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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 4920

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9118 Posts
September 07 2016 17:56 GMT
#98381
On September 08 2016 02:46 farvacola wrote:
So, can we now all agree that Trump literally has no idea how the government and military interact?

But he sure knows that the fearmongering worked and talking of increasing military spending helps him consolidate republican votes

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]
CannonsNCarriers
Profile Joined April 2010
United States638 Posts
September 07 2016 17:56 GMT
#98382
On September 08 2016 02:44 xDaunt wrote:
So here is the list of US Military proposals that Trump released today:

Show nested quote +
PROPOSAL: Immediately after taking office, Mr. Trump will ask the generals to present a plan within 30 days to defeat and destroy ISIS.

PROPOSAL: Mr. Trump will ask Congress to fully eliminate the defense sequester and will submit a new budget to rebuild our military as soon as he assumes office.

PROPOSAL: Mr. Trump will build an active Army of around 540,000, as the Army’s chief of staff has said he needs.

PROPOSAL: Mr. Trump will build a Marine Corps based on 36 battalions, which the Heritage Foundation notes is the minimum needed to deal with major contingencies.

PROPOSAL: Mr. Trump will build a Navy approaching 350 surface ships and submarines, as recommended by the bipartisan National Defense Panel.

PROPOSAL: Mr. Trump will build an Air Force of at least 1,200 fighter aircraft, which the Heritage Foundation has shown to be needed to execute current missions.

PROPOSAL: Mr. Trump will seek to develop a state of the art missile defense system.

PROPOSAL: Mr. Trump will modernize our nation’s naval cruisers to provide Ballistic Missile Defense capabilities.

PROPOSAL: Mr. Trump will enforce all classification rules, and enforce all laws relating to the handling of classified information.

PROPOSAL: One of Mr. Trump’s first commands after taking office will be asking the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and all relevant federal departments, to conduct a thorough review of United States cyber defenses and identify all vulnerabilities – in our power grid, our communications systems, and all vital infrastructure.


As Thiel said, Trump is opposed to small government and has jettisoned small government politics from the Republican party. Reversing sequester and moving spending back to pre-sequester levels would be a good start, but that laundry list is bonkers. 350 ships? How? With what shipyards? We make Virginias/Burkes/LCSs at capacity now. 1200 fighters? Which fighters? The F35 isn't ready and the lines to make the F22 don't exist anymore. Put BMD on the Ticos? Really? 2 billion dollar upgrades for 25 year old ships would be maddeningly wasteful. 36 marine battalions? With what recruits will be build this army? We need volunteers for that.
Dun tuch my cheezbrgr
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
September 07 2016 17:56 GMT
#98383
On September 08 2016 02:05 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2016 01:59 Mohdoo wrote:
On September 08 2016 01:50 xDaunt wrote:
Ok, let's try again:

Everyone agrees that Trump's Mexico trip has been a huge political success for Trump?

The way I see it is:

Trump and nieto say they had a good talk on TV.

Trump says Mexico will pay for the wall.

Nieto says they won't pay for the wall.

What is really gained here? If anything, it looks like they just talked past each other and then shook hands. I don't see what he gained.

Nieto got to use Trump as a prop while looking strong to his people and refusing to pay for the wall. It's one thing to say "it's not going to happen" in a general sense, it's quite another to invite the guy over then walk out of the meeting saying "it's not going to happen". Trump's presence and subsequent rejection made Nieto look better. It'll also make it harder for Mexico to back down should Trump win, by publicly disavowing the wall like that it burns the potential bridge to retreat over. Trump let himself get humiliated as a prop to strengthen Nieto but at least it also undermined any hope of pushing his policies.


While I lean towards agreeing with this assessment, I'm curious how the finance minister resigning fits into this. Is it coincident, convenient or inconvenient?
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 07 2016 17:57 GMT
#98384
On September 08 2016 02:55 Acrofales wrote:
Now that we're on the topic, how do we reconcile point number 1 with Trump being a "pacifist"?

He's been pretty clear from the get-go that ISIS has to go because he sees their existence as being unacceptable and too threatening.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-07 17:58:47
September 07 2016 17:58 GMT
#98385
On September 08 2016 02:52 xDaunt wrote:
You guys do understand that Point Number 1 doesn't mean that the military has to present a plan that destroys ISIS in 30 days of combat, right? He said he wants to see a plan to destroy ISIS 30 days after he takes office.

You do know that the military likely has any number of plans to fight ISIS in varying ways, right? These options exist already, there is just no public will to engage those plans. Trump isn’t asking for anything we don’t already have. It shows he has no idea how the military works or how to fight the terrorist groups.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
CobaltBlu
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States919 Posts
September 07 2016 17:59 GMT
#98386
Does he think the US military doesn't have plans about ISIS already? Why does he want to increase the size of the military? Planning to fight with someone? How does he plan to pay for expanding the military for no reason?
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17983 Posts
September 07 2016 17:59 GMT
#98387
On September 08 2016 02:57 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2016 02:55 Acrofales wrote:
Now that we're on the topic, how do we reconcile point number 1 with Trump being a "pacifist"?

He's been pretty clear from the get-go that ISIS has to go because he sees their existence as being unacceptable and too threatening.

Ahhh, and of course he needs the giant army just for that too. It is finally making sense.

Step 1. Build giant army
Step 2. Eradicate ISIS
Step 3. Retreat behind wall and stop playing world police. Keep giant army on standby in case ISIS reappears.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18825 Posts
September 07 2016 18:00 GMT
#98388
On September 08 2016 02:59 CobaltBlu wrote:
Does he think the US military doesn't have plans about ISIS already? Why does he want to increase the size of the military? Planning to fight with someone? How does he plan to pay for expanding the military for no reason?

Clearly, we need to reinstate the draft.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42653 Posts
September 07 2016 18:01 GMT
#98389
On September 08 2016 02:58 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2016 02:52 xDaunt wrote:
You guys do understand that Point Number 1 doesn't mean that the military has to present a plan that destroys ISIS in 30 days of combat, right? He said he wants to see a plan to destroy ISIS 30 days after he takes office.

You do know that the military likely has any number of plans to fight ISIS in varying ways, right? These options exist already, there is just no public will to engage those plans. Trump isn’t asking for anything we don’t already have. It shows he has no idea how the military works or how to fight the terrorist groups.

Barry Soetoro instructed the military not to look into plans to attack ISIS and instead focus all the energies on how to disarm the American patriots because he wants to protect his Muslim brothers.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-07 18:04:48
September 07 2016 18:03 GMT
#98390
On September 08 2016 02:52 xDaunt wrote:
You guys do understand that Point Number 1 doesn't mean that the military has to present a plan that destroys ISIS in 30 days of combat, right? He said he wants to see a plan to destroy ISIS 30 days after he takes office.


Pretty sure we already have a plan. Actually, we probably have like a bajillion of them. The military isn't just sitting around jerking themselves and polishing their buttons. But Trump will have the best plans, believe me.

To be particularly partisan, this looks like a transparent attempt at pandering in advance of the CiC town hall tonight. I call it transpandering.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 07 2016 18:08 GMT
#98391
Clearly this new plan is going to be the magic plan that will destroy ISIS forever. A terrorist group that only wants to kill westerners and everyone in the region opposes. So the best plan is to deliver America citizens to them on a platter.

And they exist in occupied regions of Syria with civilians that have no ability to resist them. I bet that won’t be messy at all. But I am sure Trump’s plan will work way better and won’t be Iraq Part II, No Allies in the Area! And he will cut taxes for the rich while he does this.

This is looking more like Bush 2.0 than ever before.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42653 Posts
September 07 2016 18:11 GMT
#98392
You know I might quite like a Trump presidency. It'd be hilarious and I could probably convert all my hoarded pre-tax dollars to post-tax at 0% in his term. If it got too bad I could fuck off back to Europe and take advantage of the weak pound to set myself up pretty nicely. Political satire would be of the highest quality and the first of the great meme wars would emerge between the alt-right and the old conservatives. We'd all get to say Merry Christmas on every holiday without fail and we wouldn't have to bake cakes for anyone.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 07 2016 18:12 GMT
#98393
On September 08 2016 03:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2016 02:52 xDaunt wrote:
You guys do understand that Point Number 1 doesn't mean that the military has to present a plan that destroys ISIS in 30 days of combat, right? He said he wants to see a plan to destroy ISIS 30 days after he takes office.


Pretty sure we already have a plan. Actually, we probably have like a bajillion of them. The military isn't just sitting around jerking themselves and polishing their buttons. But Trump will have the best plans, believe me.

To be particularly partisan, this looks like a transparent attempt at pandering in advance of the CiC town hall tonight. I call it transpandering.


I'm sure that there are numerous plans that exist, any number of which could be selected and then made current to account for current conditions on the ground, intelligence, and global deployments. There's nothing unreasonable about this first point, and I find it amusing that so many are attacking it.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-07 18:17:33
September 07 2016 18:16 GMT
#98394
It's dumb cuz we all know it's easy to militarily defeat ISIS, the question is how to handle the aftermath so things actually become stable. And on how much you want to spend.
also the amount of general ignorance he's shown on such topic's; and that he's planning to spend even more money on military, as if we don't have enough. Just shows an incredible lack of understanding (well, except of pandering politics, which he is decent at, as are many).
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 07 2016 18:17 GMT
#98395
On September 08 2016 03:16 zlefin wrote:
It's dumb cuz we all know it's easy to militarily defeat ISIS, the question is how to handle the aftermath so things actually become stable. And on how much you want to spend.

And if you listen to Trump's speech (and not just read the bullet points), he very clearly understands that the solution is not just military in nature and talks about that.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-07 18:19:21
September 07 2016 18:17 GMT
#98396
On September 08 2016 03:17 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2016 03:16 zlefin wrote:
It's dumb cuz we all know it's easy to militarily defeat ISIS, the question is how to handle the aftermath so things actually become stable. And on how much you want to spend.

And if you listen to Trump's speech (and not just read the bullet points), he very clearly understands that the solution is not just military in nature and talks about that.

do you have a link?
you can't expect me to go off info you never provided; I look at hwat was brought into and maybe what was linked in the thread.

it also doesn't change that he doens't understand we already have plans that could defeat isis, and it's pretty darn easy to do so anyways.
and all the other points about his wasteful spending.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 07 2016 18:19 GMT
#98397
On September 08 2016 03:17 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2016 03:17 xDaunt wrote:
On September 08 2016 03:16 zlefin wrote:
It's dumb cuz we all know it's easy to militarily defeat ISIS, the question is how to handle the aftermath so things actually become stable. And on how much you want to spend.

And if you listen to Trump's speech (and not just read the bullet points), he very clearly understands that the solution is not just military in nature and talks about that.

do you have a link?

I'm not sure that it's been posted yet. He just gave it this morning.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 07 2016 18:19 GMT
#98398
People attack hollow claims that someone is going to find a solution to a complex problem in 30 days.

I will give the Sectary of Education 30 days provide me with a plan to make the US the number 1 in education.

I will give congress 30 days to provide me with a balanced budget that cuts taxes and increased infrastructure spending.

I will give the Department of Justice 30 days to provide me with a plan to stop the rising murder rates in cities.


Trump plans. Promises for simple solutions to complex problems.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-07 18:21:41
September 07 2016 18:21 GMT
#98399
On September 08 2016 03:19 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2016 03:17 zlefin wrote:
On September 08 2016 03:17 xDaunt wrote:
On September 08 2016 03:16 zlefin wrote:
It's dumb cuz we all know it's easy to militarily defeat ISIS, the question is how to handle the aftermath so things actually become stable. And on how much you want to spend.

And if you listen to Trump's speech (and not just read the bullet points), he very clearly understands that the solution is not just military in nature and talks about that.

do you have a link?

I'm not sure that it's been posted yet. He just gave it this morning.

well, I can't respond to something that's unavailable.
until then I'll have to stick to mocking trump for his general foolishness.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 07 2016 18:22 GMT
#98400
On September 08 2016 03:17 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2016 03:17 xDaunt wrote:
On September 08 2016 03:16 zlefin wrote:
It's dumb cuz we all know it's easy to militarily defeat ISIS, the question is how to handle the aftermath so things actually become stable. And on how much you want to spend.

And if you listen to Trump's speech (and not just read the bullet points), he very clearly understands that the solution is not just military in nature and talks about that.

you can't expect me to go off info you never provided; I look at hwat was brought into and maybe what was linked in the thread.

it also doesn't change that he doens't understand we already have plans that could defeat isis, and it's pretty darn easy to do so anyways.
and all the other points about his wasteful spending.


So let me get this straight. It's unfair for me to presume that you're up to speed on the issue, but it's perfectly okay for you to throw out baseless assumptions like the underlined above?
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