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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-01 17:07:34
November 01 2016 17:03 GMT
#117021
assuming your 2nd to last post was addressing the brooklyn issue, that one does not support any of your conclusions at all. it was a filter by age and last time voted, no obvious sign of manipulation for a candidate either way, except for a local election.

your point about machine vs paper needs elaboration. typically rural areas have paper counts and those went overwhelmingly for sanders. would explain the discrepancy, similar to other studies on e-ballot stuff.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
November 01 2016 17:14 GMT
#117022
Newsworthy (fast forward to 1:20)

cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
November 01 2016 17:17 GMT
#117023
On November 02 2016 01:41 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2016 01:38 oneofthem wrote:
On November 02 2016 01:36 xDaunt wrote:
On November 02 2016 01:33 oneofthem wrote:
On November 02 2016 01:32 xDaunt wrote:
On November 02 2016 01:26 oneofthem wrote:
On November 02 2016 01:17 xDaunt wrote:
On November 02 2016 01:00 farvacola wrote:
When Ailes and Murdoch got high off of what CNN was smoking during the mid 90s, I think it's fair to say that CNN was relatively less biased than it is today and was overall a more even keel production; Crossfire, though a horrible show concept looking back, certainly did its part in giving both liberals and conservatives their air time, and the reporting focused on real time events, limiting the scope of any potential partisanry in presentation. Similarly, many TV media consumers still got most of their news from daily evening programs on main cable networks, and though Dan Rather is quite the public liberal nowadays, I think it's hard to dispute that folks like him and Peter Jennings were moderate in their reading of the evening news.

However, once Fox News started seeing returns on its "Fair & Balanced" and "Real Journalism" slogans during the early to mid 2000s, other media organizations tried to counter Fox's growing market share through imitating what was very clearly reporting that agreed with a particular worldview. Getting down to who exactly fired the first shot here doesn't seem very useful, and yes, the above doesn't address the other media trends manifest in print and internet forms, but I think the whole "the media at large is biased towards liberals" spiel requires a lot of disclaimer before it carries much weight.

I have a different perspective. The rise of FNC's editorial board journalistic style aside, FNC (and other elements of conservative media -- ie talk radio) wasn't the first organization to jump into biased journalism so much as it was the first conservatively-biased new organization. As such, FNC polarized the debate, thereby showing and making obvious the liberal bias that was always there among the mainstream journalistic elements. The Drudgereport became a thing because it broke the Lewinsky story when the mainstream media sat on the story.

it's not really about fox news and whatnot. polarization is one thing, expanding how far the poles are going is another. ideologies that justify insurrection, see radical evil behind the social order, and so on develop independently of fox news. it's the expanding influence of internet and self created media by cranks.

the education of cranks is a blog/video by another crank. this is why terms like globalism and cuck are so prevalent. the narrative is that the monied elites(jews) selling out white america.

You don't have to go to the alt right to find complaints of liberal media bias. You'll find plenty among regular republicans.

i am saying media bias does not fully explain the rise of extreme politics. traditional media only feeds information, but the bias generating ideology formed outside of the traditional media network.

a guy who reads jewsdid911.blogspot and watches tv didn't get his worldview from the tv, even though the tv presentation may confirm his biases.

I'm not sure who is arguing that the mainstream media bias gives rise to extreme politics. It's certainly not my argument. I'm just pointing out that Krugman is a twat for failing to acknowledge mainstream media bias.

i was just addressing the centrality of traditional media bias in looking at the present situation for people like krugman. traditional media bias did not give rise to trump.

No, traditional media bias did not directly give rise to Trump. However, traditional media bias whitewashed the pressing issues that did give rise to Trump. And they continue to do so, which is a huge mistake, both for themselves and for the country as a whole. The cat's out of the bag.


I just want to jump in and say that, although traditional media keeps saying "This time its different" vis-a-vis Trump, they went 95% as hard at Romney (turning a factual statement about taxpayers into a scandal, making fun of him for warning that Russia is a rising threat) and about 80% as hard against McCain (the extra 15% was instead doled out onto Palin).

Thus, I think the mistake you are making one, about why "polarized" media is so predominant, is failing to recognize how polarized the mainstream itself is. Its not just partisan bias, its about merely discussing issues that certain people care about. Breitbart and infowars are certainly jokes, but before Andrew Breitbart died people acted like it was the alt-right crazy-town it is today, when it was actually more a subversive-libertarian site that happened to be the only site reporting on things like James O'Keefe, hollywood censorship, etc.

The Mainstream Media sources lose credibility when they say someone like O'Keefe is a hack and not credible, but then don't try to replicate his "studies" using their supposedly more stringent methods. Its like they are Harvard saying some new study reducing suicide rates with vitamin B shots is crap, but then they don't do their own study, just laugh and have a Merlot about it.
Freeeeeeedom
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12172 Posts
November 01 2016 17:20 GMT
#117024
On November 02 2016 02:03 oneofthem wrote:
assuming your 2nd to last post was addressing the brooklyn issue, that one does not support any of your conclusions at all. it was a filter by age and last time voted, no obvious sign of manipulation for a candidate either way, except for a local election.

your point about machine vs paper needs elaboration. typically rural areas have paper counts and those went overwhelmingly for sanders. would explain the discrepancy, similar to other studies on e-ballot stuff.


This one is from An electoral system in Crisis by Lulu Fries'dat. The elaboration is there.
No will to live, no wish to die
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-01 17:21:34
November 01 2016 17:21 GMT
#117025
that doesn't hurt mainstream media credibility; you don't need to replicate obvious trash to prove its obvious trash, you can point out that it's TRASH, and provide the reasons therefore for who have anosmia. and O'keefe is trash, quite rank at that.
MSM loses credibility because a bunch of scumbags decide to sell "those guys are lying!" to idiots to make money.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
November 01 2016 17:23 GMT
#117026
It's interesting how Fox News has the slogan "fair and balanced", and the right doesn't group Fox in with the terms "mainstream media" or "establishment".
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-01 17:35:50
November 01 2016 17:26 GMT
#117027
On November 02 2016 02:20 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2016 02:03 oneofthem wrote:
assuming your 2nd to last post was addressing the brooklyn issue, that one does not support any of your conclusions at all. it was a filter by age and last time voted, no obvious sign of manipulation for a candidate either way, except for a local election.

your point about machine vs paper needs elaboration. typically rural areas have paper counts and those went overwhelmingly for sanders. would explain the discrepancy, similar to other studies on e-ballot stuff.


This one is from An electoral system in Crisis by Lulu Fries'dat. The elaboration is there.

i'm not going to sit here and go through every 'internet paper.' you can distill the argument and post it here. the issue isn't new, already been explained by the exit polling firm too.
[image loading]
http://www.electionmathematics.org/em-exitpolls/EvaluationJan192005.pdf

pg 40

the other class of argument, the 'cumulative vote total by precinct size' is just reflection of systematic difference in level of sanders/clinton support in big vs small precincts, consistent with the election map.

in every state the sanders/clinton map looks like china circa 1948, countryside vs city. it's not fraud, just demographic polarization. you can add precincts by level of resentment vs establishment, will show the same kind of trend.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12172 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-01 17:36:08
November 01 2016 17:35 GMT
#117028
On November 02 2016 02:26 oneofthem wrote:
the other class of argument, the 'cumulative vote total by precinct size' is just reflection of systematic difference in level of sanders/clinton support in big vs small precincts, consistent with the election map.

in every state the sanders/clinton map looks like china circa 1948, countryside vs city. it's not fraud, just demographic polarization


Why doesn't that change in level of support manifest in the big vs small precincts where the ballots are hand counted?
No will to live, no wish to die
Hagen0
Profile Joined June 2013
Germany765 Posts
November 01 2016 17:36 GMT
#117029
No, they controlled for that kind of thing wherever possible (ie. wherever the data was available). The pattern is still there even if you control for race.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
November 01 2016 17:36 GMT
#117030
it's not about race.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
November 01 2016 17:38 GMT
#117031
On November 02 2016 02:35 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2016 02:26 oneofthem wrote:
the other class of argument, the 'cumulative vote total by precinct size' is just reflection of systematic difference in level of sanders/clinton support in big vs small precincts, consistent with the election map.

in every state the sanders/clinton map looks like china circa 1948, countryside vs city. it's not fraud, just demographic polarization


Why doesn't that change in level of support manifest in the big vs small precincts where the ballots are hand counted?

where is the data on that?
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6284 Posts
November 01 2016 17:40 GMT
#117032
On November 02 2016 02:23 Doodsmack wrote:
It's interesting how Fox News has the slogan "fair and balanced", and the right doesn't group Fox in with the terms "mainstream media" or "establishment".

Except the right does lump Fox in with establishment shills and MSM. Two sides of the same coin.
"If only Kircheis were here" - Everyone
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
November 01 2016 17:50 GMT
#117033
On November 02 2016 02:17 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2016 01:41 xDaunt wrote:
On November 02 2016 01:38 oneofthem wrote:
On November 02 2016 01:36 xDaunt wrote:
On November 02 2016 01:33 oneofthem wrote:
On November 02 2016 01:32 xDaunt wrote:
On November 02 2016 01:26 oneofthem wrote:
On November 02 2016 01:17 xDaunt wrote:
On November 02 2016 01:00 farvacola wrote:
When Ailes and Murdoch got high off of what CNN was smoking during the mid 90s, I think it's fair to say that CNN was relatively less biased than it is today and was overall a more even keel production; Crossfire, though a horrible show concept looking back, certainly did its part in giving both liberals and conservatives their air time, and the reporting focused on real time events, limiting the scope of any potential partisanry in presentation. Similarly, many TV media consumers still got most of their news from daily evening programs on main cable networks, and though Dan Rather is quite the public liberal nowadays, I think it's hard to dispute that folks like him and Peter Jennings were moderate in their reading of the evening news.

However, once Fox News started seeing returns on its "Fair & Balanced" and "Real Journalism" slogans during the early to mid 2000s, other media organizations tried to counter Fox's growing market share through imitating what was very clearly reporting that agreed with a particular worldview. Getting down to who exactly fired the first shot here doesn't seem very useful, and yes, the above doesn't address the other media trends manifest in print and internet forms, but I think the whole "the media at large is biased towards liberals" spiel requires a lot of disclaimer before it carries much weight.

I have a different perspective. The rise of FNC's editorial board journalistic style aside, FNC (and other elements of conservative media -- ie talk radio) wasn't the first organization to jump into biased journalism so much as it was the first conservatively-biased new organization. As such, FNC polarized the debate, thereby showing and making obvious the liberal bias that was always there among the mainstream journalistic elements. The Drudgereport became a thing because it broke the Lewinsky story when the mainstream media sat on the story.

it's not really about fox news and whatnot. polarization is one thing, expanding how far the poles are going is another. ideologies that justify insurrection, see radical evil behind the social order, and so on develop independently of fox news. it's the expanding influence of internet and self created media by cranks.

the education of cranks is a blog/video by another crank. this is why terms like globalism and cuck are so prevalent. the narrative is that the monied elites(jews) selling out white america.

You don't have to go to the alt right to find complaints of liberal media bias. You'll find plenty among regular republicans.

i am saying media bias does not fully explain the rise of extreme politics. traditional media only feeds information, but the bias generating ideology formed outside of the traditional media network.

a guy who reads jewsdid911.blogspot and watches tv didn't get his worldview from the tv, even though the tv presentation may confirm his biases.

I'm not sure who is arguing that the mainstream media bias gives rise to extreme politics. It's certainly not my argument. I'm just pointing out that Krugman is a twat for failing to acknowledge mainstream media bias.

i was just addressing the centrality of traditional media bias in looking at the present situation for people like krugman. traditional media bias did not give rise to trump.

No, traditional media bias did not directly give rise to Trump. However, traditional media bias whitewashed the pressing issues that did give rise to Trump. And they continue to do so, which is a huge mistake, both for themselves and for the country as a whole. The cat's out of the bag.


I just want to jump in and say that, although traditional media keeps saying "This time its different" vis-a-vis Trump, they went 95% as hard at Romney (turning a factual statement about taxpayers into a scandal, making fun of him for warning that Russia is a rising threat) and about 80% as hard against McCain (the extra 15% was instead doled out onto Palin).

Thus, I think the mistake you are making one, about why "polarized" media is so predominant, is failing to recognize how polarized the mainstream itself is. Its not just partisan bias, its about merely discussing issues that certain people care about. Breitbart and infowars are certainly jokes, but before Andrew Breitbart died people acted like it was the alt-right crazy-town it is today, when it was actually more a subversive-libertarian site that happened to be the only site reporting on things like James O'Keefe, hollywood censorship, etc.

The Mainstream Media sources lose credibility when they say someone like O'Keefe is a hack and not credible, but then don't try to replicate his "studies" using their supposedly more stringent methods. Its like they are Harvard saying some new study reducing suicide rates with vitamin B shots is crap, but then they don't do their own study, just laugh and have a Merlot about it.

Just imagine some journalists wanted to regain lost credibility. They could do deep, tough investigative pieces of both sides frequently (AP on Clinton foundation and Reuters on Clinton/FBI corruption are examples). Furthermore, keep the obvious editorials to the editorial page and embolden or hire editors committed to an evenhanded treatment in reporting. You won't change a culture tracing back to the big journo schools, but you'll start building back cred with the American public. Alternatively, they can preach ideology to the choir that already agrees with most of it and poll at Congressional levels in perpetuity. (Which would be sad, because some are great writers that do understand their beats, if only they could keep their personal politics to the twitter feed)
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
November 01 2016 17:52 GMT
#117034
On November 02 2016 02:40 zeo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2016 02:23 Doodsmack wrote:
It's interesting how Fox News has the slogan "fair and balanced", and the right doesn't group Fox in with the terms "mainstream media" or "establishment".

Except the right does lump Fox in with establishment shills and MSM. Two sides of the same coin.

It depends upon how far right you go. You have to go pretty far out there to find people who see no difference between Fox and the rest of the mainstream media. That said, I suspect that Fox may change significantly over the course of the next few years now that Ailes is gone. The Murdoch sons clearly have very different views over what they want the network to be, as is evidenced by their favoritism of Megyn Kelly. With O'Reilly's departure being possible next year when his contract is up and with Kelly's contract also expiring next year, there could be some significant changes at the network sooner rather than later.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-01 17:52:34
November 01 2016 17:52 GMT
#117035
Remember all the Republican outrage about this?

For 18 months, Republican strategists, political pundits, reporters and Americans who follow them have been pursuing Hillary Clinton’s personal email habits, and no evidence of a crime has been found. But now they at least have the skills and interest to focus on a much larger and deeper email conspiracy, one involving war, lies, a private server run by the Republican Party and contempt of Congress citations—all of it still unsolved and unpunished.

Clinton’s email habits look positively transparent when compared with the subpoena-dodging, email-hiding, private-server-using George W. Bush administration. Between 2003 and 2009, the Bush White House "lost" 22 million emails. This correspondence included millions of emails written during the darkest period in America’s recent history, when the Bush administration was ginning up support for what turned out to be a disastrous war in Iraq with false claims that the country possessed weapons of mass destruction (WMD), and, later, when it was firing U.S. attorneys for political reasons.

Like Clinton, the Bush White House used a private email server—its was owned by the Republican National Committee. And the Bush administration failed to store its emails, as required by law, and then refused to comply with a congressional subpoena seeking some of those emails.

...

in 2003, a whistleblower told the National Security Archive that the George W. Bush White House was no longer saving its emails. The Archive and another watchdog group, Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (which had represented outed CIA agent Valerie Plame in her case against the Bush administration), refiled their original lawsuit.

The plaintiffs soon discovered that Bush aides had simply shut down the Clinton automatic email archive, and they identified the start date of the lost emails as January 1, 2003. The White House claimed it had switched to a new server and in the process was unable to maintain an archive—a claim that many found dubious.


Newsweek
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
November 01 2016 17:57 GMT
#117036
Good thing he isn't running for a third term then I guess?
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-01 17:59:59
November 01 2016 17:59 GMT
#117037
We just need to make sure our concerns about email practices and cybersecurity are thorough and honest.
Adreme
Profile Joined June 2011
United States5574 Posts
November 01 2016 18:01 GMT
#117038
I will say the people who are running Trump's campaign are very smart to put him in Michigan. Wisconsin Colorado and Pennsylvania are not in play but he could out perform polls in Michigan. It's a long shot but he has a chance at least to flip it which he desperately needs considering a couple friends those 6 must wins (Nevada and NC) are not trending his way based on turnout and he needs a prize big enough to cancel that out if he loses one.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
November 01 2016 18:01 GMT
#117039
On November 02 2016 02:21 zlefin wrote:
that doesn't hurt mainstream media credibility; you don't need to replicate obvious trash to prove its obvious trash, you can point out that it's TRASH, and provide the reasons therefore for who have anosmia. and O'keefe is trash, quite rank at that.
MSM loses credibility because a bunch of scumbags decide to sell "those guys are lying!" to idiots to make money.

If it is such trash, there should be no fear in debunking it. Why does the NYT not sent a reporter to a polling station to vote for his/her boss, or even the local congressman? What's the downside? These things are easier to do and report on than a crop circle, and would drive 10x the traffic regardless of your "proving" him right or wrong.
Freeeeeeedom
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
November 01 2016 18:02 GMT
#117040
the thing about the hillary emails is basically how serious and committed she is about the work of government. reading through all of them should dispel all the conspiratorial notions but people just look for various signs of scandal.

it's kind of like a witch trial.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
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