|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On November 10 2016 19:08 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 18:51 Thax wrote:On November 10 2016 18:45 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I'm seeing a huge number of people on social media angry with Trump and "racist" white people that voted him in. What I'm not seeing so much of is democratic supporters giving the DNC a grill over their shocking treatment of Sanders.The primaries were rigged against Sanders, who was destroying Trump in all the polls.
How about instead of protesting against Trump protest against the corrupt DNC and try to get some real change in that organisation.Then you've got a chance of getting a good candidate instead of an establishment shill like Clinton and with a decent chance of Trump being impeached in his first term the outlook could be good.
Personally i still think too many people are uninformed and just get their news from mainstream outlets who are completely discredited to anyone who is awake to the game.
Sites like HuffPo are hyperbolic right now, channel that anger toward positive change in your own party instead of this negativity.
Clinton also destroyed Trump in the polls. Every Sanders-fanboy who has taken this election to vote Trump or even third party as some sort of big fuck you to the establishment has blood on their hands. Trump is going to destroy lives and it's as much their fault as it is of racist white people. But then those fanboys would have to accept that they screwed up. Better to blame other things than yourself 
The Bernie fanboys who voted Trump/3rd party/anything but Hillary/... don't think they screwed up. They think they succeeded. And, you know, they kinda did. So what would they blame themselves for exactly?
The people who are angry on the streets are not the Bernie fanboys who refused to vote Hillary, I can tell you that.
|
On November 10 2016 19:17 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 19:08 sharkie wrote:On November 10 2016 18:51 Thax wrote:On November 10 2016 18:45 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I'm seeing a huge number of people on social media angry with Trump and "racist" white people that voted him in. What I'm not seeing so much of is democratic supporters giving the DNC a grill over their shocking treatment of Sanders.The primaries were rigged against Sanders, who was destroying Trump in all the polls.
How about instead of protesting against Trump protest against the corrupt DNC and try to get some real change in that organisation.Then you've got a chance of getting a good candidate instead of an establishment shill like Clinton and with a decent chance of Trump being impeached in his first term the outlook could be good.
Personally i still think too many people are uninformed and just get their news from mainstream outlets who are completely discredited to anyone who is awake to the game.
Sites like HuffPo are hyperbolic right now, channel that anger toward positive change in your own party instead of this negativity.
Clinton also destroyed Trump in the polls. Every Sanders-fanboy who has taken this election to vote Trump or even third party as some sort of big fuck you to the establishment has blood on their hands. Trump is going to destroy lives and it's as much their fault as it is of racist white people. But then those fanboys would have to accept that they screwed up. Better to blame other things than yourself  The Bernie fanboys who voted Trump/3rd party/anything but Hillary/... don't think they screwed up. They think they succeeded. And, you know, they kinda did. So what would they blame themselves for exactly?
Giving the country a worse direction based on the principles they claim to have.
|
On November 10 2016 19:20 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 19:17 Laurens wrote:On November 10 2016 19:08 sharkie wrote:On November 10 2016 18:51 Thax wrote:On November 10 2016 18:45 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I'm seeing a huge number of people on social media angry with Trump and "racist" white people that voted him in. What I'm not seeing so much of is democratic supporters giving the DNC a grill over their shocking treatment of Sanders.The primaries were rigged against Sanders, who was destroying Trump in all the polls.
How about instead of protesting against Trump protest against the corrupt DNC and try to get some real change in that organisation.Then you've got a chance of getting a good candidate instead of an establishment shill like Clinton and with a decent chance of Trump being impeached in his first term the outlook could be good.
Personally i still think too many people are uninformed and just get their news from mainstream outlets who are completely discredited to anyone who is awake to the game.
Sites like HuffPo are hyperbolic right now, channel that anger toward positive change in your own party instead of this negativity.
Clinton also destroyed Trump in the polls. Every Sanders-fanboy who has taken this election to vote Trump or even third party as some sort of big fuck you to the establishment has blood on their hands. Trump is going to destroy lives and it's as much their fault as it is of racist white people. But then those fanboys would have to accept that they screwed up. Better to blame other things than yourself  The Bernie fanboys who voted Trump/3rd party/anything but Hillary/... don't think they screwed up. They think they succeeded. And, you know, they kinda did. So what would they blame themselves for exactly? Giving the country a worse direction based on the principles they claim to have.
First of all, Trump's policies may be closer to Sanders than you think. Read here: www.theatlantic.com
Secondly, perhaps they valued the principle of an honest primary more than the candidate's policies. Corruption stinks.
And finally, whether the country is actually going in a worse direction onder Trump is obviously up for debate. It would seem that roughly half the population disagrees.
|
On November 10 2016 19:27 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 19:20 Nebuchad wrote:On November 10 2016 19:17 Laurens wrote:On November 10 2016 19:08 sharkie wrote:On November 10 2016 18:51 Thax wrote:On November 10 2016 18:45 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I'm seeing a huge number of people on social media angry with Trump and "racist" white people that voted him in. What I'm not seeing so much of is democratic supporters giving the DNC a grill over their shocking treatment of Sanders.The primaries were rigged against Sanders, who was destroying Trump in all the polls.
How about instead of protesting against Trump protest against the corrupt DNC and try to get some real change in that organisation.Then you've got a chance of getting a good candidate instead of an establishment shill like Clinton and with a decent chance of Trump being impeached in his first term the outlook could be good.
Personally i still think too many people are uninformed and just get their news from mainstream outlets who are completely discredited to anyone who is awake to the game.
Sites like HuffPo are hyperbolic right now, channel that anger toward positive change in your own party instead of this negativity.
Clinton also destroyed Trump in the polls. Every Sanders-fanboy who has taken this election to vote Trump or even third party as some sort of big fuck you to the establishment has blood on their hands. Trump is going to destroy lives and it's as much their fault as it is of racist white people. But then those fanboys would have to accept that they screwed up. Better to blame other things than yourself  The Bernie fanboys who voted Trump/3rd party/anything but Hillary/... don't think they screwed up. They think they succeeded. And, you know, they kinda did. So what would they blame themselves for exactly? Giving the country a worse direction based on the principles they claim to have. First of all, Trump's policies may be closer to Sanders than you think. Read here: www.theatlantic.comSecondly, perhaps they valued the principle of an honest primary more than the candidate's policies. Corruption stinks. And finally, whether the country is actually going in a worse direction onder Trump is obviously up for debate. It would seem that roughly half the population disagrees.
- Sanders wants to fight for climate change more. Clinton is criticized because she doesn't want to do enough. Trump wants to do less. - Sanders wants to fight income inequality. Clinton is criticized because she doesn't want to do enough. Trump is going to (and arguably wants to) increase it. - Sanders says he's against this trade deal. Clinton says she's against this trade deal. Trump says he's against this trade deal. There is no policy difference, there is just a difference in trust. You don't trust Hillary at her word, and you trust Trump at his word. Trump has a history to show that he's untrustworthy, and has benefitted from those trade deals in the past, and would likely benefit from this one as well. - Sanders wants to improve Obamacare. Clinton is criticized for not doing enough about Obamacare. Trump is going to remove it. - Sanders wants the US to do less war. Clinton is criticized for being a war hawk. Trump increases defense spending and has James Woolsey (one of the biggest neocons) as a senior advisor on foreign affairs. He talks about doing terrorism himself to fight terrorism. - Sanders is left wing. Clinton is criticized because she's not left wing enough. Trump is even more right wing.
Clinton is rightfully perceived as dishonest. Trump is wrongfully perceived as less dishonest.
The question was what would the supporters blame themselves for. Obviously if the country does incredibly well under Trump, they won't blame themselves. Signs point to that not being the case, regardless of what percentage of Americans thought it would be.
|
Sweden33719 Posts
On November 10 2016 18:51 Thax wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 18:45 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I'm seeing a huge number of people on social media angry with Trump and "racist" white people that voted him in. What I'm not seeing so much of is democratic supporters giving the DNC a grill over their shocking treatment of Sanders.The primaries were rigged against Sanders, who was destroying Trump in all the polls.
How about instead of protesting against Trump protest against the corrupt DNC and try to get some real change in that organisation.Then you've got a chance of getting a good candidate instead of an establishment shill like Clinton and with a decent chance of Trump being impeached in his first term the outlook could be good.
Personally i still think too many people are uninformed and just get their news from mainstream outlets who are completely discredited to anyone who is awake to the game.
Sites like HuffPo are hyperbolic right now, channel that anger toward positive change in your own party instead of this negativity.
Clinton also destroyed Trump in the polls. Every Sanders-fanboy who has taken this election to vote Trump or even third party as some sort of big fuck you to the establishment has blood on their hands. Trump is going to destroy lives and it's as much their fault as it is of racist white people. Given that he won the elections fairly, I think it's really poor form to pre-emptively talk about him ruining lives.
Maybe he'll be good. Maybe he will be awful. I strongly dislike him, but you gotta give him a chance to actually be president before talking about how bad he is at it.
|
On November 10 2016 19:27 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 19:20 Nebuchad wrote:On November 10 2016 19:17 Laurens wrote:On November 10 2016 19:08 sharkie wrote:On November 10 2016 18:51 Thax wrote:On November 10 2016 18:45 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I'm seeing a huge number of people on social media angry with Trump and "racist" white people that voted him in. What I'm not seeing so much of is democratic supporters giving the DNC a grill over their shocking treatment of Sanders.The primaries were rigged against Sanders, who was destroying Trump in all the polls.
How about instead of protesting against Trump protest against the corrupt DNC and try to get some real change in that organisation.Then you've got a chance of getting a good candidate instead of an establishment shill like Clinton and with a decent chance of Trump being impeached in his first term the outlook could be good.
Personally i still think too many people are uninformed and just get their news from mainstream outlets who are completely discredited to anyone who is awake to the game.
Sites like HuffPo are hyperbolic right now, channel that anger toward positive change in your own party instead of this negativity.
Clinton also destroyed Trump in the polls. Every Sanders-fanboy who has taken this election to vote Trump or even third party as some sort of big fuck you to the establishment has blood on their hands. Trump is going to destroy lives and it's as much their fault as it is of racist white people. But then those fanboys would have to accept that they screwed up. Better to blame other things than yourself  The Bernie fanboys who voted Trump/3rd party/anything but Hillary/... don't think they screwed up. They think they succeeded. And, you know, they kinda did. So what would they blame themselves for exactly? Giving the country a worse direction based on the principles they claim to have. First of all, Trump's policies may be closer to Sanders than you think. Read here: www.theatlantic.comSecondly, perhaps they valued the principle of an honest primary more than the candidate's policies. Corruption stinks. And finally, whether the country is actually going in a worse direction onder Trump is obviously up for debate. It would seem that roughly half the population disagrees. Some mistakes are so breathtaking that it does take a deserved loss to get your own house in order. It might mean putting up with policies you consider destructive for a few years. Victory at any cost has some merits, but compromise too much in what you're willing to accept in a candidate and your base doesn't turn out to vote. Why reward the people that will always say X election is too important to worry about the rest?
The New Republic kinda captured the elitist and tone-deaf sentiment when they put up an article basically expecting Trump's loss.
Today Is Not a Day for Celebration
Even if Trump loses, America must reckon with the hatred that he exposed.
If Donald Trump loses the presidential election on Tuesday, we will be flooded with celebratory and consoling commentary: The system worked! America is better than this demagogue! The changing demographics of the country will forever keep ethno-nationalists out of the White House! [...]
As welcome as Trump’s loss will be, such celebration and consolation would be premature. The majority of voters will have done their duty to protect our democracy—and perhaps the world—from a grave threat, but we cannot move on so easily. Not until America grapples with the hatred that made Trump so successful.
+ Show Spoiler [Much Funnier Now] +Well, actually, "Says Who" is practically the takeaway of the election.
|
On November 10 2016 19:48 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 18:51 Thax wrote:On November 10 2016 18:45 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I'm seeing a huge number of people on social media angry with Trump and "racist" white people that voted him in. What I'm not seeing so much of is democratic supporters giving the DNC a grill over their shocking treatment of Sanders.The primaries were rigged against Sanders, who was destroying Trump in all the polls.
How about instead of protesting against Trump protest against the corrupt DNC and try to get some real change in that organisation.Then you've got a chance of getting a good candidate instead of an establishment shill like Clinton and with a decent chance of Trump being impeached in his first term the outlook could be good.
Personally i still think too many people are uninformed and just get their news from mainstream outlets who are completely discredited to anyone who is awake to the game.
Sites like HuffPo are hyperbolic right now, channel that anger toward positive change in your own party instead of this negativity.
Clinton also destroyed Trump in the polls. Every Sanders-fanboy who has taken this election to vote Trump or even third party as some sort of big fuck you to the establishment has blood on their hands. Trump is going to destroy lives and it's as much their fault as it is of racist white people. Given that he won the elections fairly, I think it's really poor form to pre-emptively talk about him ruining lives. Maybe he'll be good. Maybe he will be awful. I strongly dislike him, but you gotta give him a chance to actually be president before talking about how bad he is at it.
I would say the word "fairly" is up for debate here, considering he didn't win the majority vote (or at least seems like he won't based on the numbers right now).
I haven't followed this thread long so I apologise if this has been discussed to death already, but the american "Democracy" is too screwed up. First off not all US citizens, even those born and raised in the US without any criminal history, is allowed to vote.
Secondly, your vote might be completely pointless depending on what state you live in. If you're in a sure Democrat or Republic state, you might as well not vote because it's going to count for exactly nothing (I'm not saying not to vote. Always vote. At least that way there's a chance, even if it's tiny). Then there's the problem with the Electoral College being unfairly distributed, or the fact that it's existing at all. It's purpose was two folds: Logistical (which isn't relevant anymore), and to give "the little guys in the rural areas a bigger voice compared to those elitist people living in the big cities", the latter which is ridiculous. Even if you combine the biggest 100 cities in US, you're still not up to 20% of the whole population.
The EC is actually working against it's purpose right now, as the presidential candidates are not only ignoring the largest cities, but also the smallest states for all of their rallies. So the entire purpose of it right now is to give hillbilly Joe in the least populated states the largest vote for no apparent reason (which is usually republican, given that all 4 presidents who won without winning the popular vote have been republican).
That's not even touching on the way the whole system is built to support two parties backed by large corporations and donations in a way that would be counted as corruption in every other country.
|
On November 10 2016 19:48 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 18:51 Thax wrote:On November 10 2016 18:45 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I'm seeing a huge number of people on social media angry with Trump and "racist" white people that voted him in. What I'm not seeing so much of is democratic supporters giving the DNC a grill over their shocking treatment of Sanders.The primaries were rigged against Sanders, who was destroying Trump in all the polls.
How about instead of protesting against Trump protest against the corrupt DNC and try to get some real change in that organisation.Then you've got a chance of getting a good candidate instead of an establishment shill like Clinton and with a decent chance of Trump being impeached in his first term the outlook could be good.
Personally i still think too many people are uninformed and just get their news from mainstream outlets who are completely discredited to anyone who is awake to the game.
Sites like HuffPo are hyperbolic right now, channel that anger toward positive change in your own party instead of this negativity.
Clinton also destroyed Trump in the polls. Every Sanders-fanboy who has taken this election to vote Trump or even third party as some sort of big fuck you to the establishment has blood on their hands. Trump is going to destroy lives and it's as much their fault as it is of racist white people. Given that he won the elections fairly, I think it's really poor form to pre-emptively talk about him ruining lives. Maybe he'll be good. Maybe he will be awful. I strongly dislike him, but you gotta give him a chance to actually be president before talking about how bad he is at it. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeremy-symons/meet-trumps-pick-to-disma_b_12832350.html
Already starting to set back climate regulations 20+ years. I'd say he's off to an awful start already.
EDIT - as a Canadian, this is the same fucking air we breathe too, so this kind of shit affects us as much as it does the USA.
|
On November 10 2016 18:45 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I'm seeing a huge number of people on social media angry with Trump and "racist" white people that voted him in. What I'm not seeing so much of is democratic supporters giving the DNC a grill over their shocking treatment of Sanders.The primaries were rigged against Sanders, who was destroying Trump in all the polls.
Which party wouldn't support their actual leader that has been with them many years over a new member that joined specifically for the presidential bid? Even though they went too far with it, Sanders himself understood it and didn't hold a grudge, he saw that defeating Trump is more important than his feelings being hurt by the DNC.
If there would be any leaks from RNC/ GOP strategists, would you be surprised if they had similarly tried to make Trump lose during the primary? I reckon the reason they failed is mainly because Jeb wasn't as good a candidate as Hillary.
Sanders destroying Trump in polls tells us nothing about whether he would have won had he been the nominee. GOP & Trump threw almost nothing at Sanders, they focused on Clinton, not Sanders, from start to finish. For one because they expected her to win the primary, and two because Sanders winning would have been a massive boon for them at the time. They could have gone full Red Scare on him after the primaries and spam words such as 'socialism', 'taxes' and other boogeymen that spook most Americans. And of course if they focused on him they would have dug up other things to use as well, as they can with any person.
Whether this would have worked as well as attacking Clinton did, we don't know. Suggesting he would have crushed Trump is purely a guess.
On November 10 2016 18:45 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: How about instead of protesting against Trump protest against the corrupt DNC and try to get some real change in that organisation.Then you've got a chance of getting a good candidate instead of an establishment shill like Clinton and with a decent chance of Trump being impeached in his first term the outlook could be good.
How about both? You can walk and chew gum at the same time. Trump wouldn't have won this election in any other developed country. Americans should be upset that the fake it til you make it culture is so prevalent in the US that someone shitposted their way to the presidency knowing fuck all about any of the topics discussed in any of the debates and interviews of the past year.
Hell, we in Romania had a similar election in 2000, when our country was in a much worse state than it is now and far less educated than the US is now. A choice between someone hated by a large majority, seen as undeniably corrupt but competent and intelligent, and the other candidate was a right wing demagogue, talking nonsense loudly and confidently. The latter lost the runoff by a landslide.
At the time I was upset that those two made it to the runoff, thinking it would never happen in a western country, well now I can't help but be a little proud that we made the sane choice instead of saying 'they're both shit, what does it matter' and ending up stuck in the stone age like Moldova.
On November 10 2016 18:45 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Personally i still think too many people are uninformed and just get their news from mainstream outlets who are completely discredited to anyone who is awake to the game.
I think it doesn't so much matter where people get their news from as much as how critical they are of it. I also think you're the least appropriate person on this forum to make such an observation given the amount of stories from ZeroHedge, Drudge, and other such places you've promoted here that you believed by default even though they could have been disproved with 1 minute of googling or simply clicking on the links inside those very same articles, which most other people here were capable of.
|
+ Show Spoiler +The truth of it is that people are reacting so strongly because they are expecting worse than they are going to get. Climate is the biggest concern I have by a landslide. Trump's 100 day plan includes allowing for coal/oil/shale extraction from protected sites, a strong arm for pipelines through protected areas (specifically pointing to Keystone as his champion cause), promises to gut $50 billion of environmental spending to UN programs, promises to undo sanctions on pollution, and also has a bunch of clauses which, if implimented, would impact all fields, but including and especially climate science (such as his desire to require two regulations be removed arbitrarily if one regulation will be passed). He is appointing a leading climate change denier to the EPA, which he has discussed dismantling all together. He has discussed removing the FDA all together, removing educational advisement from his cabinet, and rewarding companies with tax incentives to expand in destructive areas while simultaneously promising to remove the restrictions put in place to mitigate harm done to the environment in the process. A lot of this he can get done via executive order. A lot of it beyond that he can get done with house and senate support, which he has. This is not an instance of conspiracy theories or "what ifs" being thrown around. He has promised these things, and has the tools to deliver. It would literally take him saying "naw nevermind" to stop this from happening. Any one of the items listed above would cause damage to the environment that will take decades, if not longer to reverse, if it even can be reversed at this point, during a time that we are already losing an uphill battle to protect our environment. And he's not talking about one item. He's talking about all of them, and has the ability, and intent, to do everything he says. And that's just enviroment. People have a right to be afraid. I would be afraid with a Clinton presidency because I wasn't sure she'd do enough. I would be afraid with a blue house/senate to stand in Trumps way, because I'd be worried they wouldn't do enough. What we actually have, is a scenario where people who deny climate change are now in un-checked power, and are salivating at the chance to make a quick buck off immeasurable damage to our planet. The planet will recover and move on, the question is if we will be around when it happens. This is not an issue that we can really afford to "wait 4 to 8 years and vote better next time." We have already reached the emergency point according to any scientist worth listening to. Forgive me if I don't see much opportunity for "it won't be so bad" when it comes to specifically climate change. I could ignore everything else he's doing (which I won't, but we're speaking hypothetically here) and I think stress and alarm is still perfectly in the scope of reason regarding his promises. Even if we "think" he'll do a ton of damage, but he only does a lot of damage, the damage is too severe and has ramifications too drastic to ignore.
Long post from reddit, but that's something every country will need to worry about. Trump's climate policies, with the power he has, are going to be absolutely disastrous, and he's too stupid and ignorant to listen to the people who actually understand the science. Sure, he'll make hundreds of millions more, and so will his rich buddies, and they'll all be dead before they see what they've caused, but as somebody who's probably going to have to live through it, I'm pretty scared for the future.
Also, IIRC Trump wins the election only in USA and Russia. Every other developed country in the world would've elected Clinton by a pretty large margin. Can't remember where I saw the poll, but a ton of my friends are super upset that Trump won, even if it was a legit win.
|
On November 10 2016 14:15 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 13:19 LegalLord wrote:On November 10 2016 13:11 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 13:01 LegalLord wrote:On November 10 2016 13:00 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 12:57 LegalLord wrote:On November 10 2016 12:52 xDaunt wrote:On November 10 2016 12:38 TheYango wrote:On November 10 2016 12:17 Blisse wrote: If you guys keep engaging in this anti-liberal rhetoric, as all the reasonable liberals are trying to figure out what they can do to make everyone (minorities AND rural whites) feel included in the future of America now that we realize it's a legitimate concern (because hey, tons of us took that for granted and this result is a wake up call), you dis-illusion the people who actually want to help and effect positive change for everyone. Stop it. I won't name names, but there are clearly Trump supporters who have been more and less graceful in victory. Let's just say that, to the extent that some Trump supporters have taken victory laps around here, it's been far more subdued than what we saw from the other side in 2012. Strange, I don't remember things being quite so bad back then. Though I wouldn't say that there was anything particularly disgraceful I saw among the current winning group either... Ask the few conservatives who are still around from back then. We remember. Come to think of it, I'm not sure I remember you being a conservative either. I swear I remember you being something of an Obama supporter - though you posted with the same concision that you do now, that made it difficult to tell. You must have been high. Huh. I guess intermittent participation makes it hard to remember who stood for what. I'm drawing a blank in trying to recall most of the participants from back then, much less what they stood for. Looking back, I only remember about 5% of the actual posters. Memory does play tricks on you. So for shits and giggles, I went back to the 2012 thread just to see if my recollection was accurate. It basically was, but what I'd forgotten is that I'm the only conservative regular left from back then. Danglars had a few posts, but he wasn't really that involved yet. And more to the point, I was basically "the" conservative guy in that thread. So instead of saying "we remember" when referring to the victory laps of the liberals in that thread, what I really should have said is "I remember." You can see the festivities start here, with various outbreaks of me being tea-bagged here and here. Consider this my gift to all of the broken-hearted Hillary supporters. I was there, I read every single post, and don't you forget it! And given the dearth of conservative posters on TL, you had better put that 'we' back in there goddamnit! My eyes can never unsee some of that drivel so you bet I'm taking credit for being there from the beginning. /stodgy old curmudgeon off
You were the guy that would "take them up on it" when it was thread consensus that Obama did wonderful things and Romney & the Republicans did dastardly things. Now I expect you're a wee bit more cynical on making inroads in the liberal psyche given the feuds, title of Thread Racist (read it like House Slave), and newer posting style explained in Feedback. And hell, back then when JonnyBNoHo, you, and I'm sure a couple others I'm forgetting, named all the correct points, and generally argued better, I'm too much of a capitalist to repeat the labor for free.
But back on topic, then as now, the Europeans made sure a hundred times over we knew who the world wanted as the US president. Then it was Obama, and boy did they rub our noses in it for the Obama win, or try to. Today it was Clinton with faint scents of dissatisfaction. Pardon me if America does things a little differently and this is the beta test of a significant course-correction with a hefty dose of damage control in the wake of the Obama presidency. You'll do well to question what you think you know about the frequently demeaned voting populace that elected Trump with good reason.
|
Two days ago, pollsters and statisticians gave Hillary Clinton odds of between 75 and 99 percent of winning the U.S. presidential election. How did so many get it so wrong?
In hindsight, the polling consensus went astray in two major ways.
The media, including Reuters, pumped out two kinds of poll stories. Some were national surveys designed to estimate the entire country’s popular vote, but not the outcome in individual states, where the contest is actually decided. These polls actually got the big picture right: Clinton won more overall votes than President-elect Donald Trump - but not by as much as the polling averages predicted, and not where she needed to.
News organizations also produced a blizzard of stories meant to calculate the probability of victory for the two candidates. These calculations were predicated on polls of individual states. In hindsight, though, the stories seem to have overstated Clinton’s chances for a win by failing to see that a shift in voting patterns in some states could show up in other, similar states.
In part, this is because polling analysts got the central metaphor wrong.
U.S. presidents are chosen not by the national popular vote, but in the individual Electoral College contests in the 50 states and Washington D.C. In calculating probable outcomes, election predictors generally treated those 51 contests as completely separate events – as unrelated to one another as a series of 51 coin tosses.
But that’s not how elections work in the United States. Voting trends that appear in one state - such as a larger-than-expected Republican shift among rural voters - tend to show up in other states with similar demographic make-ups.
And that’s what happened Tuesday: The election models calculated the probabilities of a Clinton win that turned out to be high, because they viewed each state too much in isolation.
The Reuters/Ipsos States of the Nation project projected Clinton to win the popular vote 45 percent to 42 percent, and gave her a 90 percent probability of winning the 270 electoral votes needed to secure the election. In the end, Clinton won the popular vote by 47.7 percent to 47.5 percent, by the latest count, and Trump could win the Electoral College by as many as 303 votes to Clinton’s 233 when the tally is final.
The state races were not akin to a string of coin tosses but more like 51 rolls of a set of weighted dice. In many states, it turned out, the side of the dice representing white voters in suburban and rural counties carried a heavier weight, and the side representing urbanites a lighter one.
COMMON MISCALCULATIONS
The problem, said Cliff Young, president of Ipsos Public Affairs US, the polling partner of Reuters, came down to the models the pollsters used to predict who would vote - the so-called likely voters.
The models almost universally miscalculated how turnout was distributed among different demographic groups, Young said. And turnout was lower than expected, a result that generally favors Republican candidates.
In 2000, when Republican George W. Bush beat Democrat Al Gore, for example, the turnout was about 60 percent, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. Eight years later, turnout was 64 percent when Democratic nominee Barack Obama won his first presidential election against Republican Arizona Sen. John McCain.
This year, “whites with lower levels of education came out in greater relative numbers than younger, more-educated and minority voters,” Young said. “A point here or a point there can really change an election.”
Ultimately, missing that shift in the state polls tripped up the predictions. It also highlights how the otherwise empirical process of polling rests on a subjective foundation.
Each pollster must make a decision about turnout. Their decisions are informed by historical voting patterns. But the actual turnout in each state is unknowable before election day.
Among the questions pollsters grappled with this year: Will the electorate look like the won that gave Obama his 2008 victory - or George W. Bush in his 2000 victory? Would black turnout fall after the historically high turnout enjoyed by Obama, the nation’s first black president, and by how much?
“Key for me is turnout in explaining this year’s polling miss,” Young said. The Reuters/Ipsos model anticipated turnout for white men, for example, at around 67 percent, which appears to have been too low, and for black women at 61 percent, which was probably too high. Demographic breakdowns aren’t available yet.
Drew Linzer, a pollster and creator of the Daily Kos Elections forecasting model, which forecasts the Electoral College result by aggregating large numbers of state polls, said prediction models like his try to estimate the possibility of an unexpected turnout shift.
But ultimately, he said, the effectiveness of the models came down to the accuracy of the underlying state polls’ likely-voter models. Linzer’s model predicted a large win for Clinton in the Electoral College, 323 to 215. And because those polls missed the mark, it created an illusion of a near-certain Clinton win. www.reuters.com
|
On November 10 2016 20:23 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 19:48 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 10 2016 18:51 Thax wrote:On November 10 2016 18:45 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I'm seeing a huge number of people on social media angry with Trump and "racist" white people that voted him in. What I'm not seeing so much of is democratic supporters giving the DNC a grill over their shocking treatment of Sanders.The primaries were rigged against Sanders, who was destroying Trump in all the polls.
How about instead of protesting against Trump protest against the corrupt DNC and try to get some real change in that organisation.Then you've got a chance of getting a good candidate instead of an establishment shill like Clinton and with a decent chance of Trump being impeached in his first term the outlook could be good.
Personally i still think too many people are uninformed and just get their news from mainstream outlets who are completely discredited to anyone who is awake to the game.
Sites like HuffPo are hyperbolic right now, channel that anger toward positive change in your own party instead of this negativity.
Clinton also destroyed Trump in the polls. Every Sanders-fanboy who has taken this election to vote Trump or even third party as some sort of big fuck you to the establishment has blood on their hands. Trump is going to destroy lives and it's as much their fault as it is of racist white people. Given that he won the elections fairly, I think it's really poor form to pre-emptively talk about him ruining lives. Maybe he'll be good. Maybe he will be awful. I strongly dislike him, but you gotta give him a chance to actually be president before talking about how bad he is at it. I would say the word "fairly" is up for debate here, considering he didn't win the majority vote (or at least seems like he won't based on the numbers right now). I haven't followed this thread long so I apologise if this has been discussed to death already, but the american "Democracy" is too screwed up. First off not all US citizens, even those born and raised in the US without any criminal history, is allowed to vote. Secondly, your vote might be completely pointless depending on what state you live in. If you're in a sure Democrat or Republic state, you might as well not vote because it's going to count for exactly nothing (I'm not saying not to vote. Always vote. At least that way there's a chance, even if it's tiny). Then there's the problem with the Electoral College being unfairly distributed, or the fact that it's existing at all. It's purpose was two folds: Logistical (which isn't relevant anymore), and to give "the little guys in the rural areas a bigger voice compared to those elitist people living in the big cities", the latter which is ridiculous. Even if you combine the biggest 100 cities in US, you're still not up to 20% of the whole population. The EC is actually working against it's purpose right now, as the presidential candidates are not only ignoring the largest cities, but also the smallest states for all of their rallies. So the entire purpose of it right now is to give hillbilly Joe in the least populated states the largest vote for no apparent reason (which is usually republican, given that all 4 presidents who won without winning the popular vote have been republican). That's not even touching on the way the whole system is built to support two parties backed by large corporations and donations in a way that would be counted as corruption in every other country.
Fairly certain you're just spouting drivel here. Yes, if you just take the population of just the city municipalities, you're probably right (haven't done the math). But what you're then saying is that LA has under 4million inhabitants, whereas the LA metropolitan area, which is what you can reasonably count as "elitist people living in big cities", has 12.8million inhabitants (LA county + OC). This doesn't count Ventura and other surrounding metropolitan areas, which would add up to a further 10million inhabitants.
The same goes for NYC: the city itself has an official population of 8million, but the NYC-Newark-JC area has 20million inhabitants. That means that taking those two areas together you are already over 10% of the population. All we need to do is add Chicago (10million), Dallas-Fort Worth (7million) and Houston (6.5million) to easily break 20% of the US population. Giving a voice to sparsely populated rural areas is a perfectly valid goal. A discussion can (and should) be had over how much their influence should be (how much more should voters in sparsely populated areas be weighted than those in densely populated areas), but I have lived in enough areas to know that what is good policy for cities is often terrible policy for the countryside.
I agree with you that the Electoral College in its current format is outdated. I just disagree with you on that a strictly proportional vote is really better.
|
On November 10 2016 19:47 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 19:27 Laurens wrote:On November 10 2016 19:20 Nebuchad wrote:On November 10 2016 19:17 Laurens wrote:On November 10 2016 19:08 sharkie wrote:On November 10 2016 18:51 Thax wrote:On November 10 2016 18:45 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I'm seeing a huge number of people on social media angry with Trump and "racist" white people that voted him in. What I'm not seeing so much of is democratic supporters giving the DNC a grill over their shocking treatment of Sanders.The primaries were rigged against Sanders, who was destroying Trump in all the polls.
How about instead of protesting against Trump protest against the corrupt DNC and try to get some real change in that organisation.Then you've got a chance of getting a good candidate instead of an establishment shill like Clinton and with a decent chance of Trump being impeached in his first term the outlook could be good.
Personally i still think too many people are uninformed and just get their news from mainstream outlets who are completely discredited to anyone who is awake to the game.
Sites like HuffPo are hyperbolic right now, channel that anger toward positive change in your own party instead of this negativity.
Clinton also destroyed Trump in the polls. Every Sanders-fanboy who has taken this election to vote Trump or even third party as some sort of big fuck you to the establishment has blood on their hands. Trump is going to destroy lives and it's as much their fault as it is of racist white people. But then those fanboys would have to accept that they screwed up. Better to blame other things than yourself  The Bernie fanboys who voted Trump/3rd party/anything but Hillary/... don't think they screwed up. They think they succeeded. And, you know, they kinda did. So what would they blame themselves for exactly? Giving the country a worse direction based on the principles they claim to have. First of all, Trump's policies may be closer to Sanders than you think. Read here: www.theatlantic.comSecondly, perhaps they valued the principle of an honest primary more than the candidate's policies. Corruption stinks. And finally, whether the country is actually going in a worse direction onder Trump is obviously up for debate. It would seem that roughly half the population disagrees. - Sanders wants to fight for climate change more. Clinton is criticized because she doesn't want to do enough. Trump wants to do less. - Sanders wants to fight income inequality. Clinton is criticized because she doesn't want to do enough. Trump is going to (and arguably wants to) increase it. - Sanders says he's against this trade deal. Clinton says she's against this trade deal. Trump says he's against this trade deal. There is no policy difference, there is just a difference in trust. You don't trust Hillary at her word, and you trust Trump at his word. Trump has a history to show that he's untrustworthy, and has benefitted from those trade deals in the past, and would likely benefit from this one as well. - Sanders wants to improve Obamacare. Clinton is criticized for not doing enough about Obamacare. Trump is going to remove it. - Sanders wants the US to do less war. Clinton is criticized for being a war hawk. Trump increases defense spending and has James Comey (one of the biggest neocons) as a senior advisor on foreign affairs. He talks about doing terrorism himself to fight terrorism. - Sanders is left wing. Clinton is criticized because she's not left wing enough. Trump is even more right wing. Clinton is rightfully perceived as dishonest. Trump is wrongfully perceived as less dishonest. The question was what would the supporters blame themselves for. Obviously if the country does incredibly well under Trump, they won't blame themselves. Signs point to that not being the case, regardless of what percentage of Americans thought it would be.
That's not very hard to understand, perception is not fact, even more in this stupid reality show that has become politics : Clinton = Wall Street + most of newspapers + Hollywood and other stars = member of the etablishment Trump is super rich and he has nothing in common with a guy of the worker class nor will serve their interest but THEY were against him and it serves him greatly. Sanders has denounce this economic system in a very strong way which makes him appear as a fresh blood. A large part of the vote for Trump was the same as the one for Sanders : against the elites even if Trump is one them, financially at least. The same goes for Lepen who operates a leftist orientation which is a true success in the lower class while the left, since the very sad fall of the communist party, is largely bourgeoise, full of contempt and more and more liberal. I won't vote for a member of the républicain or the PS against Lepen at the presidentiel because this statu quo will just give more austerity reform and a political stronger Lepen in 2022. I am not gonna vote for a new el khomri law, this is silly. The analysis made by many liberals that the Trump vote is motivated by racism might be largely false, in the same way, it is not a vote of a particular community as the liberals said, at least not only, this is a vote against economical globalisation and the fact that liberal says "this is racism" erases the economic domain. Finally, they do not grasp this reality make this world just like the french ancien regime. Except there are no more enlightment.
Edit: in fact, I am pretty sure some of them did but hey, liberals are the elite, they're all for these absurd globalisation, so restricting some factors in the electoral analysis seems pretty coherent.
|
On November 10 2016 20:58 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 20:23 Excludos wrote:On November 10 2016 19:48 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 10 2016 18:51 Thax wrote:On November 10 2016 18:45 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I'm seeing a huge number of people on social media angry with Trump and "racist" white people that voted him in. What I'm not seeing so much of is democratic supporters giving the DNC a grill over their shocking treatment of Sanders.The primaries were rigged against Sanders, who was destroying Trump in all the polls.
How about instead of protesting against Trump protest against the corrupt DNC and try to get some real change in that organisation.Then you've got a chance of getting a good candidate instead of an establishment shill like Clinton and with a decent chance of Trump being impeached in his first term the outlook could be good.
Personally i still think too many people are uninformed and just get their news from mainstream outlets who are completely discredited to anyone who is awake to the game.
Sites like HuffPo are hyperbolic right now, channel that anger toward positive change in your own party instead of this negativity.
Clinton also destroyed Trump in the polls. Every Sanders-fanboy who has taken this election to vote Trump or even third party as some sort of big fuck you to the establishment has blood on their hands. Trump is going to destroy lives and it's as much their fault as it is of racist white people. Given that he won the elections fairly, I think it's really poor form to pre-emptively talk about him ruining lives. Maybe he'll be good. Maybe he will be awful. I strongly dislike him, but you gotta give him a chance to actually be president before talking about how bad he is at it. I would say the word "fairly" is up for debate here, considering he didn't win the majority vote (or at least seems like he won't based on the numbers right now). I haven't followed this thread long so I apologise if this has been discussed to death already, but the american "Democracy" is too screwed up. First off not all US citizens, even those born and raised in the US without any criminal history, is allowed to vote. Secondly, your vote might be completely pointless depending on what state you live in. If you're in a sure Democrat or Republic state, you might as well not vote because it's going to count for exactly nothing (I'm not saying not to vote. Always vote. At least that way there's a chance, even if it's tiny). Then there's the problem with the Electoral College being unfairly distributed, or the fact that it's existing at all. It's purpose was two folds: Logistical (which isn't relevant anymore), and to give "the little guys in the rural areas a bigger voice compared to those elitist people living in the big cities", the latter which is ridiculous. Even if you combine the biggest 100 cities in US, you're still not up to 20% of the whole population. The EC is actually working against it's purpose right now, as the presidential candidates are not only ignoring the largest cities, but also the smallest states for all of their rallies. So the entire purpose of it right now is to give hillbilly Joe in the least populated states the largest vote for no apparent reason (which is usually republican, given that all 4 presidents who won without winning the popular vote have been republican). That's not even touching on the way the whole system is built to support two parties backed by large corporations and donations in a way that would be counted as corruption in every other country. Fairly certain you're just spouting drivel here. Yes, if you just take the population of just the city municipalities, you're probably right (haven't done the math). But what you're then saying is that LA has under 4million inhabitants, whereas the LA metropolitan area, which is what you can reasonably count as "elitist people living in big cities", has 12.8million inhabitants (LA county + OC). This doesn't count Ventura and other surrounding metropolitan areas, which would add up to a further 10million inhabitants. The same goes for NYC: the city itself has an official population of 8million, but the NYC-Newark-JC area has 20million inhabitants. That means that taking those two areas together you are already over 10% of the population. All we need to do is add Chicago (10million), Dallas-Fort Worth (7million) and Houston (6.5million) to easily break 20% of the US population. Giving a voice to sparsely populated rural areas is a perfectly valid goal. A discussion can (and should) be had over how much their influence should be (how much more should voters in sparsely populated areas be weighted than those in densely populated areas), but I have lived in enough areas to know that what is good policy for cities is often terrible policy for the countryside. I agree with you that the Electoral College in its current format is outdated. I just disagree with you on that a strictly proportional vote is really better.
I don't really understand the reasoning in this statement. Isn't one of the main ideas of democracy that all people have an equal vote, no matter who they are? Why should rural farmers have more votes than people in cities? If we are following this route, why not give more votes to smarter people? Or richer, as they have more at stake?
This whole idea that rural people should have more votes seems to mostly be justifying that it has historically been like this in the US, and thus there must be a reason for it. To me, it seems fundamentally undemocratic to give people living in cities less votes just because rural people have historically been given overproportional representation and would be sad to lose that.
|
On November 10 2016 21:19 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 20:58 Acrofales wrote:On November 10 2016 20:23 Excludos wrote:On November 10 2016 19:48 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 10 2016 18:51 Thax wrote:On November 10 2016 18:45 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I'm seeing a huge number of people on social media angry with Trump and "racist" white people that voted him in. What I'm not seeing so much of is democratic supporters giving the DNC a grill over their shocking treatment of Sanders.The primaries were rigged against Sanders, who was destroying Trump in all the polls.
How about instead of protesting against Trump protest against the corrupt DNC and try to get some real change in that organisation.Then you've got a chance of getting a good candidate instead of an establishment shill like Clinton and with a decent chance of Trump being impeached in his first term the outlook could be good.
Personally i still think too many people are uninformed and just get their news from mainstream outlets who are completely discredited to anyone who is awake to the game.
Sites like HuffPo are hyperbolic right now, channel that anger toward positive change in your own party instead of this negativity.
Clinton also destroyed Trump in the polls. Every Sanders-fanboy who has taken this election to vote Trump or even third party as some sort of big fuck you to the establishment has blood on their hands. Trump is going to destroy lives and it's as much their fault as it is of racist white people. Given that he won the elections fairly, I think it's really poor form to pre-emptively talk about him ruining lives. Maybe he'll be good. Maybe he will be awful. I strongly dislike him, but you gotta give him a chance to actually be president before talking about how bad he is at it. I would say the word "fairly" is up for debate here, considering he didn't win the majority vote (or at least seems like he won't based on the numbers right now). I haven't followed this thread long so I apologise if this has been discussed to death already, but the american "Democracy" is too screwed up. First off not all US citizens, even those born and raised in the US without any criminal history, is allowed to vote. Secondly, your vote might be completely pointless depending on what state you live in. If you're in a sure Democrat or Republic state, you might as well not vote because it's going to count for exactly nothing (I'm not saying not to vote. Always vote. At least that way there's a chance, even if it's tiny). Then there's the problem with the Electoral College being unfairly distributed, or the fact that it's existing at all. It's purpose was two folds: Logistical (which isn't relevant anymore), and to give "the little guys in the rural areas a bigger voice compared to those elitist people living in the big cities", the latter which is ridiculous. Even if you combine the biggest 100 cities in US, you're still not up to 20% of the whole population. The EC is actually working against it's purpose right now, as the presidential candidates are not only ignoring the largest cities, but also the smallest states for all of their rallies. So the entire purpose of it right now is to give hillbilly Joe in the least populated states the largest vote for no apparent reason (which is usually republican, given that all 4 presidents who won without winning the popular vote have been republican). That's not even touching on the way the whole system is built to support two parties backed by large corporations and donations in a way that would be counted as corruption in every other country. Fairly certain you're just spouting drivel here. Yes, if you just take the population of just the city municipalities, you're probably right (haven't done the math). But what you're then saying is that LA has under 4million inhabitants, whereas the LA metropolitan area, which is what you can reasonably count as "elitist people living in big cities", has 12.8million inhabitants (LA county + OC). This doesn't count Ventura and other surrounding metropolitan areas, which would add up to a further 10million inhabitants. The same goes for NYC: the city itself has an official population of 8million, but the NYC-Newark-JC area has 20million inhabitants. That means that taking those two areas together you are already over 10% of the population. All we need to do is add Chicago (10million), Dallas-Fort Worth (7million) and Houston (6.5million) to easily break 20% of the US population. Giving a voice to sparsely populated rural areas is a perfectly valid goal. A discussion can (and should) be had over how much their influence should be (how much more should voters in sparsely populated areas be weighted than those in densely populated areas), but I have lived in enough areas to know that what is good policy for cities is often terrible policy for the countryside. I agree with you that the Electoral College in its current format is outdated. I just disagree with you on that a strictly proportional vote is really better. I don't really understand the reasoning in this statement. Isn't one of the main ideas of democracy that all people have an equal vote, no matter who they are? Why should rural farmers have more votes than people in cities? If we are following this route, why not give more votes to smarter people? Or richer, as they have more at stake? This whole idea that rural people should have more votes seems to mostly be justifying that it has historically been like this in the US, and thus there must be a reason for it. To me, it seems fundamentally undemocratic to give people living in cities less votes just because rural people have historically been given overproportional representation and would be sad to lose that.
The entire argument is dumb.
The system is known to everyone beforehand. Discussions after the facts about "if we did it in X way then candidate Y would have won" are useless.
I can assure you that thousands of voters did not bother to vote because they live in states where one of the parties is 100% gonna win. Whether he wins with 100 votes or 50000 votes is irrelevant, winner takes all. If you tell these people beforehand "oh every single vote will count now" obviously voter behavior will change.
All of this certainly does not mean that it's a good system, but trying to fit current data in a different system is just silly.
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
looking forward to trump restricting globalization.
on the positive side, germany now the leader of the free world.
|
On November 10 2016 21:24 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 21:19 Simberto wrote:On November 10 2016 20:58 Acrofales wrote:On November 10 2016 20:23 Excludos wrote:On November 10 2016 19:48 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 10 2016 18:51 Thax wrote:On November 10 2016 18:45 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I'm seeing a huge number of people on social media angry with Trump and "racist" white people that voted him in. What I'm not seeing so much of is democratic supporters giving the DNC a grill over their shocking treatment of Sanders.The primaries were rigged against Sanders, who was destroying Trump in all the polls.
How about instead of protesting against Trump protest against the corrupt DNC and try to get some real change in that organisation.Then you've got a chance of getting a good candidate instead of an establishment shill like Clinton and with a decent chance of Trump being impeached in his first term the outlook could be good.
Personally i still think too many people are uninformed and just get their news from mainstream outlets who are completely discredited to anyone who is awake to the game.
Sites like HuffPo are hyperbolic right now, channel that anger toward positive change in your own party instead of this negativity.
Clinton also destroyed Trump in the polls. Every Sanders-fanboy who has taken this election to vote Trump or even third party as some sort of big fuck you to the establishment has blood on their hands. Trump is going to destroy lives and it's as much their fault as it is of racist white people. Given that he won the elections fairly, I think it's really poor form to pre-emptively talk about him ruining lives. Maybe he'll be good. Maybe he will be awful. I strongly dislike him, but you gotta give him a chance to actually be president before talking about how bad he is at it. I would say the word "fairly" is up for debate here, considering he didn't win the majority vote (or at least seems like he won't based on the numbers right now). I haven't followed this thread long so I apologise if this has been discussed to death already, but the american "Democracy" is too screwed up. First off not all US citizens, even those born and raised in the US without any criminal history, is allowed to vote. Secondly, your vote might be completely pointless depending on what state you live in. If you're in a sure Democrat or Republic state, you might as well not vote because it's going to count for exactly nothing (I'm not saying not to vote. Always vote. At least that way there's a chance, even if it's tiny). Then there's the problem with the Electoral College being unfairly distributed, or the fact that it's existing at all. It's purpose was two folds: Logistical (which isn't relevant anymore), and to give "the little guys in the rural areas a bigger voice compared to those elitist people living in the big cities", the latter which is ridiculous. Even if you combine the biggest 100 cities in US, you're still not up to 20% of the whole population. The EC is actually working against it's purpose right now, as the presidential candidates are not only ignoring the largest cities, but also the smallest states for all of their rallies. So the entire purpose of it right now is to give hillbilly Joe in the least populated states the largest vote for no apparent reason (which is usually republican, given that all 4 presidents who won without winning the popular vote have been republican). That's not even touching on the way the whole system is built to support two parties backed by large corporations and donations in a way that would be counted as corruption in every other country. Fairly certain you're just spouting drivel here. Yes, if you just take the population of just the city municipalities, you're probably right (haven't done the math). But what you're then saying is that LA has under 4million inhabitants, whereas the LA metropolitan area, which is what you can reasonably count as "elitist people living in big cities", has 12.8million inhabitants (LA county + OC). This doesn't count Ventura and other surrounding metropolitan areas, which would add up to a further 10million inhabitants. The same goes for NYC: the city itself has an official population of 8million, but the NYC-Newark-JC area has 20million inhabitants. That means that taking those two areas together you are already over 10% of the population. All we need to do is add Chicago (10million), Dallas-Fort Worth (7million) and Houston (6.5million) to easily break 20% of the US population. Giving a voice to sparsely populated rural areas is a perfectly valid goal. A discussion can (and should) be had over how much their influence should be (how much more should voters in sparsely populated areas be weighted than those in densely populated areas), but I have lived in enough areas to know that what is good policy for cities is often terrible policy for the countryside. I agree with you that the Electoral College in its current format is outdated. I just disagree with you on that a strictly proportional vote is really better. I don't really understand the reasoning in this statement. Isn't one of the main ideas of democracy that all people have an equal vote, no matter who they are? Why should rural farmers have more votes than people in cities? If we are following this route, why not give more votes to smarter people? Or richer, as they have more at stake? This whole idea that rural people should have more votes seems to mostly be justifying that it has historically been like this in the US, and thus there must be a reason for it. To me, it seems fundamentally undemocratic to give people living in cities less votes just because rural people have historically been given overproportional representation and would be sad to lose that. The entire argument is dumb. The system is known to everyone beforehand. Discussions after the facts about "if we did it in X way then candidate Y would have won" are useless. I can assure you that thousands of voters did not bother to vote because they live in states where one of the parties is 100% gonna win. Whether he wins with 100 votes or 50000 votes is irrelevant, winner takes all. If you tell these people beforehand "oh every single vote will count now" obviously voter behavior will change. All of this certainly does not mean that it's a good system, but trying to fit current data in a different system is just silly.
Why is it dumb just because we're discussing it after the fact? Yes, it won't change anything, but that doesn't make the system any less broken.
|
On November 10 2016 21:26 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2016 21:24 Laurens wrote:On November 10 2016 21:19 Simberto wrote:On November 10 2016 20:58 Acrofales wrote:On November 10 2016 20:23 Excludos wrote:On November 10 2016 19:48 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 10 2016 18:51 Thax wrote:On November 10 2016 18:45 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I'm seeing a huge number of people on social media angry with Trump and "racist" white people that voted him in. What I'm not seeing so much of is democratic supporters giving the DNC a grill over their shocking treatment of Sanders.The primaries were rigged against Sanders, who was destroying Trump in all the polls.
How about instead of protesting against Trump protest against the corrupt DNC and try to get some real change in that organisation.Then you've got a chance of getting a good candidate instead of an establishment shill like Clinton and with a decent chance of Trump being impeached in his first term the outlook could be good.
Personally i still think too many people are uninformed and just get their news from mainstream outlets who are completely discredited to anyone who is awake to the game.
Sites like HuffPo are hyperbolic right now, channel that anger toward positive change in your own party instead of this negativity.
Clinton also destroyed Trump in the polls. Every Sanders-fanboy who has taken this election to vote Trump or even third party as some sort of big fuck you to the establishment has blood on their hands. Trump is going to destroy lives and it's as much their fault as it is of racist white people. Given that he won the elections fairly, I think it's really poor form to pre-emptively talk about him ruining lives. Maybe he'll be good. Maybe he will be awful. I strongly dislike him, but you gotta give him a chance to actually be president before talking about how bad he is at it. I would say the word "fairly" is up for debate here, considering he didn't win the majority vote (or at least seems like he won't based on the numbers right now). I haven't followed this thread long so I apologise if this has been discussed to death already, but the american "Democracy" is too screwed up. First off not all US citizens, even those born and raised in the US without any criminal history, is allowed to vote. Secondly, your vote might be completely pointless depending on what state you live in. If you're in a sure Democrat or Republic state, you might as well not vote because it's going to count for exactly nothing (I'm not saying not to vote. Always vote. At least that way there's a chance, even if it's tiny). Then there's the problem with the Electoral College being unfairly distributed, or the fact that it's existing at all. It's purpose was two folds: Logistical (which isn't relevant anymore), and to give "the little guys in the rural areas a bigger voice compared to those elitist people living in the big cities", the latter which is ridiculous. Even if you combine the biggest 100 cities in US, you're still not up to 20% of the whole population. The EC is actually working against it's purpose right now, as the presidential candidates are not only ignoring the largest cities, but also the smallest states for all of their rallies. So the entire purpose of it right now is to give hillbilly Joe in the least populated states the largest vote for no apparent reason (which is usually republican, given that all 4 presidents who won without winning the popular vote have been republican). That's not even touching on the way the whole system is built to support two parties backed by large corporations and donations in a way that would be counted as corruption in every other country. Fairly certain you're just spouting drivel here. Yes, if you just take the population of just the city municipalities, you're probably right (haven't done the math). But what you're then saying is that LA has under 4million inhabitants, whereas the LA metropolitan area, which is what you can reasonably count as "elitist people living in big cities", has 12.8million inhabitants (LA county + OC). This doesn't count Ventura and other surrounding metropolitan areas, which would add up to a further 10million inhabitants. The same goes for NYC: the city itself has an official population of 8million, but the NYC-Newark-JC area has 20million inhabitants. That means that taking those two areas together you are already over 10% of the population. All we need to do is add Chicago (10million), Dallas-Fort Worth (7million) and Houston (6.5million) to easily break 20% of the US population. Giving a voice to sparsely populated rural areas is a perfectly valid goal. A discussion can (and should) be had over how much their influence should be (how much more should voters in sparsely populated areas be weighted than those in densely populated areas), but I have lived in enough areas to know that what is good policy for cities is often terrible policy for the countryside. I agree with you that the Electoral College in its current format is outdated. I just disagree with you on that a strictly proportional vote is really better. I don't really understand the reasoning in this statement. Isn't one of the main ideas of democracy that all people have an equal vote, no matter who they are? Why should rural farmers have more votes than people in cities? If we are following this route, why not give more votes to smarter people? Or richer, as they have more at stake? This whole idea that rural people should have more votes seems to mostly be justifying that it has historically been like this in the US, and thus there must be a reason for it. To me, it seems fundamentally undemocratic to give people living in cities less votes just because rural people have historically been given overproportional representation and would be sad to lose that. The entire argument is dumb. The system is known to everyone beforehand. Discussions after the facts about "if we did it in X way then candidate Y would have won" are useless. I can assure you that thousands of voters did not bother to vote because they live in states where one of the parties is 100% gonna win. Whether he wins with 100 votes or 50000 votes is irrelevant, winner takes all. If you tell these people beforehand "oh every single vote will count now" obviously voter behavior will change. All of this certainly does not mean that it's a good system, but trying to fit current data in a different system is just silly. Why is it dumb just because we're discussing it after the fact? Yes, it won't change anything, but that doesn't make the system any less broken. Yes, the system is broken, but his point is that the very existence of the electoral system influences the result of the popular vote, so you can't extrapolate that without the electoral system Clinton would have still won the popular vote.
|
Putting somebody like Carson in charge of Education would result in the sort of social conservative social project that the vast majority of people reject and is an easy talking point that could be used to help bury this administration in 4 years. Being antI evolution and anti free college, regardless of if it makes sense, are the sorts of things that will get more voters out (especially the young).
Hopefully he just sticks him somewhere in medicine and stays away from education.
|
|
|
|