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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 676

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Adreme
Profile Joined June 2011
United States5574 Posts
November 29 2013 07:33 GMT
#13501
I guess I should follow up my post by saying that option c is easily the most short term of all of the options on the table because it is the only one that does not change the basic situation as it stands and all it does is buy you time be it 5 years or 10 years you are still going to have to do this dance all over again.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-29 08:20:31
November 29 2013 08:17 GMT
#13502
The moral road may not always be option X in xDaunt's three scenarios, but being the nice guy gets you a lot of goodies usually. I mean, you can beat up a kid for his lunch money so you can buy a pack of baseball cards, or you could become friends with him, get some of his tater tots, and then later on when he's rich he might even lets you drive his Lamborghini.

Also, giving Iran back their stuff got a ticket to visit this place. Things are looking on the up and up, now if only Israel would stop their goddamn saber rattling.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18869 Posts
November 29 2013 10:01 GMT
#13503
On November 29 2013 17:17 ticklishmusic wrote:
The moral road may not always be option X in xDaunt's three scenarios, but being the nice guy gets you a lot of goodies usually. I mean, you can beat up a kid for his lunch money so you can buy a pack of baseball cards, or you could become friends with him, get some of his tater tots, and then later on when he's rich he might even lets you drive his Lamborghini.

Also, giving Iran back their stuff got a ticket to visit this place. Things are looking on the up and up, now if only Israel would stop their goddamn saber rattling.

We can take this bit even farther. You don't even have to really be friends with him so long as the appearance fits and your influence over them increases. There are few American weapons more dangerous (and subversive) than our culture, and if one looks at what is being sold in the malls of Tehran, what sort of music is playing on the most popular "hip" Irani radio stations, and what is being studied in their places of higher education, it is abundantly clear that, for better or for worse, Iran desperately wants our shit. And what do we do? Tell them no because we think that hurts them in some way. Silly silly.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
November 29 2013 14:33 GMT
#13504
On November 29 2013 13:56 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2013 06:33 Roe wrote:
On November 29 2013 03:08 xDaunt wrote:
On November 29 2013 01:53 mcc wrote:
On November 28 2013 19:43 hypercube wrote:
On November 28 2013 13:53 xDaunt wrote:

EDIT: This is a little cliche, but what exactly do you think was going through Hitler's mind when Chamberlain and the French gave him Czechoslovakia? Do you think he thought "hey, what a bunch of nice guys. I'll do something nice for them next time"? Clearly not. His line of thought went something like this, "ROFL THOSE STUPID, WEAK FOOLS. I wonder what I can bend them over for next time." Learn to think like a exploitative, cheesing asshole when you're analyzing these events, and you'll be able to see exactly what I am talking about.


It's not cliche it's a terrible attempt to equate Iran to Nazi Germany.

The funniest part is that his nazi analogy can much easier be applied to US than to Iran. If we should take anything from xDaunt post it is that both parties/governments are "exploitative, cheesing assholes" and neither of them are "good guys" in any sense.

Didn't I already say 465577 times that morality has (should have) nothing to do with foreign policy?

Edit: and where did I ever say that this didn't apply to the US?


I'm interested in seeing how you can separate "good" actions or good ways of living from foreign policy.

Scary thought, huh?


Are you afraid to answer the question?
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-29 16:25:45
November 29 2013 16:25 GMT
#13505
When a fundamental Islamic state like Iran is intent on getting nuclear weapons to add to their threats of force, there is very little agreement possible. They know that. At what point will international action, including sanctions, force off this dream of nuclear weapons, if it ever happens? Who knows. I don't think a pause in one part of its uranium enrichment is worth the price we payed in the cards we hold.

Iran still does not recognize Israel. It's stated several times in the past its desire to see it wiped off the map. There is no reason here to pretend its aims are changed and its going to play nicely if we just extend more bribes.

The deal, Netanyahu argued, leaves Iran "taking only cosmetic steps which it could reverse easily within a few weeks, and in return, sanctions that took years to put in place are going to be eased."

"This first step could very well be the last step," he said.

"Without continued pressure, what incentive does the Iranian regime have to take serious steps that actually dismantle its nuclear weapons capability?"

Mark Regev, a spokesman for Netanyahu, said easing pressure will remove any motivation for Iran's leaders to make difficult decisions.

"It's like having a small hole in your tire, a small hole in the sanctions regime," he said. "In the end, like with your tire, you'll get a flat."
source:cnn
I'm with Netanyahu. Bad foreign policy from the US, gaining cosmetic changes, costing too much in negotiating power.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
November 29 2013 17:29 GMT
#13506
Stories like this say a lot:

Hospital Puts Docs On the Spot To Lower Costs

Summa Akron City Hospital in Ohio is doing something unusual: sharing data with doctors on how much their patients and procedures cost the hospital.

The hospital is participating in one of the many experiments that the Affordable Care Act set into motion to help figure out how to reduce the nation's skyrocketing healthcare costs. ...

"I can tell you for the physicians in general, yes, it's uncomfortable," says Ken Berkovitz, chairman of the Department of Cardiology at the hospital. He says doctors know what it's like to be compared on quality — for example, they know how many of their patients have to be readmitted because of complications — but they have never been compared on costs. ...

The doctors have been meeting with teams of nurses and administrators to discuss the data and figure out more efficient and cost-effective ways to care for patients. Deirdre Baggot, a healthcare consultant with the Camden Group leads these meetings. Baggot says that in the U.S., an estimated 25 to 35 percent of what hospitals do is wasteful and doesn't improve outcomes. ...

Link

The new, 'novel' thing going on in hospitals - giving two shits about cost. Would have been nice if they started doing that a generation ago, but better late than never
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
November 29 2013 17:37 GMT
#13507
On November 29 2013 23:33 Roe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2013 13:56 xDaunt wrote:
On November 29 2013 06:33 Roe wrote:
On November 29 2013 03:08 xDaunt wrote:
On November 29 2013 01:53 mcc wrote:
On November 28 2013 19:43 hypercube wrote:
On November 28 2013 13:53 xDaunt wrote:

EDIT: This is a little cliche, but what exactly do you think was going through Hitler's mind when Chamberlain and the French gave him Czechoslovakia? Do you think he thought "hey, what a bunch of nice guys. I'll do something nice for them next time"? Clearly not. His line of thought went something like this, "ROFL THOSE STUPID, WEAK FOOLS. I wonder what I can bend them over for next time." Learn to think like a exploitative, cheesing asshole when you're analyzing these events, and you'll be able to see exactly what I am talking about.


It's not cliche it's a terrible attempt to equate Iran to Nazi Germany.

The funniest part is that his nazi analogy can much easier be applied to US than to Iran. If we should take anything from xDaunt post it is that both parties/governments are "exploitative, cheesing assholes" and neither of them are "good guys" in any sense.

Didn't I already say 465577 times that morality has (should have) nothing to do with foreign policy?

Edit: and where did I ever say that this didn't apply to the US?


I'm interested in seeing how you can separate "good" actions or good ways of living from foreign policy.

Scary thought, huh?


Are you afraid to answer the question?

Of course not. The answer is that the calculus for the state and for the individual living in society are effectively the same. The difference in actions taken between the two lies in the difference between the scope of the social contract in each arena. International relations is far more lawless than intra-societal relations.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
November 29 2013 18:10 GMT
#13508
On November 30 2013 02:29 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Stories like this say a lot:

Show nested quote +
Hospital Puts Docs On the Spot To Lower Costs

Summa Akron City Hospital in Ohio is doing something unusual: sharing data with doctors on how much their patients and procedures cost the hospital.

The hospital is participating in one of the many experiments that the Affordable Care Act set into motion to help figure out how to reduce the nation's skyrocketing healthcare costs. ...

"I can tell you for the physicians in general, yes, it's uncomfortable," says Ken Berkovitz, chairman of the Department of Cardiology at the hospital. He says doctors know what it's like to be compared on quality — for example, they know how many of their patients have to be readmitted because of complications — but they have never been compared on costs. ...

The doctors have been meeting with teams of nurses and administrators to discuss the data and figure out more efficient and cost-effective ways to care for patients. Deirdre Baggot, a healthcare consultant with the Camden Group leads these meetings. Baggot says that in the U.S., an estimated 25 to 35 percent of what hospitals do is wasteful and doesn't improve outcomes. ...

Link

The new, 'novel' thing going on in hospitals - giving two shits about cost. Would have been nice if they started doing that a generation ago, but better late than never

More of this please! Long-term, even making the full cost known to the patient for procedures and stays, notwithstanding end-cost to them.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
November 29 2013 18:21 GMT
#13509
On November 30 2013 02:37 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2013 23:33 Roe wrote:
On November 29 2013 13:56 xDaunt wrote:
On November 29 2013 06:33 Roe wrote:
On November 29 2013 03:08 xDaunt wrote:
On November 29 2013 01:53 mcc wrote:
On November 28 2013 19:43 hypercube wrote:
On November 28 2013 13:53 xDaunt wrote:

EDIT: This is a little cliche, but what exactly do you think was going through Hitler's mind when Chamberlain and the French gave him Czechoslovakia? Do you think he thought "hey, what a bunch of nice guys. I'll do something nice for them next time"? Clearly not. His line of thought went something like this, "ROFL THOSE STUPID, WEAK FOOLS. I wonder what I can bend them over for next time." Learn to think like a exploitative, cheesing asshole when you're analyzing these events, and you'll be able to see exactly what I am talking about.


It's not cliche it's a terrible attempt to equate Iran to Nazi Germany.

The funniest part is that his nazi analogy can much easier be applied to US than to Iran. If we should take anything from xDaunt post it is that both parties/governments are "exploitative, cheesing assholes" and neither of them are "good guys" in any sense.

Didn't I already say 465577 times that morality has (should have) nothing to do with foreign policy?

Edit: and where did I ever say that this didn't apply to the US?


I'm interested in seeing how you can separate "good" actions or good ways of living from foreign policy.

Scary thought, huh?


Are you afraid to answer the question?

Of course not. The answer is that the calculus for the state and for the individual living in society are effectively the same. The difference in actions taken between the two lies in the difference between the scope of the social contract in each arena. International relations is far more lawless than intra-societal relations.


That doesn't really answer the question to be honest. And can you speak dumb for me? I'm a simple man, I do not possess a busyness or political degree. I just want to know how the decision between good and bad actions is no longer entailed in foreign relations! pleaaaaase
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
November 29 2013 18:23 GMT
#13510
On November 30 2013 03:21 Roe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2013 02:37 xDaunt wrote:
On November 29 2013 23:33 Roe wrote:
On November 29 2013 13:56 xDaunt wrote:
On November 29 2013 06:33 Roe wrote:
On November 29 2013 03:08 xDaunt wrote:
On November 29 2013 01:53 mcc wrote:
On November 28 2013 19:43 hypercube wrote:
On November 28 2013 13:53 xDaunt wrote:

EDIT: This is a little cliche, but what exactly do you think was going through Hitler's mind when Chamberlain and the French gave him Czechoslovakia? Do you think he thought "hey, what a bunch of nice guys. I'll do something nice for them next time"? Clearly not. His line of thought went something like this, "ROFL THOSE STUPID, WEAK FOOLS. I wonder what I can bend them over for next time." Learn to think like a exploitative, cheesing asshole when you're analyzing these events, and you'll be able to see exactly what I am talking about.


It's not cliche it's a terrible attempt to equate Iran to Nazi Germany.

The funniest part is that his nazi analogy can much easier be applied to US than to Iran. If we should take anything from xDaunt post it is that both parties/governments are "exploitative, cheesing assholes" and neither of them are "good guys" in any sense.

Didn't I already say 465577 times that morality has (should have) nothing to do with foreign policy?

Edit: and where did I ever say that this didn't apply to the US?


I'm interested in seeing how you can separate "good" actions or good ways of living from foreign policy.

Scary thought, huh?


Are you afraid to answer the question?

Of course not. The answer is that the calculus for the state and for the individual living in society are effectively the same. The difference in actions taken between the two lies in the difference between the scope of the social contract in each arena. International relations is far more lawless than intra-societal relations.


That doesn't really answer the question to be honest. And can you speak dumb for me? I'm a simple man, I do not possess a busyness or political degree. I just want to know how the decision between good and bad actions is no longer entailed in foreign relations! pleaaaaase

Rephrase your question so that I know what you're asking.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 29 2013 18:42 GMT
#13511
President Barack Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama stopped by the National Mall on Friday, the day after Thanksgiving, to speak with immigration reform activists who are fasting as part of an effort to push Congress to act on a path to citizenship for millions of the nation's undocumented immigrants.

"The President and the First Lady are visiting individuals taking part in Fast For Families on the National Mall and offer their support for those who are fasting on behalf of immigration reform," a White House official said, according to a pool report.

Activists have been fasting on the National Mall since Nov. 12 and have attracted several White House and Congressional leaders who have visited to show solidarity. The Obamas spoke with 18 day fasters and two activists who have been fasting for 18 days: Eliseo Medina (left) and Dae Joong Yoon (right).

During a speech centered on immigration in San Francisco on Monday, Obama noted, the "brave advocates who have been fasting for two weeks in the shadow of the Capitol, sacrificing themselves in an effort to get Congress to act."

When an activist interrupted his speech with a plea to use his executive powers on the issue, Obama countered by saying that the onus was on Congress to act.

"You have a power to stop all deportations," the activist shouted.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
November 29 2013 19:57 GMT
#13512
On November 30 2013 03:42 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
President Barack Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama stopped by the National Mall on Friday, the day after Thanksgiving, to speak with immigration reform activists who are fasting as part of an effort to push Congress to act on a path to citizenship for millions of the nation's undocumented immigrants.

"The President and the First Lady are visiting individuals taking part in Fast For Families on the National Mall and offer their support for those who are fasting on behalf of immigration reform," a White House official said, according to a pool report.

Activists have been fasting on the National Mall since Nov. 12 and have attracted several White House and Congressional leaders who have visited to show solidarity. The Obamas spoke with 18 day fasters and two activists who have been fasting for 18 days: Eliseo Medina (left) and Dae Joong Yoon (right).

During a speech centered on immigration in San Francisco on Monday, Obama noted, the "brave advocates who have been fasting for two weeks in the shadow of the Capitol, sacrificing themselves in an effort to get Congress to act."

When an activist interrupted his speech with a plea to use his executive powers on the issue, Obama countered by saying that the onus was on Congress to act.

"You have a power to stop all deportations," the activist shouted.


Source

Activists wanting lawlessness, nothing new there.

The citizenship drive is still dead in the House. It's a pretty far out dream to unite the corporatist faction (cheap labor) with the liberals, but that's the only chance Democrats have. Gang of Eight comprehensive immigration reform died, DREAM act died, others I'm probably forgetting right now. Good luck!
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
HunterX11
Profile Joined March 2009
United States1048 Posts
November 29 2013 22:38 GMT
#13513
On November 30 2013 01:25 Danglars wrote:
When a fundamental Islamic state like Iran is intent on getting nuclear weapons to add to their threats of force, there is very little agreement possible. They know that. At what point will international action, including sanctions, force off this dream of nuclear weapons, if it ever happens? Who knows. I don't think a pause in one part of its uranium enrichment is worth the price we payed in the cards we hold.

Iran still does not recognize Israel. It's stated several times in the past its desire to see it wiped off the map. There is no reason here to pretend its aims are changed and its going to play nicely if we just extend more bribes.
Show nested quote +

The deal, Netanyahu argued, leaves Iran "taking only cosmetic steps which it could reverse easily within a few weeks, and in return, sanctions that took years to put in place are going to be eased."

"This first step could very well be the last step," he said.

"Without continued pressure, what incentive does the Iranian regime have to take serious steps that actually dismantle its nuclear weapons capability?"

Mark Regev, a spokesman for Netanyahu, said easing pressure will remove any motivation for Iran's leaders to make difficult decisions.

"It's like having a small hole in your tire, a small hole in the sanctions regime," he said. "In the end, like with your tire, you'll get a flat."
source:cnn
I'm with Netanyahu. Bad foreign policy from the US, gaining cosmetic changes, costing too much in negotiating power.


So is Iran a fundamentalist Islamic state or not? Because the Supreme Ayatollah Khamenei issued a fatwa stating that nuclear weapons are unequivoically haram. But if that's just for show, and they aren't actually crazy, then of course there's no chance they're going to nuke Israel for shits and giggles. It can't be both ways. And more importantly, there's no actual indication that Iran is intent on getting nuclear weapons at all: if they were, why would they comply with IAEA safeguards?
Try using both Irradiate and Defensive Matrix on an Overlord. It looks pretty neat.
radscorpion9
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Canada2252 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-30 00:46:18
November 30 2013 00:34 GMT
#13514
On November 30 2013 01:25 Danglars wrote:
When a fundamental Islamic state like Iran is intent on getting nuclear weapons to add to their threats of force, there is very little agreement possible. They know that. At what point will international action, including sanctions, force off this dream of nuclear weapons, if it ever happens? Who knows. I don't think a pause in one part of its uranium enrichment is worth the price we payed in the cards we hold.

Iran still does not recognize Israel. It's stated several times in the past its desire to see it wiped off the map. There is no reason here to pretend its aims are changed and its going to play nicely if we just extend more bribes.
Show nested quote +

The deal, Netanyahu argued, leaves Iran "taking only cosmetic steps which it could reverse easily within a few weeks, and in return, sanctions that took years to put in place are going to be eased."

"This first step could very well be the last step," he said.

"Without continued pressure, what incentive does the Iranian regime have to take serious steps that actually dismantle its nuclear weapons capability?"

Mark Regev, a spokesman for Netanyahu, said easing pressure will remove any motivation for Iran's leaders to make difficult decisions.

"It's like having a small hole in your tire, a small hole in the sanctions regime," he said. "In the end, like with your tire, you'll get a flat."
source:cnn
I'm with Netanyahu. Bad foreign policy from the US, gaining cosmetic changes, costing too much in negotiating power.


There is actually a good deal of controversy about whether those statements were quoted correctly. From a New York Times article LINK:

The second translation issue concerns the word "map." Khomeini's words were abstract: "Sahneh roozgar." Sahneh means scene or stage, and roozgar means time. The phrase was widely interpreted as "map," and for years, no one objected. In October, when Mr. Ahmadinejad quoted Khomeini, he actually misquoted him, saying not "Sahneh roozgar" but "Safheh roozgar," meaning pages of time or history. No one noticed the change, and news agencies used the word "map" again.


To be fair the translator's in Tehran who work for the President's office disagreed and said that it was *still* an accurate translation. But in spite of that, you can hear from Ahmadinejad himself. From the Wikipedia entry LINK

At a news conference on 14 January 2006, Ahmadinejad stated his speech had been exaggerated and misinterpreted. [96] "There is no new policy, they created a lot of hue and cry over that. It is clear what we say: Let the Palestinians participate in free elections and they will say what they want." Speaking at a D-8 summit meeting in July 2008, he denied that his country would ever instigate military action. Instead he claimed that "the Zionist regime" in Israel would eventually collapse on its own.


Additional quotes from the same entry:

Iranian government sources denied that Ahmadinejad issued any sort of threat. On 20 February 2006, Iran's foreign minister Manouchehr Mottaki told a news conference: "How is it possible to remove a country from the map? He is talking about the regime. We do not recognize this regime legally."[91][92][93] Ahmadinejad himself stated that Iran is not a threat to any country, including Israel.[94]


There is another quote from Ahmadinejad (which you can read) about how he has no problem with Jewish people and even accepts them in Iran as citizens, giving them representation in parliament.

It is clear that Iran's leaders don't like Israel (at least in recent history and the near future). But its a huge, *huge* step to think that they would actually go forward with nuking them without thinking about the obvious reprisals - and that the whole government would be insane enough to do this (not just one unstable leader). I really don't think that Ahmadinejad's rhetoric is a solid enough footing to have certainty that Iran will go through with this, especially considering all the official statements they have made countering what everyone seems to be so certain about.

Its similar to North Korea. North Korea is about as unstable as it gets, and they employ ridiculous levels of rhetoric about how they will rain nuclear fire on their foes...and then after a month nothing happens and they ask for food aid. Compare it to Iran, where all you have are ambiguous quotes at best that they maintain refer to regime change and not destroying anyone, yet somehow people take them 100x more seriously than crazy North Korea, and genuinely believe that when one leader says some offensive rhetoric, it 100% means nuclear war is imminent. Its just way too extreme of a conclusion to draw
Dapper_Cad
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom964 Posts
November 30 2013 00:45 GMT
#13515
On November 30 2013 03:23 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2013 03:21 Roe wrote:
On November 30 2013 02:37 xDaunt wrote:
On November 29 2013 23:33 Roe wrote:
On November 29 2013 13:56 xDaunt wrote:
On November 29 2013 06:33 Roe wrote:
On November 29 2013 03:08 xDaunt wrote:
On November 29 2013 01:53 mcc wrote:
On November 28 2013 19:43 hypercube wrote:
On November 28 2013 13:53 xDaunt wrote:

EDIT: This is a little cliche, but what exactly do you think was going through Hitler's mind when Chamberlain and the French gave him Czechoslovakia? Do you think he thought "hey, what a bunch of nice guys. I'll do something nice for them next time"? Clearly not. His line of thought went something like this, "ROFL THOSE STUPID, WEAK FOOLS. I wonder what I can bend them over for next time." Learn to think like a exploitative, cheesing asshole when you're analyzing these events, and you'll be able to see exactly what I am talking about.


It's not cliche it's a terrible attempt to equate Iran to Nazi Germany.

The funniest part is that his nazi analogy can much easier be applied to US than to Iran. If we should take anything from xDaunt post it is that both parties/governments are "exploitative, cheesing assholes" and neither of them are "good guys" in any sense.

Didn't I already say 465577 times that morality has (should have) nothing to do with foreign policy?

Edit: and where did I ever say that this didn't apply to the US?


I'm interested in seeing how you can separate "good" actions or good ways of living from foreign policy.

Scary thought, huh?


Are you afraid to answer the question?

Of course not. The answer is that the calculus for the state and for the individual living in society are effectively the same. The difference in actions taken between the two lies in the difference between the scope of the social contract in each arena. International relations is far more lawless than intra-societal relations.


That doesn't really answer the question to be honest. And can you speak dumb for me? I'm a simple man, I do not possess a busyness or political degree. I just want to know how the decision between good and bad actions is no longer entailed in foreign relations! pleaaaaase

Rephrase your question so that I know what you're asking.


I think he's asking why you believe altruism is a pathology.
But he is never making short-term prediction, everyone of his prediction are based on fundenmentals, but he doesn't exactly know when it will happen... So using these kind of narrowed "who-is-right" empirical analysis makes little sense.
CannonsNCarriers
Profile Joined April 2010
United States638 Posts
November 30 2013 01:08 GMT
#13516
On this whole Iran / Israel / Saudi Arabia front, I think we should switch sides and stick with the Shias (Iran) against the Sunnis (Saudi Arabia). We keep backing up these Sunni Salafist insurgents (see Syria 2012, Libya 2011, Egypt 2011, Afghanistan in the and Pakistan in the 80s) and it keeps biting us in the ass. Iran is way less crazy than Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. And the Saudi oil is running out anyways.
Dun tuch my cheezbrgr
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-30 02:00:49
November 30 2013 01:12 GMT
#13517
On November 30 2013 09:45 Dapper_Cad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2013 03:23 xDaunt wrote:
On November 30 2013 03:21 Roe wrote:
On November 30 2013 02:37 xDaunt wrote:
On November 29 2013 23:33 Roe wrote:
On November 29 2013 13:56 xDaunt wrote:
On November 29 2013 06:33 Roe wrote:
On November 29 2013 03:08 xDaunt wrote:
On November 29 2013 01:53 mcc wrote:
On November 28 2013 19:43 hypercube wrote:
[quote]

It's not cliche it's a terrible attempt to equate Iran to Nazi Germany.

The funniest part is that his nazi analogy can much easier be applied to US than to Iran. If we should take anything from xDaunt post it is that both parties/governments are "exploitative, cheesing assholes" and neither of them are "good guys" in any sense.

Didn't I already say 465577 times that morality has (should have) nothing to do with foreign policy?

Edit: and where did I ever say that this didn't apply to the US?


I'm interested in seeing how you can separate "good" actions or good ways of living from foreign policy.

Scary thought, huh?


Are you afraid to answer the question?

Of course not. The answer is that the calculus for the state and for the individual living in society are effectively the same. The difference in actions taken between the two lies in the difference between the scope of the social contract in each arena. International relations is far more lawless than intra-societal relations.


That doesn't really answer the question to be honest. And can you speak dumb for me? I'm a simple man, I do not possess a busyness or political degree. I just want to know how the decision between good and bad actions is no longer entailed in foreign relations! pleaaaaase

Rephrase your question so that I know what you're asking.


I think he's asking why you believe altruism is a pathology.


No I just want to know how foreign relations have nothing to do with morality (the choices and decisions of what are good actions and what are bad actions). Why does he think there is no valuation inherent in foreign policy? I don't see why this is so hard to understand...

edit: so dapper_cad was right when he said you made a mistake in saying foreign policy has nothing to do with morality
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
November 30 2013 01:20 GMT
#13518
On November 30 2013 07:38 HunterX11 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2013 01:25 Danglars wrote:
When a fundamental Islamic state like Iran is intent on getting nuclear weapons to add to their threats of force, there is very little agreement possible. They know that. At what point will international action, including sanctions, force off this dream of nuclear weapons, if it ever happens? Who knows. I don't think a pause in one part of its uranium enrichment is worth the price we payed in the cards we hold.

Iran still does not recognize Israel. It's stated several times in the past its desire to see it wiped off the map. There is no reason here to pretend its aims are changed and its going to play nicely if we just extend more bribes.

The deal, Netanyahu argued, leaves Iran "taking only cosmetic steps which it could reverse easily within a few weeks, and in return, sanctions that took years to put in place are going to be eased."

"This first step could very well be the last step," he said.

"Without continued pressure, what incentive does the Iranian regime have to take serious steps that actually dismantle its nuclear weapons capability?"

Mark Regev, a spokesman for Netanyahu, said easing pressure will remove any motivation for Iran's leaders to make difficult decisions.

"It's like having a small hole in your tire, a small hole in the sanctions regime," he said. "In the end, like with your tire, you'll get a flat."
source:cnn
I'm with Netanyahu. Bad foreign policy from the US, gaining cosmetic changes, costing too much in negotiating power.


So is Iran a fundamentalist Islamic state or not? Because the Supreme Ayatollah Khamenei issued a fatwa stating that nuclear weapons are unequivoically haram. But if that's just for show, and they aren't actually crazy, then of course there's no chance they're going to nuke Israel for shits and giggles. It can't be both ways. And more importantly, there's no actual indication that Iran is intent on getting nuclear weapons at all: if they were, why would they comply with IAEA safeguards?

I'm sure the Ayatollah's recent remarks came as soothing consolation to American liberals wishing everybody would play nice in the diplomatic sandbox. He didn't really mean all those terrible things. He's new. He's reformed. We're wiping out 50 years of history. And man, you're REALLY grasping at straws with that last sentence. This is full peace-in-our-time mode.

On November 30 2013 09:34 radscorpion9 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2013 01:25 Danglars wrote:
When a fundamental Islamic state like Iran is intent on getting nuclear weapons to add to their threats of force, there is very little agreement possible. They know that. At what point will international action, including sanctions, force off this dream of nuclear weapons, if it ever happens? Who knows. I don't think a pause in one part of its uranium enrichment is worth the price we payed in the cards we hold.

Iran still does not recognize Israel. It's stated several times in the past its desire to see it wiped off the map. There is no reason here to pretend its aims are changed and its going to play nicely if we just extend more bribes.

The deal, Netanyahu argued, leaves Iran "taking only cosmetic steps which it could reverse easily within a few weeks, and in return, sanctions that took years to put in place are going to be eased."

"This first step could very well be the last step," he said.

"Without continued pressure, what incentive does the Iranian regime have to take serious steps that actually dismantle its nuclear weapons capability?"

Mark Regev, a spokesman for Netanyahu, said easing pressure will remove any motivation for Iran's leaders to make difficult decisions.

"It's like having a small hole in your tire, a small hole in the sanctions regime," he said. "In the end, like with your tire, you'll get a flat."
source:cnn
I'm with Netanyahu. Bad foreign policy from the US, gaining cosmetic changes, costing too much in negotiating power.


There is actually a good deal of controversy about whether those statements were quoted correctly. From a New York Times article LINK:

Show nested quote +
The second translation issue concerns the word "map." Khomeini's words were abstract: "Sahneh roozgar." Sahneh means scene or stage, and roozgar means time. The phrase was widely interpreted as "map," and for years, no one objected. In October, when Mr. Ahmadinejad quoted Khomeini, he actually misquoted him, saying not "Sahneh roozgar" but "Safheh roozgar," meaning pages of time or history. No one noticed the change, and news agencies used the word "map" again.


To be fair the translator's in Tehran who work for the President's office disagreed and said that it was *still* an accurate translation. But in spite of that, you can hear from Ahmadinejad himself. From the Wikipedia entry LINK

Show nested quote +
At a news conference on 14 January 2006, Ahmadinejad stated his speech had been exaggerated and misinterpreted. [96] "There is no new policy, they created a lot of hue and cry over that. It is clear what we say: Let the Palestinians participate in free elections and they will say what they want." Speaking at a D-8 summit meeting in July 2008, he denied that his country would ever instigate military action. Instead he claimed that "the Zionist regime" in Israel would eventually collapse on its own.


Additional quotes from the same entry:

Show nested quote +
Iranian government sources denied that Ahmadinejad issued any sort of threat. On 20 February 2006, Iran's foreign minister Manouchehr Mottaki told a news conference: "How is it possible to remove a country from the map? He is talking about the regime. We do not recognize this regime legally."[91][92][93] Ahmadinejad himself stated that Iran is not a threat to any country, including Israel.[94]


There is another quote from Ahmadinejad (which you can read) about how he has no problem with Jewish people and even accepts them in Iran as citizens, giving them representation in parliament.

It is clear that Iran's leaders don't like Israel (at least in recent history and the near future). But its a huge, *huge* step to think that they would actually go forward with nuking them without thinking about the obvious reprisals - and that the whole government would be insane enough to do this (not just one unstable leader). I really don't think that Ahmadinejad's rhetoric is a solid enough footing to have certainty that Iran will go through with this, especially considering all the official statements they have made countering what everyone seems to be so certain about.

Its similar to North Korea. North Korea is about as unstable as it gets, and they employ ridiculous levels of rhetoric about how they will rain nuclear fire on their foes...and then after a month nothing happens and they ask for food aid. Compare it to Iran, where all you have are ambiguous quotes at best that they maintain refer to regime change and not destroying anyone, yet somehow people take them 100x more seriously than crazy North Korea, and genuinely believe that when one leader says some offensive rhetoric, it 100% means nuclear war is imminent. Its just way too extreme of a conclusion to draw


It's a little late for
This is all just one big misunderstanding!

They still will not recognize Israel as a state, they have made no offer of dismantling the uranium enrichment scheme, and it aint an Iranian rally unless you're screaming "Death to America." Clearly grounds to send them money in time for Christmas. You miss the gulf between fanatical bluster and peaceful negotiation. My favorite pro gamers aren't compelled into military service because South Koreans all forgot that North Korea's only rhetoric.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
November 30 2013 01:29 GMT
#13519
Yeah, I'm done explaining myself on this theory of foreign policy business. If you guys don't get it after the last page of comments, then you never will.
Wegandi
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2455 Posts
November 30 2013 02:02 GMT
#13520
On November 30 2013 10:29 xDaunt wrote:
Yeah, I'm done explaining myself on this theory of foreign policy business. If you guys don't get it after the last page of comments, then you never will.


Oh we get it. You'd make a fine Minister in 18th Century England. I get it..you like Imperialism and Mercantilism. What you don't get are how outrageously destructive those views are to not only foreign populaces, but domestic as well. As Randolph Bourne said 'War is the Health of the State'. Higher taxes, more restrictions on liberties at home, atrocities committed afar, hatred sewn, and avarice and pursuit of and warping of power amongst the political class. To lie, deceive, obfuscate in to wars for the MIC on notions of scaring the population. It's thousands and thousands year old tactics of every totalitarian. You're nothing new.
Thank you bureaucrats for all your hard work, your commitment to public service and public good is essential to the lives of so many. Also, for Pete's sake can we please get some gun control already, no need for hand guns and assault rifles for the public
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