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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly.
Yes, but Trump is the one that gave it new life, a national stage and offered a 5 million dollar reward(to be donated to a charity) if someone could prove Obama was born in the US. Directly, himself. No one else.
So in the world of blame for the Birther movement, we can say it started with some shitty Clinton supporters and staff. But Trump took the mantle and ran with it for public attention. And only when held down, kicking and screaming, did he finally admit that Obama was a US citizen. But Trump did not admit he was wrong. And he blamed Clinton, rather than admit his mistake.
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On September 17 2016 02:42 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 02:38 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On September 17 2016 02:33 xDaunt wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source You're much nicer than I am. You can't prove the link between the chain emailing PUMAs and the HRC campaign. Claims about Obama’s birthplace appeared in chain emails bouncing around the Web, and one of the first lawsuits over Obama’s birth certificate was filed by Philip Berg, a former deputy Pennsylvania attorney general and a self-described “moderate to liberal” who supported Clinton.
But none of those stories suggests any link between the Clinton campaign, let alone Clinton herself, and the advocacy of theories questioning Obama’s birth in Hawaii.
One of the authors of the Politico story, Byron Tau, now a reporter for the Wall Street Journal, told FactCheck.org via email that “we never found any links between the Clinton campaign and the rumors in 2008.”
The other coauthor of the Politico story, Ben Smith, now the editor-in-chief of BuzzFeed, said in a May 2013 interview on MSNBC that the conspiracy theories traced back to “some of [Hillary Clinton’s] passionate supporters,” during the final throes of Clinton’s 2008 campaign. But he said they did not come from “Clinton herself or her staff.” http://www.factcheck.org/2015/07/was-hillary-clinton-the-original-birther/ Damn, you got me. If only I hadn't said that the Birther movement came straight from Hillary's mouth and that there was no conspiracy theory element to the claim Hillary started the birther movement.
Then show the things the fact checks omit. You say the fact checks omit what the HRC campaign did. Show them. The fact checks all say they can't find anything there and HRC denies it.
The best you have is a memo by Penn about how they should go after Obama's identity (an underhanded, but not birther tactic) and also, Phil Berg filing a lawsuit somewhere in August 2008.
EDIT:
check out http://www.politico.com/story/2011/04/birtherism-where-it-all-began-053563?o=3 if you like facts over supposition
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Clinton supporters saying something means as much as Trump supporters saying something. Let's be real. If you were to sum the total of birther bullshit, then divide it up into percentages, what percent would we attribute to Clinton and what percent would we attribute to Trump?
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On September 17 2016 02:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. That's not one issue. At all. Maybe the Muslim issue, but definitely not the birther issue. There are such things as American Muslims.
I group them together because they are related and the implication is all in there. He's a Muslim born in Kenya, not an American Christian born in Hawaii like he says. Like the Muslim issue doesn't matter as much on its own as it does in combination with the birther issue. The two go together and all in all it's still an implicit accusation so it's not so clear cut that it was meant to be one but not the other.
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On September 17 2016 02:52 CannonsNCarriers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 02:42 xDaunt wrote:On September 17 2016 02:38 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On September 17 2016 02:33 xDaunt wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source You're much nicer than I am. You can't prove the link between the chain emailing PUMAs and the HRC campaign. Claims about Obama’s birthplace appeared in chain emails bouncing around the Web, and one of the first lawsuits over Obama’s birth certificate was filed by Philip Berg, a former deputy Pennsylvania attorney general and a self-described “moderate to liberal” who supported Clinton.
But none of those stories suggests any link between the Clinton campaign, let alone Clinton herself, and the advocacy of theories questioning Obama’s birth in Hawaii.
One of the authors of the Politico story, Byron Tau, now a reporter for the Wall Street Journal, told FactCheck.org via email that “we never found any links between the Clinton campaign and the rumors in 2008.”
The other coauthor of the Politico story, Ben Smith, now the editor-in-chief of BuzzFeed, said in a May 2013 interview on MSNBC that the conspiracy theories traced back to “some of [Hillary Clinton’s] passionate supporters,” during the final throes of Clinton’s 2008 campaign. But he said they did not come from “Clinton herself or her staff.” http://www.factcheck.org/2015/07/was-hillary-clinton-the-original-birther/ Damn, you got me. If only I hadn't said that the Birther movement came straight from Hillary's mouth and that there was no conspiracy theory element to the claim Hillary started the birther movement. Then show the things the fact checks omit. You say the fact checks omit what the HRC campaign did. Show them. The fact checks all say they can't find anything there and HRC denies it. The best you have is a memo by Penn about how they should go after Obama's identity (an underhanded, but not birther tactic) and also, Phil Berg filing a lawsuit somewhere in August 2008.
I already did. I can't help you when you're looking at my posts with the same faculties that a bull has when he's looking at a matador's cape. ¡Olé!
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On September 17 2016 02:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. Yes, but Trump is the one that gave it new life, a national stage and offered a 5 million dollar reward(to be donated to a charity) if someone could prove Obama was born in the US. Directly, himself. No one else. So in the world of blame for the Birther movement, we can say it started with some shitty Clinton supporters and staff. But Trump took the mantle and ran with it for public attention. And only when held down, kicking and screaming, did he finally admit that Obama was a US citizen. But Trump did not admit he was wrong. And he blamed Clinton, rather than admit his mistake.
Sure, that much is all on Trump. I'm not defending his role in a petty witch hunt in the slightest - just providing some evidence to show that Clinton is not without blame for the existence of the issue in the first place.
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On September 17 2016 02:58 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 02:50 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. Yes, but Trump is the one that gave it new life, a national stage and offered a 5 million dollar reward(to be donated to a charity) if someone could prove Obama was born in the US. Directly, himself. No one else. So in the world of blame for the Birther movement, we can say it started with some shitty Clinton supporters and staff. But Trump took the mantle and ran with it for public attention. And only when held down, kicking and screaming, did he finally admit that Obama was a US citizen. But Trump did not admit he was wrong. And he blamed Clinton, rather than admit his mistake. Sure, that much is all on Trump. I'm not defending his role in a petty witch hunt in the slightest - just providing some evidence to show that Clinton is not without blame for the existence of the issue in the first place.
I'll blame the supporters and the staff member who sent out that photo until I see a direct email from Clinton saying "yes, send that out. We need to win Texas." Until then, this is just more Trump trying to shift the discussion away from him peddling a racist conspiracy theory for years to discredit Obama.
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On September 17 2016 02:58 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 02:50 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. Yes, but Trump is the one that gave it new life, a national stage and offered a 5 million dollar reward(to be donated to a charity) if someone could prove Obama was born in the US. Directly, himself. No one else. So in the world of blame for the Birther movement, we can say it started with some shitty Clinton supporters and staff. But Trump took the mantle and ran with it for public attention. And only when held down, kicking and screaming, did he finally admit that Obama was a US citizen. But Trump did not admit he was wrong. And he blamed Clinton, rather than admit his mistake. Sure, that much is all on Trump. I'm not defending his role in a petty witch hunt in the slightest - just providing some evidence to show that Clinton is not without blame for the existence of the issue in the first place.
Do you have enough evidence to overcome the following reporting?
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On September 17 2016 02:58 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 02:50 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. Yes, but Trump is the one that gave it new life, a national stage and offered a 5 million dollar reward(to be donated to a charity) if someone could prove Obama was born in the US. Directly, himself. No one else. So in the world of blame for the Birther movement, we can say it started with some shitty Clinton supporters and staff. But Trump took the mantle and ran with it for public attention. And only when held down, kicking and screaming, did he finally admit that Obama was a US citizen. But Trump did not admit he was wrong. And he blamed Clinton, rather than admit his mistake. Sure, that much is all on Trump. I'm not defending his role in a petty witch hunt in the slightest - just providing some evidence to show that Clinton is not without blame for the existence of the issue in the first place.
At no point in history did Clinton or anyone in her campaign accuse Obama of not being born in the U.S., or even hint that he wasn't. Period. There is no reason to muddy the waters and confuse two different issues.
With regards to the Obama being a Muslim myth and Clinton's involvement, here's a politifact article addressing the issue.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On September 17 2016 03:00 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 02:58 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:50 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. Yes, but Trump is the one that gave it new life, a national stage and offered a 5 million dollar reward(to be donated to a charity) if someone could prove Obama was born in the US. Directly, himself. No one else. So in the world of blame for the Birther movement, we can say it started with some shitty Clinton supporters and staff. But Trump took the mantle and ran with it for public attention. And only when held down, kicking and screaming, did he finally admit that Obama was a US citizen. But Trump did not admit he was wrong. And he blamed Clinton, rather than admit his mistake. Sure, that much is all on Trump. I'm not defending his role in a petty witch hunt in the slightest - just providing some evidence to show that Clinton is not without blame for the existence of the issue in the first place. I'll blame the supporters and the staff member who sent out that photo until I see a direct email from Clinton saying "yes, send that out. We need to win Texas." Until then, this is just more Trump trying to shift the discussion away from him peddling a racist conspiracy theory for years to discredit Obama.
I guess we need a few more email leaks to settle more matters that people care about.
More seriously, my issue is mostly in people trying to overreach and absolve Hillary of any blame for her faults by comparison to Trump. It's like if Hillary were to kill 10 people her supporters would just say "well Trump killed 20 people so it's all fine since we only have the two candidates." No, that's not how it works.
In this specific case, it is Trump who is deflecting blame on an issue, so I don't have all that much to say on the matter; I posted that article mostly so that we would have some reference. But that deflection issue comes up a lot so some minor commentary is in order.
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obama's birth certificate is heavily altered even by "clean up standards" you dont need to be alex jones level of retard to question it. open it up in illustrator or something similar. hundred+ layers, they literally added numbers into the document. and you can see they erased the original text in some parts.
of course the brilliant thing is it makes you look like a dumbass if you bring it up
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On September 17 2016 03:17 Hexe wrote:
obama's birth certificate is heavily altered even by "clean up standards" you dont need to be alex jones level of retard to question it. open it up in illustrator or something similar. hundred+ layers, they literally added numbers into the document. and you can see they erased the original text in some parts.
of course the brilliant thing is it makes you look like a dumbass if you bring it up
You need to be pretty stupid to question it. Like a high level of moronic or deeply racist. Hell, maybe a little of both.
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On September 17 2016 02:55 Mohdoo wrote:
Clinton supporters saying something means as much as Trump supporters saying something. Let's be real. If you were to sum the total of birther bullshit, then divide it up into percentages, what percent would we attribute to Clinton and what percent would we attribute to Trump?
Probably like 5% each, Clinton's role was more formative because it was earlier and during the original 2008 campaign. Trump had a stronger role but in 2011 nobody gave a shit except the people still clinging to it and he got laughed quickly out, and the release of actual documents also popped the balloon.
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On September 17 2016 03:15 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 03:00 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:58 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:50 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. Yes, but Trump is the one that gave it new life, a national stage and offered a 5 million dollar reward(to be donated to a charity) if someone could prove Obama was born in the US. Directly, himself. No one else. So in the world of blame for the Birther movement, we can say it started with some shitty Clinton supporters and staff. But Trump took the mantle and ran with it for public attention. And only when held down, kicking and screaming, did he finally admit that Obama was a US citizen. But Trump did not admit he was wrong. And he blamed Clinton, rather than admit his mistake. Sure, that much is all on Trump. I'm not defending his role in a petty witch hunt in the slightest - just providing some evidence to show that Clinton is not without blame for the existence of the issue in the first place. I'll blame the supporters and the staff member who sent out that photo until I see a direct email from Clinton saying "yes, send that out. We need to win Texas." Until then, this is just more Trump trying to shift the discussion away from him peddling a racist conspiracy theory for years to discredit Obama. I guess we need a few more email leaks to settle more matters that people care about. More seriously, my issue is mostly in people trying to overreach and absolve Hillary of any blame for her faults by comparison to Trump. It's like if Hillary were to kill 10 people her supporters would just say "well Trump killed 20 people so it's all fine since we only have the two candidates." No, that's not how it works. In this specific case, it is Trump who is deflecting blame on an issue, so I don't have all that much to say on the matter; I posted that article mostly so that we would have some reference. But that deflection issue comes up a lot so some minor commentary is in order.
Trump basically told his supporters to attack protesters and he could cover their legal bills and people are still being attacked at Trump rallies since then. But here we are talking about a photo a Clinton staffer sent out 8 years ago.
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On September 17 2016 03:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 03:15 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 03:00 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:58 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:50 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. Yes, but Drumpf is the one that gave it new life, a national stage and offered a 5 million dollar reward(to be donated to a charity) if someone could prove Obama was born in the US. Directly, himself. No one else. So in the world of blame for the Birther movement, we can say it started with some shitty Clinton supporters and staff. But Drumpf took the mantle and ran with it for public attention. And only when held down, kicking and screaming, did he finally admit that Obama was a US citizen. But Drumpf did not admit he was wrong. And he blamed Clinton, rather than admit his mistake. Sure, that much is all on Drumpf. I'm not defending his role in a petty witch hunt in the slightest - just providing some evidence to show that Clinton is not without blame for the existence of the issue in the first place. I'll blame the supporters and the staff member who sent out that photo until I see a direct email from Clinton saying "yes, send that out. We need to win Texas." Until then, this is just more Drumpf trying to shift the discussion away from him peddling a racist conspiracy theory for years to discredit Obama. I guess we need a few more email leaks to settle more matters that people care about. More seriously, my issue is mostly in people trying to overreach and absolve Hillary of any blame for her faults by comparison to Drumpf. It's like if Hillary were to kill 10 people her supporters would just say "well Drumpf killed 20 people so it's all fine since we only have the two candidates." No, that's not how it works. In this specific case, it is Drumpf who is deflecting blame on an issue, so I don't have all that much to say on the matter; I posted that article mostly so that we would have some reference. But that deflection issue comes up a lot so some minor commentary is in order. Drumpf basically told his supporters to attack protesters and he could cover their legal bills and people are still being attacked at Drumpf rallies since then. But here we are talking about a photo a Clinton staffer sent out 8 years ago.
something something, cognitive disonance.
Honestly if I was a Clinton supporter, I would give Drumpf supporters Hillary caused Birther and then by extension Drumpf is now responsible for literally every single reprehensible act his supporters have ever performed.
Which makes Obamas birth issue practically a flash in the pan.
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On September 17 2016 02:08 xDaunt wrote:Ok, so now we know why Trump called the press conference today: Show nested quote +The media showed up to the presidential ballroom of the new Trump International Hotel on Friday morning expecting Donald Trump to take questions about whether he still questions if President Obama was born in the United States.
Instead, they got more than a half hour of a variety of military heroes — generals, medal of honor recipients and a gold star wife — expressing support for the Republican nominee. And it all aired live on the cable news networks.
Before the event, Trump tweeted: “I am now going to the brand new Trump International, Hotel D.C. for a major statement.” That was interpreted by the press to mean he was going to address “birther questions.”
....
Realizing Trump was not using the occasion to address that subject — and instead focus it on the military — many in the press were not happy — and vented on Twitter. Source. Hilarious.
The media trolling is hilarious. That's just another example. I mean this war on memes with pepe is like some baby boomer trying to explain the internet.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/a2uQy4R.png)
This raised some important questions.
Why is there a frog standing directly behind Trump?
That’s Pepe. He’s a symbol associated with white supremacy.
Wait. Really? White supremacy?
That’s right.
Please explain.
Here’s the short version: Pepe is a cartoon frog who began his internet life as an innocent meme enjoyed by teenagers and pop stars alike.
But in recent months, Pepe’s been almost entirely co-opted by the white supremacists who call themselves the “alt-right.” They’ve decided to take back Pepe by adding swastikas and other symbols of anti-semitism and white supremacy.
“We basically mixed Pepe in with Nazi propaganda, etc. We built that association,” one prominent white supremacist told the Daily Beast.
It's still up on her website. The Deplorables.
The source is reported to be a twitter troll account
“I think the most ridiculous thing is that a random guy on the internet who trolled a journalist once is now a ‘prominent white supremacist.’ I mean, the only accurate part of that is the ‘white’ part,” Swift told The Daily Caller News Foundation. “And my Italian ancestry means that even that is disputed!”
Just that lead-in of, "Over the weekend, Donald Trump's son and one of his closest advisors posted an odd photo" is rich. Yeah, it's an expendables parody of your campaign's "basket of deplorables." But we're supposed to focus in on the racist frog of the memesters. I saw it before and assumed it would be taken down, just the narrative delusion of a serious commentary of a joke pic. But her campaign thinks this is another good attack on the alt-right or something, it's still up.
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On September 17 2016 02:56 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 02:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. That's not one issue. At all. Maybe the Muslim issue, but definitely not the birther issue. There are such things as American Muslims. I group them together because they are related and the implication is all in there. He's a Muslim born in Kenya, not an American Christian born in Hawaii like he says. Like the Muslim issue doesn't matter as much on its own as it does in combination with the birther issue. The two go together and all in all it's still an implicit accusation so it's not so clear cut that it was meant to be one but not the other.
Strongly disagree. The questioning of Obama's birthplace was to ask whether or not Obama could even legally be president. On the other hand, calling him a Muslim was to try and establish that: 1. He wasn't a Christian (and there is a huge number of Americans who would only vote for a Christian) 2. He is a Muslim "sympathizer" (i.e., he'd be against Israel and/or would defend the wrong sides of the conflicts in the Middle East). Basically, people were asking voters to make a moral claim about Obama's religion- "Do you really want to vote for a Muslim?"- rather than a legal claim of "Can Obama even be president?" We all know that it's legal for a Muslim to become president, but people were trying two different underhanded moves: the moral claim that a Muslim shouldn't be elected president, and the legal claim that a Kenyan can't be elected president. Either claim is bullshit since we know Obama is Christian and born in America, but while there might be overlap between the two groups that believe one or the other, implying Obama isn't a Christian isn't the same as implying that he wasn't born in America.
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On September 17 2016 01:51 xDaunt wrote:
Saying that it is a "lie" that Hillary started the birther movement is kinda like saying that it is a "lie" that Hillary did anything illegal with her emails. Her campaign repeatedly smeared Obama as being a Muslim/foreigner/other and drafted memos highlighting this strategy. To the extent that her campaign in 2008 was not explicitly responsible for the birther movement, the birther movement very clearly was the product of her supporters taking the Hillary campaign's attacks to the next level.
Long story short, while there's a conspiracy theory element to the claim that Hillary started the birther movement, it's not entirely divorced from reality. And I note that many of these "fact checks" on this claim omit what Hillary's campaign actually did.
Can you provide sources for these claims?
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On September 17 2016 03:37 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 03:24 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 03:15 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 03:00 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:58 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:50 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. Yes, but Drumpf is the one that gave it new life, a national stage and offered a 5 million dollar reward(to be donated to a charity) if someone could prove Obama was born in the US. Directly, himself. No one else. So in the world of blame for the Birther movement, we can say it started with some shitty Clinton supporters and staff. But Drumpf took the mantle and ran with it for public attention. And only when held down, kicking and screaming, did he finally admit that Obama was a US citizen. But Drumpf did not admit he was wrong. And he blamed Clinton, rather than admit his mistake. Sure, that much is all on Drumpf. I'm not defending his role in a petty witch hunt in the slightest - just providing some evidence to show that Clinton is not without blame for the existence of the issue in the first place. I'll blame the supporters and the staff member who sent out that photo until I see a direct email from Clinton saying "yes, send that out. We need to win Texas." Until then, this is just more Drumpf trying to shift the discussion away from him peddling a racist conspiracy theory for years to discredit Obama. I guess we need a few more email leaks to settle more matters that people care about. More seriously, my issue is mostly in people trying to overreach and absolve Hillary of any blame for her faults by comparison to Drumpf. It's like if Hillary were to kill 10 people her supporters would just say "well Drumpf killed 20 people so it's all fine since we only have the two candidates." No, that's not how it works. In this specific case, it is Drumpf who is deflecting blame on an issue, so I don't have all that much to say on the matter; I posted that article mostly so that we would have some reference. But that deflection issue comes up a lot so some minor commentary is in order. Drumpf basically told his supporters to attack protesters and he could cover their legal bills and people are still being attacked at Drumpf rallies since then. But here we are talking about a photo a Clinton staffer sent out 8 years ago. something something, cognitive disonance. Honestly if I was a Clinton supporter, I would give Drumpf supporters Hillary caused Birther and then by extension Drumpf is now responsible for literally every single reprehensible act his supporters have ever performed. Which makes Obamas birth issue practically a flash in the pan.
It took me a second there to see your extension had changed Trump's name in the entire quote/spoiler chain. I thought Plansix was still cracking that joke for a second there.
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On September 17 2016 03:11 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 02:58 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:50 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. Yes, but Trump is the one that gave it new life, a national stage and offered a 5 million dollar reward(to be donated to a charity) if someone could prove Obama was born in the US. Directly, himself. No one else. So in the world of blame for the Birther movement, we can say it started with some shitty Clinton supporters and staff. But Trump took the mantle and ran with it for public attention. And only when held down, kicking and screaming, did he finally admit that Obama was a US citizen. But Trump did not admit he was wrong. And he blamed Clinton, rather than admit his mistake. Sure, that much is all on Trump. I'm not defending his role in a petty witch hunt in the slightest - just providing some evidence to show that Clinton is not without blame for the existence of the issue in the first place. At no point in history did Clinton or anyone in her campaign accuse Obama of not being born in the U.S., or even hint that he wasn't. Period. There is no reason to muddy the waters and confuse two different issues. With regards to the Obama being a Muslim myth and Clinton's involvement, here's a politifact article addressing the issue.
Hillary and Bill said some racist stuff about Obama during the primary. On the Muslim thing, it's no surprise the fact checks leave off Hillary's Trumpian ending to her answer about him not being a Muslim "as far as I know".
She fed into the whole "other" argument like the other Republicans who were too cowardly to just say that it's preposterous and that it's absurd to even question. Further, it wouldn't matter if he was. Keep in mind this was when Hillary and Trump were still amiable. She didn't seem to have any problem with it until she was running against him.
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EPT
