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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On February 10 2017 08:27 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2017 08:21 Plansix wrote:On February 10 2017 07:38 Falling wrote:
Only Milo, in what way- the protests or the riots? Because the protests are absolutely happening to more than just Milo- bringing in amplification to blare white noise to drown out speeches or pulling fire alarms to shut down free speech conferences. That's more than Milo. The Berkley riot? Sure that's unique to Milo so far, but as antagonizing as he is, I have heard nothing that warrants or justifies a violent response. That has nothing to do with being apathetic or indifferent. He can be strongly and rigorously opposed without violence and without shutting him out of places to speak. Personally, a lot of my progressive friends have lost faith in any form of rational, serious discussion about issues or policy. Centrist democrats too. It is a feeling that talking has not worked. Explaining has not worked. Debate has not worked. There is a feeling that any debate with the "conservative side" is in bad faith. That they will just lie, deny or rely on post-fact politics to promote their message. My feeling is that people are finding other ways to get their point across. On February 10 2017 08:17 On_Slaught wrote:
I hope the 9th rules against him just so we get another damaging tweet. Just more evidence to use in his eventual impeachment hearings. Your wish has been granted. I would also point out the DOJ's request was stupid. They wanted a TRO against a 14 day TRO. You can't stay a stay. They could have just waited until the next hearing, but DT wanted it removed. That is quite the elitist and arrogant attitude you have there, and it doesn't even justify the reaction on college campuses. Just declare your opponents as arguing in "bad faith" and then shut down debate and resort to violence. Great strategy.
But you will notice how you completely disregarded their views and blamed them? And me by extension. This is the root of the problem, we are not ready for good faith debate. Both sides have lost faith in the other. We are just being honest about it now.
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If Milo wrote A Modest Proposal it would be about something like advocating we should stone gays to death.
Thing is, that's not so funny or illuminating when gays are actually being stoned to death and other people are actually advocating it. Satire works better when you don't say "jokes on you, I was only pretending to be like all those other people!"
I mean Swift's whole point in AMP was to de-normalize treating the Irish like animals. And he succeeded.
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On February 10 2017 08:29 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2017 08:21 Plansix wrote:On February 10 2017 07:38 Falling wrote:
Only Milo, in what way- the protests or the riots? Because the protests are absolutely happening to more than just Milo- bringing in amplification to blare white noise to drown out speeches or pulling fire alarms to shut down free speech conferences. That's more than Milo. The Berkley riot? Sure that's unique to Milo so far, but as antagonizing as he is, I have heard nothing that warrants or justifies a violent response. That has nothing to do with being apathetic or indifferent. He can be strongly and rigorously opposed without violence and without shutting him out of places to speak. Personally, a lot of my progressive friends have lost faith in any form of rational, serious discussion about issues or policy. Centrist democrats too. It is a feeling that talking has not worked. Explaining has not worked. Debate has not worked. There is a feeling that any debate with the "conservative side" is in bad faith. That they will just lie, deny or rely on post-fact politics to promote their message. My feeling is that people are finding other ways to get their point across. On February 10 2017 08:17 On_Slaught wrote:
I hope the 9th rules against him just so we get another damaging tweet. Just more evidence to use in his eventual impeachment hearings. Your wish has been granted. I would also point out the DOJ's request was stupid. They wanted a TRO against a 14 day TRO. You can't stay a stay. They could have just waited until the next hearing, but DT wanted it removed. I mean, just look back to the discussion earlier today where, once again, we had to try and prove that PP is in fact not a fetus selling criminal cartel. People only have so much patience for strait up stupidity.
Yeah, that discussion was scary. I don't know if i am willing to believe that people like LS exist. I think I am better off hoping that he was just trolling you guys.
I am really scared by the idea that people exist who live in a completely different parallel world. And not by dictatorial force in North Korea, but by their own choice in the USA. There is no big government with an intrusive propaganda ministry controlling the media, just people self-selecting the crazy and ignoring everything that disagrees with their world view.
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The Supreme Court has spoken very little on how executive immigration power and 1st Amendment rights interact with one another, and it looks like it's about time they said something 
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On February 10 2017 08:20 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Appeals Court rules against trump Admin.
Them fuckin so-called judges man. Ruining life for everyone.
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We were already in court?
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The reasoning used plus it being unanimously decided is a big blow to the administration.
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On February 10 2017 08:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2017 08:27 biology]major wrote:On February 10 2017 08:21 Plansix wrote:On February 10 2017 07:38 Falling wrote:
Only Milo, in what way- the protests or the riots? Because the protests are absolutely happening to more than just Milo- bringing in amplification to blare white noise to drown out speeches or pulling fire alarms to shut down free speech conferences. That's more than Milo. The Berkley riot? Sure that's unique to Milo so far, but as antagonizing as he is, I have heard nothing that warrants or justifies a violent response. That has nothing to do with being apathetic or indifferent. He can be strongly and rigorously opposed without violence and without shutting him out of places to speak. Personally, a lot of my progressive friends have lost faith in any form of rational, serious discussion about issues or policy. Centrist democrats too. It is a feeling that talking has not worked. Explaining has not worked. Debate has not worked. There is a feeling that any debate with the "conservative side" is in bad faith. That they will just lie, deny or rely on post-fact politics to promote their message. My feeling is that people are finding other ways to get their point across. On February 10 2017 08:17 On_Slaught wrote:
I hope the 9th rules against him just so we get another damaging tweet. Just more evidence to use in his eventual impeachment hearings. Your wish has been granted. I would also point out the DOJ's request was stupid. They wanted a TRO against a 14 day TRO. You can't stay a stay. They could have just waited until the next hearing, but DT wanted it removed. That is quite the elitist and arrogant attitude you have there, and it doesn't even justify the reaction on college campuses. Just declare your opponents as arguing in "bad faith" and then shut down debate and resort to violence. Great strategy. But you will notice how you completely disregarded their views and blamed them? And me by extension. This is the root of the problem, we are not ready for good faith debate. Both sides have lost faith in the other. We are just being honest about it now.
You basically said conservatives are irrational and not worth arguing with, and it is better to find "other ways" to get their point across. You are the problem. I'm not about to defend violence, or banning someone from speaking simply because I disagree with them, or that I consider them arguing in bad faith.
The majority of the people in this thread who voted on my poll thought a woman should be able to abort a pregnancy at any time for any reason... That is a radical, extreme, progressive opinion rooted in ideological dogma the exact same way a conservative would say "life starts at conception". However if someone came to a college campus to give a talk on such a ridiculous position, banning that person from speaking, or starting fires and damaging buildings no matter how much I disagree is not something that should occur. We can end the debate by calling each other fascists, but we still have rights to speak and speak freely.
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I don't see Justice Roberts being particularly fond of Trump's attitude towards the courts, this could get really juicy
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On February 10 2017 08:11 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2017 07:45 Danglars wrote:On February 10 2017 07:22 ZasZ. wrote:
Yeah I would normally be on board with the Danglars "let him speak" approach, but Milo has always walked the fine line between exercising his first amendment rights, and directly inciting harassment and violence on other people. There have been many cases where "letting him speak" resulted in real danger to his targets. In my eyes this is the difference between protesting Milo and protesting someone like Ben Shapiro, who is just a conservative commentator. I'm seeing a whole lot of violence/threats of violence the other way. But to your point, the result is a nanny state that dictates a low bar for "inciting violence," since children are the ones that think the man is calling for physical assaults. "Directly inciting harassment" is also in the eyes of the beholder; criticizing your elected leaders and public figures is an American tradition for centuries. Your fine line shows no respect for the concept of free speech whatsoever, in all honesty. The only legitimate other side should be along the lines of "will someone rid me of this troublesome priest." And like the before-linked essays show, there's a very tepid response on the topic of causing violence against an invited speaker in this very thread. Good luck finding a moral basis to argue he's directly causing violence if you excuse violence against him. The only difference between Ben Shapiro and Milo should be how much you find yourself agreeing with them, not which one is allowed to have rights and which topics he's allowed to speak on and how passionate and flippant he's allowed to be before your fine line dividing civil rights from permissive censorship is crossed. No one is arguing violence is the solution. Just the the natural outcome of not giving a shit about other peoples fears or concerns. People like Bannon, Milo, Richard Spencer, David Duke and others all feeling emboldened and in power scares people. And it has become abundantly clear that no one gives a shit. The election pretty much proved that. It is naive to think that things would get less aggressive and violent after electing Trump.
Justifying violence is exactly what the essays that started this topic did. Now, I forget if you responded to Nevuk's essays, so I don't know if you also personally justify the violence. It wasn't a natural outcome collection of essays.
Just like the natural outcome of disrupting a campus group's speakers should be arrests and prosecution. I've got no problems with one natural outcome until the first natural outcome becomes as rare as protestors blocking black students from going to school.
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On February 10 2017 08:40 farvacola wrote:I don't see Justice Roberts being particularly fond of Trump's attitude towards the courts, this could get really juicy
I'm pretty sure the disdain for Trumps attitude towards the justice system is unanimous amongst the Supreme Court (and every layer below that)
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
i mean, this milo and his fans situation just reflects the mainstreaming of what used to be a niche issue, reaction against critical theory and some of the politics/activities around it.
there's obviously a lot of misunderstanding and caricaturing going on wrt what the milo crowd would call sjw and cultural elites etc.
effective, position changing conversation is possible, but there are some particular conditions that a typical exchange on this topic doesn't satisfy. but these conditions are easy to identify once we understand the thinking of both sides, and the path of development of a typical person holding that view. i'm too lazy to specify but i'll just say that given the strong path dependence going on with advocates of both sides, each see the other from a perspective that the other cannot access. the acrimonious type of conversations involved reminds me of the logical form of a clogged toilet or the plot design of a greasy deep fried korean drama.
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On February 10 2017 08:40 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2017 08:32 Plansix wrote:On February 10 2017 08:27 biology]major wrote:On February 10 2017 08:21 Plansix wrote:On February 10 2017 07:38 Falling wrote:
Only Milo, in what way- the protests or the riots? Because the protests are absolutely happening to more than just Milo- bringing in amplification to blare white noise to drown out speeches or pulling fire alarms to shut down free speech conferences. That's more than Milo. The Berkley riot? Sure that's unique to Milo so far, but as antagonizing as he is, I have heard nothing that warrants or justifies a violent response. That has nothing to do with being apathetic or indifferent. He can be strongly and rigorously opposed without violence and without shutting him out of places to speak. Personally, a lot of my progressive friends have lost faith in any form of rational, serious discussion about issues or policy. Centrist democrats too. It is a feeling that talking has not worked. Explaining has not worked. Debate has not worked. There is a feeling that any debate with the "conservative side" is in bad faith. That they will just lie, deny or rely on post-fact politics to promote their message. My feeling is that people are finding other ways to get their point across. On February 10 2017 08:17 On_Slaught wrote:
I hope the 9th rules against him just so we get another damaging tweet. Just more evidence to use in his eventual impeachment hearings. Your wish has been granted. I would also point out the DOJ's request was stupid. They wanted a TRO against a 14 day TRO. You can't stay a stay. They could have just waited until the next hearing, but DT wanted it removed. That is quite the elitist and arrogant attitude you have there, and it doesn't even justify the reaction on college campuses. Just declare your opponents as arguing in "bad faith" and then shut down debate and resort to violence. Great strategy. But you will notice how you completely disregarded their views and blamed them? And me by extension. This is the root of the problem, we are not ready for good faith debate. Both sides have lost faith in the other. We are just being honest about it now. You basically said conservatives are irrational and not worth arguing with, and it is better to find "other ways" to get their point across. You are the problem. I'm not about to defend violence, or banning someone from speaking simply because I disagree with them, or that I consider them arguing in bad faith. The majority of the people in this thread who voted on my poll thought a woman should be able to abort a pregnancy at any time for any reason... That is a radical, extreme, progressive opinion rooted in ideological dogma the exact same way a conservative would say "life starts at conception". However if someone came to a college campus to give a talk on such a ridiculous position, banning that person from speaking, or starting fires and damaging buildings no matter how much I disagree is not something that should occur. We can end the debate by calling each other fascists, but we still have rights to speak and speak freely.
I agree with what you are saying, we are not ready for a good faith debate. You know how I know this? If you go to my initial comment, you will see I was talking about people I spoke and know, not myself. I provided my impressions of their feelings. I didn't say I held these views or agreed completely. But to you, I am the problem.
People aren't here for debate, they are here to watch people get "owned". That is why they go to Milo. It is entertainment. Debate isn't about exploring the issues, its about who rekts who. Its points. Youtube clips. Memes. That isn't good faith debate. And some people are tired of being the punchline.
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Everyone speaks the language of work, oneofthem 
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Every single legally-minded person in this thread takes exception to Trump's attitude towards the courts.
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On February 10 2017 08:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2017 08:40 biology]major wrote:On February 10 2017 08:32 Plansix wrote:On February 10 2017 08:27 biology]major wrote:On February 10 2017 08:21 Plansix wrote:On February 10 2017 07:38 Falling wrote:
Only Milo, in what way- the protests or the riots? Because the protests are absolutely happening to more than just Milo- bringing in amplification to blare white noise to drown out speeches or pulling fire alarms to shut down free speech conferences. That's more than Milo. The Berkley riot? Sure that's unique to Milo so far, but as antagonizing as he is, I have heard nothing that warrants or justifies a violent response. That has nothing to do with being apathetic or indifferent. He can be strongly and rigorously opposed without violence and without shutting him out of places to speak. Personally, a lot of my progressive friends have lost faith in any form of rational, serious discussion about issues or policy. Centrist democrats too. It is a feeling that talking has not worked. Explaining has not worked. Debate has not worked. There is a feeling that any debate with the "conservative side" is in bad faith. That they will just lie, deny or rely on post-fact politics to promote their message. My feeling is that people are finding other ways to get their point across. On February 10 2017 08:17 On_Slaught wrote:
I hope the 9th rules against him just so we get another damaging tweet. Just more evidence to use in his eventual impeachment hearings. Your wish has been granted. I would also point out the DOJ's request was stupid. They wanted a TRO against a 14 day TRO. You can't stay a stay. They could have just waited until the next hearing, but DT wanted it removed. That is quite the elitist and arrogant attitude you have there, and it doesn't even justify the reaction on college campuses. Just declare your opponents as arguing in "bad faith" and then shut down debate and resort to violence. Great strategy. But you will notice how you completely disregarded their views and blamed them? And me by extension. This is the root of the problem, we are not ready for good faith debate. Both sides have lost faith in the other. We are just being honest about it now. You basically said conservatives are irrational and not worth arguing with, and it is better to find "other ways" to get their point across. You are the problem. I'm not about to defend violence, or banning someone from speaking simply because I disagree with them, or that I consider them arguing in bad faith. The majority of the people in this thread who voted on my poll thought a woman should be able to abort a pregnancy at any time for any reason... That is a radical, extreme, progressive opinion rooted in ideological dogma the exact same way a conservative would say "life starts at conception". However if someone came to a college campus to give a talk on such a ridiculous position, banning that person from speaking, or starting fires and damaging buildings no matter how much I disagree is not something that should occur. We can end the debate by calling each other fascists, but we still have rights to speak and speak freely. I agree with what you are saying, we are not ready for a good faith debate. You know how I know this? If you go to my initial comment, you will see I was talking about people I spoke and know, not myself. I provided my impressions of their feelings. I didn't say I held these views or agreed completely. But to you, I am the problem. People aren't here for debate, they are here to watch people get "owned". That is why they go to Milo. It is entertainment. Debate isn't about exploring the issues, its about who rekts who. Its points. Youtube clips. Memes. That isn't good faith debate. And some people are tired of being the punchline.
I assumed your anecdote about your progressive friends was in alignment with your views, given how you worded your post. Am I wrong?
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On February 10 2017 08:48 LegalLord wrote:
Every single legally-minded person in this thread takes exception to Trump's attitude towards the courts.
I don't think they get to pretend this wasn't a foreseeable outcome though.
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On February 10 2017 08:48 LegalLord wrote:
Every single legally-minded person in this thread takes exception to Trump's attitude towards the courts.
He's learned what independent judiciary means, given that his latest tweet did not insult the 9th district. He's pivoting!!! (jk but it is a slight improvement)
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EPT
