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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
October 26 2016 14:12 GMT
#115421
On October 26 2016 11:40 Buckyman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2016 11:25 MyLovelyLurker wrote:
Is this an argument to elect Trump to avoid the tantrum? Is the tantrum even relevant if Trump loses?


This is an argument to maximize the standing of America in the world by maximizing, by proxy, the Clinton-Trump percentage gap ( nobody will care about how much Jill Stein scores). In turn, America's improved credibility and political capital will favour better geopolitical outcomes for you, and, hopefully, for the whole world. If God forbid there was 'only' a 52-49 outcome for Clinton on election night, trust me, nobody would cheer the US the next day, and the case for exceptionalism would be greatly weakened.


I'm worried about the domestic consequences. If Clinton wins by too large a margin, she will interpret it as a mandate for her (mostly irrelevant) policy position instead of as a rebuke to Trump's (lack of) position. At which point we'll have an agenda pushed on us that we didn't vote for, on the basis that we voted for it. If she goes this route, expect the Democrats to get clobbered in the congressional midterms.

A strong (>10% combined) showing by Gary Johnson and Jill Stein, on the other hand, is a signal to the parties that they've alienated their marginal voters and can lead to real policy changes attempting to recapture those voters.

so this is just really quality stuff. not only do you think hrc policies are worse than either stein or johnson, but you somehow think stein/johnson is a single pole of policy when they are on different planets.

your idea of good policy is the problem, and this extends to the electorate in general.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
October 26 2016 14:36 GMT
#115422
On October 26 2016 15:30 kwizach wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2016 03:32 zlefin wrote:
bio -> I couldn't fidn the article I was looking for.

Were you referring to this article, and to Clinton's "New College Compact" plan in particular (and how it got ignored by the press at the time)?

that does rather look like it. I'm not sure but it might well be. @bio you may want to look over that article.
thanks kwiz.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15686 Posts
October 26 2016 14:52 GMT
#115423
On October 26 2016 23:12 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2016 11:40 Buckyman wrote:
On October 26 2016 11:25 MyLovelyLurker wrote:
Is this an argument to elect Trump to avoid the tantrum? Is the tantrum even relevant if Trump loses?


This is an argument to maximize the standing of America in the world by maximizing, by proxy, the Clinton-Trump percentage gap ( nobody will care about how much Jill Stein scores). In turn, America's improved credibility and political capital will favour better geopolitical outcomes for you, and, hopefully, for the whole world. If God forbid there was 'only' a 52-49 outcome for Clinton on election night, trust me, nobody would cheer the US the next day, and the case for exceptionalism would be greatly weakened.


I'm worried about the domestic consequences. If Clinton wins by too large a margin, she will interpret it as a mandate for her (mostly irrelevant) policy position instead of as a rebuke to Trump's (lack of) position. At which point we'll have an agenda pushed on us that we didn't vote for, on the basis that we voted for it. If she goes this route, expect the Democrats to get clobbered in the congressional midterms.

A strong (>10% combined) showing by Gary Johnson and Jill Stein, on the other hand, is a signal to the parties that they've alienated their marginal voters and can lead to real policy changes attempting to recapture those voters.

so this is just really quality stuff. not only do you think hrc policies are worse than either stein or johnson, but you somehow think stein/johnson is a single pole of policy when they are on different planets.

your idea of good policy is the problem, and this extends to the electorate in general.


But Stein and Johnson are really, really different! That resonates with my childish "fuck the system" worldview.

Just look at this platform item by Jill Stein and tell me that doesn't just get you fired up:


Label GMOs, and put a moratorium on GMOs and pesticides until they are proven safe.


Imagine how cool it would be if 88% of corn in the US was suddenly removed from our market. Now THAT would be change I can believe in! Woo boy all this talk just gets me so fired up!
Trainrunnef
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States599 Posts
October 26 2016 15:15 GMT
#115424
On October 26 2016 23:36 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2016 15:30 kwizach wrote:
On October 26 2016 03:32 zlefin wrote:
bio -> I couldn't fidn the article I was looking for.

Were you referring to this article, and to Clinton's "New College Compact" plan in particular (and how it got ignored by the press at the time)?

that does rather look like it. I'm not sure but it might well be. @bio you may want to look over that article.
thanks kwiz.


Does a better job at explaining clinton's policy positions and proposal than clinton herself has ever done on a major stage.
I am, therefore I pee
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 26 2016 15:17 GMT
#115425
On October 26 2016 23:08 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
Vote Protectors, the anti-voter-fraud group hosted by Donald Trump ally and political dirty trickster Roger Stone, plans to send volunteers to monitor polling places in nine cities with high minority populations on Election Day, Stone said last week. Untrained poll-watchers have intimidated voters in previous elections. But Vote Protectors is going further than its predecessors.

Stone’s group created an official-looking ID badge for its volunteers to wear, and its volunteers planned to videotape voters and conduct fake “exit polls,” efforts that election experts say risks intimidating and confusing voters. Or at least that’s what the group was planning to do before The Huffington Post asked Stone about it on Tuesday. The controversial Trump ally, long known for his bare-knuckled political tactics, said that key proposals on his group’s websites were there without his knowledge, and assured HuffPost that he would operate within the confines of election law.

Stone had initially refused to explain just how Vote Protectors planned to accomplish its goals. So on Monday, The Huffington Post responded to the group’s request for additional volunteers to work as “Exit Pollers and Citizen Journalists.”

Once registered, HuffPost used the site’s “I.D. Badge Generator” to create this badge, which could pass for an official credential to people unfamiliar with polling signage and rules.

Vote Protectors’ volunteers “commit to go out in November and post their YouTube and Periscope streams to the [Vote Protectors] website, organized by state and district, as well as enter actual exit poll survey responses,” the group’s “members only” page reads.

To help volunteers broadcast their videos directly to the web, Vote Protectors offers detailed instructions on how to load livestream video software onto a smartphone and how to post videos to the Vote Protectors site.

By contrast, there appears to be very little information on how Vote Protectors are supposed to conduct “exit polls.” The video below, illustrating how to get started as a volunteer with the group, contains little information on how to conduct exit polls but plenty of information on how to stream videos of voters to the web.

Still, anyone registered as a volunteer with Vote Protectors can tally up votes at any time, for Trump or any other candidate, in what the site calls its “exit poll.” HuffPost accidentally logged two votes for Trump on Monday, visible below, despite having never entered an electoral precinct, and using a fake name.

Reached for comment on Tuesday, Stone told HuffPost he was “working with StopTheSteal.com to conduct exit polls for the purpose of comparing the results to the actual reported results on a precinct by precinct basis.” He noted that this effort “is independent of the Trump campaign,” adding, “I don’t know what their election day plans are.”

When HuffPost asked Stone specifically about the badges and the videotaping, however, he became defensive. “I know nothing about badges or videotaping,” he wrote, adding, “Where do you get this from?”

Even before Stone responded, the “I.D. Badge Generator” page had been removed from the Vote Protectors website. When HuffPost sent Stone images from the site showing the instructions for badges and livestreams, Stone did not respond.


Source

The part that bothers me most is how they are not even trying to hide it. They are publicly admitting they intent to intimidate voters, film them without their approval and challenge voters based zero information. And I doubt much will be done about it.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
October 26 2016 15:20 GMT
#115426
So why do so many people prefer to vote on Election Day? Besides all these voter suppression issues, I find that it's much harder to make an informed decision on the candidates that I never really heard of if I don't have a chance to look at their campaign materials, which really can't be done while standing in line or something.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
MyLovelyLurker
Profile Joined April 2007
France756 Posts
October 26 2016 15:22 GMT
#115427
On October 26 2016 23:12 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2016 11:40 Buckyman wrote:
On October 26 2016 11:25 MyLovelyLurker wrote:
Is this an argument to elect Trump to avoid the tantrum? Is the tantrum even relevant if Trump loses?


This is an argument to maximize the standing of America in the world by maximizing, by proxy, the Clinton-Trump percentage gap ( nobody will care about how much Jill Stein scores). In turn, America's improved credibility and political capital will favour better geopolitical outcomes for you, and, hopefully, for the whole world. If God forbid there was 'only' a 52-49 outcome for Clinton on election night, trust me, nobody would cheer the US the next day, and the case for exceptionalism would be greatly weakened.


I'm worried about the domestic consequences. If Clinton wins by too large a margin, she will interpret it as a mandate for her (mostly irrelevant) policy position instead of as a rebuke to Trump's (lack of) position. At which point we'll have an agenda pushed on us that we didn't vote for, on the basis that we voted for it. If she goes this route, expect the Democrats to get clobbered in the congressional midterms.

A strong (>10% combined) showing by Gary Johnson and Jill Stein, on the other hand, is a signal to the parties that they've alienated their marginal voters and can lead to real policy changes attempting to recapture those voters.

so this is just really quality stuff. not only do you think hrc policies are worse than either stein or johnson, but you somehow think stein/johnson is a single pole of policy when they are on different planets.

your idea of good policy is the problem, and this extends to the electorate in general.


This. Lack of perspective in US politics has become disturbing. It's like people can't realize that with a Trump presidency, there would be another Benghazi or email server controversy A DAY. We've already seen it in his campaign manager churn, he's that accident prone. 4 years *365 days = 1460 times. That's how much worse he is than a candidate with office experience.


"I just say, it doesn't matter win or lose, I just love Starcraft 2, I love this game, I love this stage, just play like in practice" - TIME/Oliveira
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21667 Posts
October 26 2016 15:22 GMT
#115428
On October 27 2016 00:15 Trainrunnef wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2016 23:36 zlefin wrote:
On October 26 2016 15:30 kwizach wrote:
On October 26 2016 03:32 zlefin wrote:
bio -> I couldn't fidn the article I was looking for.

Were you referring to this article, and to Clinton's "New College Compact" plan in particular (and how it got ignored by the press at the time)?

that does rather look like it. I'm not sure but it might well be. @bio you may want to look over that article.
thanks kwiz.


Does a better job at explaining clinton's policy positions and proposal than clinton herself has ever done on a major stage.

No one wants to hear a boring presentation about her plans while on stage. Its all about soundbites and crowd interaction.

It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 26 2016 15:23 GMT
#115429
On October 26 2016 21:49 Probe1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2016 21:13 biology]major wrote:
On October 26 2016 19:59 Probe1 wrote:
Trump was in town last night. Lets forget about democrats, independents, and Republicans that don't like Trump for a second.

There were 10 or 15 thousand fervent supporters gathered so quickly that they had to shut the gates 2 hours early and traffic on the interstate was at a standstill. Tallahassee is strongly Democratic but the surrounding counties are just as strongly held by Republicans. That means thousands drove from miles around and they were in a fervent celebratory mood.

Okay in perspective that's not that much. A city of 200,000 and over half a million in the surrounding counties. 15,000 isn't so massive now. But the level of excitement, the festive and jubilant support, was incredible.

It almost rivaled a FSU football game and nothing comes close to a southerner on a Saturday afternoon during the football season.


The dream situation: trump wins due to a massive turn out differential and a surprisingly large closet support.

Basically. Trump may have lost democrat, independent, and moderate republican votes (so the majority) but damn his fans are into him. It was more like a rock concert than a political rally.

I guess that's what you get when you preach to fringe folks that you'll give them everything.

If you lose democrat, independent, and moderate votes and STILL only trail by 4-5 points nationally, we're talking about the absolute slimmest of majorities.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21667 Posts
October 26 2016 15:27 GMT
#115430
On October 27 2016 00:23 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2016 21:49 Probe1 wrote:
On October 26 2016 21:13 biology]major wrote:
On October 26 2016 19:59 Probe1 wrote:
Trump was in town last night. Lets forget about democrats, independents, and Republicans that don't like Trump for a second.

There were 10 or 15 thousand fervent supporters gathered so quickly that they had to shut the gates 2 hours early and traffic on the interstate was at a standstill. Tallahassee is strongly Democratic but the surrounding counties are just as strongly held by Republicans. That means thousands drove from miles around and they were in a fervent celebratory mood.

Okay in perspective that's not that much. A city of 200,000 and over half a million in the surrounding counties. 15,000 isn't so massive now. But the level of excitement, the festive and jubilant support, was incredible.

It almost rivaled a FSU football game and nothing comes close to a southerner on a Saturday afternoon during the football season.


The dream situation: trump wins due to a massive turn out differential and a surprisingly large closet support.

Basically. Trump may have lost democrat, independent, and moderate republican votes (so the majority) but damn his fans are into him. It was more like a rock concert than a political rally.

I guess that's what you get when you preach to fringe folks that you'll give them everything.

If you lose democrat, independent, and moderate votes and STILL only trail by 4-5 points nationally, we're talking about the absolute slimmest of majorities.

As has been said many times. Having a R or D next to your name on the ballot will get you ~40% of the votes regardless of what you say or do (as Trump is proving).
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
October 26 2016 15:28 GMT
#115431
On October 27 2016 00:20 LegalLord wrote:
So why do so many people prefer to vote on Election Day? Besides all these voter suppression issues, I find that it's much harder to make an informed decision on the candidates that I never really heard of if I don't have a chance to look at their campaign materials, which really can't be done while standing in line or something.

it is hard to figure out who to vote for while standing in line, but would'nt the same apply if you went to an early polling location?
I try to look up what's on the ballot beforehand, so I can research anything I don't know enough about.

I vote on election day, partly out of habit; but also because, until fairly recently, you were only allowed to vote on election day unless you had a good reason not to (i.e. will be out of town, disability)

I think there should be a supply of material on the candidates/issues on site, so if I find something I don't know enough about, I can take a look on-site to make a decision. at the very least I'd like a resume and a 1page statement from each candidate. All too often in local elections for minor positions it's just a vote between people I know nothing about. It'd be raelly nice to have onsite info on them.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
MyLovelyLurker
Profile Joined April 2007
France756 Posts
October 26 2016 15:29 GMT
#115432
On October 26 2016 23:52 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2016 23:12 oneofthem wrote:
On October 26 2016 11:40 Buckyman wrote:
On October 26 2016 11:25 MyLovelyLurker wrote:
Is this an argument to elect Trump to avoid the tantrum? Is the tantrum even relevant if Trump loses?


This is an argument to maximize the standing of America in the world by maximizing, by proxy, the Clinton-Trump percentage gap ( nobody will care about how much Jill Stein scores). In turn, America's improved credibility and political capital will favour better geopolitical outcomes for you, and, hopefully, for the whole world. If God forbid there was 'only' a 52-49 outcome for Clinton on election night, trust me, nobody would cheer the US the next day, and the case for exceptionalism would be greatly weakened.


I'm worried about the domestic consequences. If Clinton wins by too large a margin, she will interpret it as a mandate for her (mostly irrelevant) policy position instead of as a rebuke to Trump's (lack of) position. At which point we'll have an agenda pushed on us that we didn't vote for, on the basis that we voted for it. If she goes this route, expect the Democrats to get clobbered in the congressional midterms.

A strong (>10% combined) showing by Gary Johnson and Jill Stein, on the other hand, is a signal to the parties that they've alienated their marginal voters and can lead to real policy changes attempting to recapture those voters.

so this is just really quality stuff. not only do you think hrc policies are worse than either stein or johnson, but you somehow think stein/johnson is a single pole of policy when they are on different planets.

your idea of good policy is the problem, and this extends to the electorate in general.


But Stein and Johnson are really, really different! That resonates with my childish "fuck the system" worldview.

Just look at this platform item by Jill Stein and tell me that doesn't just get you fired up:

Show nested quote +

Label GMOs, and put a moratorium on GMOs and pesticides until they are proven safe.


Imagine how cool it would be if 88% of corn in the US was suddenly removed from our market. Now THAT would be change I can believe in! Woo boy all this talk just gets me so fired up!


In fairness though, both main parties have opened a vacuum with how little they cover climate change, so they're vastly responsible for enabling Stein. There was not even a single environment-related question during Wallace's debate, and it's arguably the most important question ( in terms of the scale of its putative consequences, I'm not taking a stand on future scenarios & probabilities ) facing the human race. I would say the US is top 3 in the world in terms of ability to lead and curb world environmental policy, along with China and Germany, and the lack of leadership we are seeing in that regard is simply stunning.
"I just say, it doesn't matter win or lose, I just love Starcraft 2, I love this game, I love this stage, just play like in practice" - TIME/Oliveira
MyLovelyLurker
Profile Joined April 2007
France756 Posts
October 26 2016 15:30 GMT
#115433
On October 27 2016 00:22 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2016 00:15 Trainrunnef wrote:
On October 26 2016 23:36 zlefin wrote:
On October 26 2016 15:30 kwizach wrote:
On October 26 2016 03:32 zlefin wrote:
bio -> I couldn't fidn the article I was looking for.

Were you referring to this article, and to Clinton's "New College Compact" plan in particular (and how it got ignored by the press at the time)?

that does rather look like it. I'm not sure but it might well be. @bio you may want to look over that article.
thanks kwiz.


Does a better job at explaining clinton's policy positions and proposal than clinton herself has ever done on a major stage.

No one wants to hear a boring presentation about her plans while on stage. Its all about soundbites and crowd interaction.



This election is seeing the victory of the NUMBER of talking points ('Bill Clinton's back in the office ! Doesn't matter he's not running !' ) rather than their substance.
"I just say, it doesn't matter win or lose, I just love Starcraft 2, I love this game, I love this stage, just play like in practice" - TIME/Oliveira
Buckyman
Profile Joined May 2014
1364 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-26 15:33:21
October 26 2016 15:32 GMT
#115434
On October 26 2016 23:12 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2016 11:40 Buckyman wrote:
A strong (>10% combined) showing by Gary Johnson and Jill Stein, on the other hand, is a signal to the parties that they've alienated their marginal voters and can lead to real policy changes attempting to recapture those voters.

so this is just really quality stuff. not only do you think hrc policies are worse than either stein or johnson, but you somehow think stein/johnson is a single pole of policy when they are on different planets.


(1) I do understand some substantial differences between the two positions.
(2) They are both closer to me on some issues I consider very important (e.g. fourth and fifth amendment rights) than either Clinton or Trump.
(3) Except for their flagship issues, the details of their platforms won't matter next year.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
October 26 2016 15:33 GMT
#115435
On October 27 2016 00:29 MyLovelyLurker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2016 23:52 Mohdoo wrote:
On October 26 2016 23:12 oneofthem wrote:
On October 26 2016 11:40 Buckyman wrote:
On October 26 2016 11:25 MyLovelyLurker wrote:
Is this an argument to elect Trump to avoid the tantrum? Is the tantrum even relevant if Trump loses?


This is an argument to maximize the standing of America in the world by maximizing, by proxy, the Clinton-Trump percentage gap ( nobody will care about how much Jill Stein scores). In turn, America's improved credibility and political capital will favour better geopolitical outcomes for you, and, hopefully, for the whole world. If God forbid there was 'only' a 52-49 outcome for Clinton on election night, trust me, nobody would cheer the US the next day, and the case for exceptionalism would be greatly weakened.


I'm worried about the domestic consequences. If Clinton wins by too large a margin, she will interpret it as a mandate for her (mostly irrelevant) policy position instead of as a rebuke to Trump's (lack of) position. At which point we'll have an agenda pushed on us that we didn't vote for, on the basis that we voted for it. If she goes this route, expect the Democrats to get clobbered in the congressional midterms.

A strong (>10% combined) showing by Gary Johnson and Jill Stein, on the other hand, is a signal to the parties that they've alienated their marginal voters and can lead to real policy changes attempting to recapture those voters.

so this is just really quality stuff. not only do you think hrc policies are worse than either stein or johnson, but you somehow think stein/johnson is a single pole of policy when they are on different planets.

your idea of good policy is the problem, and this extends to the electorate in general.


But Stein and Johnson are really, really different! That resonates with my childish "fuck the system" worldview.

Just look at this platform item by Jill Stein and tell me that doesn't just get you fired up:


Label GMOs, and put a moratorium on GMOs and pesticides until they are proven safe.


Imagine how cool it would be if 88% of corn in the US was suddenly removed from our market. Now THAT would be change I can believe in! Woo boy all this talk just gets me so fired up!


In fairness though, both main parties have opened a vacuum with how little they cover climate change, so they're vastly responsible for enabling Stein. There was not even a single environment-related question during Wallace's debate, and it's arguably the most important question ( in terms of the scale of its putative consequences, I'm not taking a stand on future scenarios & probabilities ) facing the human race. I would say the US is top 3 in the world in terms of ability to lead and curb world environmental policy, along with China and Germany, and the lack of leadership we are seeing in that regard is simply stunning.

Dems cover it all the time, so not sure what you're talking about. agree that more leadership on the issue would be nice.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15686 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-26 15:34:18
October 26 2016 15:33 GMT
#115436
On October 27 2016 00:29 MyLovelyLurker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2016 23:52 Mohdoo wrote:
On October 26 2016 23:12 oneofthem wrote:
On October 26 2016 11:40 Buckyman wrote:
On October 26 2016 11:25 MyLovelyLurker wrote:
Is this an argument to elect Trump to avoid the tantrum? Is the tantrum even relevant if Trump loses?


This is an argument to maximize the standing of America in the world by maximizing, by proxy, the Clinton-Trump percentage gap ( nobody will care about how much Jill Stein scores). In turn, America's improved credibility and political capital will favour better geopolitical outcomes for you, and, hopefully, for the whole world. If God forbid there was 'only' a 52-49 outcome for Clinton on election night, trust me, nobody would cheer the US the next day, and the case for exceptionalism would be greatly weakened.


I'm worried about the domestic consequences. If Clinton wins by too large a margin, she will interpret it as a mandate for her (mostly irrelevant) policy position instead of as a rebuke to Trump's (lack of) position. At which point we'll have an agenda pushed on us that we didn't vote for, on the basis that we voted for it. If she goes this route, expect the Democrats to get clobbered in the congressional midterms.

A strong (>10% combined) showing by Gary Johnson and Jill Stein, on the other hand, is a signal to the parties that they've alienated their marginal voters and can lead to real policy changes attempting to recapture those voters.

so this is just really quality stuff. not only do you think hrc policies are worse than either stein or johnson, but you somehow think stein/johnson is a single pole of policy when they are on different planets.

your idea of good policy is the problem, and this extends to the electorate in general.


But Stein and Johnson are really, really different! That resonates with my childish "fuck the system" worldview.

Just look at this platform item by Jill Stein and tell me that doesn't just get you fired up:


Label GMOs, and put a moratorium on GMOs and pesticides until they are proven safe.


Imagine how cool it would be if 88% of corn in the US was suddenly removed from our market. Now THAT would be change I can believe in! Woo boy all this talk just gets me so fired up!


In fairness though, both main parties have opened a vacuum with how little they cover climate change, so they're vastly responsible for enabling Stein. There was not even a single environment-related question during Wallace's debate, and it's arguably the most important question ( in terms of the scale of its putative consequences, I'm not taking a stand on future scenarios & probabilities ) facing the human race. I would say the US is top 3 in the world in terms of ability to lead and curb world environmental policy, along with China and Germany, and the lack of leadership we are seeing in that regard is simply stunning.


Clinton's section on climate change:


Climate change is an urgent threat and a defining challenge of our time. It threatens our economy, our national security, and our children’s health and futures. We can tackle it by making America the world’s clean energy superpower and creating millions of good-paying jobs, taking bold steps to slash carbon pollution at home and around the world, and ensuring no Americans are left out or left behind as we rapidly build a clean energy economy.

On day one, Hillary Clinton will set bold, national goals that will be achieved within 10 years of taking office:

Generate enough renewable energy to power every home in America, with half a billion solar panels installed by the end of Hillary’s first term.

Cut energy waste in American homes, schools, hospitals and offices by a third and make American manufacturing the cleanest and most efficient in the world.
Reduce American oil consumption by a third through cleaner fuels and more efficient cars, boilers, ships, and trucks.

Hillary’s plan will deliver on the pledge President Obama made at the Paris climate conference—without relying on climate deniers in Congress to pass new legislation. She will reduce greenhouse gas emissions by up to 30 percent in 2025 relative to 2005 levels and put the country on a path to cut emissions more than 80 percent by 2050.

As president, Hillary will:

Defend, implement, and extend smart pollution and efficiency standards, including the Clean Power Plan and standards for cars, trucks, and appliances that are already helping clean our air, save families money, and fight climate change.

Launch a $60 billion Clean Energy Challenge to partner with states, cities, and rural communities to cut carbon pollution and expand clean energy, including for low-income families. Read the fact sheet here.
Invest in clean energy infrastructure, innovation, manufacturing and workforce development to make the U.S. economy more competitive and create good-paying jobs and careers. Read the fact sheet here.

Ensure safe and responsible energy production. As we transition to a clean energy economy, we must ensure that the fossil fuel production taking place today is safe and responsible and that areas too sensitive for energy production are taken off the table. Read the fact sheet here.

Reform leasing and expand clean energy production on public lands and waters tenfold within a decade.

Cut the billions of wasteful tax subsidies oil and gas companies have enjoyed for too long and invest in clean energy.

Cut methane emissions across the economy and put in place strong standards for reducing leaks from both new and existing sources.

Revitalize coal communities by supporting locally driven priorities and make them an engine of U.S. economic growth in the 21st century, as they have been for generations. Read the fact sheet here.
Make environmental justice and climate justice central priorities by setting bold national goals to eliminate lead poisoning within five years, clean up the more than 450,000 toxic brownfield sites across the country, expand solar and energy efficiency solutions in low-income communities, and create an Environmental and Climate Justice Task Force. Read the fact sheet here.

Promote conservation and collaborative stewardship. Hillary will keep public lands public, strengthen protections for our natural and cultural resources, increase access to parks and public lands for all Americans, as well as harness the immense economic potential they offer through expanded renewable energy production, a high quality of life, and a thriving outdoor economy. Read the fact sheet here.


Source: https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/climate/
Buckyman
Profile Joined May 2014
1364 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-26 15:36:43
October 26 2016 15:36 GMT
#115437
within 10 years of taking office


In my experience, this means "I'll take credit for this if it works and blame the next president if it doesn't"
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15686 Posts
October 26 2016 15:38 GMT
#115438
On October 27 2016 00:36 Buckyman wrote:
Show nested quote +
within 10 years of taking office


In my experience, this means "I'll take credit for this if it works and blame the next president if it doesn't"


Yeah, shame on her for giving realistic timelines instead of the bullshit 3rd parties like to spew. Clinton, as an actual politician, is under pressure to say things that make sense and have a shred of truth. A 3rd party candidate would list their agenda as doable in one term.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42654 Posts
October 26 2016 15:40 GMT
#115439
On October 27 2016 00:38 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2016 00:36 Buckyman wrote:
within 10 years of taking office


In my experience, this means "I'll take credit for this if it works and blame the next president if it doesn't"


Yeah, shame on her for giving realistic timelines instead of the bullshit 3rd parties like to spew. Clinton, as an actual politician, is under pressure to say things that make sense and have a shred of truth. A 3rd partyRepublican candidate would list their agenda as doable in one termwithin 30 days.

ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
MyLovelyLurker
Profile Joined April 2007
France756 Posts
October 26 2016 15:41 GMT
#115440
On October 27 2016 00:33 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2016 00:29 MyLovelyLurker wrote:
On October 26 2016 23:52 Mohdoo wrote:
On October 26 2016 23:12 oneofthem wrote:
On October 26 2016 11:40 Buckyman wrote:
On October 26 2016 11:25 MyLovelyLurker wrote:
Is this an argument to elect Trump to avoid the tantrum? Is the tantrum even relevant if Trump loses?


This is an argument to maximize the standing of America in the world by maximizing, by proxy, the Clinton-Trump percentage gap ( nobody will care about how much Jill Stein scores). In turn, America's improved credibility and political capital will favour better geopolitical outcomes for you, and, hopefully, for the whole world. If God forbid there was 'only' a 52-49 outcome for Clinton on election night, trust me, nobody would cheer the US the next day, and the case for exceptionalism would be greatly weakened.


I'm worried about the domestic consequences. If Clinton wins by too large a margin, she will interpret it as a mandate for her (mostly irrelevant) policy position instead of as a rebuke to Trump's (lack of) position. At which point we'll have an agenda pushed on us that we didn't vote for, on the basis that we voted for it. If she goes this route, expect the Democrats to get clobbered in the congressional midterms.

A strong (>10% combined) showing by Gary Johnson and Jill Stein, on the other hand, is a signal to the parties that they've alienated their marginal voters and can lead to real policy changes attempting to recapture those voters.

so this is just really quality stuff. not only do you think hrc policies are worse than either stein or johnson, but you somehow think stein/johnson is a single pole of policy when they are on different planets.

your idea of good policy is the problem, and this extends to the electorate in general.


But Stein and Johnson are really, really different! That resonates with my childish "fuck the system" worldview.

Just look at this platform item by Jill Stein and tell me that doesn't just get you fired up:


Label GMOs, and put a moratorium on GMOs and pesticides until they are proven safe.


Imagine how cool it would be if 88% of corn in the US was suddenly removed from our market. Now THAT would be change I can believe in! Woo boy all this talk just gets me so fired up!


In fairness though, both main parties have opened a vacuum with how little they cover climate change, so they're vastly responsible for enabling Stein. There was not even a single environment-related question during Wallace's debate, and it's arguably the most important question ( in terms of the scale of its putative consequences, I'm not taking a stand on future scenarios & probabilities ) facing the human race. I would say the US is top 3 in the world in terms of ability to lead and curb world environmental policy, along with China and Germany, and the lack of leadership we are seeing in that regard is simply stunning.

Dems cover it all the time, so not sure what you're talking about. agree that more leadership on the issue would be nice.


In a very poor fashion - didn't you see Obama on Fallon summarizing one of his talking points with 'climate change is real' ? The Breitbart-ian view that the IPCC is rigged and climate change is a hoax is mainstream in the US, it's called the Republican party. Nationwide you are still debating existence rather than the best way to deal with the issue, and are the only large industrialized country to do that - a US idiosyncracy. It's not like there is a high quality 2-way debate on how to solve it.
"I just say, it doesn't matter win or lose, I just love Starcraft 2, I love this game, I love this stage, just play like in practice" - TIME/Oliveira
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