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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 8015

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-05 21:06:25
July 05 2017 21:04 GMT
#160281
when you sign up, the credit card runs a "hard pull" on your credit which dings it for a few points but goes away after a few months. as long as you don't close an account after you lose the promo - which would lower the average age of your accounts - overall having more cards, in a rather twisted way, is good for your credit. i have a bunch of cards that i shredded after i was done with the bonusand never used again, all i keep is scanned copies of the credit agreements and my online login info.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
July 05 2017 21:07 GMT
#160282
Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Charles Grassley is demanding the Justice Department's Inspector General investigate whether acting FBI Director Andrew McCabe engaged in potential conflicts of interest during the Russia election investigation.

Grassley's request, sent Thursday night, follows new revelations that the nation's top cop is the subject of three federal inquires ranging from sexual discrimination to political conflicts of interest, all of which were ongoing during the FBI's probe into Russian election tampering that roiled the Trump administration.

The inspector general needs to investigate McCabe and the "FBI's handling of recent politically charged investigations," Grassley wrote. The inspector general has the authority to conduct criminal or administrative investigations into FBI andf Justice officials' conduct.

Photos disclosed earlier this week by Circa showed McCabe was engaged in political campaigning for his wife, Jill McCabe, who had an unsuccessful bid for Virginia State Senate in 2015. The Office of U.S. Special Counsel is now investigating McCabe's activities in his wife's campaign.

The photos in question were posted on social media and show him wearing T-shirts supporting his wife at public events. Documents also show his official FBI biography was used to set up a meeting with Virginia Gov Terry McAuliffe before the Virginia governor supported Jill McCabe's campaign with $500,000.

The Hatch Act prohibits FBI employees from engaging "in political activity in concert with a political party, a candidate for partisan political office, or a partisan political group" but are much stricter for FBI and intelligence employees. Mccabe has said he sought ethics experts' advice about his wife's campaign.

Circa
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
July 05 2017 21:07 GMT
#160283
On July 06 2017 05:37 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2017 05:34 Mohdoo wrote:
On July 06 2017 05:31 KwarK wrote:
Meanwhile, as xDaunt alluded to earlier, the systems put in place to help people who actually need help buying a house will be monopolized by the likes of me. Back when I was playing EVE Online there used to be something we called Malcanis' Law which stated
Any mechanism put in place to help the newest players will inevitably end up being used exclusively by and for the oldest players

It's a conundrum. Each of the last three years the government has happily doled out $2,000 in retirement savings credits to my wife and I. Meanwhile the working poor don't get shit because they don't read the tax code.


I feel like I am probably one of the people you describe. How do you recommend someone understands the tax code? I don't even know what I'd search. I am interested in being more efficient in the way you described, but the extent of that for me is just putting money in my 401k..

Hire a good accountant. You strike me as someone who earns enough such that you have no business doing your own taxes. Leave it to the experts.

Second this. My accountant used to work for the IRS and knows the ins and outs of how they work. The money I pay for that is pennies compared to how much I save from having an expert who knows how to work the system to its limits working on saving me the maximum possible amount.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-05 21:10:08
July 05 2017 21:09 GMT
#160284
legal, your claims of hillary's vileness as potential president are unfounded as usual; as is your broad claim of people shilling when in many cases they're doing far less than that yet you still call it shilling. no new ground to tread though; just old arguments you keep making over and over.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 05 2017 21:22 GMT
#160285
I will pay you both to take it to PM. For the love of god can we not have this old argument happen again. I would rather talk about racism or something equally non-productive.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-05 21:42:49
July 05 2017 21:38 GMT
#160286
On July 06 2017 05:49 Logo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2017 05:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On July 06 2017 05:12 KwarK wrote:
On July 06 2017 05:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On July 06 2017 04:38 KwarK wrote:
On July 06 2017 04:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On July 06 2017 04:16 KwarK wrote:
On July 06 2017 04:12 Logo wrote:
On July 06 2017 04:05 Plansix wrote:
On July 06 2017 03:56 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
I think the other thing that bears mentioning on the home ec courses is that the bar of required financial sophistication is far higher now than it used to be. Credit cards and other easy forms of credit completely changed the game. We're way past the simple balancing of a checkbook -- albeit the concept behind that particular skill is still the key to getting good credit and having as many financial tools as possible as your disposal.

That is the problem. Our education system did not keep up with the complexity of systems we created. And at the same time we deregulated many of the companies running those systems. You can't just go to your local bank and ask to start a retirement fund with any confidence. So people just ignore he hall of mirrors and hope they can make due without.


I'd imagine the recession also did a lot of damage to trust in financial services (I can find sources saying it's low or that it's declined, but nothing like a year over year chart) which probably hurts people's desire to participate in the system until they are dragged into it.

The closest your grandparent's generation would have come to modern credit debt are the tales their grandparents would have told them about company scrip. Credit is a game changer and, just like the company store, the system has incentives that could not be more opposed to that of the participant.

I don't understand why you need home economics courses to understand that money spent on credit is money owed. You have to be pretty stupid to not understand that, or is there an American cultural issue I am missing? Pension funds and investments are fairly complicated though.

Come to America and you'll see. You're starting with an assumption that you don't buy things on credit if you have cash. That's not valid here. Revolving credit has been normalized in a very weird way and interest rates are viewed as less important than monthly payment amounts.

It's hard to really explain, coming from the UK to the US.

You don't buy cars in the US. You go to the weird megachurch car temple place and you tell them how much you can afford monthly. Then they tell you the biggest truck you can get for that (a Ford F150 costing the median annual salary pre-tax) and give you a shovel of popcorn, a giant soda and you watch a cinema screen of aspirational truck stuff. The good news is that there are no payments to make for 48 months and it's interest free for 72 months. Then three years later you go back and trade it in for a new one. The old truck is the down payment on the new truck and the balance owed on the old truck (which is all the balance) is rolled in to a greater debt in the new truck.

"Normal" in the US is very much not normal. Interest isn't really understood. It's normal to be making payments, if the payments are affordable then you're fine, it's only if they're unaffordable that you're irresponsible. I've been in the US for 3 years and I have over 20 credit cards and access to $100,000 or so of credit without giving them any real indication that I can be trusted with that kind of thing. It's a really weird country. But people base their expectations on what they see around them. If they see people around them doing things then the things must be okay.
My mind is blown. I can understand the free food and drink, but who would waste their time watching a movie/advert? There's a similar thing in the UK called PCP, but you have to pay a deposit and monthly payments. Then you can choose to stop payment, buy the car outright with the remaining money owed or trade the depreciated value of the car for a new car. Sometimes if you choose to buy the car outright, you will end up paying less than the listed price.

The bizarre thing is that total price and interest rate simply aren't part of the conversation when making large purchases anymore. What it costs, both the principal and the total amount you will pay if you finance it, just aren't viewed as important information. The important information in order of importance

1) Duration of promotional no payments period
2) Down payment required (often no down payment)
3) Amount of each payment
4) Amount of cash back they give you (this one will amaze you, so some of the time when you finance shit they actually give you a cash payment, so if you can't afford your rent then it may seem rational to upgrade your truck because you could really use that $2,000 cash back advance)
5) Amount of existing debt they will refinance into the new debt (so if instead of no down payment your situation is actually negative down payment, you owe more on the trade in than it is worth, that's still fine, you can roll that existing debt into the new debt's financing agreement)
6) Duration of promotional interest free period
7) Interest rate
8) Actual cost of the item you are buying
9) Total amount you will pay given 7 and 8

Try to get your head around that. You can buy shit with a negative amount as your down payment and have them add that negative amount to the total you'll owe and even get cash back, rolling that on top too. And people do it. All the time. This is just the normal for America now. It's how people operate. Everyone is in debt and everyone is fine with it and when you can't manage your debt anymore then you refinance to get the payments back under control and simply roll back the date until you've paid off the debt or go interest only for a while.
What the actual? 4 is just bizarre. I don't understand 5. You lost your old car to finance your new car, yet you still have to pay for the old car as well as the new car?


If your old car with worth $5000 and you own $7000 (happens due to depreciation) then they'll give you $5000 to pay off the debt you own for your car then roll the $2000 you still owe into your new loan.


On July 06 2017 05:54 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2017 05:49 Logo wrote:
On July 06 2017 05:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On July 06 2017 05:12 KwarK wrote:
On July 06 2017 05:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On July 06 2017 04:38 KwarK wrote:
On July 06 2017 04:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On July 06 2017 04:16 KwarK wrote:
On July 06 2017 04:12 Logo wrote:
On July 06 2017 04:05 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
That is the problem. Our education system did not keep up with the complexity of systems we created. And at the same time we deregulated many of the companies running those systems. You can't just go to your local bank and ask to start a retirement fund with any confidence. So people just ignore he hall of mirrors and hope they can make due without.


I'd imagine the recession also did a lot of damage to trust in financial services (I can find sources saying it's low or that it's declined, but nothing like a year over year chart) which probably hurts people's desire to participate in the system until they are dragged into it.

The closest your grandparent's generation would have come to modern credit debt are the tales their grandparents would have told them about company scrip. Credit is a game changer and, just like the company store, the system has incentives that could not be more opposed to that of the participant.

I don't understand why you need home economics courses to understand that money spent on credit is money owed. You have to be pretty stupid to not understand that, or is there an American cultural issue I am missing? Pension funds and investments are fairly complicated though.

Come to America and you'll see. You're starting with an assumption that you don't buy things on credit if you have cash. That's not valid here. Revolving credit has been normalized in a very weird way and interest rates are viewed as less important than monthly payment amounts.

It's hard to really explain, coming from the UK to the US.

You don't buy cars in the US. You go to the weird megachurch car temple place and you tell them how much you can afford monthly. Then they tell you the biggest truck you can get for that (a Ford F150 costing the median annual salary pre-tax) and give you a shovel of popcorn, a giant soda and you watch a cinema screen of aspirational truck stuff. The good news is that there are no payments to make for 48 months and it's interest free for 72 months. Then three years later you go back and trade it in for a new one. The old truck is the down payment on the new truck and the balance owed on the old truck (which is all the balance) is rolled in to a greater debt in the new truck.

"Normal" in the US is very much not normal. Interest isn't really understood. It's normal to be making payments, if the payments are affordable then you're fine, it's only if they're unaffordable that you're irresponsible. I've been in the US for 3 years and I have over 20 credit cards and access to $100,000 or so of credit without giving them any real indication that I can be trusted with that kind of thing. It's a really weird country. But people base their expectations on what they see around them. If they see people around them doing things then the things must be okay.
My mind is blown. I can understand the free food and drink, but who would waste their time watching a movie/advert? There's a similar thing in the UK called PCP, but you have to pay a deposit and monthly payments. Then you can choose to stop payment, buy the car outright with the remaining money owed or trade the depreciated value of the car for a new car. Sometimes if you choose to buy the car outright, you will end up paying less than the listed price.

The bizarre thing is that total price and interest rate simply aren't part of the conversation when making large purchases anymore. What it costs, both the principal and the total amount you will pay if you finance it, just aren't viewed as important information. The important information in order of importance

1) Duration of promotional no payments period
2) Down payment required (often no down payment)
3) Amount of each payment
4) Amount of cash back they give you (this one will amaze you, so some of the time when you finance shit they actually give you a cash payment, so if you can't afford your rent then it may seem rational to upgrade your truck because you could really use that $2,000 cash back advance)
5) Amount of existing debt they will refinance into the new debt (so if instead of no down payment your situation is actually negative down payment, you owe more on the trade in than it is worth, that's still fine, you can roll that existing debt into the new debt's financing agreement)
6) Duration of promotional interest free period
7) Interest rate
8) Actual cost of the item you are buying
9) Total amount you will pay given 7 and 8

Try to get your head around that. You can buy shit with a negative amount as your down payment and have them add that negative amount to the total you'll owe and even get cash back, rolling that on top too. And people do it. All the time. This is just the normal for America now. It's how people operate. Everyone is in debt and everyone is fine with it and when you can't manage your debt anymore then you refinance to get the payments back under control and simply roll back the date until you've paid off the debt or go interest only for a while.
What the actual? 4 is just bizarre. I don't understand 5. You lost your old car to finance your new car, yet you still have to pay for the old car as well as the new car?


If your old car with worth $5000 and you own $7000 (happens due to depreciation) then they'll give you $5000 to pay off the debt you own for your car then roll the $2000 you still owe into your new loan.

You're thinking of my point 5, rolling an underwater car debt into a new loan. Point 4 was cashback. If your old car is worth $5,000 and you owe $7,000 then they'll roll $4,000 into your new debt, take the old car off your hands, let you buy a new car and give you a check to $2,000. You've not seen cashback car loans?


Thanks guys for explaining. In comparison with UK PCP where you are nominally paying the cost of depreciation and can just choose to end all payments or roll the end payment into a new car in the dealership, USA's car dealership market seems particularily scummy through lack of regulation.

I was interested in this "credit card churning". I did a bit of research and it doesn't seem to exist in the UK. A shame. It seemed like "free" money.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15689 Posts
July 05 2017 21:39 GMT
#160287
On July 06 2017 06:22 Plansix wrote:
I will pay you both to take it to PM. For the love of god can we not have this old argument happen again. I would rather talk about racism or something equally non-productive.


I'd contribute to this gofundme
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
July 05 2017 21:43 GMT
#160288
Unlectable, unelectable, unelectable, how many time with Legalord of his own volition churn this dead horse I wonder?
Ghostcom
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark4782 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-05 21:46:34
July 05 2017 21:46 GMT
#160289
On July 06 2017 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2017 06:22 Plansix wrote:
I will pay you both to take it to PM. For the love of god can we not have this old argument happen again. I would rather talk about racism or something equally non-productive.


I'd contribute to this gofundme


Get TL plus and block them (I'm considering doing the same). That is still a feature right?
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20254 Posts
July 05 2017 22:02 GMT
#160290
The anti-hillary circle jerk is like twice as loud amd numerous as her fan circle jerk but its always the anti guys who are baffled at people who "shill for her until the last breath" then turn around and anti shill 10x harder and go super hyberbolic.
Never Knows Best.
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
July 05 2017 22:03 GMT
#160291
On July 06 2017 05:34 OuchyDathurts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2017 05:26 Plansix wrote:
On July 06 2017 05:17 KwarK wrote:
On July 06 2017 05:14 chocorush wrote:
On July 06 2017 05:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Why do you need to "maintain credit" to take out a mortgage? Isn't proof of regular income over the last 3 months enough?

In anycase the problem doesn't seem to be one that will be solved through home ec classes.


Once you get to loans with principles that large and interest rates that low, it's not profitable for banks to trust the average person with a job.

It is in the UK, which is his base of experience. With a decent down payment and a stable housing market a lender can reliably assume that the underlying asset won't lose too much of its value in any given time. Therefore they can repossess the asset and apply all the costs to the 20% down payment the homeowner made. Obviously it all gets more interesting once you introduce 0% down payments and creative American financing.

During the height of the sub-prime boom, they used to have zero down payment, zero proof of employment loans. That is how far removed the US finance system is from the UK system. They have been deregulated to the point where they basically hucksters. But we have been under this garbage system for a generation at this point, so we have no context for how bad it has gotten.


Don't forget about payday loans! A death spiral there is no way to pull out of. Check out this sweet offer that used to run ALL THE TIME on tv.

+ Show Spoiler +


89.68% interest, your eyes do not deceive you. A $10k loan with 84 monthly payments (7 years) of a mere $743.99 a month! For a meager grand total of $62,495.16 what a steal!


That is appalling. I remember those commercials. I saw them too. I remember thinking "well, that's clearly a scam. Sounds too good to be true." But I'm sure they hook a few people and ruin their (already difficult) lives.

On a lighter note: Is Internet Explorer the Hillary Clinton of web browsers?
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 05 2017 22:12 GMT
#160292
Since President Trump announced his decision to pull out of the Paris climate accord, hundreds of U.S. mayors have said they're committed to significantly cutting their cities' carbon emissions. More than 30 cities, including Atlanta and San Diego, have declared 100 percent renewable energy goals in the coming decades.

But is that really possible?

The story of Aspen's path to 100 percent renewable electricity shows it's complicated.

In 2006, the Colorado city's utility was one of the first in the country to declare a 100 percent renewable energy goal as part of its climate action plan to reduce overall greenhouse gas emissions.

Aspen is built around the ski industry. Mayor Steve Skadron says that behind the glitz of downtown stores like Prada and Gucci is an environmental mission.

"Put aside crazy climate zealots telling everybody to sell their cars and eat tofu," he says. "It makes economic sense for us to support these values because our economy's based on the natural environment."

The town had a good start with two hydroelectric plants it built in the 1980s. To get closer to 100 percent renewable energy, the city wanted to revive another hydroplant.

As part of that proposal, it spent millions on things like a custom turbine and generator, a move that Aspen voters approved. But some residents and groups ultimately worried the plan would reduce stream flows, and that would harm the environment. In 2012, Aspen voters reversed course and rejected the plan.

Instead, Aspen signed contracts to bring in hydropower, wind and biogas from other regions and states.

In 2015, the city utility became the third in the nation to be powered completely by renewable energy, Skadron says.

"It was really exciting," he says. "It was really hard."

All that renewable power keeps the lights on downtown. But Aspen still uses natural gas to heat homes. And when you go to ski resorts or outlying homes, the power comes from a different utility that uses some fossil fuels.

The Sierra Club is working with cities around the country to use 100 percent renewables, but Jodie Van Horn, who directs the campaign, notes "there are different factors that either enable or inhibit a city's ease of achieving their goals."

Today, only a few cities besides Aspen have achieved 100 percent renewable electricity or energy: Georgetown, Texas; Burlington, Vt.; Greensburg, Kan.; and Rockport, Mo. Kodiak Island, Alaska, is 99 percent renewable energy but uses small amounts of diesel as a backup fuel source.

Van Horn says the Sierra Club pushes cities to create their own renewable energy. But even when they buy it from faraway places, like Aspen does, it has a wider impact.

"That city is helping to shift not just the electrons consumed within that community but really helping ... the grid move toward cleaner ... sources of energy like wind and solar," she says.

The Sierra Club hopes all this will add up to lower carbon emissions for cities, and the country.

In Aspen, that's still a challenge. A decade ago the city set out to bring down all its emissions 30 percent by 2020. Despite Aspen Utilities' success, the city is not there by a long shot. Skadron says his next goal is the transportation sector. He's talking with companies about using Aspen to experiment with lowering carbon emissions from cars.

"Whoever's thinking about the transportation future whether it's Tesla or Google or Ford Motor Co. or Toyota or Apple. They would bring the transportation future," says Skadron.

After transportation, there are still emissions from the local airport and the natural gas used to heat homes. The city is working on a new climate action plan that it plans to issue this fall.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
nojok
Profile Joined May 2011
France15845 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-05 22:24:43
July 05 2017 22:23 GMT
#160293
On July 06 2017 07:02 Slaughter wrote:
The anti-hillary circle jerk is like twice as loud amd numerous as her fan circle jerk but its always the anti guys who are baffled at people who "shill for her until the last breath" then turn around and anti shill 10x harder and go super hyberbolic.

Trump supporters hated Hillary before and during the election process but once Trump has been running the White House like the mad man he is, the hate towards Hillary keeps growing up fo every mistake Trump does. It's like Trump voters have to convince themselves they did not do a terrible mistake and therefore they have to increase the evilness of Hillary all the time.
"Back then teams that won were credited, now it's called throw. I think it's sad." - Kuroky - Flap Flap Wings!
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
July 05 2017 22:30 GMT
#160294
On July 06 2017 06:02 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2017 04:55 KwarK wrote:
On July 06 2017 04:47 LegalLord wrote:
On July 06 2017 04:27 Doodsmack wrote:
On July 06 2017 04:20 LegalLord wrote:
On July 06 2017 04:18 Doodsmack wrote:
On July 06 2017 03:26 Buckyman wrote:
On July 06 2017 03:13 KwarK wrote:
I don't see the issue with classical liberalism at all. A functioning free market economy that provides a strong foundation for people from all backgrounds to compete on an even basis through the provision of healthcare, education, housing and so forth for all without discrimination on the basis of sex, race, sexual preference etc. Seems pretty much ideal to me.

The problem is that in America you can't join the political right without pledging allegiance to the anti-science anti-gay agenda and even the free market economics is little more than crony capitalism. Meanwhile the centre left comes under fire for not being extreme enough, as if that's some kind of failing.


This is the same political left that subsidizes wind and solar power so heavily that other forms of renewable energy can't compete?
Or that threatened a boycott of an entire corporation because one executive says something off the clock?
Or, in the case of California, boycotts specific states whose social legislative agendas it disagrees with?
Or that in many states across many professions makes union membership effectively mandatory?

And that's before taking into account the "liberal religion" argument, which argues that American liberals have founded an atheist religion with all the accoutrements thereof and are trying to establish themselves as the official government religion by selectively using the establishment clause against other religions.

It seems like the Democratic party uses Enlightenment ideals only by coincidence.


What sorts of ideals permit the nomination and election of Donald Trump, a man whose word is not credible?

Keeping Hillary Clinton out could qualify as an ideal in my book. FWIW in 2020 I would vote Trump if it's Trump vs Clinton again.


Keep in mind we're also talking about the nomination. This is an affirmative choice of Donald Trump. And I question why your vote would have changed, especially after seeing Trump in action after a couple months.

Trump was the best Republican candidate so it's no surprise he won when the establishment backed a Bush then had no follow up when he got utterly brutalized.

Vote changes because Trump may be bad but it's time for the Clinton Democrats to come to terms with the reality that their bullshit pursuit of putting an unelectable failure into office is a bigger threat to this country than Trump. Somehow they still haven't learned.

The reality is that between Bernie and Clinton (who were the only options due to a week crop of candidates) Clinton better fit my ideology. Hopefully a better candidate comes along but I still think Clinton would have adequately represented my interests and generally been a good president. We get that you don't like her, you've said that plenty of times. But Clinton was the best option from a very limited pool and while I hope I get a better pool in future, if I don't get more options I'd still back her.

You act like there are no centrists to whom she appealed and that the Democrats failed by not committing to a hard left populist alternative to Trump's populism. Maybe they failed you, they didn't fail me.

I could see why people would choose Clinton over Sanders. They might have been wrong but seeing how the campaign went that is acceptable.

What isn't is the whole "I don't like Hillary but I will shill for her till my last breath" phenomenon. No, she was a goddamn vile choice for president and she made it worse by showing she had no intention of changing or reaching outside her core base. If she refuses to step aside now she is merely enabling the Republicans and Trump to do their shit by promising to be marginally less bad. And I don't subscribe to your "Trump is fascism and worse than Hillary murdering people in the streets" as per your hyperbole from like eight months back. Four more years of buffoon would be infinitely preferable to another decade of the Clintonites hijacking the left and hampering progress.

On July 06 2017 06:09 zlefin wrote:
legal, your claims of hillary's vileness as potential president are unfounded as usual; as is your broad claim of people shilling when in many cases they're doing far less than that yet you still call it shilling. no new ground to tread though; just old arguments you keep making over and over.


Frankly, the endless repeat of calling Trump absolute trash and wondering why he's president and does what he does actively merits a return to the other choice in the election. He was the better general election candidate and I'd vote for him in 2020 if Dems return Hillary to their ticket for another try. If we had widespread acceptance of why he was elected, and particularly how some present actions are exactly what he was sent to office to do (say, media machine antagonism however ill-organized, America first rhetoric on foreign policy, fights against an unaccountable bureaucratic/administrative state with its own insulary interests), it wouldn't even need mentioning. That's the essential element missed by #Resist and Trump-as-fascist dialogue
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-05 22:42:52
July 05 2017 22:38 GMT
#160295
You would vote for a man who insults the media who disagrees with him, lies to the media, denigrates the justice system, drop the biggest non-nuclear bomb randomly without regard to how civilian casualties will make America less safe, fights against bureaucracy that make the president accountable, whilst enriching his own singular monetary interest?

Somehow that should run countrary to your own professed interest would it not?
bardtown
Profile Joined June 2011
England2313 Posts
July 05 2017 22:55 GMT
#160296
On July 06 2017 07:23 nojok wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2017 07:02 Slaughter wrote:
The anti-hillary circle jerk is like twice as loud amd numerous as her fan circle jerk but its always the anti guys who are baffled at people who "shill for her until the last breath" then turn around and anti shill 10x harder and go super hyberbolic.

Trump supporters hated Hillary before and during the election process but once Trump has been running the White House like the mad man he is, the hate towards Hillary keeps growing up fo every mistake Trump does. It's like Trump voters have to convince themselves they did not do a terrible mistake and therefore they have to increase the evilness of Hillary all the time.

Hillary is the only reason someone as useless as Trump could win, so in some way it makes sense to blame her for everything he does
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
July 05 2017 23:11 GMT
#160297
On July 06 2017 07:23 nojok wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2017 07:02 Slaughter wrote:
The anti-hillary circle jerk is like twice as loud amd numerous as her fan circle jerk but its always the anti guys who are baffled at people who "shill for her until the last breath" then turn around and anti shill 10x harder and go super hyberbolic.

Trump supporters hated Hillary before and during the election process but once Trump has been running the White House like the mad man he is, the hate towards Hillary keeps growing up fo every mistake Trump does. It's like Trump voters have to convince themselves they did not do a terrible mistake and therefore they have to increase the evilness of Hillary all the time.

some of it is that; it's a well documented psychological process.
and eyeroll at danglars making the usual false claim about trump having been a better general election candidate.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-05 23:15:34
July 05 2017 23:14 GMT
#160298
Safe to say that the winner is a better candidate than the loser. He won, after all.

Or are you saying that the opinion that he was the better choice is wrong?
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
July 05 2017 23:16 GMT
#160299
On July 06 2017 08:14 LegalLord wrote:
Safe to say that the winner is a better candidate than the loser.

except that it's known to not be true; and only applicable sometimes, with many other factors affecting things.
unless you have complete disregard for both fitness of a candidate for the position AND ignore situational factors that can make a candidate do better/worse at getting votes.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-05 23:26:27
July 05 2017 23:21 GMT
#160300
i will also contribute to the gofundme or whatever for yall to take it to PM, and i'm probably the biggest shill here. it's just not really worth litigating at this point, and tbh it becomes increasingly funny that people blame folks other than trump for trump.

also, is there a way we can structure my contribution to the cause as a tax deduction? iunno, like set it up as a charitable or public interest entity?
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