EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 6680
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9647 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On January 29 2017 07:15 Mohdoo wrote: Yeah my friend and his dad are both Iranian and went recently. Would have just straight up not come back. What a crazy fucking thought. Same deal with a co-worker actually. What a bizarre, fucked up situation. I can't believe this is actually happening. I hope this is the straw that breaks the camel's back. This has to be breaking some sort of law, or aspect of your constitution. Its fucked up. I can't actually imagine anyone supporting any part of this issue. I can understand if you want to increase the checks and balances in your immigration system. I can understand wanting to stop accepting new applications while you work on this. I can understand wanting to stop accepting new refugee applications to implement your "extreme vetting" whatever the fuck that means. What I can't condone is turning people away who live, work and contribute to your country who happened to go on vacation. I can't understand just writing something this fucking retarded and writ large denying entry of people from 7 countries for no good reason. The majority of terrorists are American born, they don't come from another country, and when the countries that the world agrees might actually be linked to terrorism aren't included in your immediate ban of entry it reeks of xenophobia at best and straight up racism at its worst. And before you tell me islam isn't a race. Fuck that. You want to know what your president said? He said this isn't about Islam. He said its not a muslim ban but a ban on potential terrorists from terror supporting countries. If labelling all the people in those 7 countries terrorists before they can prove they aren't terrorists you can't tell me that isn't racism. And if its not racism then it is islamaphobia which is 99% as bad as straight up racism. Use whatever fucking word you want people who fully support this - it is as simple as looking at where a human being happened to be born, which is just as arbitrary as what colour their skin is and telling them: we dont want you, we don't care about you, we don't care what your personal circumstances are, and we don't care whether you live here or not. The fact you werent inside the borders when a piece of paper was signed you are not welcome in America, and you are worth less than all Americans. If you think that the ideology behind the immediate shutting of borders can't be extended to ensuring those that "slipped through the cracks" and were within the borders of America to begin with can't be rounded up and sent out. You are stupid. If America doesn't reverse course on this, I don't see anything positive coming from it. And even if course is reversed, your international reputation has just been damaged. In one afternoon you have destroyed years of diplomacy with Iran and other middle eastern countries. You have created years and years of work for your diplomats. None of this is good. All it does is slightly quell some existential fears about "the terrorists" while making them stronger. If this doesn't bolster ISIS and their ilk, I don't know what else will. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
more like a medium screwup, maybe even small if his supporters don't mind it. zeromus -> "What I can't condone is turning people away who live, work and contribute to your country who happened to go on vacation." what if the people live and work in your country, but aren't yet permanent residents or citizens? (I ask because it may lead to somewhere interesting depending on your answer) in the case mohdoo cited, they'd probably make it back in time, I'm pretty sure you can't deny an american citizen entry to the country permanently. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On January 29 2017 07:21 TheYango wrote: As someone who knows quite a few people that this could affect, the fact that people can find this situation okay is deeply upsetting to me. That's totally not okay. Some people have jobs/families/homes/pets etc. to take care of, are permanent residents and get denied the ability to go home. Great job Trump. Good job protecting alternative Americans. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On January 29 2017 07:30 zlefin wrote: It's not yet a major screwup I'd say, since it can still all be reversed quite quickly if he chooses to do so. more like a medium screwup, maybe even small if his supporters don't mind it. It can't be reversed. The damage has been done. If you think any of those 7 countries will want to work with the US any time soon you are deluded. That whole Iran nuclear deal to prevent them from getting nuclear weapons? Good luck keeping that. When people decide what country to immigrate to, and want to go study in they will not choose the US so quickly. The USA's competitive international advantage is being eroded. Their power in the world is being undermined. This is exactly what non-western interests want. And Trump is doing it for them. He is making his enemies stronger, and his own country weaker. All because of bravado and machismo. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On January 29 2017 07:30 zlefin wrote: It's not yet a major screwup I'd say, since it can still all be reversed quite quickly if he chooses to do so. more like a medium screwup, maybe even small if his supporters don't mind it. He will simply claim his order was wrongly interpreted by MSM and democrats and terrorists. Given that the order itself was completely wishywashy and unclear... And let's just ignore that his very own office confirmed that it would also apply to double passports, green card owners and revoke all visa granted to any citizens of those countries. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On January 29 2017 07:33 ZeromuS wrote: It can't be reversed. The damage has been done. If you think any of those 7 countries will want to work with the US any time soon you are deluded. That whole Iran nuclear deal to prevent them from getting nuclear weapons? Good luck keeping that. When people decide what country to immigrate to, and want to go study in they will not choose the US so quickly. The USA's competitive international advantage is being eroded. Their power in the world is being undermined. This is exactly what non-western interests want. And Trump is doing it for them. He is making his enemies stronger, and his own country weaker. All because of bravado and machismo. bah, you resonded already so my edit might be missed, just restating some stuff I'd edit added, to preserve chain of discussion order: zeromus -> "What I can't condone is turning people away who live, work and contribute to your country who happened to go on vacation." what if the people live and work in your country, but aren't yet permanent residents or citizens? (I ask because it may lead to somewhere interesting depending on your answer) in the case mohdoo cited, they'd probably make it back in time, I'm pretty sure you can't deny an american citizen entry to the country permanently. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
and now theres 30 days to have a plan to "defeat isis" by executive order (1 of 3 new ones today) Yeah. If you don't think America wants to go to war in the middle east after today, then you have to be completely deluded. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On January 29 2017 07:35 zlefin wrote: bah, you resonded already so my edit might be missed, just restating some stuff I'd edit added: zeromus -> "What I can't condone is turning people away who live, work and contribute to your country who happened to go on vacation." what if the people live and work in your country, but aren't yet permanent residents or citizens? (I ask because it may lead to somewhere interesting depending on your answer) in the case mohdoo cited, they'd probably make it back in time, I'm pretty sure you can't deny an american citizen entry to the country permanently. If they are working, living and contributing to your country they should be allowed in. Maybe they have temporary residence VISAs in order to work or study. Maybe they have intentions to join in, maybe they have applied for residency. Depending on my answer nothing interesting will happen. People who have never committed a crime, and who are trying to better themselves and your country should be given a chance. Full Stop. None of this "what if" crap. Canada, where I live, has brought in over 25, 000 syrian refugees. Want to know how many have gone and killed someone in the name of Allah? zero. And even if one or five, or ten did I wouldn't care. The kids the good parents brought with them deserve a life where they aren't afraid of dying, where they can get an education, where they can be safe. So no, there will be nowhere "interesting" for this to go. And I don't want to start going there. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 29 2017 07:35 zlefin wrote: what if the people live and work in your country, but aren't yet permanent residents or citizens? (I ask because it may lead to somewhere interesting depending on your answer) In this case, green card holders are being turned away so "aren't yet permanent residents" doesn't apply. | ||
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MyTHicaL
France1070 Posts
Nevermind this reaction: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/china-deploys-long-range-nuclear-cpable-missiles-russian-coast-us-president-donald-trump-a7548296.html http://uk.businessinsider.com/chinese-military-official-war-2017-1?r=US&IR=T Seems like some major chaos is going to happen, never would've thought that I'd prefer another Bush xd. I heard that the US ban on the countries of 7 are also in effect against people with dual nationality i.e. Somalian/American for example... | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On January 29 2017 07:30 zlefin wrote: It's not yet a major screwup I'd say, since it can still all be reversed quite quickly if he chooses to do so. more like a medium screwup, maybe even small if his supporters don't mind it. Let's say you went up to go shopping in Canada for an afternoon, and left your dog at home because you fed him in the morning, and you expected to be back by evening. Do you have anybody to take care of him? Do you have to get somebody(who isn't going to be denied entry) to drive up to Canada, grab your home key, go back down and feed your dog? They're denying greencard holders from going back, people who are basically american except for citizenship. Keep in mind not everybody is going to have the ability to just sit in a hotel somewhere for a few days while they figure shit out. They have families, jobs etc. to take care of. Seems like some major chaos is going to happen, never would've thought that I'd prefer another Bush xd. Bush wasn't a racist, xenophobic prick. | ||
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Karis Vas Ryaar
United States4396 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On January 29 2017 07:44 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: https://twitter.com/cbsMcCormick/status/825467471285125120 Trump's reaction to this is probably "I don't care, why would any american want to leave anyway?" Honestly, this is the kind of thing that results in major international issues. I hope to god the reasonable people in America can change course ASAP and minimize the damage already done. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On January 29 2017 07:40 ZeromuS wrote: If they are working, living and contributing to your country they should be allowed in. Maybe they have temporary residence VISAs in order to work or study. Maybe they have intentions to join in, maybe they have applied for residency. Depending on my answer nothing interesting will happen. People who have never committed a crime, and who are trying to better themselves and your country should be given a chance. Full Stop. None of this "what if" crap. Canada, where I live, has brought in over 25, 000 syrian refugees. Want to know how many have gone and killed someone in the name of Allah? zero. And even if one or five, or ten did I wouldn't care. The kids the good parents brought with them deserve a life where they aren't afraid of dying, where they can get an education, where they can be safe. So no, there will be nowhere "interesting" for this to go. And I don't want to start going there. I see. well, Canada does do a good job of course. but even it has peculiarities and imperfections I've some inlaws who live and work in canada for several years, and two of their kids are canadian by birth, but there was some time where one of them avoided travelling abroad iirc because they were having issues getting their visa renewed (they were in Canada on a work visa), and it was unclear they'd be let back in if they left Canada. Fortunately they were able to get it sorted eventually and I think they're getting residency approved now finally, after some years of trying. so all is good now. pesky bureaucracy. I consider that somewhat interesting, and I think ti's a fine place for the discussion to go to. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
Canada, one of America's closest allies, doesn't know how the immigration order will impact canadian citizens. Our government can't even tell Canadian/one of the 7 banned countries dual citizens if they can travel to the US because the US hasn't told our government. In what world is this okay? The Trump administration's diplomacy has to be some of the worst in modern history. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On January 29 2017 07:41 MyTHicaL wrote: Nevermind this reaction: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/china-deploys-long-range-nuclear-cpable-missiles-russian-coast-us-president-donald-trump-a7548296.html http://uk.businessinsider.com/chinese-military-official-war-2017-1?r=US&IR=T Meh, moving around ICBM's isn't really news. They can travel pretty far whether they're on the border or far from it. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On January 29 2017 07:41 Amui wrote: Let's say you went up to go shopping in Canada for an afternoon, and left your dog at home because you fed him in the morning, and you expected to be back by evening. Do you have anybody to take care of him? Do you have to get somebody(who isn't going to be denied entry) to drive up to Canada, grab your home key, go back down and feed your dog? They're denying greencard holders from going back, people who are basically american except for citizenship. Keep in mind not everybody is going to have the ability to just sit in a hotel somewhere for a few days while they figure shit out. They have families, jobs etc. to take care of. Bush wasn't a racist, xenophobic prick. until someone's died or equivalent damage done I'm not going to call it a major screwup. There's plenty of time, and odds are trump wil make a MAJOR screwup, so i'd like to save the word major screwup for something bigger than this. this is trump we're talking about, we don't want to use up our best/most extreme words too early, lest trump do something worse later on. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9647 Posts
On January 29 2017 07:52 zlefin wrote: until someone's died or equivalent damage done I'm not going to call it a major screwup. There's plenty of time, and odds are trump wil make a MAJOR screwup, so i'd like to save the word major screwup for something bigger than this. this is trump we're talking about, we don't want to use up our best/most extreme words too early, lest trump do something worse later on. A reasonable point. | ||
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