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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24417 Posts
On May 06 2016 03:30 ragz_gt wrote: It also devoid of any context or nuance, which is how we end up in this place in the first place. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/9/5/1127885/-Jon-Stewart-warns-Dems-Americans-don-t-do-nuance What context or nuance is it missing on Bosnia? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States24417 Posts
On May 06 2016 03:34 Plansix wrote: I want everyone to just dig into that youtube channel and see that it has 4 total videos of questionable merits. And then question where the hell people find this stuff? That guy has 5K subscribers. Who is digging up 3 month old videos that are basically reblogs of a CNN hour special on the debates? I'd like people to wrestle with how openly dishonest Hillary is, rather than blame the messenger for pointing it out. There is no defense of what she did regarding describing her experience in Bosnia, so I suppose your way is easier. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
And its not like Sanders is any stranger to stretching the truth to paint a picture: http://www.factcheck.org/2016/04/clintons-fossil-fuel-money-revisited/ The man is not the bastion of accuracy and gets really mad when people point that out. But don’t let that confuse you and your love for the man. Even though he is just a much of a politician as Hilary. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On May 06 2016 03:40 Plansix wrote: No one is going to deny she did lie about that and it was stupid. And its not like Sanders is any stranger to stretching the truth to paint a picture: http://www.factcheck.org/2016/04/clintons-fossil-fuel-money-revisited/ The man is not the bastion of accuracy and gets really mad when people point that out. But don’t let that confuse you and your love for the man. Even though he is just a much of a politician as Hilary. Tbh honest drinking the koolaid that Bernie is and trying to feed it to everyone is just as bad. Ignorance isnt by any means a lesser sin. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24417 Posts
On May 06 2016 03:40 Plansix wrote: No one is going to deny she did lie about that and it was stupid. And its not like Sanders is any stranger to stretching the truth to paint a picture: http://www.factcheck.org/2016/04/clintons-fossil-fuel-money-revisited/ The man is not the bastion of accuracy and gets really mad when people point that out. But don’t let that confuse you and your love for the man. Even though he is just a much of a politician as Hilary. Give me a break... She blatantly lied multiple times, you could call it stretching the truth on the oil money, but they aren't even remotely comparable. the $4.5 million total is tied to donations made to a super PAC supporting Clinton — which Clinton does not control Riiight she doesn't control it, even though much of it's board is directly on the payroll of her campaign, including David Brock who runs a different superPAC that she does coordinate with (and some propaganda outlets as well). It's just gross, watching people who say they want campaign finance reform defend this crap. | ||
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
On May 06 2016 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote: What context or nuance is it missing on Bosnia? The nuance is that highlight reel is a worthless cheap distortion of reality often resorted by people who has no legitimate argument. that If you make a highlight reel of Jordan's missed shots he'd look like unfit to be on a NCAA team. The nuance is that any politicians have issues like that, and you can make a similar highlight reel out of anybody, and Hillary has pretty good accuracy comparatively (so does Sanders) if you actually look into her claims and that Hillary's "trustworthiness" is mostly a meme that's perpetuated by highlight reel like this. I don't really like Clinton, and in a vacuum I prob prefer Sanders to her (too bad our politics don't work in a vacuum, though I don't mind send them to one), but just a random clip of anyone is only convincing to those who are looking to be convinced and too lazy or unwilling to actually look at the big picture. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On May 06 2016 03:47 GreenHorizons wrote: It's just gross, watching people who say they want campaign finance reform defend this crap. I advocate for higher taxes for my tax bracket. I will not just send the government a check for the taxes I think I and everyone else with my income should be paying. I will vote for higher taxes but I will not pay the extra myself unless everyone is. How is that any different? Is it wrong of me to not pay the taxes ahead of time? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24417 Posts
On May 06 2016 03:51 ragz_gt wrote: The nuance is that highlight reel is a worthless cheap distortion of reality often resorted by people who has no legitimate argument. that If you make a highlight reel of Jordan's missed shots he'd look like unfit to be on a NCAA team. The nuance is that any politicians have issues like that, and you can make a similar highlight reel out of anybody, and Hillary has pretty good accuracy comparatively (so does Sanders) if you actually look into her claims and that Hillary's "trustworthiness" is mostly a meme that's perpetuated by highlight reel like this. I don't really like Clinton, and in a vacuum I prob prefer Sanders to her (too bad our politics don't work in a vacuum, though I don't mind send them to one), but just a random clip of anyone is only convincing to those who are looking to be convinced and too lazy or unwilling to actually look at the big picture. So what your saying is that it didn't lack any nuance or context relating to Bosnia? On May 06 2016 03:54 Mohdoo wrote: I advocate for higher taxes for my tax bracket. I will not just send the government a check for the taxes I think I and everyone else with my income should be paying. I will vote for higher taxes but I will not pay the extra myself unless everyone is. How is that any different? Is it wrong of me to not pay the taxes ahead of time? In the way that telling your slave that you're against slavery is different. It's morally repugnant to engage with in the first place. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
You bitch about voter repression, but then demand the DNC do things that pretty much assure that they lose races and would lead to the RNC passing more voter ID laws. Its almost like your sole goal in life is to fuck yourself if you can’t have exactly what you want. | ||
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
On May 06 2016 03:54 GreenHorizons wrote: So what your saying is that it didn't lack any nuance or context relating to Bosnia? I'm saying you have no idea what nuance actually means. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
Nope, just some random almost irrelevant comment from 8 years ago. Oh well, carry on. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24417 Posts
On May 06 2016 03:58 LegalLord wrote: Someone started talking about Bosnia and here I thought someone actually cared about Hillary's support for the Clinton administration's involvement in Yugoslavia and Serbia. Nope, just some random almost irrelevant comment from 7 years ago. Oh well, carry on. Not irrelevant to her honesty. On May 06 2016 03:56 ragz_gt wrote: I'm saying you have no idea what nuance actually means. Point to any nuance that is missing, otherwise I don't believe you. On May 06 2016 03:56 Plansix wrote: She could not have super PACs and really risk losing the election to the RNC. I am sure all the LGBT folks in the US would be super pumped Trump and the RNC nominate another Scalia to the bench. Because at least the DNC preserved its ideological purity by making 100% sure super PACs would be around for the next 4, 8, 12, 20 years. You bitch about voter repression, but then demand the DNC do things that pretty much assure that they lose races and would lead to the RNC passing more voter ID laws. Its almost like your sole goal in life is to fuck yourself if you can’t have exactly what you want. This... The RNC nominated someone who is not just rhetorically against superPAC's he actually doesn't use them, he also went up against several of them during his primary, one spending well over $100 million. This "She had to use the corrupting influence of superPAC's or else..." is a pile of hot wet garbage. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Also, Sanders would have to use them if he won the nomination. You know that right? The DNC isn’t going to not use them just because he doesn’t like it. | ||
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CannonsNCarriers
United States638 Posts
Lying is what Trump does. Every line he rattles off is riddled with falsehoods. His big ones are his Iraq position, his tax plans, his claimed business success, his university scams, his conspiracy theories, his claims of holding actual beliefs, pretty much every other sentence is a lie. | ||
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IgnE
United States7684 Posts
On May 06 2016 02:27 Plansix wrote: My master plan is to mock it as having little to do with immediate state of US politics and is mostly an argument based around semantics. Then the snotty response about being unwilling to debate the issue will hopefully derail the discussion. Or Trump will do something amazingly stupid, like blame the Flint water issue on Muslims. I don't intend to argue the point but you guys realize that whitedoge's post was not primarily a semantic one right? It was a substantive one about Marx's arguments for an internationalism centered around home-based economic units. Your cringe-worthy responses are exactly the reason that we end up with well-meaning but unsophisticated candidates like Bernie instead of incisive European-style lefists like they had in Syriza. You can't speak the language and seemingly don't have the patience for anything beyond a seventh grade reading level. Trump at least knows his audience. | ||
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
On May 06 2016 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote: Point to any nuance that is missing, otherwise I don't believe you. On May 06 2016 03:51 ragz_gt wrote: The nuance is that highlight reel is a worthless cheap distortion of reality often resorted by people who has no legitimate argument. that If you make a highlight reel of Jordan's missed shots he'd look like unfit to be on a NCAA team. The nuance is that any politicians have issues like that, and you can make a similar highlight reel out of anybody, and Hillary has pretty good accuracy comparatively (so does Sanders) if you actually look into her claims and that Hillary's "trustworthiness" is mostly a meme that's perpetuated by highlight reel like this. I guess the whole idea just flies right over your head. You are like the irl meme in http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/9/5/1127885/-Jon-Stewart-warns-Dems-Americans-don-t-do-nuance | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
Nah. Trump is just stating that he's willing to put raising the minimum wage on the table, but raising it will not be a central part of his overall policy for helping lower income Americans. This is simply classic Trump dealmaking. | ||
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CannonsNCarriers
United States638 Posts
On May 06 2016 04:17 xDaunt wrote: Nah. Trump is just stating that he's willing to put raising the minimum wage on the table, but raising it will not be a central part of his overall policy for helping lower income Americans. This is simply classic Trump dealmaking. Do you see how Trump is killing intellectual Conservatism? He is systematically throwing cherished Conservative policy positions overboard. Free trade, unions, minimum wage, abortion, supply side tax cuts, you name it, Trump is willing to toss it for votes. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24417 Posts
On May 06 2016 04:06 CannonsNCarriers wrote: Counterpoint to video: Hillary has consistently been in the mainstream of Democratic thought, but what is mainstream Democratic thinking has changed since 1992 (and has changed since 2008 too). She isn't lying or flip flopping when she keeps up with what the middle of the Democratic party wants. She is a politician, specifically a Democratic party stalwart. She, like Obama and Bill, moves to what the middle of the party wants. The video isn't proving any lies by showing that in the 90s she said what Democrats wanted then, and then showing a clip in the 2010s of Hillary saying what Democrats wanted at that time. This is not a bad thing, and it makes me like her more. Try to remember that our politicians are representatives of voters. Lying is what Trump does. Every line he rattles off is riddled with falsehoods. His big ones are his Iraq position, his tax plans, his claimed business success, his university scams, his conspiracy theories, his claims of holding actual beliefs, pretty much every other sentence is a lie. So the reason I timemarked the video is because I wasn't referencing the whole video, just the part about Bosnia, at least Plan came out and just ate the fact that she was just blatantly lying multiple times about it. Everyone else just intentionally pettifogged. | ||
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