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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
October 21 2016 18:42 GMT
#114621
On October 22 2016 03:40 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
Why not put a low yield nuclear weapon in the interceptor? Sure, the atmosphere will be wrecked, but it beats a warhead landing in a city.

The Russian S-500 program intends to do that. To put it this way, I don't think that will scale very well.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44132 Posts
October 21 2016 18:42 GMT
#114622
Russia and China are both very committed to non proliferation, if they had enough influence in NK to stop NK getting nukes then NK wouldn't have nukes. A nukeless NK could be shielded from American aggression under China's wing, NK with a nuke is an indefensible proposition for China.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
October 21 2016 18:48 GMT
#114623
How close were we to the massive array of US nukes being under the control of a megalomaniac? NK's position of wanting nuclear weapons to be able to defend themselves against the American threat is suddenly a lot more credible.
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44132 Posts
October 21 2016 18:50 GMT
#114624
On October 22 2016 03:48 a_flayer wrote:
How close were we to the massive array of US nukes being under the control of a megalomaniac? NK's position of wanting nuclear weapons to be able to defend themselves against the American threat is suddenly a lot more credible.

It's not even slightly credible. The only reason anyone wants to attack NK is because they're working on nuclear missile tech.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
October 21 2016 18:54 GMT
#114625
Just got back from early voting (thanks, North Carolina!) and everyone who can vote should provided it's possible. The place had been open 2 hours and was up to 1028 votes (though that may have included people from yesterday).

It made me think of a thought experiment:

If I cast my ballot today, and I die November 7th, should my vote be counted?
If I cast my ballot today, and I die November 8th, should my vote be counted?
If I cast my ballot on November 8th and die that same day, should my vote be counted?
If I cast a ballot at any point and die November 9th, should my vote be counted?

Just food for thought. I'm not sure I know what my preferred answer is to all four questions.
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
October 21 2016 18:55 GMT
#114626
On October 22 2016 03:50 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2016 03:48 a_flayer wrote:
How close were we to the massive array of US nukes being under the control of a megalomaniac? NK's position of wanting nuclear weapons to be able to defend themselves against the American threat is suddenly a lot more credible.

It's not even slightly credible. The only reason anyone wants to attack NK is because they're working on nuclear missile tech.


I'd say that's a good point, but somehow I get the idea that the US was funding groups to undermine the NK government long before they started their nuclear program.
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24055 Posts
October 21 2016 18:57 GMT
#114627
All this WW3 talk and we didn't mention we're going to attack Russia after accusing them of trying to manipulate our election (pretending we don't do that shit all the time in other countries).

Which, depending on the interpretation of the severity of the attack, could either be us responding to an act of war from Russia or making our own.

The US intelligence community coming out and saying it was Russia without being able to provide concrete evidence only further inflames tensions.

Like I've said before, anyone living near a military base should notice a significant ramping up of exercises. We're heading into another large scale conflict soon, or at least our military is preparing for one.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44132 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-21 19:04:30
October 21 2016 18:58 GMT
#114628
On October 22 2016 03:55 a_flayer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2016 03:50 KwarK wrote:
On October 22 2016 03:48 a_flayer wrote:
How close were we to the massive array of US nukes being under the control of a megalomaniac? NK's position of wanting nuclear weapons to be able to defend themselves against the American threat is suddenly a lot more credible.

It's not even slightly credible. The only reason anyone wants to attack NK is because they're working on nuclear missile tech.


I'd say that's a good point, but somehow I get the idea that the US was funding groups to undermine the NK government long before they started their nuclear program.

NK has always had a strong deterrent. There are major SK population centres within range of their artillery. They don't need a nuclear deterrent to ensure a free hand to do what they wish internally. They also have Chinese backing in the UN with the veto that comes with it. What exactly do you think the US was doing to undermine them? Radio broadcasts telling them about the world outside or whatever? The very existence of SK undermines the NK government which claims to be the only true government of the Korean people. Be specific.

Defensively NK's position has gotten worse, not better. They still have a strong deterrent but they have burned through all their diplomatic good will and gotten even their closest friends to join in sanctions on them. Offensively they have gained a new weapon and are working on making it more dangerous each day.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States6258 Posts
October 21 2016 18:58 GMT
#114629
On October 22 2016 03:55 a_flayer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2016 03:50 KwarK wrote:
On October 22 2016 03:48 a_flayer wrote:
How close were we to the massive array of US nukes being under the control of a megalomaniac? NK's position of wanting nuclear weapons to be able to defend themselves against the American threat is suddenly a lot more credible.

It's not even slightly credible. The only reason anyone wants to attack NK is because they're working on nuclear missile tech.


I'd say that's a good point, but somehow I get the idea that the US was funding groups to undermine the NK government long before they started their nuclear program.

Undermine in what way?
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44132 Posts
October 21 2016 19:03 GMT
#114630
On October 22 2016 03:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
All this WW3 talk and we didn't mention we're going to attack Russia after accusing them of trying to manipulate our election (pretending we don't do that shit all the time in other countries).

Which, depending on the interpretation of the severity of the attack, could either be us responding to an act of war from Russia or making our own.

The US intelligence community coming out and saying it was Russia without being able to provide concrete evidence only further inflames tensions.

Like I've said before, anyone living near a military base should notice a significant ramping up of exercises. We're heading into another large scale conflict soon, or at least our military is preparing for one.

The military is always preparing for a conflict. You might as well point out that ambulance crews are preparing for people to get hurt. It's literally their job.

As for cyber attacks, so far the rule of thumb with those has been the line between spying and cyberterrorism. If you send a guy to Russia to break into their files and look at some of their military plans, that's not an act of war, it's rude but it's not an act of war. If you send the same guy in to bomb the building with the plans in it, that's war. If you hack into their files, it's rude. If you hack into their electricity grid to overload a bunch of factories in strategic locations, that's war.

This is the same game we've always played and always denied doing. Hell, I would be in no way surprised if there had been frank discussions about where the line was drawn before any of this started, just to make sure everyone was on the same page and nobody accidentally crossed it.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9217 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-21 19:08:06
October 21 2016 19:05 GMT
#114631


Uhm, does no one next to him dare tell him?

On October 22 2016 03:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
Like I've said before, anyone living near a military base should notice a significant ramping up of exercises. We're heading into another large scale conflict soon, or at least our military is preparing for one.

I do, and no, exercises no more common now than 10 years ago.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22440 Posts
October 21 2016 19:07 GMT
#114632
On October 22 2016 04:05 Dan HH wrote:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/789520268972601344

Uhm, does no one next to him dare tell him?

Considering the rumors about his reaction to Pence do better then him in the debate...
yes I think no one dares to tell him hes wrong.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
October 21 2016 19:08 GMT
#114633
On October 22 2016 04:05 Dan HH wrote:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/789520268972601344

Uhm, does no one next to him dare tell him?

I have to admit, the first thing I checked was whether or not it was a parody account.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
October 21 2016 19:11 GMT
#114634
On October 22 2016 03:58 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2016 03:55 a_flayer wrote:
On October 22 2016 03:50 KwarK wrote:
On October 22 2016 03:48 a_flayer wrote:
How close were we to the massive array of US nukes being under the control of a megalomaniac? NK's position of wanting nuclear weapons to be able to defend themselves against the American threat is suddenly a lot more credible.

It's not even slightly credible. The only reason anyone wants to attack NK is because they're working on nuclear missile tech.


I'd say that's a good point, but somehow I get the idea that the US was funding groups to undermine the NK government long before they started their nuclear program.

Undermine in what way?


Covert actions, funding or arming the opposition. Hell, they even consider the alliance/collaboration with South Korea a direct attack on their interests. I'm not saying that their behaviour is very sensible, its just their view. And, personally, even I felt ill at ease when Trump started gaining momentum and I listened in to what was being said at the RNC, so yeah, I'd say that gives them at least some credit towards to being worried. Whether that's 1 out of 100 or 1 out of 1000 before being completely justified that's up to you.
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States46138 Posts
October 21 2016 19:12 GMT
#114635
Holy shit. The feels x.x

Hillary's/ Khan's ad... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/10/21/this-khizr-khan-ad-for-hillary-clinton-is-incredibly-powerful/?tid=ss_tw
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44132 Posts
October 21 2016 19:20 GMT
#114636
On October 22 2016 04:11 a_flayer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2016 03:58 oBlade wrote:
On October 22 2016 03:55 a_flayer wrote:
On October 22 2016 03:50 KwarK wrote:
On October 22 2016 03:48 a_flayer wrote:
How close were we to the massive array of US nukes being under the control of a megalomaniac? NK's position of wanting nuclear weapons to be able to defend themselves against the American threat is suddenly a lot more credible.

It's not even slightly credible. The only reason anyone wants to attack NK is because they're working on nuclear missile tech.


I'd say that's a good point, but somehow I get the idea that the US was funding groups to undermine the NK government long before they started their nuclear program.

Undermine in what way?


Covert actions, funding or arming the opposition. Hell, they even consider the alliance/collaboration with South Korea a direct attack on their interests. I'm not saying that their behaviour is very sensible, its just their view. And, personally, even I felt ill at ease when Trump started gaining momentum and I listened in to what was being said at the RNC, so yeah, I'd say that gives them at least some credit towards to being worried. Whether that's 1 out of 100 or 1 out of 1000 before being completely justified that's up to you.

I don't think you know as much about NK as you think you do. It's not like the Ukraine where the US government discreetly funds a political party that opposes Russia. It's a single party police state. There isn't internal opposition and every state that exists outside of the borders of NK represents external opposition. The existence of people outside of the borders of NK undermines the NK government. Exchanging currency for goods, or simply reading the internet and exchanging ideas on teamliquid is undermining the NK government.

The US did not create a need for NK to add a nuclear deterrent to their already existing deterrents. The border was stable for 40+ years before they decided to get a nuke. The cities of South Korea already represent a hostage for NK to threaten if they need to.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States6258 Posts
October 21 2016 19:22 GMT
#114637
On October 22 2016 04:11 a_flayer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2016 03:58 oBlade wrote:
On October 22 2016 03:55 a_flayer wrote:
On October 22 2016 03:50 KwarK wrote:
On October 22 2016 03:48 a_flayer wrote:
How close were we to the massive array of US nukes being under the control of a megalomaniac? NK's position of wanting nuclear weapons to be able to defend themselves against the American threat is suddenly a lot more credible.

It's not even slightly credible. The only reason anyone wants to attack NK is because they're working on nuclear missile tech.


I'd say that's a good point, but somehow I get the idea that the US was funding groups to undermine the NK government long before they started their nuclear program.

Undermine in what way?


Covert actions, funding or arming the opposition. Hell, they even consider the alliance/collaboration with South Korea a direct attack on their interests. I'm not saying that their behaviour is very sensible, its just their view. And, personally, even I felt ill at ease when Trump started gaining momentum and I listened in to what was being said at the RNC, so yeah, I'd say that gives them at least some credit towards to being worried. Whether that's 1 out of 100 or 1 out of 1000 before being completely justified that's up to you.

You lack a basic background in what North Korea is. I appreciate the need to criticize a haphazard US foreign policy that constantly gives money and weapons to random and opposing people, but that happens in the Middle East, not in Korea. The country is completely cut off. There is no funding, there is no arming, there isn't any "opposition." The mechanisms just do not exist. The only thing the international community does is arm the government with food relief that they then ration to the people and say was a gift of respect for the Dear Leader.

You went from their pursuit of nuclear weapons being credible to it just being their perspective. Well, the Kim dynasty is nuts. Their view could be that Hello Kitty is a Japanese plot that requires a military response.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24055 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-21 19:35:11
October 21 2016 19:25 GMT
#114638
On October 22 2016 04:03 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2016 03:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
All this WW3 talk and we didn't mention we're going to attack Russia after accusing them of trying to manipulate our election (pretending we don't do that shit all the time in other countries).

Which, depending on the interpretation of the severity of the attack, could either be us responding to an act of war from Russia or making our own.

The US intelligence community coming out and saying it was Russia without being able to provide concrete evidence only further inflames tensions.

Like I've said before, anyone living near a military base should notice a significant ramping up of exercises. We're heading into another large scale conflict soon, or at least our military is preparing for one.

The military is always preparing for a conflict. You might as well point out that ambulance crews are preparing for people to get hurt. It's literally their job.

As for cyber attacks, so far the rule of thumb with those has been the line between spying and cyberterrorism. If you send a guy to Russia to break into their files and look at some of their military plans, that's not an act of war, it's rude but it's not an act of war. If you send the same guy in to bomb the building with the plans in it, that's war. If you hack into their files, it's rude. If you hack into their electricity grid to overload a bunch of factories in strategic locations, that's war.

This is the same game we've always played and always denied doing. Hell, I would be in no way surprised if there had been frank discussions about where the line was drawn before any of this started, just to make sure everyone was on the same page and nobody accidentally crossed it.


We don't know if Russia had anything to do with it, but losing netflix, twitter, and Amazon might cause some loss of life

SAN FRANCISCO — At least two successive waves of online attacks blocked multiple major websites Friday, at times making it impossible for many users on the East Coast to access Twitter, Spotify, Netflix, Amazon, Tumblr and Reddit.

The first attacks appear to have begun around 7:10 am Friday, then resolved towards 9:30 am, but then a fresh wave began.

The cause was a large-scale distributed denial of service attack (DDoS) against Internet performance company Dyn that blocked user access to many popular sites.

Dyn reported the sites going down at around 11:10 a.m. UTC, or roughly 7:10 a.m. ET, posting on its website that it "began monitoring and mitigating a DDoS attack against our Dyn Managed DNS infrastructure."

In an update posted at 8:45 a.m. ET, the company confirmed the attack, noting that "this attack is mainly impacting US East and is impacting Managed DNS customers in this region. Our Engineers are continuing to work on mitigating this issue."

Others worried the attack could be from a nation-state rather than simply an individual seeking to wreak havoc.

“This is not a script kiddie,” said Markus Jakobsson, chief scientist at Agari, a computer security firm based in San Mateo, Calif. By that he meant unskilled hackers who use others' programs, or scripts, to hack into systems because they lack the expertise to write their own software.

“This not just an instant job, this is something that was probably worked on for weeks if not for months by really competent people,” he said.



Source

Twitter's DNS is currently down for me as well, though based on that reporting doesn't seem like it should be impacting me, particularly still at this point.

EDIT: Well I guess I have my explanation

Update 12:28 PM EST: Dyn says it is investigating yet another attack, causing the same massive outages experienced this morning. Based on emails from Gizmodo readers, this new wave of attacks seems to be affecting the West Coast of the United States and Europe. It’s so far unclear how the two attacks are related, but the outages are very similar.


Source
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-21 19:31:32
October 21 2016 19:28 GMT
#114639
On October 22 2016 04:20 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2016 04:11 a_flayer wrote:
On October 22 2016 03:58 oBlade wrote:
On October 22 2016 03:55 a_flayer wrote:
On October 22 2016 03:50 KwarK wrote:
On October 22 2016 03:48 a_flayer wrote:
How close were we to the massive array of US nukes being under the control of a megalomaniac? NK's position of wanting nuclear weapons to be able to defend themselves against the American threat is suddenly a lot more credible.

It's not even slightly credible. The only reason anyone wants to attack NK is because they're working on nuclear missile tech.


I'd say that's a good point, but somehow I get the idea that the US was funding groups to undermine the NK government long before they started their nuclear program.

Undermine in what way?


Covert actions, funding or arming the opposition. Hell, they even consider the alliance/collaboration with South Korea a direct attack on their interests. I'm not saying that their behaviour is very sensible, its just their view. And, personally, even I felt ill at ease when Trump started gaining momentum and I listened in to what was being said at the RNC, so yeah, I'd say that gives them at least some credit towards to being worried. Whether that's 1 out of 100 or 1 out of 1000 before being completely justified that's up to you.

I don't think you know as much about NK as you think you do. It's not like the Ukraine where the US government discreetly funds a political party that opposes Russia. It's a single party police state. There isn't internal opposition and every state that exists outside of the borders of NK represents external opposition. The existence of people outside of the borders of NK undermines the NK government. Exchanging currency for goods, or simply reading the internet and exchanging ideas on teamliquid is undermining the NK government.

The US did not create a need for NK to add a nuclear deterrent to their already existing deterrents. The border was stable for 40+ years before they decided to get a nuke. The cities of South Korea already represent a hostage for NK to threaten if they need to.


I am perfectly aware of the situation in North Korea.

I am willing to put money on whether or not there are groups of opposition within the NK police state. I understand they don't have a formal opposition, but I am taking the concept in the broadest possible sense, not limited to what you find in a parliament. And I'm willing to bet that at one point or another in history, the US government provided some of them with assistance (either directly or indirectly).

I don't think NK views its ability to attack SK as sufficient influence in terms of deterrent. It might surprise you, but what the US does or does not need may not matter quite as much as you think.


On October 22 2016 04:22 oBlade wrote:
You went from their pursuit of nuclear weapons being credible to it just being their perspective. Well, the Kim dynasty is nuts. Their view could be that Hello Kitty is a Japanese plot that requires a military response.


Their perspective that an unstable US president is a solid point for being worried about the military power of the US, I'd say. Regardless of how inane their overall point of view is.
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-21 19:30:08
October 21 2016 19:29 GMT
#114640
On October 22 2016 04:20 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2016 04:11 a_flayer wrote:
On October 22 2016 03:58 oBlade wrote:
On October 22 2016 03:55 a_flayer wrote:
On October 22 2016 03:50 KwarK wrote:
On October 22 2016 03:48 a_flayer wrote:
How close were we to the massive array of US nukes being under the control of a megalomaniac? NK's position of wanting nuclear weapons to be able to defend themselves against the American threat is suddenly a lot more credible.

It's not even slightly credible. The only reason anyone wants to attack NK is because they're working on nuclear missile tech.


I'd say that's a good point, but somehow I get the idea that the US was funding groups to undermine the NK government long before they started their nuclear program.

Undermine in what way?


Covert actions, funding or arming the opposition. Hell, they even consider the alliance/collaboration with South Korea a direct attack on their interests. I'm not saying that their behaviour is very sensible, its just their view. And, personally, even I felt ill at ease when Trump started gaining momentum and I listened in to what was being said at the RNC, so yeah, I'd say that gives them at least some credit towards to being worried. Whether that's 1 out of 100 or 1 out of 1000 before being completely justified that's up to you.

I don't think you know as much about NK as you think you do. It's not like the Ukraine where the US government discreetly funds a political party that opposes Russia. It's a single party police state. There isn't internal opposition and every state that exists outside of the borders of NK represents external opposition. The existence of people outside of the borders of NK undermines the NK government. Exchanging currency for goods, or simply reading the internet and exchanging ideas on teamliquid is undermining the NK government.

The US did not create a need for NK to add a nuclear deterrent to their already existing deterrents. The border was stable for 40+ years before they decided to get a nuke. The cities of South Korea already represent a hostage for NK to threaten if they need to.


adding for context, a senior general was executed by firing squad for dozing off during a military parade. imagine what happens to someone who whispers a joke about the dear leader being tubby, let alone plots rebellion. north korea is INSANE.
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