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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
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United States44201 Posts
On July 06 2017 03:26 Buckyman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2017 03:13 KwarK wrote:
I don't see the issue with classical liberalism at all. A functioning free market economy that provides a strong foundation for people from all backgrounds to compete on an even basis through the provision of healthcare, education, housing and so forth for all without discrimination on the basis of sex, race, sexual preference etc. Seems pretty much ideal to me.
The problem is that in America you can't join the political right without pledging allegiance to the anti-science anti-gay agenda and even the free market economics is little more than crony capitalism. Meanwhile the centre left comes under fire for not being extreme enough, as if that's some kind of failing. This is the same political left that subsidizes wind and solar power so heavily that other forms of renewable energy can't compete? Or that threatened a boycott of an entire corporation because one executive says something off the clock? Or, in the case of California, boycotts specific states whose social legislative agendas it disagrees with? Or that in many states across many professions makes union membership effectively mandatory? And that's before taking into account the "liberal religion" argument, which argues that American liberals have founded an atheist religion with all the accoutrements thereof and are trying to establish themselves as the official government religion by selectively using the establishment clause against other religions. It seems like the Democratic party uses Enlightenment ideals only by coincidence.
Democrat and Republican are broad coalitions as you well know. You cannot disprove a specific ideology by saying "people of that ideology vote Democratic, other Democrats do X, therefore that ideology supports X, therefore it's wrong".
Also while it's entirely off topic, atheism isn't a religion. It's the absence of a religion. A lot has been written on the subject if you want to explore that further.
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United States44201 Posts
On July 06 2017 03:31 plasmidghost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2017 03:02 KwarK wrote:On July 06 2017 03:00 plasmidghost wrote:
That NYTimes article is pretty much spot-on, and people like KwarK who wonder why I hate them so much, all they have to do is read this article to see why I think we both know that it's not really me you're angry at, it's yourself. Can't you fuck off already?
You're continually posting here about how much you hate me. You should take your issues to PM while you try and work out what is really going on and why you're so angry.
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On July 06 2017 03:27 KwarK wrote:
It's a systemic cultural problem. There is an obsession within America with people defining their own outcomes through their own efforts and ability. The problem is that for a very significant number of Americans the absolute last thing they want is for their outcome to be linked to their ability. What they really want is a comfortable and predictable track that leads them to a pretty alright outcome without ever needing any kind of initiative or talent on their part. They want to graduate highschool, get a job with the big employer in their town, buy a house, buy a truck, work a few decades and retire.
The American that Americans want to design America around doesn't look like most Americans I've met. As far as I can tell, I'm the American that Americans want. And I can afford a down payment after less than 3 years working in the country on a modest income.
I think most Americans want a clear path to a livable income and they don’t really care how they get there. The problem the baby boomers decided that income should be locked behind endless paywalls fueled by easy to obtain debt.
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On July 06 2017 03:08 xDaunt wrote:
So I made the transition into becoming "the man" this summer, and now own a rental property. When I put the property on the market, I got a really good look at exactly who the people are who don't own homes. What shocked me the most was the overall financial illiteracy of these people. The majority simply doesn't understand money, credit, and the proper use of debt. Getting a decent income is besides the point in these cases.
Don't get me wrong, most markets (especially any remotely desirable ones) suck right now for homebuyers. But there are programs out there that provide substantial down-payment assistance to buyers as long as they have decent credit. The problem is that too many people are so financially illiterate that they end up completely fucking their credit histories.
Not that it isn't true that people have a tenuous grasp of finances in the US, home owners or not, but there are other forces at play here. Consider the pool of people actively looking for places to rent. The most qualified among them will be accepted to move into a place of their choice almost immediately and thus be off the market. The least qualified will submit applications to every single place they can hoping 1 doesn't do a credit check or is desperate the get the place rented. Thus, everyone renting properties ends up with tons of applications from the worst applicants.
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On July 06 2017 03:29 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2017 03:27 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:23 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:22 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:18 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:15 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:12 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:08 xDaunt wrote:
So I made the transition into becoming "the man" this summer, and now own a rental property. When I put the property on the market, I got a really good look at exactly who the people are who don't own homes. What shocked me the most was the overall financial illiteracy of these people. The majority simply doesn't understand money, credit, and the proper use of debt. Getting a decent income is besides the point in these cases.
Don't get me wrong, most markets (especially any remotely desirable ones) suck right now for homebuyers. But there are programs out there that provide substantial down-payment assistance to buyers as long as they have decent credit. The problem is that too many people are so financially illiterate that they end up completely fucking their credit histories. Wow this is one of the most stereotypical like Republican/"I got mine" attitude I've ever seen in this thread. How is this a "I got mine post?" I'm not saying "fuck those people." I've only identified a big problem. You're grouping 40% of the US into a group based on your limited anecdotal evidence in one region of the country. On July 06 2017 03:17 KwarK wrote:On July 06 2017 03:12 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:08 xDaunt wrote:
So I made the transition into becoming "the man" this summer, and now own a rental property. When I put the property on the market, I got a really good look at exactly who the people are who don't own homes. What shocked me the most was the overall financial illiteracy of these people. The majority simply doesn't understand money, credit, and the proper use of debt. Getting a decent income is besides the point in these cases.
Don't get me wrong, most markets (especially any remotely desirable ones) suck right now for homebuyers. But there are programs out there that provide substantial down-payment assistance to buyers as long as they have decent credit. The problem is that too many people are so financially illiterate that they end up completely fucking their credit histories. Wow this is one of the most stereotypical like Republican/"I got mine" attitude I've ever seen in this thread. He's not wrong. It's not about politics (economic illiteracy crosses party lines), it's a cultural problem. The average American is just not equipped to live in America and a lot of programs designed to help them fail to see that the problem isn't the lack of tools, it's the user. He's not wrong about a problem for some people, but it's a gross over generalization designed to foster the problem back onto the people struggling to buy a house rather than acknowledge the multitude of problems and different circumstances. So your solution to the problem is to ignore it? Or is it merely to whine and bitch? Let's get real. My solution is to not act like all people who don't own a home are all financially illiterate and recognize there's plenty of areas where there are other significant problems in relation to people getting homes. And where exactly did I say that "all" of them are financially illiterate? I very clearly said "a majority." Don't get your panties in a bunch over phantom posts. What's the difference between majority and all when you're just making something up based on a small anecdote with no backing anyways? If I were making the comments the same way as you are the majority of people not buying a house would be doing so for completely different reasons.
So do you disagree with the proposition that a large segment of Americans is financially illiterate?
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On July 06 2017 03:36 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2017 03:29 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:27 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:23 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:22 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:18 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:15 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:12 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:08 xDaunt wrote:
So I made the transition into becoming "the man" this summer, and now own a rental property. When I put the property on the market, I got a really good look at exactly who the people are who don't own homes. What shocked me the most was the overall financial illiteracy of these people. The majority simply doesn't understand money, credit, and the proper use of debt. Getting a decent income is besides the point in these cases.
Don't get me wrong, most markets (especially any remotely desirable ones) suck right now for homebuyers. But there are programs out there that provide substantial down-payment assistance to buyers as long as they have decent credit. The problem is that too many people are so financially illiterate that they end up completely fucking their credit histories. Wow this is one of the most stereotypical like Republican/"I got mine" attitude I've ever seen in this thread. How is this a "I got mine post?" I'm not saying "fuck those people." I've only identified a big problem. You're grouping 40% of the US into a group based on your limited anecdotal evidence in one region of the country. On July 06 2017 03:17 KwarK wrote:On July 06 2017 03:12 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:08 xDaunt wrote:
So I made the transition into becoming "the man" this summer, and now own a rental property. When I put the property on the market, I got a really good look at exactly who the people are who don't own homes. What shocked me the most was the overall financial illiteracy of these people. The majority simply doesn't understand money, credit, and the proper use of debt. Getting a decent income is besides the point in these cases.
Don't get me wrong, most markets (especially any remotely desirable ones) suck right now for homebuyers. But there are programs out there that provide substantial down-payment assistance to buyers as long as they have decent credit. The problem is that too many people are so financially illiterate that they end up completely fucking their credit histories. Wow this is one of the most stereotypical like Republican/"I got mine" attitude I've ever seen in this thread. He's not wrong. It's not about politics (economic illiteracy crosses party lines), it's a cultural problem. The average American is just not equipped to live in America and a lot of programs designed to help them fail to see that the problem isn't the lack of tools, it's the user. He's not wrong about a problem for some people, but it's a gross over generalization designed to foster the problem back onto the people struggling to buy a house rather than acknowledge the multitude of problems and different circumstances. So your solution to the problem is to ignore it? Or is it merely to whine and bitch? Let's get real. My solution is to not act like all people who don't own a home are all financially illiterate and recognize there's plenty of areas where there are other significant problems in relation to people getting homes. And where exactly did I say that "all" of them are financially illiterate? I very clearly said "a majority." Don't get your panties in a bunch over phantom posts. What's the difference between majority and all when you're just making something up based on a small anecdote with no backing anyways? If I were making the comments the same way as you are the majority of people not buying a house would be doing so for completely different reasons. So do you disagree with the proposition that a large segment of Americans is financially illiterate?
I disagree with the assertion being made purely using your personal anecdote as evidence. That seems pretty reasonable no?
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On July 06 2017 03:08 xDaunt wrote:
So I made the transition into becoming "the man" this summer, and now own a rental property. When I put the property on the market, I got a really good look at exactly who the people are who don't own homes. What shocked me the most was the overall financial illiteracy of these people. The majority simply doesn't understand money, credit, and the proper use of debt. Getting a decent income is besides the point in these cases.
Don't get me wrong, most markets (especially any remotely desirable ones) suck right now for homebuyers. But there are programs out there that provide substantial down-payment assistance to buyers as long as they have decent credit. The problem is that too many people are so financially illiterate that they end up completely fucking their credit histories.
You're from Denver, right? The housing market there is certainly something, I'll tell you that much.
IME, house renters have a tendency to be low maintenance, whereas apartment renters are more troublesome, being an infinite source of stupid stories.
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United States44201 Posts
On July 06 2017 03:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2017 03:27 KwarK wrote:
It's a systemic cultural problem. There is an obsession within America with people defining their own outcomes through their own efforts and ability. The problem is that for a very significant number of Americans the absolute last thing they want is for their outcome to be linked to their ability. What they really want is a comfortable and predictable track that leads them to a pretty alright outcome without ever needing any kind of initiative or talent on their part. They want to graduate highschool, get a job with the big employer in their town, buy a house, buy a truck, work a few decades and retire.
The American that Americans want to design America around doesn't look like most Americans I've met. As far as I can tell, I'm the American that Americans want. And I can afford a down payment after less than 3 years working in the country on a modest income. I think most Americans want a clear path to a livable income and they don’t really care how they get there. The problem the baby boomers decided that income should be locked behind endless paywalls fueled by easy to obtain debt.
It's not just the baby boomers though. There is a huge disconnect between the America that Americans need and the America that Americans say they want.
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On July 06 2017 03:38 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2017 03:36 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:29 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:27 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:23 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:22 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:18 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:15 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:12 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:08 xDaunt wrote:
So I made the transition into becoming "the man" this summer, and now own a rental property. When I put the property on the market, I got a really good look at exactly who the people are who don't own homes. What shocked me the most was the overall financial illiteracy of these people. The majority simply doesn't understand money, credit, and the proper use of debt. Getting a decent income is besides the point in these cases.
Don't get me wrong, most markets (especially any remotely desirable ones) suck right now for homebuyers. But there are programs out there that provide substantial down-payment assistance to buyers as long as they have decent credit. The problem is that too many people are so financially illiterate that they end up completely fucking their credit histories. Wow this is one of the most stereotypical like Republican/"I got mine" attitude I've ever seen in this thread. How is this a "I got mine post?" I'm not saying "fuck those people." I've only identified a big problem. You're grouping 40% of the US into a group based on your limited anecdotal evidence in one region of the country. On July 06 2017 03:17 KwarK wrote:On July 06 2017 03:12 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:08 xDaunt wrote:
So I made the transition into becoming "the man" this summer, and now own a rental property. When I put the property on the market, I got a really good look at exactly who the people are who don't own homes. What shocked me the most was the overall financial illiteracy of these people. The majority simply doesn't understand money, credit, and the proper use of debt. Getting a decent income is besides the point in these cases.
Don't get me wrong, most markets (especially any remotely desirable ones) suck right now for homebuyers. But there are programs out there that provide substantial down-payment assistance to buyers as long as they have decent credit. The problem is that too many people are so financially illiterate that they end up completely fucking their credit histories. Wow this is one of the most stereotypical like Republican/"I got mine" attitude I've ever seen in this thread. He's not wrong. It's not about politics (economic illiteracy crosses party lines), it's a cultural problem. The average American is just not equipped to live in America and a lot of programs designed to help them fail to see that the problem isn't the lack of tools, it's the user. He's not wrong about a problem for some people, but it's a gross over generalization designed to foster the problem back onto the people struggling to buy a house rather than acknowledge the multitude of problems and different circumstances. So your solution to the problem is to ignore it? Or is it merely to whine and bitch? Let's get real. My solution is to not act like all people who don't own a home are all financially illiterate and recognize there's plenty of areas where there are other significant problems in relation to people getting homes. And where exactly did I say that "all" of them are financially illiterate? I very clearly said "a majority." Don't get your panties in a bunch over phantom posts. What's the difference between majority and all when you're just making something up based on a small anecdote with no backing anyways? If I were making the comments the same way as you are the majority of people not buying a house would be doing so for completely different reasons. So do you disagree with the proposition that a large segment of Americans is financially illiterate? I disagree with the assertion being made purely using your personal anecdote as evidence. That seems pretty reasonable no?
That's about as fraudulent as reasoning gets. It's akin to disagreeing with the assertion that the sky is blue simply because I said that I saw that it was blue. Cut the bullshit and give a real answer to my question.
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On July 06 2017 03:31 KwarK wrote:
Also while it's entirely off topic, atheism isn't a religion. It's the absence of a religion. A lot has been written on the subject if you want to explore that further.
Atheism as a religion is incomplete. To get the whole politics-as-religion package, you need:
Atheism (metaphysical beliefs) + intersectionality (ultimate ideals) + marxist and humanist ethics (moral system) + adulterated versions of Christian concepts (comprehensiveness) + academic leadership (accoutrements).
...with the gaps plugged by other beliefs, some of which I'm probably unfamiliar with.
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On July 06 2017 03:40 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2017 03:08 xDaunt wrote:
So I made the transition into becoming "the man" this summer, and now own a rental property. When I put the property on the market, I got a really good look at exactly who the people are who don't own homes. What shocked me the most was the overall financial illiteracy of these people. The majority simply doesn't understand money, credit, and the proper use of debt. Getting a decent income is besides the point in these cases.
Don't get me wrong, most markets (especially any remotely desirable ones) suck right now for homebuyers. But there are programs out there that provide substantial down-payment assistance to buyers as long as they have decent credit. The problem is that too many people are so financially illiterate that they end up completely fucking their credit histories. You're from Denver, right? The housing market there is certainly something, I'll tell you that much. IME, house renters have a tendency to be low maintenance, whereas apartment renters are more troublesome, being an infinite source of stupid stories.
Yeah, I'm in Denver, and the market is absolutely brutal for anyone who doesn't own something.
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On July 06 2017 03:41 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2017 03:38 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:36 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:29 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:27 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:23 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:22 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:18 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:15 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:12 Logo wrote:
[quote]
Wow this is one of the most stereotypical like Republican/"I got mine" attitude I've ever seen in this thread. How is this a "I got mine post?" I'm not saying "fuck those people." I've only identified a big problem. You're grouping 40% of the US into a group based on your limited anecdotal evidence in one region of the country. On July 06 2017 03:17 KwarK wrote:On July 06 2017 03:12 Logo wrote:
[quote]
Wow this is one of the most stereotypical like Republican/"I got mine" attitude I've ever seen in this thread. He's not wrong. It's not about politics (economic illiteracy crosses party lines), it's a cultural problem. The average American is just not equipped to live in America and a lot of programs designed to help them fail to see that the problem isn't the lack of tools, it's the user. He's not wrong about a problem for some people, but it's a gross over generalization designed to foster the problem back onto the people struggling to buy a house rather than acknowledge the multitude of problems and different circumstances. So your solution to the problem is to ignore it? Or is it merely to whine and bitch? Let's get real. My solution is to not act like all people who don't own a home are all financially illiterate and recognize there's plenty of areas where there are other significant problems in relation to people getting homes. And where exactly did I say that "all" of them are financially illiterate? I very clearly said "a majority." Don't get your panties in a bunch over phantom posts. What's the difference between majority and all when you're just making something up based on a small anecdote with no backing anyways? If I were making the comments the same way as you are the majority of people not buying a house would be doing so for completely different reasons. So do you disagree with the proposition that a large segment of Americans is financially illiterate? I disagree with the assertion being made purely using your personal anecdote as evidence. That seems pretty reasonable no? That's about as fraudulent as reasoning gets. It's akin to disagreeing with the assertion that the sky is blue simply because I said that I saw that it was blue. Cut the bullshit and give a real answer to my question.
Disagreeing that the 5? 10? 50? people you talked to for renting is a representative sample of like 100 million people is not at all the same that your observation of the sky is a reasonable observation of the sky.
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United States44201 Posts
On July 06 2017 03:43 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2017 03:41 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:38 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:36 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:29 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:27 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:23 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:22 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:18 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:15 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
How is this a "I got mine post?" I'm not saying "fuck those people." I've only identified a big problem. You're grouping 40% of the US into a group based on your limited anecdotal evidence in one region of the country. On July 06 2017 03:17 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
He's not wrong. It's not about politics (economic illiteracy crosses party lines), it's a cultural problem. The average American is just not equipped to live in America and a lot of programs designed to help them fail to see that the problem isn't the lack of tools, it's the user. He's not wrong about a problem for some people, but it's a gross over generalization designed to foster the problem back onto the people struggling to buy a house rather than acknowledge the multitude of problems and different circumstances. So your solution to the problem is to ignore it? Or is it merely to whine and bitch? Let's get real. My solution is to not act like all people who don't own a home are all financially illiterate and recognize there's plenty of areas where there are other significant problems in relation to people getting homes. And where exactly did I say that "all" of them are financially illiterate? I very clearly said "a majority." Don't get your panties in a bunch over phantom posts. What's the difference between majority and all when you're just making something up based on a small anecdote with no backing anyways? If I were making the comments the same way as you are the majority of people not buying a house would be doing so for completely different reasons. So do you disagree with the proposition that a large segment of Americans is financially illiterate? I disagree with the assertion being made purely using your personal anecdote as evidence. That seems pretty reasonable no? That's about as fraudulent as reasoning gets. It's akin to disagreeing with the assertion that the sky is blue simply because I said that I saw that it was blue. Cut the bullshit and give a real answer to my question. Disagreeing that the 5? 10? 50? people you talked to for renting is a representative sample of 128 million people is not at all the same that your observation of the sky is a reasonable observation of the sky.
There is a colossal body of evidence to support his original point of which everyone in this topic is already aware of. He wasn't saying "I saw X, therefore X is normal", he was saying "you know that normal thing X, I recently saw it up close, wow".
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On July 06 2017 03:43 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2017 03:41 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:38 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:36 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:29 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:27 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:23 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:22 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:18 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:15 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
How is this a "I got mine post?" I'm not saying "fuck those people." I've only identified a big problem. You're grouping 40% of the US into a group based on your limited anecdotal evidence in one region of the country. On July 06 2017 03:17 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
He's not wrong. It's not about politics (economic illiteracy crosses party lines), it's a cultural problem. The average American is just not equipped to live in America and a lot of programs designed to help them fail to see that the problem isn't the lack of tools, it's the user. He's not wrong about a problem for some people, but it's a gross over generalization designed to foster the problem back onto the people struggling to buy a house rather than acknowledge the multitude of problems and different circumstances. So your solution to the problem is to ignore it? Or is it merely to whine and bitch? Let's get real. My solution is to not act like all people who don't own a home are all financially illiterate and recognize there's plenty of areas where there are other significant problems in relation to people getting homes. And where exactly did I say that "all" of them are financially illiterate? I very clearly said "a majority." Don't get your panties in a bunch over phantom posts. What's the difference between majority and all when you're just making something up based on a small anecdote with no backing anyways? If I were making the comments the same way as you are the majority of people not buying a house would be doing so for completely different reasons. So do you disagree with the proposition that a large segment of Americans is financially illiterate? I disagree with the assertion being made purely using your personal anecdote as evidence. That seems pretty reasonable no? That's about as fraudulent as reasoning gets. It's akin to disagreeing with the assertion that the sky is blue simply because I said that I saw that it was blue. Cut the bullshit and give a real answer to my question. Disagreeing that the 5? 10? 50? people you talked to for renting is a representative sample of 128 million people is not at all the same that your observation of the sky is a reasonable observation of the sky.
No, I'm asking you to completely disregard my anecdotal evidence and give your own independent understanding of the financial literacy of Americans.
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On July 06 2017 03:40 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2017 03:33 Plansix wrote:On July 06 2017 03:27 KwarK wrote:
It's a systemic cultural problem. There is an obsession within America with people defining their own outcomes through their own efforts and ability. The problem is that for a very significant number of Americans the absolute last thing they want is for their outcome to be linked to their ability. What they really want is a comfortable and predictable track that leads them to a pretty alright outcome without ever needing any kind of initiative or talent on their part. They want to graduate highschool, get a job with the big employer in their town, buy a house, buy a truck, work a few decades and retire.
The American that Americans want to design America around doesn't look like most Americans I've met. As far as I can tell, I'm the American that Americans want. And I can afford a down payment after less than 3 years working in the country on a modest income. I think most Americans want a clear path to a livable income and they don’t really care how they get there. The problem the baby boomers decided that income should be locked behind endless paywalls fueled by easy to obtain debt. It's not just the baby boomers though. There is a huge disconnect between the America that Americans need and the America that Americans say they want.
That is our leaders fault. The America we need isn’t the America they want to build. One party is trying to please everyone and the other is trying to tell everyone that government is what is holding them back. Neither is trying to build a new country, because that would involve replacing parts of the old country.
Edit: Logo - he is right. There are entire cities full of people that know nothing about finance. That isn’t their fault. We destroyed home economics courses long ago because our parents thought they knew better.
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On July 06 2017 03:45 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2017 03:43 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:41 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:38 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:36 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:29 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:27 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:23 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:22 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:18 Logo wrote:
[quote]
You're grouping 40% of the US into a group based on your limited anecdotal evidence in one region of the country.
[quote]
He's not wrong about a problem for some people, but it's a gross over generalization designed to foster the problem back onto the people struggling to buy a house rather than acknowledge the multitude of problems and different circumstances. So your solution to the problem is to ignore it? Or is it merely to whine and bitch? Let's get real. My solution is to not act like all people who don't own a home are all financially illiterate and recognize there's plenty of areas where there are other significant problems in relation to people getting homes. And where exactly did I say that "all" of them are financially illiterate? I very clearly said "a majority." Don't get your panties in a bunch over phantom posts. What's the difference between majority and all when you're just making something up based on a small anecdote with no backing anyways? If I were making the comments the same way as you are the majority of people not buying a house would be doing so for completely different reasons. So do you disagree with the proposition that a large segment of Americans is financially illiterate? I disagree with the assertion being made purely using your personal anecdote as evidence. That seems pretty reasonable no? That's about as fraudulent as reasoning gets. It's akin to disagreeing with the assertion that the sky is blue simply because I said that I saw that it was blue. Cut the bullshit and give a real answer to my question. Disagreeing that the 5? 10? 50? people you talked to for renting is a representative sample of 128 million people is not at all the same that your observation of the sky is a reasonable observation of the sky. There is a colossal body of evidence to support his original point of which everyone in this topic is already aware of. He wasn't saying "I saw X, therefore X is normal", he was saying "you know that normal thing X, I recently saw it up close, wow".
Except that's not at all how the original post was framed. It wasn't "Hey this thing you'd totally expect I saw first hand" it was "I was shocked..."
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On July 06 2017 03:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2017 03:40 KwarK wrote:On July 06 2017 03:33 Plansix wrote:On July 06 2017 03:27 KwarK wrote:
It's a systemic cultural problem. There is an obsession within America with people defining their own outcomes through their own efforts and ability. The problem is that for a very significant number of Americans the absolute last thing they want is for their outcome to be linked to their ability. What they really want is a comfortable and predictable track that leads them to a pretty alright outcome without ever needing any kind of initiative or talent on their part. They want to graduate highschool, get a job with the big employer in their town, buy a house, buy a truck, work a few decades and retire.
The American that Americans want to design America around doesn't look like most Americans I've met. As far as I can tell, I'm the American that Americans want. And I can afford a down payment after less than 3 years working in the country on a modest income. I think most Americans want a clear path to a livable income and they don’t really care how they get there. The problem the baby boomers decided that income should be locked behind endless paywalls fueled by easy to obtain debt. It's not just the baby boomers though. There is a huge disconnect between the America that Americans need and the America that Americans say they want. That is our leaders fault. The America we need isn’t the America they want to build. One party is trying to please everyone and the other is trying to tell everyone that government is what is holding them back. Neither is trying to build a new country, because that would involve replacing parts of the old country. Edit: Logo - he is right. There are entire cities full of people that know nothing about finance. That isn’t their fault. We destroyed home economics courses long ago because our parents thought they knew better.
Step 1 to getting leaders who want what you need is to know what you need yourself, so you can vote for the people who share those idea's and work to implement them.
Yes your leaders are shit for a large part. But that is because people don't know, or want to admit, what kind of America they want and don't vote for the politicians who have a plan and a desire to get there.
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On July 06 2017 03:47 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2017 03:45 KwarK wrote:On July 06 2017 03:43 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:41 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:38 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:36 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:29 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:27 xDaunt wrote:On July 06 2017 03:23 Logo wrote:On July 06 2017 03:22 xDaunt wrote:
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So your solution to the problem is to ignore it? Or is it merely to whine and bitch? Let's get real. My solution is to not act like all people who don't own a home are all financially illiterate and recognize there's plenty of areas where there are other significant problems in relation to people getting homes. And where exactly did I say that "all" of them are financially illiterate? I very clearly said "a majority." Don't get your panties in a bunch over phantom posts. What's the difference between majority and all when you're just making something up based on a small anecdote with no backing anyways? If I were making the comments the same way as you are the majority of people not buying a house would be doing so for completely different reasons. So do you disagree with the proposition that a large segment of Americans is financially illiterate? I disagree with the assertion being made purely using your personal anecdote as evidence. That seems pretty reasonable no? That's about as fraudulent as reasoning gets. It's akin to disagreeing with the assertion that the sky is blue simply because I said that I saw that it was blue. Cut the bullshit and give a real answer to my question. Disagreeing that the 5? 10? 50? people you talked to for renting is a representative sample of 128 million people is not at all the same that your observation of the sky is a reasonable observation of the sky. There is a colossal body of evidence to support his original point of which everyone in this topic is already aware of. He wasn't saying "I saw X, therefore X is normal", he was saying "you know that normal thing X, I recently saw it up close, wow". Except that's not at all how the original post was framed. It wasn't "Hey this thing you'd totally expect I saw first hand" it was "I was shocked..."
I think the problem is he colored non homeowners in the negative light of fiscal irresponsibility, when the sample he was looking at was non home owners who also happen to be on the rental market which are two very different subsets of people.
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On July 06 2017 03:45 Plansix wrote:
Edit: Logo - he is right. There are entire cities full of people that know nothing about finance. That isn’t their fault. We destroyed home economics courses long ago because our parents thought they knew better.
I think the other thing that bears mentioning on the home ec courses is that the bar of required financial sophistication is far higher now than it used to be. Credit cards and other easy forms of credit completely changed the game. We're way past the simple balancing of a checkbook -- albeit the concept behind that particular skill is still the key to getting good credit and having as many financial tools as possible as your disposal.
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EPT
