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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 07 2016 16:59 GMT
#98341
Don't work Xdaunt, we don't have any such delusions when it comes to you. The benefit of the doubt isn't even an option. We learned by watching you.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-07 16:59:40
September 07 2016 16:59 GMT
#98342
On September 08 2016 01:50 xDaunt wrote:
Ok, let's try again:

Everyone agrees that Trump's Mexico trip has been a huge political success for Trump?

The way I see it is:

Trump and nieto say they had a good talk on TV.

Trump says Mexico will pay for the wall.

Nieto says they won't pay for the wall.

What is really gained here? If anything, it looks like they just talked past each other and then shook hands. I don't see what he gained.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22696 Posts
September 07 2016 16:59 GMT
#98343
On September 08 2016 01:57 xDaunt wrote:
Serves me right for giving any of y'all the benefit of the doubt.

What did you expect?
2 grown men held a decent press conference and then as soon as they shook hands and departed began to throw mud at one-another.
How is that a successful foreign visit from a prospective President?

I ask again, what did you think makes it successful?

It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
September 07 2016 17:02 GMT
#98344
Looks to me like it was a mix of good and bad that amounts to a wash for trump.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Rebs
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Pakistan10726 Posts
September 07 2016 17:02 GMT
#98345
On September 08 2016 01:59 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2016 01:57 xDaunt wrote:
Serves me right for giving any of y'all the benefit of the doubt.

What did you expect?
2 grown men held a decent press conference and then as soon as they shook hands and departed began to throw mud at one-another.
How is that a successful foreign visit from a prospective President?

I ask again, what did you think makes it successful?



You lost the benefit of the doubt. Its to late too explain it to you now. Obviously.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-07 17:04:25
September 07 2016 17:03 GMT
#98346
On September 08 2016 01:56 Nevuk wrote:
BTW arguing about definitions is pretty much capitulation in an online argument. (According to a source p6 loves, Scott Adams)

Yeah, well I would expect that from a scrub like Adams. Consensus about terms and definitions is the cornerstone of academic discussion and allows for deeper understanding and communication. Asking someone to better define a subjective term expected in any discussion academia. Of course some keyboard warriors like Adams hate it because it locks them in by forcing them to refine their points and prevents them from back tracking.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44428 Posts
September 07 2016 17:05 GMT
#98347
On September 08 2016 01:59 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2016 01:50 xDaunt wrote:
Ok, let's try again:

Everyone agrees that Trump's Mexico trip has been a huge political success for Trump?

The way I see it is:

Trump and nieto say they had a good talk on TV.

Trump says Mexico will pay for the wall.

Nieto says they won't pay for the wall.

What is really gained here? If anything, it looks like they just talked past each other and then shook hands. I don't see what he gained.

Nieto got to use Trump as a prop while looking strong to his people and refusing to pay for the wall. It's one thing to say "it's not going to happen" in a general sense, it's quite another to invite the guy over then walk out of the meeting saying "it's not going to happen". Trump's presence and subsequent rejection made Nieto look better. It'll also make it harder for Mexico to back down should Trump win, by publicly disavowing the wall like that it burns the potential bridge to retreat over. Trump let himself get humiliated as a prop to strengthen Nieto but at least it also undermined any hope of pushing his policies.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-07 17:09:21
September 07 2016 17:07 GMT
#98348
Here's the unambiguously correct answer to my question: Trump's Mexico visit was a huge political success for him, which should be blindingly obvious to everyone given 1) his subsequent and continued improvement in the polls, and 2) Mexicans understand the event gave Trump a huge boost, resulting in Nieto being universally panned (and now his finance minister resigning).

EDIT: well, I guess it is unclear whether the finance minister resigned because of the Trump visit, but the article does make it clear that Mexicans see Nieto as a tool.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-07 17:13:54
September 07 2016 17:08 GMT
#98349
That you claim it to be unambiguously correct shows that you are not really discussing, given how much large the average size is of reasonable interpretations of events.
So I find you're not arguing in good faith.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
September 07 2016 17:08 GMT
#98350
Arguing about definitions is a bad thing if you're trying to nail someone on semantics, instead of the more valid reason to ask someone to clarify their position.

Adams is in general a weird armchair philosopher with bizarre and unfeasible ideas. He should stick to Dilbert.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22696 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-07 17:09:17
September 07 2016 17:09 GMT
#98351
On September 08 2016 02:07 xDaunt wrote:
Here's the unambiguously correct answer to my question: Trump's Mexico visit was a huge political success for him, which should be blindingly obvious to everyone given 1) his subsequent and continued improvement in the polls, and 2) Mexicans understand the event gave Trump a huge boost, resulting in Nieto being universally panned (and now his finance minister resigning).

classic case of 'the street is wet, therefor it must be raining'
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 07 2016 17:10 GMT
#98352
Pretty sure that isn't "correct", but it is an perspective on the visit to Mexico.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-07 17:18:44
September 07 2016 17:10 GMT
#98353
Trump's poll improvement also correlates with Clinton Foundation email releases and his messaging discipline.

Mexicans pan Nieto for giving Trump even a chance at a boost or an appearance of legitimacy w/r/t diplomacy with Mexico. That doesn't reach the level of "Mexicans are correct that Trump got a boost and possesses credibility in diplomacy".
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 07 2016 17:12 GMT
#98354
On September 08 2016 02:10 Doodsmack wrote:
Trump's poll improvement also correlates with Clinton Foundation email releases and his messaging discipline.

Mexicans pan Nieto for giving Trump even a chance at a boost or an appearance of legitimacy w/r/t diplomacy with Mexico.

I feel the race is going to tighten right up until the debates. But maybe Clinton will hold at 4 points.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
September 07 2016 17:13 GMT
#98355
...why is it good for Trump for nieto to get in trouble for meeting with trump?
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-07 17:16:40
September 07 2016 17:14 GMT
#98356
It does raise the spectre of the dumb TV Americans who account for changes in horserace polls though. Trump is a TV American's president if there ever was one. So that is a very dangerous and scary thing, yes.

Hopefully Clinton's total ad war will counteract it. Clinton gets the commercials, Trump gets the on-air time.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
September 07 2016 17:16 GMT
#98357
On September 08 2016 01:43 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2016 01:39 xDaunt wrote:
On September 08 2016 01:18 farvacola wrote:
MEXICO CITY—Mexican Finance Minister Luis Videgaray, seen as the right-hand man to President Enrique Peña Nieto, has resigned and will be replaced by a former finance chief José Antonio Meade.

Mr. Videgaray’s resignation comes less than a week after a controversial visit to Mexico by U.S. presidential candidate Donald Trump, which was widely seen as a humiliation for Mexico and its president. Multiple local media reports said the invitation to Mr. Trump was Mr. Videgaray’s idea, a claim disputed by him as well as Mr. Peña Nieto.

Mr. Videgaray, a former investment banker and state finance official, won't take a public post for the time being, Finance Ministry spokeswoman Claudia Algorri said.

The economist with a doctorate from MIT was widely seen as the brains behind the Mexican president and the driving force behind a series of high-profile reforms in the past few years that includes opening Mexico’s closed oil industry to private investment for the first time since 1938.

“He’s leaving with a superb track record on reforms, and will be remembered as one of the main architects of the reform efforts going back to 2013,” said Alonso Cervera, Credit Suisse’s chief Latin America economist.


Mr. Videgaray’s departure will be a blow to Mr. Peña Nieto, who has relied on Mr. Videgaray as his leading adviser since the president rose to national prominence as governor of the State of Mexico, said Jesus Silva Herzog, a prominent Mexican political analyst.

But in the past two years, Mr. Videgaray has come under fire for tepid growth in the Mexican economy, even as the government ran slightly bigger deficits and added to public debt. He also rankled Mexico’s business class by hiking taxes. While he was widely admired outside Mexico, at home he was criticized for being arrogant.

The 47-year-old Mr. Meade has degrees in law and economics, and a doctorate in economics from Yale University and has a long history of working in government.

He was finance minister from 2011 to 2012 under former President Felipe Calderón, and had previously been Mr. Calderon’s energy minister. Under Mr. Peña Nieto he has been foreign minister and minister for social development.

“His previous tenure was solid, without being extraordinary. He’s seen as very orthodox, which is a good thing given rising debt and the need for a budget adjustment,” said Oscar Vera, a leading Mexican economist.

Mr. Meade’s return to a key post in Mexican politics could make him a possible contender for the presidency in 2018 for the ruling Institutional Revolutionary Party, analysts said.

For Mr. Videgaray, 48, the end came only days after a surprise visit to Mexico by Mr. Trump last week. The visit was widely seen as a disaster for Mr. Peña Nieto, who was criticized for not demanding Mr. Trump apologize for his outspoken remarks over the past 18 months about Mexico and Mexican immigrants to the U.S.

For his part, Mr. Trump has claimed the visit was a great success, and repeated his claim that Mexico will pay for an eventual border wall between both countries.


Mexico’s Finance Minister Resigns in Wake of Trump Visit


Looks like he isn't interested in making America (and Mexico) great again.

So are we all in agreement now that Trump's Mexico trip was a huge success?

Given that my definition of "success" doesn't include torpedoing the political careers of leaders of neighboring countries, nope.

Wasn't it sort of a desperate attempt by Nieto anyways - his approval ratings were like 27% or something, absurdly low. Basically his career was already basically over even without Trump's help
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 07 2016 17:18 GMT
#98358
On September 08 2016 02:13 Mohdoo wrote:
...why is it good for Trump for nieto to get in trouble for meeting with trump?

It's not the fact that Nieto is in trouble that benefits Trump. What matters is why Nieto is in trouble. He's in trouble because he has single-handedly given Trump an image of legitimacy, credibility, and seriousness as a potential head of state. As far as Mexicans are concerned, Nieto has laid down the first brick in Trump's wall.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
September 07 2016 17:20 GMT
#98359
On September 08 2016 02:18 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2016 02:13 Mohdoo wrote:
...why is it good for Trump for nieto to get in trouble for meeting with trump?

he has single-handedly given Trump an image of legitimacy, credibility, and seriousness as a potential head of state.


Your argument assumes its conclusion. The Mexican people are not necessarily correct that Trump was given those things.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18874 Posts
September 07 2016 17:22 GMT
#98360
On September 08 2016 02:16 Nevuk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2016 01:43 farvacola wrote:
On September 08 2016 01:39 xDaunt wrote:
On September 08 2016 01:18 farvacola wrote:
MEXICO CITY—Mexican Finance Minister Luis Videgaray, seen as the right-hand man to President Enrique Peña Nieto, has resigned and will be replaced by a former finance chief José Antonio Meade.

Mr. Videgaray’s resignation comes less than a week after a controversial visit to Mexico by U.S. presidential candidate Donald Trump, which was widely seen as a humiliation for Mexico and its president. Multiple local media reports said the invitation to Mr. Trump was Mr. Videgaray’s idea, a claim disputed by him as well as Mr. Peña Nieto.

Mr. Videgaray, a former investment banker and state finance official, won't take a public post for the time being, Finance Ministry spokeswoman Claudia Algorri said.

The economist with a doctorate from MIT was widely seen as the brains behind the Mexican president and the driving force behind a series of high-profile reforms in the past few years that includes opening Mexico’s closed oil industry to private investment for the first time since 1938.

“He’s leaving with a superb track record on reforms, and will be remembered as one of the main architects of the reform efforts going back to 2013,” said Alonso Cervera, Credit Suisse’s chief Latin America economist.


Mr. Videgaray’s departure will be a blow to Mr. Peña Nieto, who has relied on Mr. Videgaray as his leading adviser since the president rose to national prominence as governor of the State of Mexico, said Jesus Silva Herzog, a prominent Mexican political analyst.

But in the past two years, Mr. Videgaray has come under fire for tepid growth in the Mexican economy, even as the government ran slightly bigger deficits and added to public debt. He also rankled Mexico’s business class by hiking taxes. While he was widely admired outside Mexico, at home he was criticized for being arrogant.

The 47-year-old Mr. Meade has degrees in law and economics, and a doctorate in economics from Yale University and has a long history of working in government.

He was finance minister from 2011 to 2012 under former President Felipe Calderón, and had previously been Mr. Calderon’s energy minister. Under Mr. Peña Nieto he has been foreign minister and minister for social development.

“His previous tenure was solid, without being extraordinary. He’s seen as very orthodox, which is a good thing given rising debt and the need for a budget adjustment,” said Oscar Vera, a leading Mexican economist.

Mr. Meade’s return to a key post in Mexican politics could make him a possible contender for the presidency in 2018 for the ruling Institutional Revolutionary Party, analysts said.

For Mr. Videgaray, 48, the end came only days after a surprise visit to Mexico by Mr. Trump last week. The visit was widely seen as a disaster for Mr. Peña Nieto, who was criticized for not demanding Mr. Trump apologize for his outspoken remarks over the past 18 months about Mexico and Mexican immigrants to the U.S.

For his part, Mr. Trump has claimed the visit was a great success, and repeated his claim that Mexico will pay for an eventual border wall between both countries.


Mexico’s Finance Minister Resigns in Wake of Trump Visit


Looks like he isn't interested in making America (and Mexico) great again.

So are we all in agreement now that Trump's Mexico trip was a huge success?

Given that my definition of "success" doesn't include torpedoing the political careers of leaders of neighboring countries, nope.

Wasn't it sort of a desperate attempt by Nieto anyways - his approval ratings were like 27% or something, absurdly low. Basically his career was already basically over even without Trump's help

Trump controversy aside, it is not easy to be a politician in Mexico. That much is clear, particularly with regards to Nieto.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
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