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On September 17 2016 06:51 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 06:39 ZasZ. wrote:On September 17 2016 06:36 xDaunt wrote:
What's undeniably funny about all of this is that dredging up the birther story as a means of taking down Trump may end up backfiring spectacularly. I think the most onerous interpretation of this information is that Hillary thought about pushing birtherism in 2008 and backed off, most likely for political reasons. While that makes her slimy (who would have guessed?) it's still not as bad as Trump championing the idea publicly for 6 years, even after Obama publicly released his birth certificate and the only people left to appeal to were the conspiracy nutjobs. Sure, I agree with you that what Trump did was worse than what Hillary may have done. My point is that this "fact" may not matter. Trump's spin has taken over the narrative. He's saying, "Hey, I finished what Hillary started," so now people are taking another a look at what, exactly, Hillary started, if anything. And it's looking like there are some skeletons in the closet that Hillary would rather keep under wraps.
Except he didn't finish it. That part is a lie too and the press is going to start calling him out on that, because he didn't some when Obama released in birth certificate.
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Hillary didn't create the birther movement. However, she didn't really disavow it in 2008 when it became obvious that the only way she was going to stand a chance in the primary was due to racist white people (yes, WV loved Hillary so much more than Obama for some reason... it's so hard to figure out why they switched to the most openly racist candidate the second there was one in the race). In a way it's karma.
But yeah, the propaganda thing is totally true about this cycle
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On September 17 2016 06:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 06:51 xDaunt wrote:On September 17 2016 06:39 ZasZ. wrote:On September 17 2016 06:36 xDaunt wrote:
What's undeniably funny about all of this is that dredging up the birther story as a means of taking down Trump may end up backfiring spectacularly. I think the most onerous interpretation of this information is that Hillary thought about pushing birtherism in 2008 and backed off, most likely for political reasons. While that makes her slimy (who would have guessed?) it's still not as bad as Trump championing the idea publicly for 6 years, even after Obama publicly released his birth certificate and the only people left to appeal to were the conspiracy nutjobs. Sure, I agree with you that what Trump did was worse than what Hillary may have done. My point is that this "fact" may not matter. Trump's spin has taken over the narrative. He's saying, "Hey, I finished what Hillary started," so now people are taking another a look at what, exactly, Hillary started, if anything. And it's looking like there are some skeletons in the closet that Hillary would rather keep under wraps. Except he didn't finish it. That part is a lie too and the press is going to start calling him out on that, because he didn't some when Obama released in birth certificate.
According to this clip he said "President Obama was born in the United States, period," so we can definitively say it's over now.
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On September 17 2016 06:55 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 06:53 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 06:51 xDaunt wrote:On September 17 2016 06:39 ZasZ. wrote:On September 17 2016 06:36 xDaunt wrote:
What's undeniably funny about all of this is that dredging up the birther story as a means of taking down Trump may end up backfiring spectacularly. I think the most onerous interpretation of this information is that Hillary thought about pushing birtherism in 2008 and backed off, most likely for political reasons. While that makes her slimy (who would have guessed?) it's still not as bad as Trump championing the idea publicly for 6 years, even after Obama publicly released his birth certificate and the only people left to appeal to were the conspiracy nutjobs. Sure, I agree with you that what Trump did was worse than what Hillary may have done. My point is that this "fact" may not matter. Trump's spin has taken over the narrative. He's saying, "Hey, I finished what Hillary started," so now people are taking another a look at what, exactly, Hillary started, if anything. And it's looking like there are some skeletons in the closet that Hillary would rather keep under wraps. Except he didn't finish it. That part is a lie too and the press is going to start calling him out on that, because he didn't some when Obama released in birth certificate. According to this clip he said "President Obama was born in the United States, period," so we can definitively say it's over now.
Obama ended it in 2011 when released his birth certificate. Trump had nothing to do with it. He continued to claim the document was fake for years after that because he doesn't live in reality.
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On September 17 2016 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 06:36 xDaunt wrote:
What's undeniably funny about all of this is that dredging up the birther story as a means of taking down Trump may end up backfiring spectacularly. If it ends up backfiring, I will have officially lost my faith in the Clinton campaign. That would mean that they knew it could backfire, but felt like they'd be able to prevent it. Like many other things. I'll still want her as my president, but I won't have faith that she will be. Hopefully that doesn't happen, though.
I almost want to say that many of these strategic blunders by Hillary's campaign are happening because she is grossly overestimating the mainstream media's ability to cover for her.
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On September 17 2016 07:00 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 06:55 oBlade wrote:On September 17 2016 06:53 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 06:51 xDaunt wrote:On September 17 2016 06:39 ZasZ. wrote:On September 17 2016 06:36 xDaunt wrote:
What's undeniably funny about all of this is that dredging up the birther story as a means of taking down Trump may end up backfiring spectacularly. I think the most onerous interpretation of this information is that Hillary thought about pushing birtherism in 2008 and backed off, most likely for political reasons. While that makes her slimy (who would have guessed?) it's still not as bad as Trump championing the idea publicly for 6 years, even after Obama publicly released his birth certificate and the only people left to appeal to were the conspiracy nutjobs. Sure, I agree with you that what Trump did was worse than what Hillary may have done. My point is that this "fact" may not matter. Trump's spin has taken over the narrative. He's saying, "Hey, I finished what Hillary started," so now people are taking another a look at what, exactly, Hillary started, if anything. And it's looking like there are some skeletons in the closet that Hillary would rather keep under wraps. Except he didn't finish it. That part is a lie too and the press is going to start calling him out on that, because he didn't some when Obama released in birth certificate. According to this clip he said "President Obama was born in the United States, period," so we can definitively say it's over now. Obama ended it in 2011 when released his birth certificate. Trump had nothing to do with it. He continued to claim the document was fake for years after that because he doesn't live in reality.
It was Trump stirring up shit in 2011 that led to that. Do you have a source of him questioning the birth certificate for years or is that something that you just know?
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On September 17 2016 05:16 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 03:53 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 17 2016 02:56 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. That's not one issue. At all. Maybe the Muslim issue, but definitely not the birther issue. There are such things as American Muslims. I group them together because they are related and the implication is all in there. He's a Muslim born in Kenya, not an American Christian born in Hawaii like he says. Like the Muslim issue doesn't matter as much on its own as it does in combination with the birther issue. The two go together and all in all it's still an implicit accusation so it's not so clear cut that it was meant to be one but not the other. Strongly disagree. The questioning of Obama's birthplace was to ask whether or not Obama could even legally be president. On the other hand, calling him a Muslim was to try and establish that: 1. He wasn't a Christian (and there is a huge number of Americans who would only vote for a Christian) 2. He is a Muslim "sympathizer" (i.e., he'd be against Israel and/or would defend the wrong sides of the conflicts in the Middle East). Basically, people were asking voters to make a moral claim about Obama's religion- "Do you really want to vote for a Muslim?"- rather than a legal claim of "Can Obama even be president?" We all know that it's legal for a Muslim to become president, but people were trying two different underhanded moves: the moral claim that a Muslim shouldn't be elected president, and the legal claim that a Kenyan can't be elected president. Either claim is bullshit since we know Obama is Christian and born in America, but while there might be overlap between the two groups that believe one or the other, implying Obama isn't a Christian isn't the same as implying that he wasn't born in America. If it were a genuine concern that he wasn't legally allowed to be president, they would have brought the matter to court and been done with it. No, it was a matter of throwing shade on Obama to get people to question whether or not they should vote for him as a result of allegations that he is a Muslim/Kenyan. Was any of this really about genuine eligibility? Fuck no, it was just a smear campaign. Same with claiming him to be a secret Muslim.
That's not the way it's ever finished. (Ideally it is! But it never happens that way.) Case in point: Obamacare. Regardless of whether or not a court upholds something, politicians are going to throw shade at it nonstop and either continue to inappropriately question the legality of the situation, or instead try to question it morally. This kind of thing never ends, unfortunately. There was never a serious case as to whether or not Obama was born in America. It was always bullshit, and only brought up because he's black. And most of the people who questioned Obama's legality knew that they didn't have a real argument; instead, they just wanted to perpetuate stupid drama.
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On September 17 2016 07:17 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 07:00 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 06:55 oBlade wrote:On September 17 2016 06:53 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 06:51 xDaunt wrote:On September 17 2016 06:39 ZasZ. wrote:On September 17 2016 06:36 xDaunt wrote:
What's undeniably funny about all of this is that dredging up the birther story as a means of taking down Trump may end up backfiring spectacularly. I think the most onerous interpretation of this information is that Hillary thought about pushing birtherism in 2008 and backed off, most likely for political reasons. While that makes her slimy (who would have guessed?) it's still not as bad as Trump championing the idea publicly for 6 years, even after Obama publicly released his birth certificate and the only people left to appeal to were the conspiracy nutjobs. Sure, I agree with you that what Trump did was worse than what Hillary may have done. My point is that this "fact" may not matter. Trump's spin has taken over the narrative. He's saying, "Hey, I finished what Hillary started," so now people are taking another a look at what, exactly, Hillary started, if anything. And it's looking like there are some skeletons in the closet that Hillary would rather keep under wraps. Except he didn't finish it. That part is a lie too and the press is going to start calling him out on that, because he didn't some when Obama released in birth certificate. According to this clip he said "President Obama was born in the United States, period," so we can definitively say it's over now. Obama ended it in 2011 when released his birth certificate. Trump had nothing to do with it. He continued to claim the document was fake for years after that because he doesn't live in reality. It was Trump stirring up shit in 2011 that led to that. Do you have a source of him questioning the birth certificate for years or is that something that you just know?
Nope.
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From that site:
"Doyle said that was a “lie”"
"Doyle: So we — absolutely, [neither] the campaign nor Hillary did not start the Birther movement, period, end of story there."
Boom?
Also, it's Breitbart lol... literally working for Trump now lol.
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On September 17 2016 06:39 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 06:36 xDaunt wrote:
What's undeniably funny about all of this is that dredging up the birther story as a means of taking down Trump may end up backfiring spectacularly. If it ends up backfiring, I will have officially lost my faith in the Clinton campaign. That would mean that they knew it could backfire, but felt like they'd be able to prevent it. Like many other things. I'll still want her as my president, but I won't have faith that she will be. Hopefully that doesn't happen, though.
Didn't we pass that point already?
The fact that they've blundered hard enough repeatedly for things to get to the point where they are now should have shaken anyone's faith long ago.
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On September 17 2016 07:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:From that site: "Doyle said that was a “lie”" "Doyle: So we — absolutely, [neither] the campaign nor Hillary did not start the Birther movement, period, end of story there." Boom? Also, it's Breitbart lol... literally working for Trump now lol. Let me help you.
Blitzer: Someone supporting Hillary Clinton was trying to promote this so-called Birther issue? What happened?
Doyle: So we — absolutely, the campaign nor Hillary did not start the Birther movement, period, end of story there. There was a volunteer coordinator, I believe, in late 2007, I believe, in December, one of our volunteer coordinators in one of the counties in Iowa — I don’t recall whether they were an actual paid staffer, but they did forward an email that promoted the conspiracy.
Blitzer: The Birther conspiracy?
Doyle: Yeah, Hillary made the decision immediately to let that person go. We let that person go. And it was so, beyond the pale, Wolf, and so not worthy of the kind of campaign that certainly Hillary wanted to run.
So yeah, she denies it, but she also acknowledges that one of their staff forwarded it.
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On September 17 2016 06:55 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 06:53 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 06:51 xDaunt wrote:On September 17 2016 06:39 ZasZ. wrote:On September 17 2016 06:36 xDaunt wrote:
What's undeniably funny about all of this is that dredging up the birther story as a means of taking down Trump may end up backfiring spectacularly. I think the most onerous interpretation of this information is that Hillary thought about pushing birtherism in 2008 and backed off, most likely for political reasons. While that makes her slimy (who would have guessed?) it's still not as bad as Trump championing the idea publicly for 6 years, even after Obama publicly released his birth certificate and the only people left to appeal to were the conspiracy nutjobs. Sure, I agree with you that what Trump did was worse than what Hillary may have done. My point is that this "fact" may not matter. Trump's spin has taken over the narrative. He's saying, "Hey, I finished what Hillary started," so now people are taking another a look at what, exactly, Hillary started, if anything. And it's looking like there are some skeletons in the closet that Hillary would rather keep under wraps. Except he didn't finish it. That part is a lie too and the press is going to start calling him out on that, because he didn't some when Obama released in birth certificate. According to this clip he said "President Obama was born in the United States, period," so we can definitively say it's over now.
Until he says it was sarcasm in like a day or something.
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On September 17 2016 07:17 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 07:00 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 06:55 oBlade wrote:On September 17 2016 06:53 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 06:51 xDaunt wrote:On September 17 2016 06:39 ZasZ. wrote:On September 17 2016 06:36 xDaunt wrote:
What's undeniably funny about all of this is that dredging up the birther story as a means of taking down Trump may end up backfiring spectacularly. I think the most onerous interpretation of this information is that Hillary thought about pushing birtherism in 2008 and backed off, most likely for political reasons. While that makes her slimy (who would have guessed?) it's still not as bad as Trump championing the idea publicly for 6 years, even after Obama publicly released his birth certificate and the only people left to appeal to were the conspiracy nutjobs. Sure, I agree with you that what Trump did was worse than what Hillary may have done. My point is that this "fact" may not matter. Trump's spin has taken over the narrative. He's saying, "Hey, I finished what Hillary started," so now people are taking another a look at what, exactly, Hillary started, if anything. And it's looking like there are some skeletons in the closet that Hillary would rather keep under wraps. Except he didn't finish it. That part is a lie too and the press is going to start calling him out on that, because he didn't some when Obama released in birth certificate. According to this clip he said "President Obama was born in the United States, period," so we can definitively say it's over now. Obama ended it in 2011 when released his birth certificate. Trump had nothing to do with it. He continued to claim the document was fake for years after that because he doesn't live in reality. It was Trump stirring up shit in 2011 that led to that. Do you have a source of him questioning the birth certificate for years or is that something that you just know?
The source is Trump, are you serious? My favorite is the one where he suggests a Hawaii state health official was assassinated over this
+ Show Spoiler +https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/225620165138726912
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let's just agree not to be sucked into the right/ alt-right's whirlpool of false equivalence. there's some truth in clinton taking advantage of birtherism indirectly for political gain, but it's orders of magnitudes less than the trump shenanigans.
i'd guess the "hillary herself fired the volunteer" thing is a bit of an exaggeration but i think it reflects well on the campaign, regardless of who actually made that decision.
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The birther movement is a shining example that Donald Trump is a fly-by-the-seat-of-his-pants over-promiser, under-deliverer, and serial liar no one should believe for an instant about anything. At least Clinton didn't tweet that her people were looking into to it and it was getting dire. What a hack.
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On September 17 2016 07:24 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 07:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:From that site: "Doyle said that was a “lie”" "Doyle: So we — absolutely, [neither] the campaign nor Hillary did not start the Birther movement, period, end of story there." Boom? Also, it's Breitbart lol... literally working for Trump now lol. Let me help you. Show nested quote +Blitzer: Someone supporting Hillary Clinton was trying to promote this so-called Birther issue? What happened?
Doyle: So we — absolutely, the campaign nor Hillary did not start the Birther movement, period, end of story there. There was a volunteer coordinator, I believe, in late 2007, I believe, in December, one of our volunteer coordinators in one of the counties in Iowa — I don’t recall whether they were an actual paid staffer, but they did forward an email that promoted the conspiracy.
Blitzer: The Birther conspiracy?
Doyle: Yeah, Hillary made the decision immediately to let that person go. We let that person go. And it was so, beyond the pale, Wolf, and so not worthy of the kind of campaign that certainly Hillary wanted to run. So yeah, she denies it, but she also acknowledges that one of their staff forwarded it.
Yes I read that, but staffer =/= Clinton, and firing the staffer is clearly Clinton's campaign showing that they disagree with that silliness.
There's really no way for Trump to remove his birther stain and throw it on Clinton. Perpetuating the birther topic will only hurt him.
Again: "contrary to Mr. Trump’s assertion, neither Mrs. Clinton nor her campaign ever publicly questioned Mr. Obama’s citizenship or birthplace, in Hawaii." ~ http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/politics/donald-trump-birther-obama.html?_r=0
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On September 17 2016 07:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
There's really no way for Trump to remove his birther stain and throw it on Clinton. Perpetuating the birther topic will only hurt him.
So far he has parlayed his birther stain into a free press conference and unflattering inquiries into Hillary. How is this hurting him?
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On September 17 2016 07:25 Slaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 06:55 oBlade wrote:On September 17 2016 06:53 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 06:51 xDaunt wrote:On September 17 2016 06:39 ZasZ. wrote:On September 17 2016 06:36 xDaunt wrote:
What's undeniably funny about all of this is that dredging up the birther story as a means of taking down Trump may end up backfiring spectacularly. I think the most onerous interpretation of this information is that Hillary thought about pushing birtherism in 2008 and backed off, most likely for political reasons. While that makes her slimy (who would have guessed?) it's still not as bad as Trump championing the idea publicly for 6 years, even after Obama publicly released his birth certificate and the only people left to appeal to were the conspiracy nutjobs. Sure, I agree with you that what Trump did was worse than what Hillary may have done. My point is that this "fact" may not matter. Trump's spin has taken over the narrative. He's saying, "Hey, I finished what Hillary started," so now people are taking another a look at what, exactly, Hillary started, if anything. And it's looking like there are some skeletons in the closet that Hillary would rather keep under wraps. Except he didn't finish it. That part is a lie too and the press is going to start calling him out on that, because he didn't some when Obama released in birth certificate. According to this clip he said "President Obama was born in the United States, period," so we can definitively say it's over now. Until he says it was sarcasm in like a day or something.
I'll look tomorrow to check the results of your experiment.
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On September 17 2016 07:36 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 07:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
There's really no way for Trump to remove his birther stain and throw it on Clinton. Perpetuating the birther topic will only hurt him. So far he has parlayed his birther stain into a free press conference and unflattering inquiries into Hillary. How is this hurting him?
Yeah I'm not seeing how this hurts Trump at all. Anyone who's bothered by his position on the birther stuff already made up their mind long ago. This just gets him a lot of free press coverage and makes a couple more of the people who already distrust Hillary distrust her slightly more.
I think it's stupid, but the media all kind of just played into Trump's hands on this one.
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On September 17 2016 07:36 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 07:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
There's really no way for Trump to remove his birther stain and throw it on Clinton. Perpetuating the birther topic will only hurt him. So far he has parlayed his birther stain into a free press conference and unflattering inquiries into Hillary. How is this hurting him?
In particular the birther issue has crucified him with black voters:
"Mr. Trump’s refusal to disavow the birther issue helped drive his standing among black voters to historically low levels, with some public opinion polls showing him supported by zero percent of African-Americans."
~ http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/politics/donald-trump-birther-obama.html?_r=0
Also, it's an easy attack by Hillary during the debates if she wants to go there:
"His campaign aides are aware that the issue could also haunt Mr. Trump in his first debate with Mrs. Clinton, on Sept. 26, and they tried for several days to put it to rest."
~ http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/politics/donald-trump-birther-obama.html?_r=0
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EPT
