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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
April 19 2017 23:14 GMT
#147201
On April 20 2017 07:30 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I find this mildly amusing. Maybe don't vote for the exxon CEO with ties to Russia next time.


Well from a business POV it would be reckless for Exxon not to seek to gain an exception here.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Zaros
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom3692 Posts
April 19 2017 23:18 GMT
#147202
On April 20 2017 07:40 Krikkitone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2017 06:51 pmh wrote:
On April 20 2017 02:31 KwarK wrote:
You're going to increasingly absurd lengths to try and explain why your description of the Kim regime being doomed, the people deserting the regime en masse, the state losing control of the country, the collapse of the military and state forces, the military going rogue and the end of North Korea as a state, all of which happen due to internal collapse, does not amount to a revolution.


This entire argument could be settled if you'd just fucking admit that you were wrong when you said that a trade embargo would cause the collapse of the Korean state instead of this bullshit where you go "I never said it would collapse, I just described a collapse and implied that the things that happen when a state collapses would result from an embargo".


I don't know exactly how much north korea depends on trade with china but a full trade embargo including china would probably undermine the state in the long run. If only because it is not only the population that would loose resources, the state itself would also loose resources undermining their capability to control the population.
It wont be a revolution today or next year, decades of indoctrinating the population wont allow for that. But if it where to continue for 5-10 years then it could. I doubt it will be the population who would revolt though,but other high ranking officials might stage a coup.
But all this is kinda irrelevant I think. China does not want the regime to collapse at, least not now. They would not allow democracy in north korea,it would remain a communist state so they would have to find another leader to takes kim,s place. And a credible leader to take kims place is not that easy to find,it might even be that the population of north korea would revolt against such a move! (I have no clue how far the indoctrination has gone and how loyal the population is to kim). So while probably not to found of kim particular,he is for now the only viable option there is for china.
For the usa to think that china would wilingly give up their influence over north korea and allow it to become democratic and reunite with the south,i think that is just silly tbh. Why would china ever do that? I expect it will be 30-50 years at least before reunification but lets hope I am wrong.


More likely would be North Korea "reuniting" with China in the Hong Kong model.


China might let the south and north reunite if it had greater influence over the south which it is gradually getting.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
April 19 2017 23:33 GMT
#147203
By the way, is renegotiating NAFTA still a thing or is that project dead too?
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-19 23:41:47
April 19 2017 23:41 GMT
#147204
On April 20 2017 08:33 LegalLord wrote:
By the way, is renegotiating NAFTA still a thing or is that project dead too?

I've heard no news about it; but it could be taken up at any time, and they been doing a lot of other stuff. so unclear whether it's dead or just on the back burner.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
April 19 2017 23:41 GMT
#147205
On April 20 2017 08:33 LegalLord wrote:
By the way, is renegotiating NAFTA still a thing or is that project dead too?

Trump mentioned something about Canadian milk, if that counts for anything.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 20 2017 00:05 GMT
#147206
A Kremlin-backed think tank’s plan to influence the 2016 U.S. presidential race in Donald Trump’s favor was distributed at the highest levels of the Russian government, Reuters reported Wednesday.

A handful of current and former U.S. officials told Reuters that the first document, compiled by the Russian Institute for Strategic Studies in June, urged the Kremlin to wage a propaganda war on social media and state-backed media outlets promoting a U.S. candidate who supported better relations with Russia. Another paper, released in October when pundits and polls were predicting a Hillary Clinton victory, argued in favor of promoting claims about voter fraud to stoke questions about the legitimacy of the election results.

President Vladimir Putin’s office appoints the retired Russian intelligence officials who work at the institute, according to Reuters.

The Kremlin has denied any involvement in the U.S. election, with Putin calling such allegations “lies” used to promote “domestic American political agendas.” The Institute and Kremlin did not respond to Reuters’ request for comment.

These documents are in line with the U.S. intelligence community’s assessment of how exactly Russia took steps to sway the election, which included the promotion of “fake news” stories, use of bots to push that false information, and cyber-hacking campaigns against Democratic targets. The Senate and House Intelligence Communities are currently investigating the extent of Russia’s interference into the presidential race, and whether Trump staffers collaborated with Russian officials to do so.

“Putin had the objective in mind all along, and he asked the institute to draw him a road map,” a former senior U.S. intelligence official told Reuters.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-20 00:20:24
April 20 2017 00:19 GMT
#147207
On April 20 2017 09:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
A Kremlin-backed think tank’s plan to influence the 2016 U.S. presidential race in Donald Trump’s favor was distributed at the highest levels of the Russian government, Reuters reported Wednesday.

A handful of current and former U.S. officials told Reuters that the first document, compiled by the Russian Institute for Strategic Studies in June, urged the Kremlin to wage a propaganda war on social media and state-backed media outlets promoting a U.S. candidate who supported better relations with Russia. Another paper, released in October when pundits and polls were predicting a Hillary Clinton victory, argued in favor of promoting claims about voter fraud to stoke questions about the legitimacy of the election results.

President Vladimir Putin’s office appoints the retired Russian intelligence officials who work at the institute, according to Reuters.

The Kremlin has denied any involvement in the U.S. election, with Putin calling such allegations “lies” used to promote “domestic American political agendas.” The Institute and Kremlin did not respond to Reuters’ request for comment.

These documents are in line with the U.S. intelligence community’s assessment of how exactly Russia took steps to sway the election, which included the promotion of “fake news” stories, use of bots to push that false information, and cyber-hacking campaigns against Democratic targets. The Senate and House Intelligence Communities are currently investigating the extent of Russia’s interference into the presidential race, and whether Trump staffers collaborated with Russian officials to do so.

“Putin had the objective in mind all along, and he asked the institute to draw him a road map,” a former senior U.S. intelligence official told Reuters.


Source


It's no big deal, let's just get along with Russia. We can hope that the all-out assault on our country doesn't happen again.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15736 Posts
April 20 2017 00:20 GMT
#147208
On April 20 2017 08:33 LegalLord wrote:
By the way, is renegotiating NAFTA still a thing or is that project dead too?


No Tweets about it = not a priority.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 20 2017 00:21 GMT
#147209
President Donald Trump is expected to sign an executive order as early as Thursday directing the Commerce Department to investigate whether steel imports into the U.S. should be blocked on national security grounds, according to sources familiar with the plan.

A number of steel industry executives have been invited to the White House for an event with Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross. Representatives from ArcelorMittal, Nucor, U.S. Steel, AK Steel and Timken are expected, along with the president of the United Steelworkers union. China’s excess capacity to produce steel is seen as a long-term threat to the U.S. steel industry’s viability, but it’s unclear if the order will single out any country or be global in scope.

The proposed order would direct Ross to launch an investigation under a provision of U.S. trade law that requires the Commerce secretary to report to the president within 270 days whether a certain product is being imported in sufficient quantities or under such circumstances that it threatens to impair national security.

The White House did not respond to a request for comment.

The president then has another 90 days to decide whether to “adjust" imports or take some other non-trade related action.

The United States imported about 30 million metric tons of steel in 2016, down from 35 million in 2015, for use in a variety of sectors including buildings, bridges, water and sewage plants and oil and natural gas production. Major foreign suppliers include Canada, Brazil, South Korea, Mexico, Japan and Germany.

China is relatively far down on the list because of a number of U.S. countervailing and anti-dumping duty orders already in place on its exports.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-20 00:24:08
April 20 2017 00:22 GMT
#147210
One woman sued Donald Trump’s Miami resort saying she lost her job because she got pregnant.

Two others claimed they were fired after complaining that co-workers sexually harassed them.

And a number of women testified in a lawsuit that Trump himself repeatedly instructed managers to hire younger, prettier workers at his Los Angeles golf club.

The release of a video Friday showing Trump’s sexist remarks in 2005 has created a firestorm of controversy that threatens to derail his campaign. But an ongoing USA TODAY investigation of Trump’s 4,000-plus lawsuits shows that he and his companies have been accused for years of mistreating women. Allegations outlined in at least 20 separate lawsuits accuse Trump and managers at his companies of discriminating against women, ignoring sexual harassment complaints and even participating in the harassment themselves.


www.usatoday.com (10/9/2016)
Lmui
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada6221 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-20 01:01:44
April 20 2017 01:01 GMT
#147211
On April 20 2017 08:41 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2017 08:33 LegalLord wrote:
By the way, is renegotiating NAFTA still a thing or is that project dead too?

Trump mentioned something about Canadian milk, if that counts for anything.


CBC had a bunch of articles on it:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/trump-h1b-visa-order-1.4073587
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-dairy-farmer-reacts-trump-comments-1.4075045
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/canada-ambassador-to-us-pushes-back-on-dairy-1.4075983

That's all I've really heard as well as the lumber thing that's been going on for decades now.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
April 20 2017 01:09 GMT
#147212
Did anyone ever notice that Bill O'Reilly strongly resembles Creedy, the head of the secret police in V for Vendetta?

Would be cooler if he were the propagandist instead but such is life.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-20 01:14:51
April 20 2017 01:13 GMT
#147213
Um... Wasn't this one of the main reasons why it was believed that women should not be allowed on Subs in the first place? They are already pressed for space as it is...

PROVIDENCE, R.I. (AP) — Every submarine in the U.S. fleet was designed with the height, reach and strength of men in mind, from the way valves are placed to how display screens are angled.

That's going to change.

With women now serving aboard submarines, defense contractor Electric Boat is designing what will be the first Navy subs built specifically to accommodate female crew members.

The designers are doing the obvious things, such as adding more doors and washrooms to create separate sleeping and bathing areas for men and women and to give them more privacy. But they are also making more subtle modifications that may not have been in everyone's periscope when the Navy admitted women into the Silent Service.

For example, they are lowering some overhead valves and making them easier to turn, and installing steps in front of the triple-high bunk beds and stacked laundry machines.

The first vessel built with some of the new features, the future USS New Jersey, is expected to be delivered to the Navy in 2021.

The Navy lifted its ban on women on submarines in 2010, starting with officers. About 80 female officers and roughly 50 enlisted women are now serving on subs, and their numbers are expected to climb into the hundreds over the next few years.

For now, the Navy is retrofitting existing subs with extra doors and designated washrooms to accommodate women. But Electric Boat in Groton, Connecticut, is at work on a redesign of the Navy's Virginia-class fast-attack subs and is also developing a brand-new class of ballistic-missile submarines, relying on body measurements for both men and women.

"We have a clean sheet of paper, so from the ground up, we'll optimize for both men and women," said Brian Wilson, Electric Boat director of the new ballistic-missile sub program.

Electric Boat officials had no immediate estimate of how much the modifications will cost.

As anyone who watches war movies knows, submariners are always turning valves, whether to operate machinery, redistribute water between tanks or isolate part of a system that has been damaged.

On the Columbia-class boats, valves will generally be placed lower, Wilson said. Sometimes there will be an extension handle, and some will be easier to turn. Sailors will be able to connect their masks into the emergency air system at the side of passageways, instead of overhead.

Emergency air masks are being moved on fast-attack submarines, too, but the bulk of the changes on those subs are to ensure privacy.

Seats in the control room on the ballistic-missile submarines will adjust forward a little more so everyone can touch each display and reach every joystick. Steps will be added so shorter people can climb into the top bunk or see into the washers and dryers, since clothes that get stuck in the machines are a fire hazard.

The first Columbia-class ballistic-missile sub is scheduled to join the fleet in 2031.

At 5-foot-6, Lt. Marquette Leveque, one of the first women to serve on a submarine, said that she didn't have any trouble reaching valves and other equipment but that the ergonomic changes will be helpful for shorter crewmates.

Leveque was assigned to a compartment with two other female officers on the USS Wyoming. They shared a washroom with male officers. A sign on the door could be flipped to show whether a man or woman was using it.

With so few women on board, the timesharing worked, she said. But with more on the way, the need for separate spaces is greater, she added.

"Privacy is important anywhere you are," she said. "We live on this boat, as well as work there."


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11409 Posts
April 20 2017 01:41 GMT
#147214
On April 20 2017 10:01 Lmui wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2017 08:41 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On April 20 2017 08:33 LegalLord wrote:
By the way, is renegotiating NAFTA still a thing or is that project dead too?

Trump mentioned something about Canadian milk, if that counts for anything.


CBC had a bunch of articles on it:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/trump-h1b-visa-order-1.4073587
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-dairy-farmer-reacts-trump-comments-1.4075045
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/canada-ambassador-to-us-pushes-back-on-dairy-1.4075983

That's all I've really heard as well as the lumber thing that's been going on for decades now.

We've also pulled out Brian Mulroney to try and convince his mansion neighbour (in a manner of speaking) that the NAFTA thing he helped craft is still a good thing. We'll see how that one works. Kinda odd seeing the goto guy for the Liberals be an old Conservative, but I guess there is a bigger overlap among the red Tory's of the old PC party. That and the Liberals really don't want NAFTA to go down on their watch, so they'll pull out whoever.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
April 20 2017 01:41 GMT
#147215
I wonder what the tradeoff rate is on cost/space compared to the advantage of having a wider pool of candidates to choose from for positions. given the cost of a ship, having the best people for a crew is quite valuable.
space is tight on a sub, but it may not be quite as tight as it used to be in the past; raelly need more facts to decide.

It does sound like some of the ergonomic issues would help for short men as well.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
April 20 2017 01:47 GMT
#147216
On April 20 2017 10:13 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Um... Wasn't this one of the main reasons why it was believed that women should not be allowed on Subs in the first place? They are already pressed for space as it is...
Show nested quote +

PROVIDENCE, R.I. (AP) — Every submarine in the U.S. fleet was designed with the height, reach and strength of men in mind, from the way valves are placed to how display screens are angled.

That's going to change.

With women now serving aboard submarines, defense contractor Electric Boat is designing what will be the first Navy subs built specifically to accommodate female crew members.

The designers are doing the obvious things, such as adding more doors and washrooms to create separate sleeping and bathing areas for men and women and to give them more privacy. But they are also making more subtle modifications that may not have been in everyone's periscope when the Navy admitted women into the Silent Service.

For example, they are lowering some overhead valves and making them easier to turn, and installing steps in front of the triple-high bunk beds and stacked laundry machines.

The first vessel built with some of the new features, the future USS New Jersey, is expected to be delivered to the Navy in 2021.

The Navy lifted its ban on women on submarines in 2010, starting with officers. About 80 female officers and roughly 50 enlisted women are now serving on subs, and their numbers are expected to climb into the hundreds over the next few years.

For now, the Navy is retrofitting existing subs with extra doors and designated washrooms to accommodate women. But Electric Boat in Groton, Connecticut, is at work on a redesign of the Navy's Virginia-class fast-attack subs and is also developing a brand-new class of ballistic-missile submarines, relying on body measurements for both men and women.

"We have a clean sheet of paper, so from the ground up, we'll optimize for both men and women," said Brian Wilson, Electric Boat director of the new ballistic-missile sub program.

Electric Boat officials had no immediate estimate of how much the modifications will cost.

As anyone who watches war movies knows, submariners are always turning valves, whether to operate machinery, redistribute water between tanks or isolate part of a system that has been damaged.

On the Columbia-class boats, valves will generally be placed lower, Wilson said. Sometimes there will be an extension handle, and some will be easier to turn. Sailors will be able to connect their masks into the emergency air system at the side of passageways, instead of overhead.

Emergency air masks are being moved on fast-attack submarines, too, but the bulk of the changes on those subs are to ensure privacy.

Seats in the control room on the ballistic-missile submarines will adjust forward a little more so everyone can touch each display and reach every joystick. Steps will be added so shorter people can climb into the top bunk or see into the washers and dryers, since clothes that get stuck in the machines are a fire hazard.

The first Columbia-class ballistic-missile sub is scheduled to join the fleet in 2031.

At 5-foot-6, Lt. Marquette Leveque, one of the first women to serve on a submarine, said that she didn't have any trouble reaching valves and other equipment but that the ergonomic changes will be helpful for shorter crewmates.

Leveque was assigned to a compartment with two other female officers on the USS Wyoming. They shared a washroom with male officers. A sign on the door could be flipped to show whether a man or woman was using it.

With so few women on board, the timesharing worked, she said. But with more on the way, the need for separate spaces is greater, she added.

"Privacy is important anywhere you are," she said. "We live on this boat, as well as work there."


Source


I always thought it was more that they didn't want mixed crews on subs as opposed to a matter of design. Should be easy to redesign though, I mean it's not like they have to find a way to make it so they don't have another david robinson situation
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43542 Posts
April 20 2017 01:48 GMT
#147217
Any woman who can't keep her cool in the proximity of dicks, or man who can't keep his cool in the proximity of boobs, has absolutely no place working on a nuclear submarine.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35167 Posts
April 20 2017 01:52 GMT
#147218
At that point, wouldn't it be more efficient to have some women only crewed subs?
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24753 Posts
April 20 2017 01:52 GMT
#147219
It's not necessarily about having a wider pool of candidates to choose from. While that's a potential benefit, it's more a matter of we don't screen people by gender for jobs anymore unless absolutely necessary, and with proper planning/design it isn't necessary anymore for modern subs. Space is definitely less of a problem now than it was on WW2 era subs. Other opponents of integration are concerned with men and women being in a confined space for potentially several months at a time without being able to leave, but they already do that on the space station!
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
April 20 2017 01:57 GMT
#147220
On April 20 2017 10:48 KwarK wrote:
Any woman who can't keep her cool in the proximity of dicks, or man who can't keep his cool in the proximity of boobs, has absolutely no place working on a nuclear submarine.

Presumably Bill Clinton had no place being in charge of whether to use the nukes in those submarines either, then.
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