EPTI don't need a lesson on which reasonable actions I should avoid around police in case they might decide to execute me. The police need to stop executing people for doing reasonable actions that a normal member of the public might be reasonably expected to do in a normal interaction with the police.
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KwarK
United States42649 Posts
I don't need a lesson on which reasonable actions I should avoid around police in case they might decide to execute me. The police need to stop executing people for doing reasonable actions that a normal member of the public might be reasonably expected to do in a normal interaction with the police. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13924 Posts
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On June 17 2017 09:48 Sermokala wrote: There was a series of events that happened that I belive gives him more then the benefit of the doubt that he didn't unreasonably fear for his live. Reaching for your wallet is not the time to announce that you have a gun. You confirm that the police officer knows you have a gun and where it is before you reach for anything. Telling someone that you have a gun and then reaching for something is what I believe is beyond a reasonable doubt something for someone to be afraid for their lives if they're a law enforcement officer. There are steps that we can do to reduce events like this happening. In school education on interacting with police officers while continuing education for police officers and continued reform of how an approach like the officer made in this case and what they say. All this takes money though which is hardest to come by in the areas where its needed most. A Mothers against drunk driving like campaign would be necessary. Simply blaming the people involved isn't going to get anywhere. or I can blame the officer involved for not using sufficient restraint; and choosing to kill the public rather than acting to save the public. the ratios indicate this was clearly one of the numerous cases wherein lives would've been saved by more reluctant to use force. You haven't really described sufficient evidence to me to establish that he should be let off as a moral standard; thoug hby the questionable legal standards of the US it may be sufficient; but we can't know for certain since oyu've admitted the prosecutor broke his oath to tank the case. the situation would be better if the officer hadn't chosen to kill a person needlessly. as a reasonable person could've done and should've been trained to do. trigger recklessness is bad; and this was clearly reckless and looks like an unjustified shoot to me. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
On June 17 2017 09:48 Sermokala wrote: Reaching for your wallet is not the time to announce that you have a gun. You confirm that the police officer knows you have a gun and where it is before you reach for anything. Telling someone that you have a gun and then reaching for something is what I believe is beyond a reasonable doubt something for someone to be afraid for their lives if they're a law enforcement officer. What's your basis for that belief? Cause generally when people announce that they have a gun, I would expect that it's not so that they can give the officer fair warning before they shoot them with it... I don't really see any logical way you can come to the conclusion that the officer is supposed to feel in danger. Sounds like victim blaming of the highest order to me. | ||
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KwarK
United States42649 Posts
On June 17 2017 09:56 Sermokala wrote: Your takeaway from this is that we don't need to actually care about why things happen but instead complain that they're happening. One of our takeaways involved a way to make the situation better. And if women wouldn't leave the house then they'd be less likely to be raped by a stranger. Why this happened is an incompetent coward decided to execute the guy, any solution that puts the responsibility on the victim to try harder not to be executed is victim blaming. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13924 Posts
On June 17 2017 10:02 KwarK wrote: And if women wouldn't leave the house then they'd be less likely to be raped by a stranger. Why this happened is an incompetent coward decided to execute the guy, any solution that puts the responsibility on the victim to try harder not to be executed is victim blaming. No if you're going to change the venue you have to keep your argument. In that you're saying that the rapist shouldn't have raped that woman and should be punished. Thats the beginning and the end of your argument. On June 17 2017 10:02 Nebuchad wrote: What's your basis for that belief? Cause generally when people announce that they have a gun, I would expect that it's not so that they can give the officer fair warning before they shoot them with it... I don't really see any logical way you can come to the conclusion that the officer is supposed to feel in danger. Sounds like victim blaming of the highest order to me. I believe that the officer heard that he had a gun and associated his actions with hearing a gun and then saw a gun while the guy was reaching around his waist. | ||
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
On June 17 2017 09:48 Sermokala wrote: There was a series of events that happened that I belive gives him more then the benefit of the doubt that he didn't unreasonably fear for his live. Reaching for your wallet is not the time to announce that you have a gun. You confirm that the police officer knows you have a gun and where it is before you reach for anything. Telling someone that you have a gun and then reaching for something is what I believe is beyond a reasonable doubt something for someone to be afraid for their lives if they're a law enforcement officer. There are steps that we can do to reduce events like this happening. In school education on interacting with police officers while continuing education for police officers and continued reform of how an approach like the officer made in this case and what they say. All this takes money though which is hardest to come by in the areas where its needed most. A Mothers against drunk driving like campaign would be necessary. Simply blaming the people involved isn't going to get anywhere. People that are looking to kill police announce they've got a gun before going for it a lot? That doesn't seem reasonable at all. This case if exactly why people want special prosecutors involved when going after cops. This dude should be doing hard time. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On June 17 2017 10:06 Sermokala wrote: No if you're going to change the venue you have to keep your argument. In that you're saying that the rapist shouldn't have raped that woman and should be punished. Thats the beginning and the end of your argument. fine, the killer shouldn't have shot and killed the victim and should be punished. | ||
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KwarK
United States42649 Posts
On June 17 2017 10:06 Sermokala wrote: No if you're going to change the venue you have to keep your argument. In that you're saying that the rapist shouldn't have raped that woman and should be punished. Thats the beginning and the end of your argument. Correct, that is exactly what my argument is. Women should be able to go around freely without being told that they should have been more careful if they get raped. The blame for raping someone has to be placed on the rapist without any "but if she had only...". Similarly citizens should be able to have a perfectly reasonable interaction with the police without being told that they need to be more careful to avoid execution. The blame for executing someone has to be placed on the executioner without any "but if we had more classes on how to avoid provoking executioners..." bullshit. | ||
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KwarK
United States42649 Posts
On June 17 2017 10:08 zlefin wrote: fine, the killer shouldn't have shot and killed the victim and should be punished. It's odd. For whatever reason he's disagreeing with something other than what I'm saying and trying to force me to only make exactly what my argument was. Rapists are responsible for raping. Executioners are responsible for executing. Victims aren't responsible for being made victims. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13924 Posts
This is a separate argument from my the prosecution was weak because system is bad like that argument. | ||
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
On June 17 2017 10:10 KwarK wrote: It's odd. For whatever reason he's disagreeing with something other than what I'm saying and trying to force me to only make exactly what my argument was. Rapists are responsible for raping. Executioners are responsible for executing. Victims aren't responsible for being made victims. Listen, you know your husband has a temper. Why did you raise your voice? It's reasonable he's going to hit you if you do that. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
On June 17 2017 10:10 KwarK wrote: It's odd. For whatever reason he's disagreeing with something other than what I'm saying and trying to force me to only make exactly what my argument was. Rapists are responsible for raping. Executioners are responsible for executing. Victims aren't responsible for being made victims. I think he's not satisfied with the solutions that our side offers for the problem. Which is odd, because the solution that he has offered himself is almost exactly the same we have offered, better training, except he wants the citizen to train rather than the cops for some reason. | ||
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KwarK
United States42649 Posts
On June 17 2017 10:14 Sermokala wrote: yeah, I'm quite aware that victim blaming is pretty prevalent in society.But we do have education to help women not get raped and take steps as a society to lower rapes On June 17 2017 10:14 Sermokala wrote: because it's fucking victim blaming and college campuses are ahead of the curveexcept when its on a college campus for some reason. Somehow we're agreeing that it's victim blaming, the part you're disagreeing with is whether victim blaming is bad. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On June 17 2017 10:14 Sermokala wrote: But we do have education to help women not get raped and take steps as a society to lower rapes except when its on a college campus for some reason. We don't just target the rapists and start examining men and women who fit the rapist profile and go after them. We treat rape as a horrible act and take reasonable steps to lower it in society. But when it comes to interacting with police instead of doing things about it people just want to get angry and punish the cop and consider it the goal that police are punished for killing people. People are going to be killed by police. Its not something that will be stooped. we can do things to lower the amount of people that are killed or we can just complain that its a thing. This is a separate argument from my the prosecution was weak because system is bad like that argument. we're complaining because the officer was not held responsible for his actions. holding him responsible for his actions woudl do an awful lot to cut down on the killings. in general, hodling people responsible for murders reduces murders; that's why we have laws against murder. I don't really get why you would think that holding the offenders responsible for their actions doesn't count as "doing things about it". it really doesn't get any more basic and essential a form of "doing things about it" to hold the offender responsible. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On June 17 2017 10:14 Sermokala wrote: But we do have education to help women not get raped and take steps as a society to lower rapes except when its on a college campus for some reason. We don't just target the rapists and start examining men and women who fit the rapist profile and go after them. We treat rape as a horrible act and take reasonable steps to lower it in society. But when it comes to interacting with police instead of doing things about it people just want to get angry and punish the cop and consider it the goal that police are punished for killing people. People are going to be killed by police. Its not something that will be stooped. we can do things to lower the amount of people that are killed or we can just complain that its a thing. This is a separate argument from my the prosecution was weak because system is bad like that argument. Actually yes, getting shot by somebody isn't like being hit by a strike of lightning. This argument is supported by he fact that there are places where this actually doesn't happen | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On June 17 2017 10:14 Sermokala wrote: But we do have education to help women not get raped and take steps as a society to lower rapes except when its on a college campus for some reason. We don't just target the rapists and start examining men and women who fit the rapist profile and go after them. We treat rape as a horrible act and take reasonable steps to lower it in society. But when it comes to interacting with police instead of doing things about it people just want to get angry and punish the cop and consider it the goal that police are punished for killing people. People are going to be killed by police. Its not something that will be stooped. we can do things to lower the amount of people that are killed or we can just complain that its a thing. This is a separate argument from my the prosecution was weak because system is bad like that argument. I'm pretty sure that imprisoning officers for murder would cut down on the numbers of killing by police. do you disagree? | ||
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Sermokala
United States13924 Posts
On June 17 2017 10:17 KwarK wrote: yeah, I'm quite aware that victim blaming is pretty prevalent in society. because it's fucking victim blaming and college campuses are ahead of the curve Somehow we're agreeing that it's victim blaming, the part you're disagreeing with is whether victim blaming is bad. Except its not victim blaming and we disagree that it is. We're talking about enforcing law and order and expecting the people that enforce it to be more infallible then we are. Its not victim when there are real cases of people killing police officers at random traffic stops. Rape isn't the same because no one is hired to do a job where rape is a casual expectation of that job. There isn't an occupation where rape is an acceptable outcome. The USA isn't Germany congrats Nyxisto on discovering this. Imprisoning officers for murder would be good when its actual murder. If you want to imprision police officers every time they kill someone you won't find enough people to be police officers or worse they simply won't do anything and the law simply won't be enforced. He was held responsible for his actions He had a trial and a jury of his peers decided that he wasn't guilty of manslaughter. Do we have to throw out all law and order now? | ||
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KwarK
United States42649 Posts
On June 17 2017 10:42 Sermokala wrote: Except its not victim blaming and we disagree that it is. We're talking about enforcing law and order and expecting the people that enforce it to be more infallible then we are. Its not victim when there are real cases of people killing police officers at random traffic stops. Rape isn't the same because no one is hired to do a job where rape is a casual expectation of that job. There isn't an occupation where rape is an acceptable outcome. The USA isn't Germany congrats Nyxisto on discovering this. Imprisoning officers for murder would be good when its actual murder. If you want to imprision police officers every time they kill someone you won't find enough people to be police officers or worse they simply won't do anything and the law simply won't be enforced. He was held responsible for his actions He had a trial and a jury of his peers decided that he wasn't guilty of manslaughter. Do we have to throw out all law and order now? You specifically told us that the prosecutor threw the case. You can't backtrack and say that he was held accountable because he was tried in front of a jury of his peers and present yourself as the voice of law and order. The defence of "We held a show trial, that's justice, what more do you people want? Don't you care about justice at all? Should we throw out all law and order?" isn't really convincing. It is victim blaming, even if there are real cases of people killing police officers at traffic stops. This individual wasn't killing a police officer, they are the victim, focusing on what they could have done better to avoid being made a victim by the guy who chose to execute them is missing the point. | ||
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