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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On September 17 2016 03:55 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 03:37 Rebs wrote:On September 17 2016 03:24 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 03:15 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 03:00 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:58 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:50 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: [quote] Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. Yes, but Drumpf is the one that gave it new life, a national stage and offered a 5 million dollar reward(to be donated to a charity) if someone could prove Obama was born in the US. Directly, himself. No one else. So in the world of blame for the Birther movement, we can say it started with some shitty Clinton supporters and staff. But Drumpf took the mantle and ran with it for public attention. And only when held down, kicking and screaming, did he finally admit that Obama was a US citizen. But Drumpf did not admit he was wrong. And he blamed Clinton, rather than admit his mistake. Sure, that much is all on Drumpf. I'm not defending his role in a petty witch hunt in the slightest - just providing some evidence to show that Clinton is not without blame for the existence of the issue in the first place. I'll blame the supporters and the staff member who sent out that photo until I see a direct email from Clinton saying "yes, send that out. We need to win Texas." Until then, this is just more Drumpf trying to shift the discussion away from him peddling a racist conspiracy theory for years to discredit Obama. I guess we need a few more email leaks to settle more matters that people care about. More seriously, my issue is mostly in people trying to overreach and absolve Hillary of any blame for her faults by comparison to Drumpf. It's like if Hillary were to kill 10 people her supporters would just say "well Drumpf killed 20 people so it's all fine since we only have the two candidates." No, that's not how it works. In this specific case, it is Drumpf who is deflecting blame on an issue, so I don't have all that much to say on the matter; I posted that article mostly so that we would have some reference. But that deflection issue comes up a lot so some minor commentary is in order. Drumpf basically told his supporters to attack protesters and he could cover their legal bills and people are still being attacked at Drumpf rallies since then. But here we are talking about a photo a Clinton staffer sent out 8 years ago. something something, cognitive disonance. Honestly if I was a Clinton supporter, I would give Drumpf supporters Hillary caused Birther and then by extension Drumpf is now responsible for literally every single reprehensible act his supporters have ever performed. Which makes Obamas birth issue practically a flash in the pan. It took me a second there to see your extension had changed Drumpf's name in the entire quote/spoiler chain. I thought Plansix was still cracking that joke for a second there.
Yeah I didnt even know it did it, until someone pointed it out a few months ago. Templar I think,
Then I totally forgot and I dont give enough of a shit to remove it. Unless it really bothers someone.
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On September 17 2016 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 03:11 kwizach wrote:On September 17 2016 02:58 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:50 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. Yes, but Trump is the one that gave it new life, a national stage and offered a 5 million dollar reward(to be donated to a charity) if someone could prove Obama was born in the US. Directly, himself. No one else. So in the world of blame for the Birther movement, we can say it started with some shitty Clinton supporters and staff. But Trump took the mantle and ran with it for public attention. And only when held down, kicking and screaming, did he finally admit that Obama was a US citizen. But Trump did not admit he was wrong. And he blamed Clinton, rather than admit his mistake. Sure, that much is all on Trump. I'm not defending his role in a petty witch hunt in the slightest - just providing some evidence to show that Clinton is not without blame for the existence of the issue in the first place. At no point in history did Clinton or anyone in her campaign accuse Obama of not being born in the U.S., or even hint that he wasn't. Period. There is no reason to muddy the waters and confuse two different issues. With regards to the Obama being a Muslim myth and Clinton's involvement, here's a politifact article addressing the issue. Hillary and Bill said some racist stuff about Obama during the primary. On the Muslim thing, it's no surprise the fact checks leave off Hillary's Trumpian ending to her answer about him not being a Muslim "as far as I know".She fed into the whole "other" argument like the other Republicans who were too cowardly to just say that it's preposterous and that it's absurd to even question. Further, it wouldn't matter if he was. Keep in mind this was when Hillary and Trump were still amiable. She didn't seem to have any problem with it until she was running against him.
Still baffles me how one's religious faith is a massive political elephant in the United States, and that a non Christian is basically unelectable.
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On September 17 2016 04:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 17 2016 03:11 kwizach wrote:On September 17 2016 02:58 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:50 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. Yes, but Trump is the one that gave it new life, a national stage and offered a 5 million dollar reward(to be donated to a charity) if someone could prove Obama was born in the US. Directly, himself. No one else. So in the world of blame for the Birther movement, we can say it started with some shitty Clinton supporters and staff. But Trump took the mantle and ran with it for public attention. And only when held down, kicking and screaming, did he finally admit that Obama was a US citizen. But Trump did not admit he was wrong. And he blamed Clinton, rather than admit his mistake. Sure, that much is all on Trump. I'm not defending his role in a petty witch hunt in the slightest - just providing some evidence to show that Clinton is not without blame for the existence of the issue in the first place. At no point in history did Clinton or anyone in her campaign accuse Obama of not being born in the U.S., or even hint that he wasn't. Period. There is no reason to muddy the waters and confuse two different issues. With regards to the Obama being a Muslim myth and Clinton's involvement, here's a politifact article addressing the issue. Hillary and Bill said some racist stuff about Obama during the primary. On the Muslim thing, it's no surprise the fact checks leave off Hillary's Trumpian ending to her answer about him not being a Muslim "as far as I know".She fed into the whole "other" argument like the other Republicans who were too cowardly to just say that it's preposterous and that it's absurd to even question. Further, it wouldn't matter if he was. Keep in mind this was when Hillary and Trump were still amiable. She didn't seem to have any problem with it until she was running against him. Still baffles me how one's religious faith is a massive political elephant in the United States, and that a non Christian is basically unelectable.
Yep, reading Hillary's platform for every child to find their god-given potential gives me the creeps.
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On September 17 2016 02:28 xDaunt wrote:
Go Google "hillary clinton campaign turban photo 2008" and pick your source.
Christ you people are lazy.
EDIT: There's even a nice Huffpo article on the first page!
Just to be clear. You do realize that Muslims don't wear turbans, right?
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On September 17 2016 04:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 17 2016 03:11 kwizach wrote:On September 17 2016 02:58 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:50 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. Yes, but Trump is the one that gave it new life, a national stage and offered a 5 million dollar reward(to be donated to a charity) if someone could prove Obama was born in the US. Directly, himself. No one else. So in the world of blame for the Birther movement, we can say it started with some shitty Clinton supporters and staff. But Trump took the mantle and ran with it for public attention. And only when held down, kicking and screaming, did he finally admit that Obama was a US citizen. But Trump did not admit he was wrong. And he blamed Clinton, rather than admit his mistake. Sure, that much is all on Trump. I'm not defending his role in a petty witch hunt in the slightest - just providing some evidence to show that Clinton is not without blame for the existence of the issue in the first place. At no point in history did Clinton or anyone in her campaign accuse Obama of not being born in the U.S., or even hint that he wasn't. Period. There is no reason to muddy the waters and confuse two different issues. With regards to the Obama being a Muslim myth and Clinton's involvement, here's a politifact article addressing the issue. Hillary and Bill said some racist stuff about Obama during the primary. On the Muslim thing, it's no surprise the fact checks leave off Hillary's Trumpian ending to her answer about him not being a Muslim "as far as I know".She fed into the whole "other" argument like the other Republicans who were too cowardly to just say that it's preposterous and that it's absurd to even question. Further, it wouldn't matter if he was. Keep in mind this was when Hillary and Trump were still amiable. She didn't seem to have any problem with it until she was running against him. Still baffles me how one's religious faith is a massive political elephant in the United States, and that a non Christian is basically unelectable.
That's likely to change the way things have been heading, yet not baffling considering the pattern of history and just how much news Kennedy generated for being Catholic not all that long ago.
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It is only surprising if you are not exposed to the Midwest, south or the Bible belt in any way.
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On September 17 2016 04:46 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 02:28 xDaunt wrote:
Go Google "hillary clinton campaign turban photo 2008" and pick your source.
Christ you people are lazy.
EDIT: There's even a nice Huffpo article on the first page! Just to be clear. You do realize that Muslims don't wear turbans, right?
Tell that to Hillary.
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On September 17 2016 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 03:11 kwizach wrote:On September 17 2016 02:58 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:50 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. Yes, but Trump is the one that gave it new life, a national stage and offered a 5 million dollar reward(to be donated to a charity) if someone could prove Obama was born in the US. Directly, himself. No one else. So in the world of blame for the Birther movement, we can say it started with some shitty Clinton supporters and staff. But Trump took the mantle and ran with it for public attention. And only when held down, kicking and screaming, did he finally admit that Obama was a US citizen. But Trump did not admit he was wrong. And he blamed Clinton, rather than admit his mistake. Sure, that much is all on Trump. I'm not defending his role in a petty witch hunt in the slightest - just providing some evidence to show that Clinton is not without blame for the existence of the issue in the first place. At no point in history did Clinton or anyone in her campaign accuse Obama of not being born in the U.S., or even hint that he wasn't. Period. There is no reason to muddy the waters and confuse two different issues. With regards to the Obama being a Muslim myth and Clinton's involvement, here's a politifact article addressing the issue. Hillary and Bill said some racist stuff about Obama during the primary. O n the Muslim thing, it's no surprise the fact checks leave off Hillary's Trumpian ending to her answer about him not being a Muslim "as far as I know".She fed into the whole "other" argument like the other Republicans who were too cowardly to just say that it's preposterous and that it's absurd to even question. Further, it wouldn't matter if he was. Keep in mind this was when Hillary and Trump were still amiable. She didn't seem to have any problem with it until she was running against him.
How the hell can you fact check the issue and leave out the turban photo as well? This is why I never pay attention to Politifact or any of those other sites. They're a bunch of liberal/democrat hacks who pose as the arbiters of fairness.
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On September 17 2016 05:00 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 17 2016 03:11 kwizach wrote:On September 17 2016 02:58 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:50 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. Yes, but Trump is the one that gave it new life, a national stage and offered a 5 million dollar reward(to be donated to a charity) if someone could prove Obama was born in the US. Directly, himself. No one else. So in the world of blame for the Birther movement, we can say it started with some shitty Clinton supporters and staff. But Trump took the mantle and ran with it for public attention. And only when held down, kicking and screaming, did he finally admit that Obama was a US citizen. But Trump did not admit he was wrong. And he blamed Clinton, rather than admit his mistake. Sure, that much is all on Trump. I'm not defending his role in a petty witch hunt in the slightest - just providing some evidence to show that Clinton is not without blame for the existence of the issue in the first place. At no point in history did Clinton or anyone in her campaign accuse Obama of not being born in the U.S., or even hint that he wasn't. Period. There is no reason to muddy the waters and confuse two different issues. With regards to the Obama being a Muslim myth and Clinton's involvement, here's a politifact article addressing the issue. Hillary and Bill said some racist stuff about Obama during the primary. O n the Muslim thing, it's no surprise the fact checks leave off Hillary's Trumpian ending to her answer about him not being a Muslim "as far as I know".She fed into the whole "other" argument like the other Republicans who were too cowardly to just say that it's preposterous and that it's absurd to even question. Further, it wouldn't matter if he was. Keep in mind this was when Hillary and Trump were still amiable. She didn't seem to have any problem with it until she was running against him. How the hell can you fact check the issue and leave out the turban photo as well? This is why I never pay attention to Politifact or any of those other sites. They're a bunch of liberal/democrat hacks who pose as the arbiters of fairness.
Reality does have a liberal bias, so I can see how that would offend you.
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Yep, that is what happens when you manipulate the press to your advantage. They refuse to report on things unless its under their terms. Trumps aggression towards the press is ever evolving.
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On September 17 2016 04:56 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 04:46 Acrofales wrote:On September 17 2016 02:28 xDaunt wrote:
Go Google "hillary clinton campaign turban photo 2008" and pick your source.
Christ you people are lazy.
EDIT: There's even a nice Huffpo article on the first page! Just to be clear. You do realize that Muslims don't wear turbans, right? Tell that to Hillary.
Well, in the photo in question, he's wearing a qalansuwa, which is worn by Muslims. But turbans are worn by Sikhs.
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Well, this stuff is really spilling to Canada and to my city with this super embarrassing incident yesterday:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/mount-royal-donald-trump-hat-make-america-great-1.3764642
The woman in this video is the social change we are fighting again. Would have preferred MRU to comment on the incident, but at least they made their position very clear by saying: "Mount Royal University respects individuals who exercise their constitutionally-protected right to freedom of expression."
We are here to stay, Donald Trump all the way.
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On September 17 2016 03:53 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 02:56 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. That's not one issue. At all. Maybe the Muslim issue, but definitely not the birther issue. There are such things as American Muslims. I group them together because they are related and the implication is all in there. He's a Muslim born in Kenya, not an American Christian born in Hawaii like he says. Like the Muslim issue doesn't matter as much on its own as it does in combination with the birther issue. The two go together and all in all it's still an implicit accusation so it's not so clear cut that it was meant to be one but not the other. Strongly disagree. The questioning of Obama's birthplace was to ask whether or not Obama could even legally be president. On the other hand, calling him a Muslim was to try and establish that: 1. He wasn't a Christian (and there is a huge number of Americans who would only vote for a Christian) 2. He is a Muslim "sympathizer" (i.e., he'd be against Israel and/or would defend the wrong sides of the conflicts in the Middle East). Basically, people were asking voters to make a moral claim about Obama's religion- "Do you really want to vote for a Muslim?"- rather than a legal claim of "Can Obama even be president?" We all know that it's legal for a Muslim to become president, but people were trying two different underhanded moves: the moral claim that a Muslim shouldn't be elected president, and the legal claim that a Kenyan can't be elected president. Either claim is bullshit since we know Obama is Christian and born in America, but while there might be overlap between the two groups that believe one or the other, implying Obama isn't a Christian isn't the same as implying that he wasn't born in America.
If it were a genuine concern that he wasn't legally allowed to be president, they would have brought the matter to court and been done with it. No, it was a matter of throwing shade on Obama to get people to question whether or not they should vote for him as a result of allegations that he is a Muslim/Kenyan. Was any of this really about genuine eligibility? Fuck no, it was just a smear campaign. Same with claiming him to be a secret Muslim.
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On September 17 2016 05:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 05:00 xDaunt wrote:On September 17 2016 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 17 2016 03:11 kwizach wrote:On September 17 2016 02:58 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:50 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: Barack Obama's campaign team today accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff of mounting a desperate dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has had to spend much of the campaign stressing he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrassa.
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.
The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder. Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. Yes, but Trump is the one that gave it new life, a national stage and offered a 5 million dollar reward(to be donated to a charity) if someone could prove Obama was born in the US. Directly, himself. No one else. So in the world of blame for the Birther movement, we can say it started with some shitty Clinton supporters and staff. But Trump took the mantle and ran with it for public attention. And only when held down, kicking and screaming, did he finally admit that Obama was a US citizen. But Trump did not admit he was wrong. And he blamed Clinton, rather than admit his mistake. Sure, that much is all on Trump. I'm not defending his role in a petty witch hunt in the slightest - just providing some evidence to show that Clinton is not without blame for the existence of the issue in the first place. At no point in history did Clinton or anyone in her campaign accuse Obama of not being born in the U.S., or even hint that he wasn't. Period. There is no reason to muddy the waters and confuse two different issues. With regards to the Obama being a Muslim myth and Clinton's involvement, here's a politifact article addressing the issue. Hillary and Bill said some racist stuff about Obama during the primary. O n the Muslim thing, it's no surprise the fact checks leave off Hillary's Trumpian ending to her answer about him not being a Muslim "as far as I know".She fed into the whole "other" argument like the other Republicans who were too cowardly to just say that it's preposterous and that it's absurd to even question. Further, it wouldn't matter if he was. Keep in mind this was when Hillary and Trump were still amiable. She didn't seem to have any problem with it until she was running against him. How the hell can you fact check the issue and leave out the turban photo as well? This is why I never pay attention to Politifact or any of those other sites. They're a bunch of liberal/democrat hacks who pose as the arbiters of fairness. Reality does have a liberal bias, so I can see how that would offend you.
In the real world, Hillary Clinton's campaign circulated this photograph in 2008 while running against Obama...
![[image loading]](https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/02/25/0225_obamaturban_460x276.jpg?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=01c9db97b650079eab2f98babb7f8999)
Obama certainly knew what Hillary was trying to do:
Barack Obama's campaign team accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff yesterday of mounting a dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
David Plouffe, Obama's campaign manager, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has spent much of the campaign emphasising he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrasa.
Source.
But hey, none of this is relevant to whether the Hillary camp was guilty of trying to smear Obama as a Muslim in 2008, right? It's an absolute disgrace that Politifact left it out when factchecking the issue.
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On September 17 2016 05:19 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 05:01 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 05:00 xDaunt wrote:On September 17 2016 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 17 2016 03:11 kwizach wrote:On September 17 2016 02:58 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:50 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: [quote] Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. Yes, but Trump is the one that gave it new life, a national stage and offered a 5 million dollar reward(to be donated to a charity) if someone could prove Obama was born in the US. Directly, himself. No one else. So in the world of blame for the Birther movement, we can say it started with some shitty Clinton supporters and staff. But Trump took the mantle and ran with it for public attention. And only when held down, kicking and screaming, did he finally admit that Obama was a US citizen. But Trump did not admit he was wrong. And he blamed Clinton, rather than admit his mistake. Sure, that much is all on Trump. I'm not defending his role in a petty witch hunt in the slightest - just providing some evidence to show that Clinton is not without blame for the existence of the issue in the first place. At no point in history did Clinton or anyone in her campaign accuse Obama of not being born in the U.S., or even hint that he wasn't. Period. There is no reason to muddy the waters and confuse two different issues. With regards to the Obama being a Muslim myth and Clinton's involvement, here's a politifact article addressing the issue. Hillary and Bill said some racist stuff about Obama during the primary. O n the Muslim thing, it's no surprise the fact checks leave off Hillary's Trumpian ending to her answer about him not being a Muslim "as far as I know".She fed into the whole "other" argument like the other Republicans who were too cowardly to just say that it's preposterous and that it's absurd to even question. Further, it wouldn't matter if he was. Keep in mind this was when Hillary and Trump were still amiable. She didn't seem to have any problem with it until she was running against him. How the hell can you fact check the issue and leave out the turban photo as well? This is why I never pay attention to Politifact or any of those other sites. They're a bunch of liberal/democrat hacks who pose as the arbiters of fairness. Reality does have a liberal bias, so I can see how that would offend you. In the real world, Hillary Clinton's campaign circulated this photograph in 2008 while running against Obama... Obama certainly knew what Hillary was trying to do: Show nested quote +Barack Obama's campaign team accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff yesterday of mounting a dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
David Plouffe, Obama's campaign manager, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has spent much of the campaign emphasising he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrasa. Source. But hey, none of this is relevant to whether the Hillary camp was guilty of trying to smear Obama as a Muslim in 2008, right? It's an absolute disgrace that Politifact left it out when factchecking the issue.
Did you lose your self-credited reading skills? Did I deny the existence of the photo in my statement or in any of my statements on this board?
http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/general/383301-us-politics-mega-thread?page=5011#100214
Lets travel back in time when you stopped reading and see what I really said.
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On September 17 2016 05:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 05:19 xDaunt wrote:On September 17 2016 05:01 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 05:00 xDaunt wrote:On September 17 2016 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 17 2016 03:11 kwizach wrote:On September 17 2016 02:58 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:50 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. Yes, but Trump is the one that gave it new life, a national stage and offered a 5 million dollar reward(to be donated to a charity) if someone could prove Obama was born in the US. Directly, himself. No one else. So in the world of blame for the Birther movement, we can say it started with some shitty Clinton supporters and staff. But Trump took the mantle and ran with it for public attention. And only when held down, kicking and screaming, did he finally admit that Obama was a US citizen. But Trump did not admit he was wrong. And he blamed Clinton, rather than admit his mistake. Sure, that much is all on Trump. I'm not defending his role in a petty witch hunt in the slightest - just providing some evidence to show that Clinton is not without blame for the existence of the issue in the first place. At no point in history did Clinton or anyone in her campaign accuse Obama of not being born in the U.S., or even hint that he wasn't. Period. There is no reason to muddy the waters and confuse two different issues. With regards to the Obama being a Muslim myth and Clinton's involvement, here's a politifact article addressing the issue. Hillary and Bill said some racist stuff about Obama during the primary. O n the Muslim thing, it's no surprise the fact checks leave off Hillary's Trumpian ending to her answer about him not being a Muslim "as far as I know".She fed into the whole "other" argument like the other Republicans who were too cowardly to just say that it's preposterous and that it's absurd to even question. Further, it wouldn't matter if he was. Keep in mind this was when Hillary and Trump were still amiable. She didn't seem to have any problem with it until she was running against him. How the hell can you fact check the issue and leave out the turban photo as well? This is why I never pay attention to Politifact or any of those other sites. They're a bunch of liberal/democrat hacks who pose as the arbiters of fairness. Reality does have a liberal bias, so I can see how that would offend you. In the real world, Hillary Clinton's campaign circulated this photograph in 2008 while running against Obama... Obama certainly knew what Hillary was trying to do: Barack Obama's campaign team accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff yesterday of mounting a dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
David Plouffe, Obama's campaign manager, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has spent much of the campaign emphasising he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrasa. Source. But hey, none of this is relevant to whether the Hillary camp was guilty of trying to smear Obama as a Muslim in 2008, right? It's an absolute disgrace that Politifact left it out when factchecking the issue. Did you lose your self-credited reading skills? Did I deny the existence of the photo in my statement or in any of my statements on this board? http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/general/383301-us-politics-mega-thread?page=5011#100214Lets travel back in time when you stopped reading and see what I really said.
I'll just let your previous shitpost speak for itself:
On September 17 2016 05:01 Plansix wrote:
Reality does have a liberal bias, so I can see how that would offend you.
You'd have been better off saying, "Yes, xDaunt, has a point that Politifact is a joke as a fact checker." But no, that's clearly a bridge way too far for you.
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On September 17 2016 05:25 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 05:22 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 05:19 xDaunt wrote:On September 17 2016 05:01 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 05:00 xDaunt wrote:On September 17 2016 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 17 2016 03:11 kwizach wrote:On September 17 2016 02:58 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:50 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:
[quote]
Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. Yes, but Trump is the one that gave it new life, a national stage and offered a 5 million dollar reward(to be donated to a charity) if someone could prove Obama was born in the US. Directly, himself. No one else. So in the world of blame for the Birther movement, we can say it started with some shitty Clinton supporters and staff. But Trump took the mantle and ran with it for public attention. And only when held down, kicking and screaming, did he finally admit that Obama was a US citizen. But Trump did not admit he was wrong. And he blamed Clinton, rather than admit his mistake. Sure, that much is all on Trump. I'm not defending his role in a petty witch hunt in the slightest - just providing some evidence to show that Clinton is not without blame for the existence of the issue in the first place. At no point in history did Clinton or anyone in her campaign accuse Obama of not being born in the U.S., or even hint that he wasn't. Period. There is no reason to muddy the waters and confuse two different issues. With regards to the Obama being a Muslim myth and Clinton's involvement, here's a politifact article addressing the issue. Hillary and Bill said some racist stuff about Obama during the primary. O n the Muslim thing, it's no surprise the fact checks leave off Hillary's Trumpian ending to her answer about him not being a Muslim "as far as I know".She fed into the whole "other" argument like the other Republicans who were too cowardly to just say that it's preposterous and that it's absurd to even question. Further, it wouldn't matter if he was. Keep in mind this was when Hillary and Trump were still amiable. She didn't seem to have any problem with it until she was running against him. How the hell can you fact check the issue and leave out the turban photo as well? This is why I never pay attention to Politifact or any of those other sites. They're a bunch of liberal/democrat hacks who pose as the arbiters of fairness. Reality does have a liberal bias, so I can see how that would offend you. In the real world, Hillary Clinton's campaign circulated this photograph in 2008 while running against Obama... Obama certainly knew what Hillary was trying to do: Barack Obama's campaign team accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff yesterday of mounting a dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
David Plouffe, Obama's campaign manager, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has spent much of the campaign emphasising he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrasa. Source. But hey, none of this is relevant to whether the Hillary camp was guilty of trying to smear Obama as a Muslim in 2008, right? It's an absolute disgrace that Politifact left it out when factchecking the issue. Did you lose your self-credited reading skills? Did I deny the existence of the photo in my statement or in any of my statements on this board? http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/general/383301-us-politics-mega-thread?page=5011#100214Lets travel back in time when you stopped reading and see what I really said. I'll just let your previous shitpost speak for itself: Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 05:01 Plansix wrote:
Reality does have a liberal bias, so I can see how that would offend you.
Are you not the guy who constantly whines about people attacking the source, rather than the substance of the article? Does that only apply to articles you like and not the fact checking sites that confront you with things you don't agree with? Maybe if you really had the self awareness you constantly boast about so often, you would have realized how amusing your attack on Politifact was.
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On September 17 2016 05:19 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 05:01 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 05:00 xDaunt wrote:On September 17 2016 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 17 2016 03:11 kwizach wrote:On September 17 2016 02:58 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:50 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 17 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2016 02:31 LegalLord wrote:Here is something: [quote] Source People forgot how nasty that primary was towards the end. But it also doesn't prove shit about the birther movement. Unless we want to make a bunch of mental leaps and remove all personal responsibility from teh discussion, then sure. Sure. Sometimes the primaries get nasty enough that you have to say things you will have to take back later. Still, it does show that Hillary's campaign in 2008 dirtied its hands with the Muslim/birther issue, if indirectly. Yes, but Trump is the one that gave it new life, a national stage and offered a 5 million dollar reward(to be donated to a charity) if someone could prove Obama was born in the US. Directly, himself. No one else. So in the world of blame for the Birther movement, we can say it started with some shitty Clinton supporters and staff. But Trump took the mantle and ran with it for public attention. And only when held down, kicking and screaming, did he finally admit that Obama was a US citizen. But Trump did not admit he was wrong. And he blamed Clinton, rather than admit his mistake. Sure, that much is all on Trump. I'm not defending his role in a petty witch hunt in the slightest - just providing some evidence to show that Clinton is not without blame for the existence of the issue in the first place. At no point in history did Clinton or anyone in her campaign accuse Obama of not being born in the U.S., or even hint that he wasn't. Period. There is no reason to muddy the waters and confuse two different issues. With regards to the Obama being a Muslim myth and Clinton's involvement, here's a politifact article addressing the issue. Hillary and Bill said some racist stuff about Obama during the primary. O n the Muslim thing, it's no surprise the fact checks leave off Hillary's Trumpian ending to her answer about him not being a Muslim "as far as I know".She fed into the whole "other" argument like the other Republicans who were too cowardly to just say that it's preposterous and that it's absurd to even question. Further, it wouldn't matter if he was. Keep in mind this was when Hillary and Trump were still amiable. She didn't seem to have any problem with it until she was running against him. How the hell can you fact check the issue and leave out the turban photo as well? This is why I never pay attention to Politifact or any of those other sites. They're a bunch of liberal/democrat hacks who pose as the arbiters of fairness. Reality does have a liberal bias, so I can see how that would offend you. In the real world, Hillary Clinton's campaign circulated this photograph in 2008 while running against Obama... Obama certainly knew what Hillary was trying to do: Show nested quote +Barack Obama's campaign team accused Hillary Clinton's beleaguered staff yesterday of mounting a dirty tricks operation by circulating a picture of him in African dress, feeding into false claims on US websites that he is a Muslim.
David Plouffe, Obama's campaign manager, described it as "the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election". Obama has spent much of the campaign emphasising he is a Christian not a Muslim and did not study at a madrasa. Source. But hey, none of this is relevant to whether the Hillary camp was guilty of trying to smear Obama as a Muslim in 2008, right? It's an absolute disgrace that Politifact left it out when factchecking the issue.
Close, but no cigar. This is the Obama campaign accusing Clinton's campaign of pushing the story. This is no different than other times when a candidate blames a rival candidate for something the rival candidates supporters are doing. It's the same thing as Clinton hating on Bernie for all the edgelord berniebros thinking they are overthrowing capitalism by making shitty signs and yelling at the sky.
Until Clinton herself or Clinton's campaign can be seen questioning Obama's citizenship, there's nothing.
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Did you even read the Guardian article? Why not link the original Drudge post instead because the Guardian article isn't helping your case. It has a denial you can't disprove by the Clinton campaign. And the turban article doesn't get you the critical leap you missing: that the photo is birtherism. Where does the article show the HRC campaign questioning where Obama was born? You can't show that.
"I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."
...
The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website yesterday. The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/26/barackobama.uselections2008
If you care about the facts, actual birtherism go going earlier by serial Illinois political candidate Andy Martin.
In fact, birtherism, as it’s been called, reportedly began with innuendo by serial Illinois political candidate Andy Martin, who painted Obama as a closet Muslim in 2004. That spiraled into a concerted effort by conspiracy theorists to raise doubts about Obama’s birthplace and religion — and essentially paint him as un-American.
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/birther-movement-founder-trump-clinton-228304
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EPT
