EPTI wonder what the best way is to fix that; I mean, one can establish more rules/regulations/oversight/standards; but that can't change juries simply deciding to not find them guilty.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 7879
| Forum Index > Closed |
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
|
zlefin
United States7689 Posts
I wonder what the best way is to fix that; I mean, one can establish more rules/regulations/oversight/standards; but that can't change juries simply deciding to not find them guilty. | ||
|
Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On June 17 2017 07:46 On_Slaught wrote: We've had this discussion. Your average cop is a horrible shot and unsuited for a 'combat' situation. Which ofc begs the question; if they were all well trained (say Rangers or Seals level competency), then would we see more or less shootings? We all know the hammer and nails argument, but at the same time they would be less likely to get scared into violence so easily imo. Is this a combat situation or was the guy more "paper target" mode? | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States23675 Posts
On June 17 2017 07:38 NewSunshine wrote: I don't even see how he got off free. In my cursory research I found Philando got shot because he said he had a gun, but also that he never drew it. Even if it was subconscious, it sounds like a racially motivated shooting through and through, the man was clearly never going to be a threat to the officer. He was a cafeteria worker who was driving home with his girlfriend and her 4 year-old. Which aspect of his character justified the shooting? Apparently the officer was either fired or resigned, when it sounds by all accounts he should be in jail. They called it "voluntary separation" so he's free to be a cop in some other city. | ||
|
Gorsameth
Netherlands22125 Posts
On June 17 2017 07:42 Simberto wrote: That really, really shouldn't matter. He is supposed to be a professional policeman, not a scared teenager with a gun. This is such bullshit. There are obviously major problems going on with the US police that lead to way too many people being shot by them. I have no idea how exactly to fix those problems, but they definitively are not unfixable, as other countries don't have that problem. I'd guess stuff like better training, accountability, and actually punishing those who misbehave are good first steps. Every single time a cop shoots someone, there needs to be an independent investigation, and every time he fires his gun, there needs to be a justification. US cops just shoot way too much, too fast, and it seems to be ok for a lot of people. If i were a black dude being pulled over by cops in the US, i would fear for my life. That is wrong. I can't even imagine what that would be like. Cops are supposed to protect the population, but in the US, they seem to protect cops first, anyone else second. I am very glad that i don't have to fear for my life every time i meet a cop here in Germany. I don't exactly know what we do better than the US, but it must be something important, because german cops barely ever shoot anyone (Single digit amounts of people killed by police, about a hundred rounds fired in total throughout germany each year), and if they do, it is almost always completely justified. The US police kills about 10 times more people each year then the german police fires shots. (Granted, the US is also about 5 times bigger) US police will obviously have to use deadly force more often because criminals have a ridiculously easy access to guns. The problem, as you mentioned, is training. US police is obviously not trained to handle the environment they operate in, are not trained in de-escalation and are not trained in proper use of all the tools at their disposal. This leads to innocent people getting shot, which leads to people getting mad at cops (rightfully so), which leads to us vs them, which leads to more cops getting away with shooting innocents ect ect. How do you fix it? A complete restructuring would be needed, throw out the bad instructors, get good replacements (which means getting them from other countries who have shortages of their own) so you have a healthy batch of cops going in. Then you need to keep the current corrupt/misguided/shit cops from tainting your properly trained ones, keep it up for 30 odd years until you cycled out all your bad cops and then your good to go ^^ | ||
|
Gorsameth
Netherlands22125 Posts
On June 17 2017 07:46 On_Slaught wrote: We've had this discussion. Your average cop is a horrible shot and unsuited for a 'combat' situation. Which ofc begs the question; if they were all well trained (say Rangers or Seals level competency), then would we see more or less shootings? We all know the hammer and nails argument, but at the same time they would be less likely to get scared into violence so easily imo. You would have less shootings. As a soldier turned cop said in some interview. Soldiers walking the streets in a war zone have a higher threshold for the use of lethal force then a cop on US soil. That is fucked up. | ||
|
NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On June 17 2017 07:49 GreenHorizons wrote: They called it "voluntary separation" so he's free to be a cop in some other city. So essentially nothing was done to punish the officer's miscarriage of justice, pretty fucked up. There's reform that this country badly needs, and it's not the Republican's nightmarish health bill. | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States23675 Posts
On June 17 2017 07:55 NewSunshine wrote: So essentially nothing was done to punish the officer's miscarriage of justice, pretty fucked up. There's reform that this country badly needs, and it's not the Republican's nightmarish health bill. None for the officer, none for the department that agrees he didn't do anything wrong, none for the legal system that let him go free, but Philando got the death penalty for being black in public. | ||
|
On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On June 17 2017 07:49 Gahlo wrote: Is this a combat situation or was the guy more "paper target" mode? If the cop fears for their life to the point to the point where they pull a gun, then for all intents and purposes it is a combat situation. Lives are on the line and weapons are involved, no? I'm simply curious if anyone thinks that having more military style training would help or hurt situation like this. Both in terms of avoiding them and having them be less prone to killings when they do come up. Imo the exact problem is that cops have only really been exposed to the "paper target mode" and not real combat training. | ||
KwarK
United States43646 Posts
On June 17 2017 07:55 NewSunshine wrote: So essentially nothing was done to punish the officer's miscarriage of justice, pretty fucked up. There's reform that this country badly needs, and it's not the Republican's nightmarish health bill. Except Sessions has pledged himself to oppose Obama's "war on cops". Sessions is basically the archetype for the modern Southern white supremacist. It's not possible to name a race issue in which he isn't firmly on the side of "the status quo has gone too far, bring back the 50s". The Republicans are not interested in reforming the police, they're more concerned with how to stop incidents like this being reported. | ||
|
OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
| ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States23675 Posts
There's more obvious stuff like that if people are genuinely unaware of the improvements police have resisted for decades. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 17 2017 08:01 KwarK wrote: Except Sessions has pledged himself to oppose Obama's "war on cops". Sessions is basically the archetype for the modern Southern white supremacist. It's not possible to name a race issue in which he isn't firmly on the side of "the status quo has gone too far, bring back the 50s". The Republicans are not interested in reforming the police, they're more concerned with how to stop incidents like this being reported. Sessions is deeply committed to getting the federal government out of the racist's way. | ||
|
mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
7 US sailors missing, one injured. Somehow war ships getting entirely wrecked by cargo ships is rather common these years.... | ||
|
Sermokala
United States14104 Posts
I saw the trial and It was pretty much the case of the prosecution throwing a softball to get the officer off without charges to make their relationship with line police officers good. little things like oddly fighting things like having the complete recordings released to the jury and otherwise a weak case to present overall. Personally as I've always known more then the media says about the case I knew it wasn't going anywhere legaly and that it was a fair shooting on his part. Yanez is the furthest thing from a racist and the department he was hired by has a well above average record with shootings and crime | ||
|
On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
As somebody who hopes to be a Prosecutor one day, that rubs me the wrong way. | ||
|
killa_robot
Canada1884 Posts
On June 17 2017 07:46 On_Slaught wrote: We've had this discussion. Your average cop is a horrible shot and unsuited for a 'combat' situation. Which ofc begs the question; if they were all well trained (say Rangers or Seals level competency), then would we see more or less shootings? We all know the hammer and nails argument, but at the same time they would be less likely to get scared into violence so easily imo. You'd see more because that's what they're trained to do. The only way cops are going to to be less likely to shoot someone is if they don't feel threatened. Keep in mind there's a big difference between "I totally thought I was going to die" and "Well there was the possibility". There's always going to be the possibility so long as guns are so prevalent in the states, thus police are always going to be allowed to use it as an excuse. All it takes is for them to be like "Well he did have a gun/something that looks like a gun" for their excuse to be seen as valid. Something that will always be true given, you know, America. | ||
|
Sermokala
United States14104 Posts
On June 17 2017 09:25 On_Slaught wrote: So you're saying it was a bum/fraudulent prosecution but that's ok because the guy is innocent so the result is correct? As somebody who hopes to be a Prosecutor one day, that rubs me the wrong way. No I'm saying it was a bum/fraudulent prosecution and that he was innocent. It should rub you the wrong way but I feel bad for you because I don't see a better way for it. Having police being on the frontlines of every crime investigation means that they are involved with every crime before a prosecutor is ever involved. Not to mention how many times a police officer is needed to say guard a crime scene or produce testimony. Having the police involved like this compromises a prosecutor no matter how well intention-ed or well moraled they might be. Basicaly its in their best interests to take an L in these cases so that they don't lose out on other cases. Not a judgement on people but on the system itself. | ||
|
zlefin
United States7689 Posts
and what would constitute innocence? at any rate; we certainly do need independent prosecutors to look at police misconduct cases; cuz having the local da's work on it too oftfen means they tank the case. and tanking the case is bad; sadly they never seem to get in trouble for intentionally tanking a case; I guess everyone just looks the other way. | ||
|
Gorsameth
Netherlands22125 Posts
On June 17 2017 09:18 Sermokala wrote: So I actually knew the officer involved in this recent shooting pretty well. Its been really werid seeing this guy I know in the new for something like this. I saw the trial and It was pretty much the case of the prosecution throwing a softball to get the officer off without charges to make their relationship with line police officers good. little things like oddly fighting things like having the complete recordings released to the jury and otherwise a weak case to present overall. Personally as I've always known more then the media says about the case I knew it wasn't going anywhere legaly and that it was a fair shooting on his part. Yanez is the furthest thing from a racist and the department he was hired by has a well above average record with shootings and crime A real upstanding guy that put 7 bullets into an innocent man and got away with it. Fortunately he had a crooked prosecutor to help him prove that he was scarred of a black guy so he had to kill him infront of his wife and kid. God bless America. Remember all those lone wolfs who go on a killing spree and when they interview his neighbours they talk about how he was a quiet nice guy? Your the neighbour. | ||
|
Sermokala
United States14104 Posts
On June 17 2017 09:40 zlefin wrote: What makes you so sure he was innocent? and what would constitute innocence? at any rate; we certainly do need independent prosecutors to look at police misconduct cases; cuz having the local da's work on it too oftfen means they tank the case. There was a series of events that happened that I belive gives him more then the benefit of the doubt that he didn't unreasonably fear for his live. Reaching for your wallet is not the time to announce that you have a gun. You confirm that the police officer knows you have a gun and where it is before you reach for anything. Telling someone that you have a gun and then reaching for something is what I believe is beyond a reasonable doubt something for someone to be afraid for their lives if they're a law enforcement officer. There are steps that we can do to reduce events like this happening. In school education on interacting with police officers while continuing education for police officers and continued reform of how an approach like the officer made in this case and what they say. All this takes money though which is hardest to come by in the areas where its needed most. A Mothers against drunk driving like campaign would be necessary. Simply blaming the people involved isn't going to get anywhere. | ||
| ||
