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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 461

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-20 18:55:57
September 20 2013 18:54 GMT
#9201
On September 21 2013 03:01 Melliflue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2013 02:29 Sermokala wrote:
America gets an artificially strong currency with it being the only currency people actually use for stuff that matters apparently and it has the same results as germany has.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Germany went for more austerity than the US ever did, and the US did do some fiscal stimulus. According to Keynsian economics the US recovery (in this situation) would be better, and as you said the US has done equally well despite the comparative strength of their currency, which surely suggests that US policy was better than German policy.

Show nested quote +
But creating hate tword a group of people is just wrong no matter how "justified" it is. Whichhunting is really fun until you wake up the next day and realized you burned a few people at the stake. You can't be for gay rights and then be for class warfare, its just hypocritical.

I never said I hated the rich. I wasn't witch-hunting. I wasn't engaged in class warfare. I don't know where you got that idea from. I merely said the rich are not being altruistic when they pay someone to do a job. Likewise the employee is not doing the job to benefit the employer. The employee does it for the money. I don't understand your reaction to what I said.


Germany benefited from the profligacy of its southern poor neighbors who are the major importers of its tech goods. Despite the much vaunted German middle class, with its emphasis on family-owned, long-term oriented companies employed by highly skilled employees, the only reason it was able to come out the strongest member of the EU was because it enforced austerity at home while continuing to sell on credit to the neighbors it now excoriates as lazy spendthrifts. When you have a tightly knit economy, like the EU had/has, you can enforce austerity at home for a while and see results, because you are still reaping in the benefits of your neighbors' "stimulus."
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-20 18:58:58
September 20 2013 18:56 GMT
#9202
On September 21 2013 03:33 Jormundr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2013 03:25 kwizach wrote:
On September 21 2013 03:08 Jormundr wrote:
On September 21 2013 02:38 kwizach wrote:
On September 21 2013 02:29 Sermokala wrote:
On September 21 2013 02:18 kwizach wrote:
On September 21 2013 00:40 Jormundr wrote:
[...] while we completely ignore the runaway trains which are social security and defense spending.

How is social security a "runaway train", exactly? I'll agree that it needs to be tweeked on the long term, but as it is currently its fund will be able to pay every benefit until 2033 (and 3/4s of those from then on).


SS operates as, was created as, and can only work as a giant ponzi scheame that keeps going as when more people are paying in then the system is paying out. It being an okay thing to fix at some point doens't change its fundamental flaws.

Ah, the good old "Ponzi scheme" flawed comparison. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with social security that would prevent it from going on past 2033 and on the long-term after some tweeks.

And why should we give a shit that it is going to last 20 more years? We won't be receiving the same treatment in 40.

That depends on plenty of factors and certainly does not make social security a "runaway train".

The fact that the SSA itself has predicted more money going out than going in does. How the hell does that get 'tweaked'?

By changing revenue formulas, for example (raising taxes...). We have two decades to do that. Call it a runaway snail if you want.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
Melliflue
Profile Joined October 2012
United Kingdom1389 Posts
September 20 2013 19:34 GMT
#9203
On September 21 2013 03:54 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2013 03:01 Melliflue wrote:
On September 21 2013 02:29 Sermokala wrote:
America gets an artificially strong currency with it being the only currency people actually use for stuff that matters apparently and it has the same results as germany has.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Germany went for more austerity than the US ever did, and the US did do some fiscal stimulus. According to Keynsian economics the US recovery (in this situation) would be better, and as you said the US has done equally well despite the comparative strength of their currency, which surely suggests that US policy was better than German policy.

But creating hate tword a group of people is just wrong no matter how "justified" it is. Whichhunting is really fun until you wake up the next day and realized you burned a few people at the stake. You can't be for gay rights and then be for class warfare, its just hypocritical.

I never said I hated the rich. I wasn't witch-hunting. I wasn't engaged in class warfare. I don't know where you got that idea from. I merely said the rich are not being altruistic when they pay someone to do a job. Likewise the employee is not doing the job to benefit the employer. The employee does it for the money. I don't understand your reaction to what I said.


Germany benefited from the profligacy of its southern poor neighbors who are the major importers of its tech goods. Despite the much vaunted German middle class, with its emphasis on family-owned, long-term oriented companies employed by highly skilled employees, the only reason it was able to come out the strongest member of the EU was because it enforced austerity at home while continuing to sell on credit to the neighbors it now excoriates as lazy spendthrifts. When you have a tightly knit economy, like the EU had/has, you can enforce austerity at home for a while and see results, because you are still reaping in the benefits of your neighbors' "stimulus."

I was trying to argue that austerity had been a bad idea, and that Germany is doing well now despite its austerity, not because of it. This was in response to Sermokala trying to argue that Europe is more left-leaning than the US but is having a worse recovery (if it can even be called a recovery) than the US. My point is that Europe is suffering because of the austerity, which is something the Republicans are pushing for in the US, so it is unfair to blame the poor economy in Europe on left-leaning politics.

(Side question: How does "spendthrift" mean spending lots of money when "thrift" means avoiding unnecessarily spending money? They seem to be opposites but I don't know why.)
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 20 2013 19:36 GMT
#9204
On September 21 2013 03:47 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2013 01:17 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On September 20 2013 16:06 IgnE wrote:
With the amount of new coal plants going online between now and 2025, it's already too late. We are going to be dealing with some serious climate change.

Isn't that to replace older (and dirtier) coal plants? Or are you referencing the rest of the world?


No, it's to benefit from the glut in the coal market and take advantage of "clean coal" technologies from the last decade. Some of them may be replacing older plants, but many of them aren't.

I thought we were burning less coal recently?

On September 21 2013 03:56 kwizach wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2013 03:33 Jormundr wrote:
On September 21 2013 03:25 kwizach wrote:
On September 21 2013 03:08 Jormundr wrote:
On September 21 2013 02:38 kwizach wrote:
On September 21 2013 02:29 Sermokala wrote:
On September 21 2013 02:18 kwizach wrote:
On September 21 2013 00:40 Jormundr wrote:
[...] while we completely ignore the runaway trains which are social security and defense spending.

How is social security a "runaway train", exactly? I'll agree that it needs to be tweeked on the long term, but as it is currently its fund will be able to pay every benefit until 2033 (and 3/4s of those from then on).


SS operates as, was created as, and can only work as a giant ponzi scheame that keeps going as when more people are paying in then the system is paying out. It being an okay thing to fix at some point doens't change its fundamental flaws.

Ah, the good old "Ponzi scheme" flawed comparison. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with social security that would prevent it from going on past 2033 and on the long-term after some tweeks.

And why should we give a shit that it is going to last 20 more years? We won't be receiving the same treatment in 40.

That depends on plenty of factors and certainly does not make social security a "runaway train".

The fact that the SSA itself has predicted more money going out than going in does. How the hell does that get 'tweaked'?

By changing revenue formulas, for example (raising taxes...). We have two decades to do that. Call it a runaway snail if you want.

I like that analogy

Maybe we should broaden the revenue base for SS? Why only tax wages? Not exactly a plentiful revenue source these days...
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
September 20 2013 19:45 GMT
#9205
On September 21 2013 04:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2013 03:47 IgnE wrote:
On September 21 2013 01:17 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On September 20 2013 16:06 IgnE wrote:
With the amount of new coal plants going online between now and 2025, it's already too late. We are going to be dealing with some serious climate change.

Isn't that to replace older (and dirtier) coal plants? Or are you referencing the rest of the world?


No, it's to benefit from the glut in the coal market and take advantage of "clean coal" technologies from the last decade. Some of them may be replacing older plants, but many of them aren't.

I thought we were burning less coal recently?

Show nested quote +
On September 21 2013 03:56 kwizach wrote:
On September 21 2013 03:33 Jormundr wrote:
On September 21 2013 03:25 kwizach wrote:
On September 21 2013 03:08 Jormundr wrote:
On September 21 2013 02:38 kwizach wrote:
On September 21 2013 02:29 Sermokala wrote:
On September 21 2013 02:18 kwizach wrote:
On September 21 2013 00:40 Jormundr wrote:
[...] while we completely ignore the runaway trains which are social security and defense spending.

How is social security a "runaway train", exactly? I'll agree that it needs to be tweeked on the long term, but as it is currently its fund will be able to pay every benefit until 2033 (and 3/4s of those from then on).


SS operates as, was created as, and can only work as a giant ponzi scheame that keeps going as when more people are paying in then the system is paying out. It being an okay thing to fix at some point doens't change its fundamental flaws.

Ah, the good old "Ponzi scheme" flawed comparison. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with social security that would prevent it from going on past 2033 and on the long-term after some tweeks.

And why should we give a shit that it is going to last 20 more years? We won't be receiving the same treatment in 40.

That depends on plenty of factors and certainly does not make social security a "runaway train".

The fact that the SSA itself has predicted more money going out than going in does. How the hell does that get 'tweaked'?

By changing revenue formulas, for example (raising taxes...). We have two decades to do that. Call it a runaway snail if you want.

I like that analogy

Maybe we should broaden the revenue base for SS? Why only tax wages? Not exactly a plentiful revenue source these days...

We only burn less coal because of recent ventures into clean-burning styrofoam.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
Livelovedie
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States492 Posts
September 20 2013 20:24 GMT
#9206
On September 21 2013 04:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2013 03:47 IgnE wrote:
On September 21 2013 01:17 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On September 20 2013 16:06 IgnE wrote:
With the amount of new coal plants going online between now and 2025, it's already too late. We are going to be dealing with some serious climate change.

Isn't that to replace older (and dirtier) coal plants? Or are you referencing the rest of the world?


No, it's to benefit from the glut in the coal market and take advantage of "clean coal" technologies from the last decade. Some of them may be replacing older plants, but many of them aren't.

I thought we were burning less coal recently?

Show nested quote +
On September 21 2013 03:56 kwizach wrote:
On September 21 2013 03:33 Jormundr wrote:
On September 21 2013 03:25 kwizach wrote:
On September 21 2013 03:08 Jormundr wrote:
On September 21 2013 02:38 kwizach wrote:
On September 21 2013 02:29 Sermokala wrote:
On September 21 2013 02:18 kwizach wrote:
On September 21 2013 00:40 Jormundr wrote:
[...] while we completely ignore the runaway trains which are social security and defense spending.

How is social security a "runaway train", exactly? I'll agree that it needs to be tweeked on the long term, but as it is currently its fund will be able to pay every benefit until 2033 (and 3/4s of those from then on).


SS operates as, was created as, and can only work as a giant ponzi scheame that keeps going as when more people are paying in then the system is paying out. It being an okay thing to fix at some point doens't change its fundamental flaws.

Ah, the good old "Ponzi scheme" flawed comparison. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with social security that would prevent it from going on past 2033 and on the long-term after some tweeks.

And why should we give a shit that it is going to last 20 more years? We won't be receiving the same treatment in 40.

That depends on plenty of factors and certainly does not make social security a "runaway train".

The fact that the SSA itself has predicted more money going out than going in does. How the hell does that get 'tweaked'?

By changing revenue formulas, for example (raising taxes...). We have two decades to do that. Call it a runaway snail if you want.

I like that analogy

Maybe we should broaden the revenue base for SS? Why only tax wages? Not exactly a plentiful revenue source these days...

The source is quite plentiful its just capped.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
September 20 2013 20:31 GMT
#9207
I've always frowned upon any significant action based on projections 10+ years out. Not only are they questionable in methodology, but there's no real way we can predict what's going to happen 10+ years from now. Meanwhile, we have a real crisis on our laps that we have some damn good data on, along with some other damn good experiments we could run, that would be helpful today.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 20 2013 21:05 GMT
#9208
In his nine months as a U.S. senator, Texas Republican Ted Cruz has managed to infuriate members of his own party by deriding them as cowards who like to cast meaningless votes while pretending they're fighting the good fight for conservatives.

"There are a lot of politicians in Washington who love empty symbolic votes. It's been one of my biggest surprises in the Senate, I guess I wasn't cynical enough when I arrived here," Cruz said in late July at the Heritage Foundation. "I didn't realize how many Republicans love to have a fig leaf vote where they can go and tell their constituents, 'see I voted to do the right thing.' The House has voted what 39, 40, 41 times I can't keep track to repeal Obamacare. Those votes were by and large empty symbolic votes that had zero chance of passing."
The Texas freshman has fired these shots from a comfortable position: a senator representing a deep-red state and member of the minority whose support is not essential to moving any legislation. He's insulated from the responsibilities of governing; he can freely vote the way he wants (he almost never votes for final passage of a bill) and talk smack about his colleagues without having to take real risks.

But now the freshman senator and his fellow Obamacare defunders, most notably Sen. Mike Lee (R-UT), have found themselves in an unthinkable position. The House granted their wish on Friday and passed legislation that eliminates funding for Obamacare in a bill to keep the government funded, sending the battle to the Senate. That means that for once, these senators have have to put their votes where their mouths are. Their first instinct was to concede defeat and slink away in the Senate, but after a furious reaction from House Republicans, they feel renewed pressure to walk the walk.

"I hope that every Senate Republican will stand together and oppose cloture on the bill in order to keep the House bill intact and not let Harry Reid add Obamacare funding back in," Cruz said in a statement Friday, referring to the GOP's ability to filibuster.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
sc2superfan101
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
3583 Posts
September 20 2013 21:40 GMT
#9209
On September 20 2013 20:17 Paljas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2013 09:57 DoubleReed wrote:
Seriously, why do people have a problem with me labeling the Republicans the Bad Guys?

Imperialism, capitalism

God, what I would give for an Imperialist/Capitalist President.
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
sc2superfan101
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
3583 Posts
September 20 2013 21:49 GMT
#9210
On September 21 2013 06:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
In his nine months as a U.S. senator, Texas Republican Ted Cruz has managed to infuriate members of his own party by deriding them as cowards who like to cast meaningless votes while pretending they're fighting the good fight for conservatives.

"There are a lot of politicians in Washington who love empty symbolic votes. It's been one of my biggest surprises in the Senate, I guess I wasn't cynical enough when I arrived here," Cruz said in late July at the Heritage Foundation. "I didn't realize how many Republicans love to have a fig leaf vote where they can go and tell their constituents, 'see I voted to do the right thing.' The House has voted what 39, 40, 41 times I can't keep track to repeal Obamacare. Those votes were by and large empty symbolic votes that had zero chance of passing."
The Texas freshman has fired these shots from a comfortable position: a senator representing a deep-red state and member of the minority whose support is not essential to moving any legislation. He's insulated from the responsibilities of governing; he can freely vote the way he wants (he almost never votes for final passage of a bill) and talk smack about his colleagues without having to take real risks.

But now the freshman senator and his fellow Obamacare defunders, most notably Sen. Mike Lee (R-UT), have found themselves in an unthinkable position. The House granted their wish on Friday and passed legislation that eliminates funding for Obamacare in a bill to keep the government funded, sending the battle to the Senate. That means that for once, these senators have have to put their votes where their mouths are. Their first instinct was to concede defeat and slink away in the Senate, but after a furious reaction from House Republicans, they feel renewed pressure to walk the walk.

"I hope that every Senate Republican will stand together and oppose cloture on the bill in order to keep the House bill intact and not let Harry Reid add Obamacare funding back in," Cruz said in a statement Friday, referring to the GOP's ability to filibuster.


Source

For a different perspective:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/359007/ted-cruz-punches-back-robert-costa

Of course, Cruz’s acknowledgement of the near-impossibility of passing a defunding bill through the Democratic-controlled Senate is an accurate reading of political reality. But House Republicans didn’t care; they were apoplectic with Cruz not only for laying the responsibility for defunding on them, but for making them seem weak. “If Cruz doesn’t help us in the Senate to pass a defunding bill, we’ll end up having to pass a normal CR,” complains a veteran House Republican. “It’ll be pathetic, but I expect him to slam us for it.”

House insiders say a handful of House Republicans cursed Cruz in the cloakroom on Wednesday, and a leadership source says angry e-mails were exchanged among GOP staffers who consider Cruz to be a charlatan. “Cruz keeps raising conservatives’ hopes, and then, when we give him what he wants, he doesn’t have a plan to follow through,” an aide fumes. “He’s an amateur.” Another aide says, “Nancy Pelosi is more well-liked around here.”


At the end of the day, Cruz is right. He's in the minority. It's the House that we control and it's the House where things are going to have to be done. The fact that they are whining about being the ones who have to do it is very telling of how honest they were when they said they would stop Obamacare.
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42578 Posts
September 20 2013 21:58 GMT
#9211
On September 21 2013 06:40 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2013 20:17 Paljas wrote:
On September 20 2013 09:57 DoubleReed wrote:
Seriously, why do people have a problem with me labeling the Republicans the Bad Guys?

Imperialism, capitalism

God, what I would give for an Imperialist/Capitalist President.

Honestly our relationship with China has a great deal of resemblance to that with trading partners in the imperial era. You find a place with an awful lot of a valuable resource you can use (in China's case mainly people) and a friendly regime that'll let you exploit that resource. Financiers then invest in building the infrastructure and trading links to exploit that resource making themselves, and the local despots who secure their investment rich. Troubles only occur when the despot can no longer keep their shit together due to the people getting tired of it (see South America) or gets so outrageously oppressive that the financiers get bad press for it (see Africa). As long as they're discreetly oppressive we will happily arm their regime, finance them and help keep them in charge while they, in turn, give us access to their stuff. Countries getting shaded in on the map is a last resort when you run out of potential despots, life is easier for everyone involved if you can find someone from the area to keep the status quo going while you and them make a lot of money. It is no coincidence that the Chinese elites send their children to school in the United Kingdom, any more than the generation of Oxbridge graduates who ran the Middle Eastern dictatorships happened by chance. China is perhaps the greatest success story of western economic imperialism, the reason we don't hear about it is because, outside of Tiananmen Square, they're very good at keeping their shit together.

Imperialism is alive and with us. The idea that it was sticking flags into beaches and claiming places completely misunderstands the nature of the beast.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-20 22:41:16
September 20 2013 22:40 GMT
#9212
On September 21 2013 00:10 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
@ Jormundr: I don't think raising government spending to 100% of GDP is much of a long term stimulus either.
@ Danglars: I can appreciate the desire to reform welfare, but if that's what the GOP is intending I don't see it in their current legislation. Maybe I'm missing something (if so point it out), but even if that's the case it means that they aren't communicating their intentions / plans well enough with the public.

How about some bigger cost of living adjustments? Rural red state Republicans can experience a fall in welfare payments and urban blue state Democrats can experience a rise.

From the Daily Caller,
WASHINGTON — The House voted to cut nearly $40 billion from the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, or food stamps, over a period 10 years on Thursday.

House Republican’s Nutrition Reform and Work Opportunity Act of 2013 passed largely along party lines on a vote of 217 to 210.

The billion dollar cuts to the program — which has ballooned in participation and doubled in cost since 2008 to nearly $80 billion annually — are achieved through reforms such as reducing waivers for work requirements for able-bodied adults without dependents, tightening eligibility requirements like categorical eligibility (a policy allowing states to determine SNAP eligibility through participation in other welfare programs) and closing loopholes.

The nutrition title represents the second portion of the farm bill, which was split into two separate bills when a comprehensive farm bill failed to pass the House over the summer (in large part due to disputed over the cuts to the program). The cuts to SNAP this time, however, were twice as aggressive.

In July, the House passed the first portion of the traditional farm bill, a stripped down bill dealing just with farm programs.

“In the real world, we measure success by results,” Indiana Republican Rep. Marlin Stutzman said on the House floor arguing in favor of the bill. “It’s time for Washington to measure success by how many families are lifted out of poverty and helped back on their feet, not by how much Washington bureaucrats spend year after year.”

source
Let me know if you see any bits of reform in there. Historically, politicians have always been packing the popular bill (farm bill) with extra spending measures to ensure passage. This time they were each tried on their own merits. How feel you, Jonny the Economist, about the current state of SNAP in the country? You already basically know I want it less of a dependency trap and more real help to needy families.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-20 23:30:18
September 20 2013 23:29 GMT
#9213
Excellent Ezra Klein article concerning Boehner's leadership:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/20/john-boehners-congress-is-a-train-wreck/?wpisrc=nl_wnkpm

Also if the United States does default on it's debt and the world tumbles down into a further and worse financial crisis(Europe will implode, Asia and the Chinese Real Estate Glut will also implode), the GOP will lose the House. And will never come close to regaining the Senate in the current elected officials lifetime, that is if they manage to survive as a Political Party.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
September 20 2013 23:31 GMT
#9214
On September 21 2013 06:40 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2013 20:17 Paljas wrote:
On September 20 2013 09:57 DoubleReed wrote:
Seriously, why do people have a problem with me labeling the Republicans the Bad Guys?

Imperialism, capitalism

God, what I would give for an Imperialist/Capitalist President.


Can't think of one who hasn't met that criteria
sc2superfan101
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
3583 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-21 00:10:07
September 21 2013 00:07 GMT
#9215
On September 21 2013 06:58 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2013 06:40 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On September 20 2013 20:17 Paljas wrote:
On September 20 2013 09:57 DoubleReed wrote:
Seriously, why do people have a problem with me labeling the Republicans the Bad Guys?

Imperialism, capitalism

God, what I would give for an Imperialist/Capitalist President.

Honestly our relationship with China has a great deal of resemblance to that with trading partners in the imperial era. You find a place with an awful lot of a valuable resource you can use (in China's case mainly people) and a friendly regime that'll let you exploit that resource. Financiers then invest in building the infrastructure and trading links to exploit that resource making themselves, and the local despots who secure their investment rich. Troubles only occur when the despot can no longer keep their shit together due to the people getting tired of it (see South America) or gets so outrageously oppressive that the financiers get bad press for it (see Africa). As long as they're discreetly oppressive we will happily arm their regime, finance them and help keep them in charge while they, in turn, give us access to their stuff. Countries getting shaded in on the map is a last resort when you run out of potential despots, life is easier for everyone involved if you can find someone from the area to keep the status quo going while you and them make a lot of money. It is no coincidence that the Chinese elites send their children to school in the United Kingdom, any more than the generation of Oxbridge graduates who ran the Middle Eastern dictatorships happened by chance. China is perhaps the greatest success story of western economic imperialism, the reason we don't hear about it is because, outside of Tiananmen Square, they're very good at keeping their shit together.

Imperialism is alive and with us. The idea that it was sticking flags into beaches and claiming places completely misunderstands the nature of the beast.

China is the kind of friend you have because you need them. The kind of Imperialism that works is one where even your friends recognize the fact that you're the one in charge. China works with us, sure, but let's not have any illusions about how they feel concerning the future. They want to be a super-power and they want to be a legitimate rival to the US, and that is absolutely unacceptable from an Imperialist POV. Look at how China was treated during the era of Western Imperialism and you'll see a lot less equality in the relationship. Economic Imperialism is only one side of the coin, no more or less important than the much more physical Political Imperialism. When you're top-dog you can't let the younger pups have their own way for too long. Slap down the challengers early and you get a much better situation in the pack.

Sticking flags into beaches and claiming places is what allows for control, and it is control, not resources, that is important to the Imperialist. Too much emphasis has been placed on the monetary gains of the Empires, not enough on the vast amounts of money they spent on making the illusion of control a reality. The Islamic radicals called the US a "paper tiger" for a reason, and it's because all the economic prosperity in the world is useless if you don't have the military or the national will to back it up.

On September 21 2013 08:31 Roe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2013 06:40 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On September 20 2013 20:17 Paljas wrote:
On September 20 2013 09:57 DoubleReed wrote:
Seriously, why do people have a problem with me labeling the Republicans the Bad Guys?

Imperialism, capitalism

God, what I would give for an Imperialist/Capitalist President.


Can't think of one who hasn't met that criteria

Did we turn Iraq into a colony?

There's your answer.
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
September 21 2013 00:13 GMT
#9216
Imperialism isn't only colony building. It's forcing your way (culturally, economically, politically, etc..) onto another nation.
Skilledblob
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany3392 Posts
September 21 2013 00:15 GMT
#9217
On September 21 2013 09:07 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Did we turn Iraq into a colony?

There's your answer.


who controls the oil fields now? There you got your answer.
sc2superfan101
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
3583 Posts
September 21 2013 00:22 GMT
#9218
On September 21 2013 09:13 Roe wrote:
Imperialism isn't only colony building. It's forcing your way (culturally, economically, politically, etc..) onto another nation.

And what countries have we done this to?

Colony building is one of the best ways of forcing the issue. If Iraq and Afghanistan are our benchmarks than we've done a pretty piss-poor job at building our empire so far.


On September 21 2013 09:15 Skilledblob wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2013 09:07 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Did we turn Iraq into a colony?

There's your answer.


who controls the oil fields now? There you got your answer.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/03/world/middleeast/china-reaps-biggest-benefits-of-iraq-oil-boom.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13906 Posts
September 21 2013 00:28 GMT
#9219
On September 21 2013 06:58 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2013 06:40 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On September 20 2013 20:17 Paljas wrote:
On September 20 2013 09:57 DoubleReed wrote:
Seriously, why do people have a problem with me labeling the Republicans the Bad Guys?

Imperialism, capitalism

God, what I would give for an Imperialist/Capitalist President.

Honestly our relationship with China has a great deal of resemblance to that with trading partners in the imperial era. You find a place with an awful lot of a valuable resource you can use (in China's case mainly people) and a friendly regime that'll let you exploit that resource. Financiers then invest in building the infrastructure and trading links to exploit that resource making themselves, and the local despots who secure their investment rich. Troubles only occur when the despot can no longer keep their shit together due to the people getting tired of it (see South America) or gets so outrageously oppressive that the financiers get bad press for it (see Africa). As long as they're discreetly oppressive we will happily arm their regime, finance them and help keep them in charge while they, in turn, give us access to their stuff. Countries getting shaded in on the map is a last resort when you run out of potential despots, life is easier for everyone involved if you can find someone from the area to keep the status quo going while you and them make a lot of money. It is no coincidence that the Chinese elites send their children to school in the United Kingdom, any more than the generation of Oxbridge graduates who ran the Middle Eastern dictatorships happened by chance. China is perhaps the greatest success story of western economic imperialism, the reason we don't hear about it is because, outside of Tiananmen Square, they're very good at keeping their shit together.

Imperialism is alive and with us. The idea that it was sticking flags into beaches and claiming places completely misunderstands the nature of the beast.

The sad truth of globalization is that its an empire though culture economy and society.

Its a wicked truth but every nation is now an american nation, or its horribly horrible and should change to be more american.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
September 21 2013 00:39 GMT
#9220
iraq is a colony of multinational capital which is the true master of US foreign policy. So yes
shikata ga nai
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