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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
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On September 21 2016 05:02 Barrin wrote:
Common knowledge does not require a citation.
And also does not apply to the discussion at hand. The existence of a fight or flight response in humans does not prove that we are prone to tribalism due to genetic predisposition
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On September 21 2016 05:05 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 04:26 KwarK wrote:On September 21 2016 04:23 Jaaaaasper wrote:On September 21 2016 02:11 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2016 02:08 Jaaaaasper wrote:On September 21 2016 02:03 farvacola wrote:Here's a controversial notion from this liberal: American schools don't do nearly enough indoctrination as it is  Here's another one from a liberal. American schools are a fox news teir echo chamber with only left to far left wing opinions becoming wide spread. If American colleges weren't so left wing slanted, we wouldn't have Bernie Sanders or Jill Stein even close to relevant. What evidence is this opinion based on? Most of the people who make Facebook-ish references to the liberal echo chamber on college campuses have either A) never been to college or B) had a really bad time in college because they have terrible notions. This is not to say that the academy isn't liberally biased, it definitely is, but the idea that campuses are "liberal echo chambers" ignores the likelihood that the vast majority of college graduates come out of the system never having encountered this echo chamber being posited. I mean there is a fair amount of evidence that conservative professors get a lot less slack to talk politics than liberal ones,and safe spaces are defintly a liberal notion. Plus I've made the mistake of talking politics on campus a few times. I agree with the echo chamber, I just don't like being in one Again, there is actual evidence that the banking industry pays business schools to promote the deregulation of banking as economic orthodoxy. If you want to make the case that all the professors are working together to push a single position and indoctrinate their students, well, there is evidence for that. But they're not trying to indoctrinate their students into thinking that only white people can be racist or whatever. Its not a intentional push of ideologies tbh, its much more that most universities have more liberal professors than conservative ones, which leads to a fairly one sided discussion of politcs in classes and thus on campus as a whole. A echochamber isn't necessarily a intentionally created thing, in fact it rarely is, but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem.
And the other thing that bears mentioning is that the further into the liberal arts you go, the more liberal/leftist that the professors/academics become.
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On September 21 2016 05:12 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 05:05 Jaaaaasper wrote:On September 21 2016 04:26 KwarK wrote:On September 21 2016 04:23 Jaaaaasper wrote:On September 21 2016 02:11 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2016 02:08 Jaaaaasper wrote:On September 21 2016 02:03 farvacola wrote:Here's a controversial notion from this liberal: American schools don't do nearly enough indoctrination as it is Here's another one from a liberal. American schools are a fox news teir echo chamber with only left to far left wing opinions becoming wide spread. If American colleges weren't so left wing slanted, we wouldn't have Bernie Sanders or Jill Stein even close to relevant. What evidence is this opinion based on? Most of the people who make Facebook-ish references to the liberal echo chamber on college campuses have either A) never been to college or B) had a really bad time in college because they have terrible notions. This is not to say that the academy isn't liberally biased, it definitely is, but the idea that campuses are "liberal echo chambers" ignores the likelihood that the vast majority of college graduates come out of the system never having encountered this echo chamber being posited. I mean there is a fair amount of evidence that conservative professors get a lot less slack to talk politics than liberal ones,and safe spaces are defintly a liberal notion. Plus I've made the mistake of talking politics on campus a few times. I agree with the echo chamber, I just don't like being in one Again, there is actual evidence that the banking industry pays business schools to promote the deregulation of banking as economic orthodoxy. If you want to make the case that all the professors are working together to push a single position and indoctrinate their students, well, there is evidence for that. But they're not trying to indoctrinate their students into thinking that only white people can be racist or whatever. Its not a intentional push of ideologies tbh, its much more that most universities have more liberal professors than conservative ones, which leads to a fairly one sided discussion of politcs in classes and thus on campus as a whole. A echochamber isn't necessarily a intentionally created thing, in fact it rarely is, but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem. And the other that bears mentioning is that the further into the liberal arts you go, the more liberal/leftist that the professors/academics become.
My experience is actually that the far-left concentrates in between science and the humanities, in social sciences.
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On September 21 2016 05:14 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 05:06 Plansix wrote:On September 21 2016 05:02 Barrin wrote:
Common knowledge does not require a citation. And also does not apply to the discussion at hand. The existence of a fight or flight response in humans does not prove that we are prone to tribalism due to genetic predisposition Right, that would be a non sequitur. Hard to follow these chains >.<
Not your fault. Someone rekindled an argument they got in 3 pages ago, but neglected to quote the post that started it or provide much context.
On September 21 2016 05:17 Yoav wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 05:12 xDaunt wrote:On September 21 2016 05:05 Jaaaaasper wrote:On September 21 2016 04:26 KwarK wrote:On September 21 2016 04:23 Jaaaaasper wrote:On September 21 2016 02:11 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2016 02:08 Jaaaaasper wrote:On September 21 2016 02:03 farvacola wrote:Here's a controversial notion from this liberal: American schools don't do nearly enough indoctrination as it is Here's another one from a liberal. American schools are a fox news teir echo chamber with only left to far left wing opinions becoming wide spread. If American colleges weren't so left wing slanted, we wouldn't have Bernie Sanders or Jill Stein even close to relevant. What evidence is this opinion based on? Most of the people who make Facebook-ish references to the liberal echo chamber on college campuses have either A) never been to college or B) had a really bad time in college because they have terrible notions. This is not to say that the academy isn't liberally biased, it definitely is, but the idea that campuses are "liberal echo chambers" ignores the likelihood that the vast majority of college graduates come out of the system never having encountered this echo chamber being posited. I mean there is a fair amount of evidence that conservative professors get a lot less slack to talk politics than liberal ones,and safe spaces are defintly a liberal notion. Plus I've made the mistake of talking politics on campus a few times. I agree with the echo chamber, I just don't like being in one Again, there is actual evidence that the banking industry pays business schools to promote the deregulation of banking as economic orthodoxy. If you want to make the case that all the professors are working together to push a single position and indoctrinate their students, well, there is evidence for that. But they're not trying to indoctrinate their students into thinking that only white people can be racist or whatever. Its not a intentional push of ideologies tbh, its much more that most universities have more liberal professors than conservative ones, which leads to a fairly one sided discussion of politcs in classes and thus on campus as a whole. A echochamber isn't necessarily a intentionally created thing, in fact it rarely is, but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem. And the other that bears mentioning is that the further into the liberal arts you go, the more liberal/leftist that the professors/academics become. My experience is actually that the far-left concentrates in between science and the humanities, in social sciences.
I think that might differ from college to college. I remember my social sciences being center left about political issues. The pure art department was amazingly far left. But the more applied arts(animation, graphic design, film) were always opposed to that section of the facility and very pragmatic about students and employment. The constant infighting in the department was sort of hilarious.
And my history department was pretty left. But this was during the Iraq war, so everyone who studied history constantly talked about how poorly planned that war was.
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On September 21 2016 04:58 RealityIsKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 04:52 Doodsmack wrote:On September 21 2016 04:25 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 21 2016 03:44 Mohdoo wrote:
Did reality is king used to post here for a while? I feel like we've seen this exact same posting style before. Was the guy named cowboy or something? I forget. Either way, we've seen this exact same personality and posting style before. Walk into the thread replying to every liberal poster with baiting 1 liners and downright dismissing of science. Can't tell if it is a ban dodger or just s common archetype coming out of Reddit lately. Yeah let's not be reasonable and immediately go for the censorship. Please that's not how a free society should function. Every single points need to be argued and To that genetic science dude, you should've absolutely opened with that line and then you immediately went for the long wall of text subliminal insults. You could've saved A LOT of your time. You should've posted studies to prove that "No, people do not have survival instincts.". Because the basic funding principle of biology is evolutionary survival of the fittest. So if you want to argue against that, go a ahead and I would like to educated. And also thinking of ignoring Plansix because all he does is yell names. "lol the burden is on you to prove me wrong" Absolutely correct, the first lesson in biology people learn in middle school is that we have survival instincts ingrained in our genetics.
Therefore tribalism?
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On September 21 2016 05:12 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 05:05 Jaaaaasper wrote:On September 21 2016 04:26 KwarK wrote:On September 21 2016 04:23 Jaaaaasper wrote:On September 21 2016 02:11 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2016 02:08 Jaaaaasper wrote:On September 21 2016 02:03 farvacola wrote:Here's a controversial notion from this liberal: American schools don't do nearly enough indoctrination as it is Here's another one from a liberal. American schools are a fox news teir echo chamber with only left to far left wing opinions becoming wide spread. If American colleges weren't so left wing slanted, we wouldn't have Bernie Sanders or Jill Stein even close to relevant. What evidence is this opinion based on? Most of the people who make Facebook-ish references to the liberal echo chamber on college campuses have either A) never been to college or B) had a really bad time in college because they have terrible notions. This is not to say that the academy isn't liberally biased, it definitely is, but the idea that campuses are "liberal echo chambers" ignores the likelihood that the vast majority of college graduates come out of the system never having encountered this echo chamber being posited. I mean there is a fair amount of evidence that conservative professors get a lot less slack to talk politics than liberal ones,and safe spaces are defintly a liberal notion. Plus I've made the mistake of talking politics on campus a few times. I agree with the echo chamber, I just don't like being in one Again, there is actual evidence that the banking industry pays business schools to promote the deregulation of banking as economic orthodoxy. If you want to make the case that all the professors are working together to push a single position and indoctrinate their students, well, there is evidence for that. But they're not trying to indoctrinate their students into thinking that only white people can be racist or whatever. Its not a intentional push of ideologies tbh, its much more that most universities have more liberal professors than conservative ones, which leads to a fairly one sided discussion of politcs in classes and thus on campus as a whole. A echochamber isn't necessarily a intentionally created thing, in fact it rarely is, but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem. And the other thing that bears mentioning is that the further into the liberal arts you go, the more liberal/leftist that the professors/academics become.
a chicken or egg scenario???? whats the relationship between iq and conservatism in the population?
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RiK -> it's not really survival of the fittest, but survival of those that reproduce best, which is not the same as "fitness".
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RealityIsKing is working from some very outdated notions of genetics, behavior, culture and the interplay between them. It is like I am not even sure where to begin. BallinWitStalin's post at the top of the page is a fairly good starting point.
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On September 21 2016 05:12 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 05:05 Jaaaaasper wrote:On September 21 2016 04:26 KwarK wrote:On September 21 2016 04:23 Jaaaaasper wrote:On September 21 2016 02:11 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2016 02:08 Jaaaaasper wrote:On September 21 2016 02:03 farvacola wrote:Here's a controversial notion from this liberal: American schools don't do nearly enough indoctrination as it is Here's another one from a liberal. American schools are a fox news teir echo chamber with only left to far left wing opinions becoming wide spread. If American colleges weren't so left wing slanted, we wouldn't have Bernie Sanders or Jill Stein even close to relevant. What evidence is this opinion based on? Most of the people who make Facebook-ish references to the liberal echo chamber on college campuses have either A) never been to college or B) had a really bad time in college because they have terrible notions. This is not to say that the academy isn't liberally biased, it definitely is, but the idea that campuses are "liberal echo chambers" ignores the likelihood that the vast majority of college graduates come out of the system never having encountered this echo chamber being posited. I mean there is a fair amount of evidence that conservative professors get a lot less slack to talk politics than liberal ones,and safe spaces are defintly a liberal notion. Plus I've made the mistake of talking politics on campus a few times. I agree with the echo chamber, I just don't like being in one Again, there is actual evidence that the banking industry pays business schools to promote the deregulation of banking as economic orthodoxy. If you want to make the case that all the professors are working together to push a single position and indoctrinate their students, well, there is evidence for that. But they're not trying to indoctrinate their students into thinking that only white people can be racist or whatever. Its not a intentional push of ideologies tbh, its much more that most universities have more liberal professors than conservative ones, which leads to a fairly one sided discussion of politcs in classes and thus on campus as a whole. A echochamber isn't necessarily a intentionally created thing, in fact it rarely is, but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem. And the other thing that bears mentioning is that the further into the liberal arts you go, the more liberal/leftist that the professors/academics become.
While this is probably true, just about all of the actual science professors I've had have also been liberal, as well as business law mivro and macro economics.
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On September 21 2016 05:35 Slaughter wrote:
RealityIsKing is working from some very outdated notions of genetics, behavior, culture and the interplay between them. It is like I am not even sure where to begin. BallinWitStalin's post at the top of the page is a fairly good starting point.
I feel the natural progression of the discussion will be from survival of the fittest into justifying pure meritocracy.
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On September 21 2016 05:23 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 05:12 xDaunt wrote:On September 21 2016 05:05 Jaaaaasper wrote:On September 21 2016 04:26 KwarK wrote:On September 21 2016 04:23 Jaaaaasper wrote:On September 21 2016 02:11 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2016 02:08 Jaaaaasper wrote:On September 21 2016 02:03 farvacola wrote:Here's a controversial notion from this liberal: American schools don't do nearly enough indoctrination as it is Here's another one from a liberal. American schools are a fox news teir echo chamber with only left to far left wing opinions becoming wide spread. If American colleges weren't so left wing slanted, we wouldn't have Bernie Sanders or Jill Stein even close to relevant. What evidence is this opinion based on? Most of the people who make Facebook-ish references to the liberal echo chamber on college campuses have either A) never been to college or B) had a really bad time in college because they have terrible notions. This is not to say that the academy isn't liberally biased, it definitely is, but the idea that campuses are "liberal echo chambers" ignores the likelihood that the vast majority of college graduates come out of the system never having encountered this echo chamber being posited. I mean there is a fair amount of evidence that conservative professors get a lot less slack to talk politics than liberal ones,and safe spaces are defintly a liberal notion. Plus I've made the mistake of talking politics on campus a few times. I agree with the echo chamber, I just don't like being in one Again, there is actual evidence that the banking industry pays business schools to promote the deregulation of banking as economic orthodoxy. If you want to make the case that all the professors are working together to push a single position and indoctrinate their students, well, there is evidence for that. But they're not trying to indoctrinate their students into thinking that only white people can be racist or whatever. Its not a intentional push of ideologies tbh, its much more that most universities have more liberal professors than conservative ones, which leads to a fairly one sided discussion of politcs in classes and thus on campus as a whole. A echochamber isn't necessarily a intentionally created thing, in fact it rarely is, but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem. And the other thing that bears mentioning is that the further into the liberal arts you go, the more liberal/leftist that the professors/academics become. a chicken or egg scenario???? whats the relationship between iq and conservatism in the population?
No idea.
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On September 21 2016 05:12 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 05:05 Jaaaaasper wrote:On September 21 2016 04:26 KwarK wrote:On September 21 2016 04:23 Jaaaaasper wrote:On September 21 2016 02:11 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2016 02:08 Jaaaaasper wrote:On September 21 2016 02:03 farvacola wrote:Here's a controversial notion from this liberal: American schools don't do nearly enough indoctrination as it is Here's another one from a liberal. American schools are a fox news teir echo chamber with only left to far left wing opinions becoming wide spread. If American colleges weren't so left wing slanted, we wouldn't have Bernie Sanders or Jill Stein even close to relevant. What evidence is this opinion based on? Most of the people who make Facebook-ish references to the liberal echo chamber on college campuses have either A) never been to college or B) had a really bad time in college because they have terrible notions. This is not to say that the academy isn't liberally biased, it definitely is, but the idea that campuses are "liberal echo chambers" ignores the likelihood that the vast majority of college graduates come out of the system never having encountered this echo chamber being posited. I mean there is a fair amount of evidence that conservative professors get a lot less slack to talk politics than liberal ones,and safe spaces are defintly a liberal notion. Plus I've made the mistake of talking politics on campus a few times. I agree with the echo chamber, I just don't like being in one Again, there is actual evidence that the banking industry pays business schools to promote the deregulation of banking as economic orthodoxy. If you want to make the case that all the professors are working together to push a single position and indoctrinate their students, well, there is evidence for that. But they're not trying to indoctrinate their students into thinking that only white people can be racist or whatever. Its not a intentional push of ideologies tbh, its much more that most universities have more liberal professors than conservative ones, which leads to a fairly one sided discussion of politcs in classes and thus on campus as a whole. A echochamber isn't necessarily a intentionally created thing, in fact it rarely is, but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem. And the other thing that bears mentioning is that the further into the liberal arts you go, the more liberal/leftist that the professors/academics become.
Thats not always true. I almost rage quit a economics course because the professor used it as a podium to lecture on his politics and you lost points on exams and homework if you didn't kiss his ass and fit your answer to biases.
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On September 21 2016 05:05 BallinWitStalin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2016 04:25 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 21 2016 03:44 Mohdoo wrote:
Did reality is king used to post here for a while? I feel like we've seen this exact same posting style before. Was the guy named cowboy or something? I forget. Either way, we've seen this exact same personality and posting style before. Walk into the thread replying to every liberal poster with baiting 1 liners and downright dismissing of science. Can't tell if it is a ban dodger or just s common archetype coming out of Reddit lately. Yeah let's not be reasonable and immediately go for the censorship. Please that's not how a free society should function. Every single points need to be argued and To that genetic science dude, you should've absolutely opened with that line and then you immediately went for the long wall of text subliminal insults. You could've saved A LOT of your time. You should've posted studies to prove that "No, people do not have survival instincts.". Because the basic funding principle of biology is evolutionary survival of the fittest. So if you want to argue against that, go a ahead and I would like to educated. And also thinking of ignoring Plansix because all he does is yell names. This will be my last post responding to you, this is getting a bit too intimate; if I keep posting like this all of TL is going to know exactly how big my dick is, so I won't respond further after this. a) I called you out for saying something that should be verified with evidence, but inherently cannot be ("tribalism is in our genetics", or something silly like that) b) You did not elaborate on any connection between survival instincts and tribalism; in fact, without a strict definition of tribalism to begin with (and therefor how "survival instincts" affect it) applying the concept in any way scientifically is impossible. In fact, I have no idea how you think "survival instincts" affect what you think "tribalism" is. c) The onus is generally on the people claiming the silly thing (i.e. "tribalism is in our genetics") to provide evidence for it. I cannot actually provide sources disproving this, either, because (as I have repeatedly said) you have not provided any kind of coherent definition/meaning for "tribalism". Additionally, I suspect it is something inherently unprovable scientifically; we aren't allowed to experiment very much on humans anymore, so most attempts to scientifically ascribe behavior to genetic origins are not possible. I mean, think about it: how would you even go about "proving" the association between putative genetics and "tribalism"? Conduct controlled experiments where you manipulate clans of genetically similar human beings for generations? Find specific genes associated with "tribalism", knock them out, and then see how those human beings behave? You can't actually disentangle "tribalism behavior" from culture and genetics unless you do these sorts of things; this is why I was saying it's a tautological argument -> it basically boils down to "humans behave this way because I think that humans behave this way". It's meaningless, except as an internal statement to an arbitrary worldview. As an example, take your concept of "survival of the fittest" -> Putting aside the meaninglessness of the term "tribe", what I think you want to say is that human beings that associated in "tribes" (whatever this means) historically had higher fitness (reproductive output) than humans that didn't. We can just call it "trait x", to simplify things. Even assuming that it is the case that "trait x" increases relative reproductive output (which, again, would need to be proven experimentally), how do you know it's associated with genetics? Culture is "heritable" -> not in the strict genetic sense, but it's something that is passed on from generation to generation, from parents to offspring (assuming the offspring are raised in the same cultural context as the parents). It could easily be the case that cultures with "trait x" (rather than humans) have higher fitness than those without this trait. Unless you conduct rigorous experiments of the nature I described above, you actually can't disentangle this. This is why racists/white supremacists piss me off, too. They like to argue about evolution and genetics, but they are arguing things that are largely un-provable scientifically, what with our ethical reservations about conducting large scale experimentation on human beings. Consider yourself educated, I'm out.
I was of kind of thinking these type of things are common sense.
One person cannot handle the tasks of building a sustainable civilization.
It requires people building infrastructures at home, finding sustainable resources, and other tasks.
And people will work with other people they can relate to with common characteristics.
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Simplistic(common sense) explanations for complex systems are normally incorrect.
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I don't know exactly what's meant by the use of "tribalism" in this context but UW did have some research that indicated infants as young as 15 months displayed signs of in-group bias
Hard to say if "nurture" plays a significant role in developing such bias.
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EPT
