a standard for argumentative discourse as a result of education and experience, but I feel like we can all make an intersection between constructive posts that attempt to engage the topics of this thread and those who are posting in the same manner and what this thread has devolved into: political name-calling and other ad hominem attacks, assumption of bad faith (or worse, assumption of a fellow poster's core values or platform), and straight-up shitposting (with the posting of meme-style pictures being a primary example, as well as making extremely wild claims with the intent of causing a flame war being another).

I have generally avoided posting in this thread throughout my tenure here on Teamliquid precisely because I see way too much of those aforementioned negative behaviors exhibited. However, in the those precious few cases in which I have intervened here, I have always attempted to bring the thread away from boring, skill-less, and tired political gamesmanship between adherents of the two diametrically-opposed (but, in actuality, quite similar) 'sides' of the American political spectrum.

That I have been confronted with still more terrible posting in response is pretty disconcerting, but I do take your words to heart. I don't think everyone posting in this thread is bad. I also don't think this thread should be closed or not exist. I just wish people could stop being so asinine and close-minded to each other in it. A simple mindfulness of having and expecting a higher standard of posting in this thread should do a lot to raising its educative value. As it stands right now, however, it functions as a definite low point area on this site in which people pride themselves on racing to the bottom so long as they engage in masturbatory political point sniping while doing so.


This thread doesn't revolve around you. For all your complaining about other people's assumptions in this thread you seem to do the same thing. When I quoted your post in the last page I was responding to more than just you. Despite your offense when I lumped my response to you with my response to Introvert and others, a fair reading of my post only attributes to you the fact that you pasted a Scalia majority opinion at me, despite my clear familiarity with the case. I don't assume you are a gun-nut, I just assume you have missed the point and are irrelevant. For all your education and experience you don't seem capable of following the ebb and flow of a limited online discussion, but you blame the other posters for not being sophisticated enough. You can ride right out of here on your high pony and browse google news if you just want some sanitized news blurbs.

But my bad. I'll be more careful with my use of the second person.
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
itsjustatank
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Hong Kong9183 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-20 01:41:53
January 20 2014 01:30 GMT
#16025
On January 20 2014 10:22 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2014 09:56 itsjustatank wrote:
On January 20 2014 08:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think this thread is very good. Sure if you have a degree in political science and have for years been paying attention to politics while actively debating stuff and expanding your political vocabulary and observing high level academic discussions pertaining most important subjects visited by the thread then the discussions might take form at a lower level than what you would ideally participate in, but maybe you should then just accept that this is a gaming forum mostly hitting people in their late teens and twenties, with many Europeans with an interest in american politics but not necessarily with advanced understanding of american politics, and try to compare it to other discussion forums with a similar demographic.

And then you should realize that the function this thread has is not to thread new political ground creating resolutions to long-lasting political problems (because that would be impossible in this type of environment), but rather to function as a tool of expanding political knowledge for people who are interested, and to function as a training ground for forming coherent arguments. We're not discussing to convince the people we are discussing with, as most of us have made up our minds and then our brains somehow seem to function in a way that requires far more evidence to make us change our minds than for it to form the initial impression, rather we are discussing to convince those who enter this thread without already being world champion of politics.

Additionally you can always try to make it better by actually posting elaborate explanations for your point of view that might be understandable for the common plebs rather than asserting that the discussion is below your level while espousing tidbits of knowledge that indeed make it obvious that you know a lot but without you actually stating anything about what you believe. If we, the common thread-viewer is too ignorant, then please educate us. American politics is a field of interest of mine - but it's absolutely not something I consider myself an expert on. Pedagogics however kind of is, and I can tell you that none of the people complaining about the level of posting in this thread are doing a good job enlightening the ignorant.

I'll agree that perhaps I have too high of a standard for argumentative discourse as a result of education and experience, but I feel like we can all make an intersection between constructive posts that attempt to engage the topics of this thread and those who are posting in the same manner and what this thread has devolved into: political name-calling and other ad hominem attacks, assumption of bad faith (or worse, assumption of a fellow poster's core values or platform), and straight-up shitposting (with the posting of meme-style pictures being a primary example, as well as making extremely wild claims with the intent of causing a flame war being another).

I have generally avoided posting in this thread throughout my tenure here on Teamliquid precisely because I see way too much of those aforementioned negative behaviors exhibited. However, in the those precious few cases in which I have intervened here, I have always attempted to bring the thread away from boring, skill-less, and tired political gamesmanship between adherents of the two diametrically-opposed (but, in actuality, quite similar) 'sides' of the American political spectrum.

That I have been confronted with still more terrible posting in response is pretty disconcerting, but I do take your words to heart. I don't think everyone posting in this thread is bad. I also don't think this thread should be closed or not exist. I just wish people could stop being so asinine and close-minded to each other in it. A simple mindfulness of having and expecting a higher standard of posting in this thread should do a lot to raising its educative value. As it stands right now, however, it functions as a definite low point area on this site in which people pride themselves on racing to the bottom so long as they engage in masturbatory political point sniping while doing so.


This thread doesn't revolve around you. For all your complaining about other people's assumptions in this thread you seem to do the same thing. When I quoted your post in the last page I was responding to more than just you. Despite your offense when I lumped my response to you with my response to Introvert and others, a fair reading of my post only attributes to you the fact that you pasted a Scalia majority opinion at me, despite my clear familiarity with the case. I don't assume you are a gun-nut, I just assume you have missed the point and are irrelevant. For all your education and experience you don't seem capable of following the ebb and flow of a limited online discussion, but you blame the other posters for not being sophisticated enough. You can ride right out of here on your high pony and browse google news if you just want some sanitized news blurbs.


My post was a statement of fact, and of legal interpretation and jurisprudence as it currently is. It also on-point attacks your claim that English common law and its analysis from both modern and contemporary sources is irrelevant and extraneous to the proper formulation of legal opinions in the American judicial system. You just assumed I'm a strict constructionist in an attempt to respond.

Your entire post and advocacy is necessarily linked to your bad assumptions. Take that away and you are left with not much at all. None of the ways of interpreting the constitution are mutually exclusive from examining common law. Judges just see things differently, and that determines the majority.
Photographer"nosotros estamos backamos" - setsuko
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-20 01:50:53
January 20 2014 01:40 GMT
#16026
On January 20 2014 10:30 itsjustatank wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2014 10:22 IgnE wrote:
On January 20 2014 09:56 itsjustatank wrote:
On January 20 2014 08:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think this thread is very good. Sure if you have a degree in political science and have for years been paying attention to politics while actively debating stuff and expanding your political vocabulary and observing high level academic discussions pertaining most important subjects visited by the thread then the discussions might take form at a lower level than what you would ideally participate in, but maybe you should then just accept that this is a gaming forum mostly hitting people in their late teens and twenties, with many Europeans with an interest in american politics but not necessarily with advanced understanding of american politics, and try to compare it to other discussion forums with a similar demographic.

And then you should realize that the function this thread has is not to thread new political ground creating resolutions to long-lasting political problems (because that would be impossible in this type of environment), but rather to function as a tool of expanding political knowledge for people who are interested, and to function as a training ground for forming coherent arguments. We're not discussing to convince the people we are discussing with, as most of us have made up our minds and then our brains somehow seem to function in a way that requires far more evidence to make us change our minds than for it to form the initial impression, rather we are discussing to convince those who enter this thread without already being world champion of politics.

Additionally you can always try to make it better by actually posting elaborate explanations for your point of view that might be understandable for the common plebs rather than asserting that the discussion is below your level while espousing tidbits of knowledge that indeed make it obvious that you know a lot but without you actually stating anything about what you believe. If we, the common thread-viewer is too ignorant, then please educate us. American politics is a field of interest of mine - but it's absolutely not something I consider myself an expert on. Pedagogics however kind of is, and I can tell you that none of the people complaining about the level of posting in this thread are doing a good job enlightening the ignorant.

I'll agree that perhaps I have too high of a standard for argumentative discourse as a result of education and experience, but I feel like we can all make an intersection between constructive posts that attempt to engage the topics of this thread and those who are posting in the same manner and what this thread has devolved into: political name-calling and other ad hominem attacks, assumption of bad faith (or worse, assumption of a fellow poster's core values or platform), and straight-up shitposting (with the posting of meme-style pictures being a primary example, as well as making extremely wild claims with the intent of causing a flame war being another).

I have generally avoided posting in this thread throughout my tenure here on Teamliquid precisely because I see way too much of those aforementioned negative behaviors exhibited. However, in the those precious few cases in which I have intervened here, I have always attempted to bring the thread away from boring, skill-less, and tired political gamesmanship between adherents of the two diametrically-opposed (but, in actuality, quite similar) 'sides' of the American political spectrum.

That I have been confronted with still more terrible posting in response is pretty disconcerting, but I do take your words to heart. I don't think everyone posting in this thread is bad. I also don't think this thread should be closed or not exist. I just wish people could stop being so asinine and close-minded to each other in it. A simple mindfulness of having and expecting a higher standard of posting in this thread should do a lot to raising its educative value. As it stands right now, however, it functions as a definite low point area on this site in which people pride themselves on racing to the bottom so long as they engage in masturbatory political point sniping while doing so.


This thread doesn't revolve around you. For all your complaining about other people's assumptions in this thread you seem to do the same thing. When I quoted your post in the last page I was responding to more than just you. Despite your offense when I lumped my response to you with my response to Introvert and others, a fair reading of my post only attributes to you the fact that you pasted a Scalia majority opinion at me, despite my clear familiarity with the case. I don't assume you are a gun-nut, I just assume you have missed the point and are irrelevant. For all your education and experience you don't seem capable of following the ebb and flow of a limited online discussion, but you blame the other posters for not being sophisticated enough. You can ride right out of here on your high pony and browse google news if you just want some sanitized news blurbs.


My post was a statement of fact, and of legal interpretation and jurisprudence as it currently is. It also on-point attacks your claim that English common law and its analysis from both modern and contemporary sources is irrelevant and extraneous to the proper formulation of legal opinions in the American judicial system. You just assumed I'm a strict constructionist in an attempt to respond.



Of course it's a statement of fact post-Heller. That is totally irrelevant to the meaning of the word pre-Heller before Scalia magisterially concluded that that is what it meant. How does a post-Heller statement of fact pertain to a discussion of the merits and demerits of the opinions in Heller? Your statement was irrelevant and missed the point. I understood entirely what you said. I don't think it was unfair of me to assume you were irrelevant or a conservative making a question begging argument. You are free to correct my assumption and admit how irrelevant your Scalia quote was though.

Also just to be extra clear I don't think extraneous sources shouldn't be used. I was simply pointing out that Scalia's argument about the meaninh of the text is derived from extraneous sources, whereas Stevens's dissent has plenty of arguments derived from only the text that the Second Amendment does not grant a sacred right to handgun ownership. Hence the idiocy of a textualist-activist dichotomy when the supposedly activist judge relies more on the text in Heller than Scalia who has to appeal to outside sources to make his case.

As to your edited second paragraph above, I don't even know what you are arguing about. I might have underestimated how deeply you missed the point.

Feel free though to tell me about my bad assumptions. I am always open-minded.
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
itsjustatank
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Hong Kong9183 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-20 01:52:58
January 20 2014 01:50 GMT
#16027
On January 20 2014 10:40 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2014 10:30 itsjustatank wrote:
On January 20 2014 10:22 IgnE wrote:
On January 20 2014 09:56 itsjustatank wrote:
On January 20 2014 08:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think this thread is very good. Sure if you have a degree in political science and have for years been paying attention to politics while actively debating stuff and expanding your political vocabulary and observing high level academic discussions pertaining most important subjects visited by the thread then the discussions might take form at a lower level than what you would ideally participate in, but maybe you should then just accept that this is a gaming forum mostly hitting people in their late teens and twenties, with many Europeans with an interest in american politics but not necessarily with advanced understanding of american politics, and try to compare it to other discussion forums with a similar demographic.

And then you should realize that the function this thread has is not to thread new political ground creating resolutions to long-lasting political problems (because that would be impossible in this type of environment), but rather to function as a tool of expanding political knowledge for people who are interested, and to function as a training ground for forming coherent arguments. We're not discussing to convince the people we are discussing with, as most of us have made up our minds and then our brains somehow seem to function in a way that requires far more evidence to make us change our minds than for it to form the initial impression, rather we are discussing to convince those who enter this thread without already being world champion of politics.

Additionally you can always try to make it better by actually posting elaborate explanations for your point of view that might be understandable for the common plebs rather than asserting that the discussion is below your level while espousing tidbits of knowledge that indeed make it obvious that you know a lot but without you actually stating anything about what you believe. If we, the common thread-viewer is too ignorant, then please educate us. American politics is a field of interest of mine - but it's absolutely not something I consider myself an expert on. Pedagogics however kind of is, and I can tell you that none of the people complaining about the level of posting in this thread are doing a good job enlightening the ignorant.

I'll agree that perhaps I have too high of a standard for argumentative discourse as a result of education and experience, but I feel like we can all make an intersection between constructive posts that attempt to engage the topics of this thread and those who are posting in the same manner and what this thread has devolved into: political name-calling and other ad hominem attacks, assumption of bad faith (or worse, assumption of a fellow poster's core values or platform), and straight-up shitposting (with the posting of meme-style pictures being a primary example, as well as making extremely wild claims with the intent of causing a flame war being another).

I have generally avoided posting in this thread throughout my tenure here on Teamliquid precisely because I see way too much of those aforementioned negative behaviors exhibited. However, in the those precious few cases in which I have intervened here, I have always attempted to bring the thread away from boring, skill-less, and tired political gamesmanship between adherents of the two diametrically-opposed (but, in actuality, quite similar) 'sides' of the American political spectrum.

That I have been confronted with still more terrible posting in response is pretty disconcerting, but I do take your words to heart. I don't think everyone posting in this thread is bad. I also don't think this thread should be closed or not exist. I just wish people could stop being so asinine and close-minded to each other in it. A simple mindfulness of having and expecting a higher standard of posting in this thread should do a lot to raising its educative value. As it stands right now, however, it functions as a definite low point area on this site in which people pride themselves on racing to the bottom so long as they engage in masturbatory political point sniping while doing so.


This thread doesn't revolve around you. For all your complaining about other people's assumptions in this thread you seem to do the same thing. When I quoted your post in the last page I was responding to more than just you. Despite your offense when I lumped my response to you with my response to Introvert and others, a fair reading of my post only attributes to you the fact that you pasted a Scalia majority opinion at me, despite my clear familiarity with the case. I don't assume you are a gun-nut, I just assume you have missed the point and are irrelevant. For all your education and experience you don't seem capable of following the ebb and flow of a limited online discussion, but you blame the other posters for not being sophisticated enough. You can ride right out of here on your high pony and browse google news if you just want some sanitized news blurbs.


My post was a statement of fact, and of legal interpretation and jurisprudence as it currently is. It also on-point attacks your claim that English common law and its analysis from both modern and contemporary sources is irrelevant and extraneous to the proper formulation of legal opinions in the American judicial system. You just assumed I'm a strict constructionist in an attempt to respond.



Of course it's a statement of fact post-Heller. That is totally irrelevant to the meaning of the word pre-Heller before Scalia magisterially concluded that that is what it meant. How does a post-Heller statement of fact pertain to a discussion of the merits and demerits of the opinions in Heller? Your statement was irrelevant and missed the point. I understood entirely what you said. I don't think it was unfair of me to assume you were irrelevant or a conservative making a question begging argument. You are free to correct my assumption and admit how irrelevant your Scalia quote was though.


Except, you are again assuming many things. Primarily that of Scalia's opinion being magisterial. An individual right within the Constitution to keep and bear arms can be seen regardless of your personal philosophy regarding the reading of the constitution. He might have taken a circuitous one, but it isn't illegitimate regardless of your continued insistence that English common law and commentaries on it are extraneous (except they aren't because they form the basis of American law).

I find his interpretation of the Constitution, in this case, to be far more compelling than the sight-seeing of the minority opinion. As you said yourself, it should be a game of competing interpretations.
Photographer"nosotros estamos backamos" - setsuko
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
January 20 2014 01:55 GMT
#16028
On January 20 2014 10:50 itsjustatank wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2014 10:40 IgnE wrote:
On January 20 2014 10:30 itsjustatank wrote:
On January 20 2014 10:22 IgnE wrote:
On January 20 2014 09:56 itsjustatank wrote:
On January 20 2014 08:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think this thread is very good. Sure if you have a degree in political science and have for years been paying attention to politics while actively debating stuff and expanding your political vocabulary and observing high level academic discussions pertaining most important subjects visited by the thread then the discussions might take form at a lower level than what you would ideally participate in, but maybe you should then just accept that this is a gaming forum mostly hitting people in their late teens and twenties, with many Europeans with an interest in american politics but not necessarily with advanced understanding of american politics, and try to compare it to other discussion forums with a similar demographic.

And then you should realize that the function this thread has is not to thread new political ground creating resolutions to long-lasting political problems (because that would be impossible in this type of environment), but rather to function as a tool of expanding political knowledge for people who are interested, and to function as a training ground for forming coherent arguments. We're not discussing to convince the people we are discussing with, as most of us have made up our minds and then our brains somehow seem to function in a way that requires far more evidence to make us change our minds than for it to form the initial impression, rather we are discussing to convince those who enter this thread without already being world champion of politics.

Additionally you can always try to make it better by actually posting elaborate explanations for your point of view that might be understandable for the common plebs rather than asserting that the discussion is below your level while espousing tidbits of knowledge that indeed make it obvious that you know a lot but without you actually stating anything about what you believe. If we, the common thread-viewer is too ignorant, then please educate us. American politics is a field of interest of mine - but it's absolutely not something I consider myself an expert on. Pedagogics however kind of is, and I can tell you that none of the people complaining about the level of posting in this thread are doing a good job enlightening the ignorant.

I'll agree that perhaps I have too high of a standard for argumentative discourse as a result of education and experience, but I feel like we can all make an intersection between constructive posts that attempt to engage the topics of this thread and those who are posting in the same manner and what this thread has devolved into: political name-calling and other ad hominem attacks, assumption of bad faith (or worse, assumption of a fellow poster's core values or platform), and straight-up shitposting (with the posting of meme-style pictures being a primary example, as well as making extremely wild claims with the intent of causing a flame war being another).

I have generally avoided posting in this thread throughout my tenure here on Teamliquid precisely because I see way too much of those aforementioned negative behaviors exhibited. However, in the those precious few cases in which I have intervened here, I have always attempted to bring the thread away from boring, skill-less, and tired political gamesmanship between adherents of the two diametrically-opposed (but, in actuality, quite similar) 'sides' of the American political spectrum.

That I have been confronted with still more terrible posting in response is pretty disconcerting, but I do take your words to heart. I don't think everyone posting in this thread is bad. I also don't think this thread should be closed or not exist. I just wish people could stop being so asinine and close-minded to each other in it. A simple mindfulness of having and expecting a higher standard of posting in this thread should do a lot to raising its educative value. As it stands right now, however, it functions as a definite low point area on this site in which people pride themselves on racing to the bottom so long as they engage in masturbatory political point sniping while doing so.


This thread doesn't revolve around you. For all your complaining about other people's assumptions in this thread you seem to do the same thing. When I quoted your post in the last page I was responding to more than just you. Despite your offense when I lumped my response to you with my response to Introvert and others, a fair reading of my post only attributes to you the fact that you pasted a Scalia majority opinion at me, despite my clear familiarity with the case. I don't assume you are a gun-nut, I just assume you have missed the point and are irrelevant. For all your education and experience you don't seem capable of following the ebb and flow of a limited online discussion, but you blame the other posters for not being sophisticated enough. You can ride right out of here on your high pony and browse google news if you just want some sanitized news blurbs.


My post was a statement of fact, and of legal interpretation and jurisprudence as it currently is. It also on-point attacks your claim that English common law and its analysis from both modern and contemporary sources is irrelevant and extraneous to the proper formulation of legal opinions in the American judicial system. You just assumed I'm a strict constructionist in an attempt to respond.



Of course it's a statement of fact post-Heller. That is totally irrelevant to the meaning of the word pre-Heller before Scalia magisterially concluded that that is what it meant. How does a post-Heller statement of fact pertain to a discussion of the merits and demerits of the opinions in Heller? Your statement was irrelevant and missed the point. I understood entirely what you said. I don't think it was unfair of me to assume you were irrelevant or a conservative making a question begging argument. You are free to correct my assumption and admit how irrelevant your Scalia quote was though.


Except, you are again assuming many things. Primarily that of Scalia's opinion being magisterial. An individual right within the Constitution to keep and bear arms can be seen regardless of your personal philosophy regarding the reading of the constitution. He might have taken a circuitous one, but it isn't illegitimate.

I find his interpretation of the Constitution, in this case, to be far more compelling than the sight-seeing of the minority opinion. As you said yourself, it should be a game of competing interpretations.


I'm not assuming anything. I read the opinion. I'm not sure you even know what "assumptions" are. What do you think I'm saying? That Heller isn't law? Because that's not what I'm saying.
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
itsjustatank
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Hong Kong9183 Posts
January 20 2014 01:59 GMT
#16029
On January 20 2014 10:55 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2014 10:50 itsjustatank wrote:
On January 20 2014 10:40 IgnE wrote:
On January 20 2014 10:30 itsjustatank wrote:
On January 20 2014 10:22 IgnE wrote:
On January 20 2014 09:56 itsjustatank wrote:
On January 20 2014 08:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think this thread is very good. Sure if you have a degree in political science and have for years been paying attention to politics while actively debating stuff and expanding your political vocabulary and observing high level academic discussions pertaining most important subjects visited by the thread then the discussions might take form at a lower level than what you would ideally participate in, but maybe you should then just accept that this is a gaming forum mostly hitting people in their late teens and twenties, with many Europeans with an interest in american politics but not necessarily with advanced understanding of american politics, and try to compare it to other discussion forums with a similar demographic.

And then you should realize that the function this thread has is not to thread new political ground creating resolutions to long-lasting political problems (because that would be impossible in this type of environment), but rather to function as a tool of expanding political knowledge for people who are interested, and to function as a training ground for forming coherent arguments. We're not discussing to convince the people we are discussing with, as most of us have made up our minds and then our brains somehow seem to function in a way that requires far more evidence to make us change our minds than for it to form the initial impression, rather we are discussing to convince those who enter this thread without already being world champion of politics.

Additionally you can always try to make it better by actually posting elaborate explanations for your point of view that might be understandable for the common plebs rather than asserting that the discussion is below your level while espousing tidbits of knowledge that indeed make it obvious that you know a lot but without you actually stating anything about what you believe. If we, the common thread-viewer is too ignorant, then please educate us. American politics is a field of interest of mine - but it's absolutely not something I consider myself an expert on. Pedagogics however kind of is, and I can tell you that none of the people complaining about the level of posting in this thread are doing a good job enlightening the ignorant.

I'll agree that perhaps I have too high of a standard for argumentative discourse as a result of education and experience, but I feel like we can all make an intersection between constructive posts that attempt to engage the topics of this thread and those who are posting in the same manner and what this thread has devolved into: political name-calling and other ad hominem attacks, assumption of bad faith (or worse, assumption of a fellow poster's core values or platform), and straight-up shitposting (with the posting of meme-style pictures being a primary example, as well as making extremely wild claims with the intent of causing a flame war being another).

I have generally avoided posting in this thread throughout my tenure here on Teamliquid precisely because I see way too much of those aforementioned negative behaviors exhibited. However, in the those precious few cases in which I have intervened here, I have always attempted to bring the thread away from boring, skill-less, and tired political gamesmanship between adherents of the two diametrically-opposed (but, in actuality, quite similar) 'sides' of the American political spectrum.

That I have been confronted with still more terrible posting in response is pretty disconcerting, but I do take your words to heart. I don't think everyone posting in this thread is bad. I also don't think this thread should be closed or not exist. I just wish people could stop being so asinine and close-minded to each other in it. A simple mindfulness of having and expecting a higher standard of posting in this thread should do a lot to raising its educative value. As it stands right now, however, it functions as a definite low point area on this site in which people pride themselves on racing to the bottom so long as they engage in masturbatory political point sniping while doing so.


This thread doesn't revolve around you. For all your complaining about other people's assumptions in this thread you seem to do the same thing. When I quoted your post in the last page I was responding to more than just you. Despite your offense when I lumped my response to you with my response to Introvert and others, a fair reading of my post only attributes to you the fact that you pasted a Scalia majority opinion at me, despite my clear familiarity with the case. I don't assume you are a gun-nut, I just assume you have missed the point and are irrelevant. For all your education and experience you don't seem capable of following the ebb and flow of a limited online discussion, but you blame the other posters for not being sophisticated enough. You can ride right out of here on your high pony and browse google news if you just want some sanitized news blurbs.


My post was a statement of fact, and of legal interpretation and jurisprudence as it currently is. It also on-point attacks your claim that English common law and its analysis from both modern and contemporary sources is irrelevant and extraneous to the proper formulation of legal opinions in the American judicial system. You just assumed I'm a strict constructionist in an attempt to respond.



Of course it's a statement of fact post-Heller. That is totally irrelevant to the meaning of the word pre-Heller before Scalia magisterially concluded that that is what it meant. How does a post-Heller statement of fact pertain to a discussion of the merits and demerits of the opinions in Heller? Your statement was irrelevant and missed the point. I understood entirely what you said. I don't think it was unfair of me to assume you were irrelevant or a conservative making a question begging argument. You are free to correct my assumption and admit how irrelevant your Scalia quote was though.


Except, you are again assuming many things. Primarily that of Scalia's opinion being magisterial. An individual right within the Constitution to keep and bear arms can be seen regardless of your personal philosophy regarding the reading of the constitution. He might have taken a circuitous one, but it isn't illegitimate.

I find his interpretation of the Constitution, in this case, to be far more compelling than the sight-seeing of the minority opinion. As you said yourself, it should be a game of competing interpretations.


I'm not assuming anything. I read the opinion. I'm not sure you even know what "assumptions" are. What do you think I'm saying? That Heller isn't law? Because that's not what I'm saying.


You assume that because he states he is a strict constructionist, he cannot use English common law or its commentaries. It is the fundamental crux of your argument here.
Photographer"nosotros estamos backamos" - setsuko
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5093 Posts
January 20 2014 02:04 GMT
#16030
Scalia has not claimed to be a strict constructionist. Actually, I believe he has said he is NOT one.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
itsjustatank
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Hong Kong9183 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-20 02:10:39
January 20 2014 02:08 GMT
#16031
On January 20 2014 11:04 Introvert wrote:
Scalia has not claimed to be a strict constructionist. Actually, I believe he has said he is NOT one.


Actually, that's a good point. It is pretty easy to conflate the philosophy of staying true to the text with constructionism, which absolutely forbids activism on the court.

At any rate, he isn't forbidden from using contemporary sources regarding English common law and the ancient right he cites in the formulation of opinion on both a procedural and a personal internal consistency level.
Photographer"nosotros estamos backamos" - setsuko
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
January 20 2014 02:13 GMT
#16032
Yes it is my position that Scalia is disingenuous when he pretends to find some kind of objective meaning relating to handguns in the written text of a document for a group of people that had muskets and militias. Guilty as charged.

It is also my position that Stevens provides just as reasonable arguments, entirely based on the text as written, without having to go through so many logical contortions to find context that reaffirms his startig position.

You might have gotten a better response if you had been this precise in your first post.
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
itsjustatank
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Hong Kong9183 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-20 02:14:34
January 20 2014 02:13 GMT
#16033
At 72, Justice Scalia is still a maverick, championing a philosophy known as "orginalism," which means interpreting the Constitution based on what it originally meant to the people who ratified it over 200 years ago.

Scalia has no patience with so-called activist judges, who create rights not in the Constitution - like a right to abortion - by interpreting the Constitution as a "living document" that adapts to changing values.

Asked what's wrong with the living Constitution, Scalia tells Stahl, "What's wrong with it is, it's wonderful imagery and it puts me on the defensive as defending presumably a dead Constitution."

"It is an enduring Constitution that I want to defend," he says.

"But what you're saying is, let's try to figure out the mindset of people back 200 years ago? Right?" Stahl asks.

"Well, it isn't the mindset. It's what did the words mean to the people who ratified the Bill of Rights or who ratified the Constitution," Scalia says.

"As opposed to what people today think it means," Stahl asks.

"As opposed to what people today would like," Scalia says.

"But you do admit that values change? We do adapt. We move," Stahl asks.

"That's fine. And so do laws change. Because values change, legislatures abolish the death penalty, permit same-sex marriage if they want, abolish laws against homosexual conduct. That's how the change in a society occurs. Society doesn't change through a Constitution," Scalia argues.

...

"These are people that don't understand what my interpretive philosophy is. I'm not saying no progress. I'm saying we should progress democratically," Scalia says.


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/justice-scalia-on-the-record/

Anyways, the point is that I find his arguments very compelling, regardless of what Stevens says precisely because of the evidence. However, if gun control advocates want, they can codify what they interpret the Second Amendment to be (or abolish it entirely) via a constitutional amendment.
Photographer"nosotros estamos backamos" - setsuko
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
January 20 2014 02:15 GMT
#16034
On January 20 2014 11:04 Introvert wrote:
Scalia has not claimed to be a strict constructionist. Actually, I believe he has said he is NOT one.


As ridiculous as I think Scalia is most of the time, he is a very smart man.
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
January 20 2014 04:20 GMT
#16035
On January 20 2014 07:01 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2014 04:58 farvacola wrote:
And pointing out the obvious using "literally" like a 15 year old along with an oversimplification contributes to nothing more than an already clearly established sense of self-superiority. Your dislike for the manner in which most people express their political inclinations is duly noted, but that needn't get in the way of looking for where partisan political perspectives diverge. You also forgot about Stealth; his dedication to posting news items is a big part of why this thread ends up being useful.

Robotically posting stuff from TPM is useful?
Don't forget ThinkProgress and HuffPo!
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
darthfoley
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States8004 Posts
January 20 2014 05:35 GMT
#16036
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/18/politics/hoboken-mayor-christie-sandy-funds/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

In another controversy surrounding New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, Hoboken Mayor Dawn Zimmer said Sunday that Christie directly ordered the withholding of Superstorm Sandy recovery funds unless she backed a redevelopment plan he favored.

Appearing on CNN's "State of the Union," Zimmer said she was told by a member of Christie's administration that Sandy relief funds hinged on her support for a real estate development project and that the directive was coming directly from Christie.


Looks like even more bad news for Chris Christie's camp. Interesting to see how this all of this will play out for 2016.
watch the wall collide with my fist, mostly over problems that i know i should fix
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 20 2014 06:51 GMT
#16037
TOKYO, Jan 20 (Reuters) - In an unusual move, U.S. ambassador to Japan Caroline Kennedy has expressed deep concern over the traditional dolphin hunt in western Japan, where local fisherman corral dolphins in a secluded bay before killing many for meat.

The annual dolphin hunt currently underway in Taiji in western Japan has long been a source of controversy and was the topic of "The Cove," an Oscar-winning documentary.

"(I am) deeply concerned by inhumanness of drive hunt dolphin killing," Kennedy tweeted at the weekend, adding that the U.S. government opposes drive hunt fishing.

Every year the fishermen of Taiji - a small fishing town in Japan's Wakayama prefecture - drive hundreds of dolphins into a cove, select some for sale to marine parks, release some back into the sea and kill the rest for meat.

Sea Shepherd, one of several animal protection groups that monitor fishermen in Taiji, said on Monday that more than 200 dolphins have been rounded up into the secluded bay by the shore off Taiji.

The organization is streaming live footage of Taiji's cove, showing fishermen on several fishing boats rounding up the dolphins inside the bay. The dolphins are cordoned off by large fishing nets.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8778 Posts
January 20 2014 07:30 GMT
#16038
On January 20 2014 14:35 darthfoley wrote:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/18/politics/hoboken-mayor-christie-sandy-funds/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Show nested quote +
In another controversy surrounding New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, Hoboken Mayor Dawn Zimmer said Sunday that Christie directly ordered the withholding of Superstorm Sandy recovery funds unless she backed a redevelopment plan he favored.

Appearing on CNN's "State of the Union," Zimmer said she was told by a member of Christie's administration that Sandy relief funds hinged on her support for a real estate development project and that the directive was coming directly from Christie.


Looks like even more bad news for Chris Christie's camp. Interesting to see how this all of this will play out for 2016.


lol. If the stories keep trickling down this way I don't see how that can pan out well for Christie in the long run.
fawns over the new helipad's rave reviews.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
January 20 2014 07:50 GMT
#16039
It should be clear by now that the man is a corrupt bully.

That dolphin story is pretty sad. Is _The Cove_ a good documentary?
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-20 09:47:53
January 20 2014 09:03 GMT
#16040
I don't know if this has been discussed already :

If the minimum wage rose to $10.10 per hour, as Senate Democrats and President Barack Obama propose, 27.8 million workers would see their wages go up as a direct or indirect result of the boost, according to the Economic Policy Institute, a left-leaning think tank. These workers would take home about $35 billion in additional wages and they would probably spend it, as low-income people living with little financial cushion tend to do.

The result: During the initial phase-in period, the U.S. economy would grow by about $22 billion, EPI found. The growth in the U.S. economy would result in about 85,000 new jobs, according to EPI. That counters arguments from conservative economists that raising the minimum wage could actually hurt the working poor by making employers hesitant to hire more workers.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/19/1010-minimum-wage_n_4474183.html

The discussion behind the increase in the minimum wage is really interesting ! I still think the economists thinking an increase in minimum wage will increase both economic growth and employment are mistaking theirselves. I would love if economy actually behaved like a function, as in economists' dreams.

I really hope that they increase minimum wage, not only because it will actually help a lot of people, but because it will be a huge test for modern economic theory.

I will actually discuss this with my students in class.

On January 20 2014 08:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think this thread is very good. Sure if you have a degree in political science and have for years been paying attention to politics while actively debating stuff and expanding your political vocabulary and observing high level academic discussions pertaining most important subjects visited by the thread then the discussions might take form at a lower level than what you would ideally participate in, but maybe you should then just accept that this is a gaming forum mostly hitting people in their late teens and twenties, with many Europeans with an interest in american politics but not necessarily with advanced understanding of american politics, and try to compare it to other discussion forums with a similar demographic.

And then you should realize that the function this thread has is not to thread new political ground creating resolutions to long-lasting political problems (because that would be impossible in this type of environment), but rather to function as a tool of expanding political knowledge for people who are interested, and to function as a training ground for forming coherent arguments. We're not discussing to convince the people we are discussing with, as most of us have made up our minds and then our brains somehow seem to function in a way that requires far more evidence to make us change our minds than for it to form the initial impression, rather we are discussing to convince those who enter this thread without already being world champion of politics.

Additionally you can always try to make it better by actually posting elaborate explanations for your point of view that might be understandable for the common plebs rather than asserting that the discussion is below your level while espousing tidbits of knowledge that indeed make it obvious that you know a lot but without you actually stating anything about what you believe. If we, the common thread-viewer is too ignorant, then please educate us. American politics is a field of interest of mine - but it's absolutely not something I consider myself an expert on. Pedagogics however kind of is, and I can tell you that none of the people complaining about the level of posting in this thread are doing a good job enlightening the ignorant.

Just wanted to say that I'm always impressed with the way you respond and defend your argument - clear, without any animosity, something most of us seems to struggle with.

It is a political thread, so as farvacola put it, "for better or for worse" the subject require some kind degrees of mess. Politics is, and will always be, the war of gods. In today's world we came to believe that there was some kind of "optimal course", that politics was a science by function, that we could solve our problem as simply as a math problem as long as we're smart enough for it, that "the best" solution for everyone exist, no matter their class, gender, value, aspirations.
The "mess" we see is just the resurgence of values, our own gods that cannot disappear from the field, no matter our desire to do so. Some posters here, such as Danglars or Sam, have both the quality and the default to refuse to forget about everyone's gods in the midst of the argument, and tend to always make people remember their core, which can be frustrating.

From my point of view, because deep down it's a question of value, there is a limit to our agreement.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
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