EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 591
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
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Introvert
United States4866 Posts
On November 01 2013 05:03 HunterX11 wrote: Questioning someone's legitimacy by implying he's not a real American because he's from an African country is racist, even when considered thoughtfully in context. If your belief that this sort of remark is acceptable is something you thought out as well, and not "kneejerk", then your opinion on this is racist, too, and there's no reason why anyone should take you seriously. What? I already explained this. At most it's questioning someone who had a Kenyan descent and was the son of a communist. If he was from Russia or from Sweden, he would say "send him back to Russia/Sweden!" Hell, he would say the same thing if Obama was from Cuba! I didn't say the remark was a good one, I'm saying it does NOT display racism. But I get that it's hard to see, considering just how much the left talks about it. In context, it's NOT racist. You have to MAKE it racist. He first said "send him back to Chicago!" Does that mean he's racist against people from Chicago? He didn't even say Africa! He said Kenya. Nice, that makes me racist, thus you should dismiss me. I guess we are done here. In fact, why did you reply at all? But you are right: Cruz=racist that deserves time and attention. Grayson= some poor guy (congressman) from Florida. Edit: On November 01 2013 05:08 JinDesu wrote: Why should he go back to Kenya if he wasn't born in Kenya? That seems weird. Maybe Cruz does think that? Maybe he wasn't being serious? You have to understand what he said based off of what he thinks. If he think Obama is a Kenyan, then the statement has SOME consistency. | ||
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heliusx
United States2306 Posts
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Introvert
United States4866 Posts
On November 01 2013 05:13 heliusx wrote: Oh, the old but look at that guy argument. Very intellectual war you're waging. I'm pointing out that this is being colored by perspective. Someone I don't like makes a comment- take it in the worst way you can, even if it makes no sense. Guy I agree with: Nah, he's ok. But go ahead, ignore everything else I said. Very intellectual. | ||
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
On November 01 2013 05:10 Introvert wrote: Edit: Maybe Cruz does think that? Maybe he wasn't being serious? You have to understand what he said based off of what he thinks. If he think Obama is a Kenyan, then the statement has SOME consistency. Then Cruz would be kinda stupid to think that - especially after the whole thing regarding Obama's birth certificate. Heck, the first time he visited Kenya he was 27 (at least according to wiki). | ||
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Introvert
United States4866 Posts
On November 01 2013 05:16 JinDesu wrote: Then Cruz would be kinda stupid to think that - especially after the whole thing regarding Obama's birth certificate. Heck, the first time he visited Kenya he was 27 (at least according to wiki). I didn't say he was right: I said he's not racist. Something people here continually confuse, for some reason. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On November 01 2013 03:24 Doublemint wrote: Yeah. But why now let him speak for himself  Having the audacity to compare Castro's policies to Obama's. Mindblowing. However, Republicans should run with this. It will turn off independents so much that some kind of catharsis should inevitably occur sooner or later. I watched that whole speech didnt hear what you describe. Very inspirational speech in fact about a guy who came here with nothing not even speaking English and started as a dishwasher and made something of himself. I dont even agree 100% with republican politics but liked that speech centering on freedom and self reliance. His comparisons to Castro are policies that take away financial freedom and self reliance similar to what Castro did. As far as religious nut I'd hope so since he's a pastor that kinda goes with job description. | ||
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Introvert
United States4866 Posts
On November 01 2013 05:18 tdt wrote: I watched that whole speech didnt hear what you describe. Very inspirational speech in fact about a guy who came here with nothing not even speaking English and started as a dishwasher and made something of himself. I dont even agree 100% with republican politics but liked that speech centering on freedom and self reliance. His comparisons to Castro are policies that take away financial freedom and self reliance similar to what Castro did. As far as religious nut I'd hope so since he's a pastor that kinda goes with job description. Whoops, I misread your post! But I'm glad you watched the whole thing! Much more that you liked it! We only focus on the negative around here... | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
This is a typical part of defending racists. You just try to take things out of their sociopolitical context and suddenly the n-word is no worse than "cracker." I am not exactly sure why people assume he's not a birther. He walks and talks like a birther. At the very least he's riling up the birthers and nativists, rather than condemning him. But of course this all really projection. You keep accusing us of seeing only the worst. But really, you're on the side of Cruz so you can't imagine that he really campaigns on such extreme rhetoric and racism. And pastors don't have to be whackjobs lol | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8645 Posts
On November 01 2013 05:18 tdt wrote: I watched that whole speech didnt hear what you describe. Very inspirational speech in fact about a guy who came here with nothing not even speaking English and started as a dishwasher and made something of himself. I dont even agree 100% with republican politics but liked that speech centering on freedom and self reliance. His comparisons to Castro are policies that take away financial freedom and self reliance similar to what Castro did. As far as religious nut I'd hope so since he's a pastor that kinda goes with job description. What exactly are you referring to? He did not explicitly compare the two(Obama and Castro), but at least hinted at what is to come under a "socialist" or "Obama" because the "same" happened in his country. I watched it too and don't get how you did not notice that? He said something along the lines like when he was young there was a civil war/revolution in his country and the promise was hope "and change" and he was very inspired etc so he joined the underground - but got ratted out. Then he escaped to the states and started out as dishwasher and got educated and wanted to go back but what he found at home was shocking and I cannot blame him for that - after all Castro was a brutal and absolutely awful dictator. But the image he draws with the health care being socialized in Cuba and now the US, or people of religion getting prosecuted there and now kind of religion is under attack in the US too... is beyond anything reasonable. | ||
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SongByungWewt
China593 Posts
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Introvert
United States4866 Posts
On November 01 2013 05:36 DoubleReed wrote: LOL at people thinking that "go back to Kenya" isn't racist. This is a typical part of defending racists. You just try to take things out of their sociopolitical context and suddenly the n-word is no worse than "cracker." I am not exactly sure why people assume he's not a birther. He walks and talks like a birther. At the very least he's riling up the birthers and nativists, rather than condemning him. But of course this all really projection. You keep accusing us of seeing only the worst. But really, you're on the side of Cruz so you can't imagine that he really campaigns on such extreme rhetoric and racism. You are really good at doing what you describe. Actually, you projected your own sociopolitical context viewpoint onto Cruz and entirely ignored him as a person, or him relative to the speech he gave. Instead, you assume that because he said that ONE sentence, he is damned to the pit of hell reserved for the racist. You ignored the whole part about Communism, or Cruz's background in Cuba, or the UN (doubt you heard that part), etc, and just focused on YOUR perspective as to what he said and what it means. I didn't say he's not a birther, I haven't the foggiest idea. Again, it's about what Cruz thinks, not what the truth is. No, I'm looking at context, you are looking at just that one sentence. Which one do you think is more likely to get what Cruz was trying to say? You ignored every other post I made and just repeat what was said at the very beginning. Do you actually read the already concluded conversation? You aren't a fan of anything more than very broad context, it appears, so I'm going to say it's 50/50. | ||
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Introvert
United States4866 Posts
On November 01 2013 05:43 SongByungWewt wrote: Christ, people actually discuss the individual members of congress? Talk about low brow. If you're going to talk about politics, it might as well be geopolitics. At least something of substance would be discussed then. Going over the minutiae of American mud slinging seems to me like quite a masochistic exercise. If you have followed this thread for any amount of time, you realize we actually focus not just on certain members, but even people who aren't part of the government at all! And that's because they have at least some relevance. Also, since the only thing going on right now in the news is Obamacare's failure, this thread needs to find other things to talk about. Besides, this is the US political thread, not the world political thread. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8645 Posts
On November 01 2013 05:48 Introvert wrote: If you have followed this thread for any amount of time, you realize we actually focus not just on certain members, but even people who aren't part of the government at all! And that's because they have at least some relevance. Also, since the only thing going on right now in the news Obamacare's failure, this thread needs to find other things to talk about. lol. as if this was not discussed here... you indeed seem still confused and still did not respond to my question after I "just left" and you "won" the argument. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On November 01 2013 05:41 Doublemint wrote: What exactly are you referring to? He did not explicitly compare the two(Obama and Castro), but at least hinted at what is to come under a "socialist" or "Obama" because the "same" happened in his country. I watched it too and don't get how you did not notice that? He said something along the lines like when he was young there was a civil war/revolution in his country and the promise was hope "and change" and he was very inspired etc. Then he came to the states and got educated and wanted to go back but what he found at home was shocking and I cannot blame him for that - after all Castro was a brutal and absolutely awful dictator. But the image he draws with the health care being socialized in Cuba and now the US, or people of religion getting prosecuted there and now kind of religion is under attack in the US too... is beyond anything reasonable. I didnt hear the go back to Kenya thing i mean. what time does he say it? Maybe wrong video was posted or I was distracted and didnt hear it. Even if he said it I question TED CRUZ relevance since guilt by association is a logical fallacy. Ted is no more responsible for what his dad says than Hillary for what her awful father said. Each person stands on what they say and do not what others say. I dont really have a problem with Castro or Obama. Whenever times are tougha nd great stratification of wealth exists men are put in place to correct that. More desperate more hardcore they are. It's just a matter of degree. To ignore matter of degree is as bad as slippery slope others take. (tea party) | ||
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Introvert
United States4866 Posts
On November 01 2013 05:51 Doublemint wrote: lol. as if this was not discussed here... you indeed seem still confused and still did not respond to my question after I "just left" and you "won" the argument. I left because A) your responses consisted of about 10 words, so nothing substantive was going on. B) I haven't checked the thread since I made that final reply, I was gone all day yesterday. I only do this when I have some spare time, I'm not going to waste it. Like your reply just now. Once again, attacking me, yet ignoring what I actually said. Thanks for proving the point. | ||
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Introvert
United States4866 Posts
On November 01 2013 05:53 tdt wrote: I didnt hear the go back to Kenya thing i mean. what time does he say it? Maybe wrong video was posted or I was distracted and didnt hear it. Even if he said it I question TED CRUZ relevance since guilt by association is a logical fallacy. Ted is no more responsible for what his dad says than Hillary for what her awful father said. Each person stands on what they say and do not what others say. This is the video in question. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8645 Posts
On November 01 2013 05:53 tdt wrote: I didnt hear the go back to Kenya thing i mean. what time does he say it? Maybe wrong video was posted or I was distracted and didnt hear it. Even if he said it I question TED CRUZ relevance since guilt by association is a logical fallacy. Ted is no more responsible for what his dad says than Hillary for what her awful father said. Each person stands on what they say and do not what others say. Oh so I understood you right after all and wrongfully responded to the video I posted ^^ No the kenyan thing is not in there I am afraid, though I just wanted to emphasize on Stealthblues point that Cruz's dad is indeed kinda whacky. And of course he is not guilt by association, I think what Ted Cruz is saying should be enough for people to call him out without his dad's contribution. Though his father apparently is on the campaign trail with, or at least for him as this video shows. So not saying anything about his dad's whacky remarks, on its own already tells us something I would say. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8645 Posts
On November 01 2013 05:54 Introvert wrote: I left because A) your responses consisted of about 10 words, so nothing substantive was going on. B) I haven't checked the thread since I made that final reply, I was gone all day yesterday. I only do this when I have some spare time, I'm not going to waste it. Like your reply just now. Once again, attacking me, yet ignoring what I actually said. Thanks for proving the point. I see. So it seems it was good you did not respond after all. My mistake then. | ||
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
Obama is not from Kenya. To tell him to "go back" there is obviously ignorant. Now, I'll stop a step before calling it racism, because it isn't quite that, at least explicitly. But it is a part of the narrative we've seen again and again that Obama is not "one of us" somehow. And that is troubling, and the leap people make to it being racist is not entirely without evidence. ------- Also, in response to something earlier in the thread about Pastors being necessarily "religious fanatics;" While Pastors ("Specialized Clergy") are certainly very deeply religious, they tend to be substantially more theologically and politically liberal than their parishioners. They tend to believe the Bible is a progressing narrative of people getting to know the will of God, and therefore that certain parts of the older part of the story are, in fact, outdated. Politically, they tend to be "bleeding hearts" who focus on causes where the weak seem oppressed by the strong, or generally peace-oriented causes. The Bible-thumping Leviticus-quoters tend to be poorly educated laypeople or pastors ordained in denominations that lack a real education requirement for their specialized clergy. For an example report on this, commissioned by the largest Presbyterian denomination in the US: http://www.pcusa.org/media/uploads/research/pdfs/presbyterian_panel_survey_fall_2011_religious_and_demographic_profile_of_presbyterians.pdf | ||
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