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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18866 Posts
July 21 2013 18:11 GMT
#6861
Since we're on the subject.

Hospitals can make much more money when surgery goes wrong than in cases that go without a hitch.

And that presents a problem for patients. The financial incentives don't favor better care.

"The magnitude of the numbers was eye-popping," says , a professor of surgery at Harvard Medical School, and an author of the study, which was just published in JAMA, the Journal of the American Medical Association. "It was much larger than we expected."

If a patient with private insurance had complications after surgery, hospitals made $39,017 more profit than if all had gone well. That's compared to an additional profit of $1,749 for a Medicare patient with complications after surgery.

"That's an indication of the level of perversity here," Gawande says. "Having a complication was profitable, and fighting complications was highly unprofitable."

It's not surprising that health care costs are higher when there are complications, since patients need more care to get better. And it's not surprising that hospitals bill private insurers at a much higher rate than Medicare.

There was no profit with Medicare patients. The paper used "contribution margin," which is revenues minus variable costs. In other words, the expense of items used directly for a patient's care, not overhead or other fixed costs.

The much higher margin on cases involving mistakes is enough to make a patient think that hospitals aren't highly motivated to reduce medical errors. In fact, one reason that Gawande and his colleagues embarked on the study is that many hospitals have been slow to adopt practices proven to improve the quality of care and save money.


Quality Conundrum: Complications Boost Hospital Profits
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
July 21 2013 18:17 GMT
#6862
On July 22 2013 03:11 farvacola wrote:
Since we're on the subject.

Show nested quote +
Hospitals can make much more money when surgery goes wrong than in cases that go without a hitch.

And that presents a problem for patients. The financial incentives don't favor better care.

"The magnitude of the numbers was eye-popping," says , a professor of surgery at Harvard Medical School, and an author of the study, which was just published in JAMA, the Journal of the American Medical Association. "It was much larger than we expected."

If a patient with private insurance had complications after surgery, hospitals made $39,017 more profit than if all had gone well. That's compared to an additional profit of $1,749 for a Medicare patient with complications after surgery.

"That's an indication of the level of perversity here," Gawande says. "Having a complication was profitable, and fighting complications was highly unprofitable."

It's not surprising that health care costs are higher when there are complications, since patients need more care to get better. And it's not surprising that hospitals bill private insurers at a much higher rate than Medicare.

There was no profit with Medicare patients. The paper used "contribution margin," which is revenues minus variable costs. In other words, the expense of items used directly for a patient's care, not overhead or other fixed costs.

The much higher margin on cases involving mistakes is enough to make a patient think that hospitals aren't highly motivated to reduce medical errors. In fact, one reason that Gawande and his colleagues embarked on the study is that many hospitals have been slow to adopt practices proven to improve the quality of care and save money.


Quality Conundrum: Complications Boost Hospital Profits

Well, that's horrifying. Remind me never to get my healthcare done in the US unless I'm paying up front in cash and tipping the doctors 10k each . I kid, but this is really scary to me ><
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
July 21 2013 18:20 GMT
#6863
On July 22 2013 03:17 Shiori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2013 03:11 farvacola wrote:
Since we're on the subject.

Hospitals can make much more money when surgery goes wrong than in cases that go without a hitch.

And that presents a problem for patients. The financial incentives don't favor better care.

"The magnitude of the numbers was eye-popping," says , a professor of surgery at Harvard Medical School, and an author of the study, which was just published in JAMA, the Journal of the American Medical Association. "It was much larger than we expected."

If a patient with private insurance had complications after surgery, hospitals made $39,017 more profit than if all had gone well. That's compared to an additional profit of $1,749 for a Medicare patient with complications after surgery.

"That's an indication of the level of perversity here," Gawande says. "Having a complication was profitable, and fighting complications was highly unprofitable."

It's not surprising that health care costs are higher when there are complications, since patients need more care to get better. And it's not surprising that hospitals bill private insurers at a much higher rate than Medicare.

There was no profit with Medicare patients. The paper used "contribution margin," which is revenues minus variable costs. In other words, the expense of items used directly for a patient's care, not overhead or other fixed costs.

The much higher margin on cases involving mistakes is enough to make a patient think that hospitals aren't highly motivated to reduce medical errors. In fact, one reason that Gawande and his colleagues embarked on the study is that many hospitals have been slow to adopt practices proven to improve the quality of care and save money.


Quality Conundrum: Complications Boost Hospital Profits

Well, that's horrifying. Remind me never to get my healthcare done in the US unless I'm paying up front in cash and tipping the doctors 10k each . I kid, but this is really scary to me ><

You'd want to be covered by insurance. If you come with cash they'd know you had some, and try to milk some more out.

To the article, Gawande is great - people should listen to him more.
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
July 21 2013 18:23 GMT
#6864
On July 22 2013 03:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2013 03:17 Shiori wrote:
On July 22 2013 03:11 farvacola wrote:
Since we're on the subject.

Hospitals can make much more money when surgery goes wrong than in cases that go without a hitch.

And that presents a problem for patients. The financial incentives don't favor better care.

"The magnitude of the numbers was eye-popping," says , a professor of surgery at Harvard Medical School, and an author of the study, which was just published in JAMA, the Journal of the American Medical Association. "It was much larger than we expected."

If a patient with private insurance had complications after surgery, hospitals made $39,017 more profit than if all had gone well. That's compared to an additional profit of $1,749 for a Medicare patient with complications after surgery.

"That's an indication of the level of perversity here," Gawande says. "Having a complication was profitable, and fighting complications was highly unprofitable."

It's not surprising that health care costs are higher when there are complications, since patients need more care to get better. And it's not surprising that hospitals bill private insurers at a much higher rate than Medicare.

There was no profit with Medicare patients. The paper used "contribution margin," which is revenues minus variable costs. In other words, the expense of items used directly for a patient's care, not overhead or other fixed costs.

The much higher margin on cases involving mistakes is enough to make a patient think that hospitals aren't highly motivated to reduce medical errors. In fact, one reason that Gawande and his colleagues embarked on the study is that many hospitals have been slow to adopt practices proven to improve the quality of care and save money.


Quality Conundrum: Complications Boost Hospital Profits

Well, that's horrifying. Remind me never to get my healthcare done in the US unless I'm paying up front in cash and tipping the doctors 10k each . I kid, but this is really scary to me ><

You'd want to be covered by insurance. If you come with cash they'd know you had some, and try to milk some more out.

To the article, Gawande is great - people should listen to him more.

Every time I've visited the US, I've made sure to read pretty much every word of the health care insurance I buy, haha. There are usually some good Canada-based ones that sorta mesh well with the health care we have here ^^. I have heard some bad stories about people who went uninsured on vacation there and came back with massive bills. Definitely do not want haha.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
July 21 2013 18:44 GMT
#6865
On July 21 2013 10:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
Whether it’s immigration reform, the budget, or President Obama’s nominees, a faction of more moderate Republican senators are increasingly splitting from both their leadership and the tea party and partnering with Democrats on key issues.

The growing signs of division are remarkable after years of exceptional Senate GOP unity under the reign of Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY), during which minority use of the filibuster to thwart governance has soared to unprecedented heights.

This week, large numbers of Republicans, led by Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), broke with McConnell and voted with Democrats to secure the confirmation of controversial Obama nominees to the Labor Department, Environmental Protection Agency and Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. In all eight cloture and confirmation votes, McConnell voted “no.”

The most controversial nominee so far, Tom Perez for labor secretary, overcame a GOP filibuster by the thinnest of margins, 60-40. The six Republicans who joined Democrats in his favor, whom Democrats will look to for cooperation on other matters, were Sens. McCain, Bob Corker (TN), Lamar Alexander (TN), Susan Collins (ME), Mark Kirk (IL) and Lisa Murkowski (AK).

In a clear sign of boiling rank-and-file frustration, Corker reportedly cried “bullshit” loudly while McConnell was discussing the issue of nominations and Democrats’ nuclear option threat during a closed-door GOP meeting on Wednesday. He later declined to apologize for it and said he’s “glad that that occurred.”

On immigration, 14 Republicans joined every Democrat in voting to comprehensively overhaul the system and offer unauthorized immigrants a path to citizenship.

On the budget, numerous Republican senators are urging conservative colleagues to stop blocking conference negotiations with the House, and are pushing for a long-term budget agreement with Democrats that includes new revenues — anathema to the tea party.

McCain has led the dissent in each of these cases, earning effusive praise from leading Democratic senators and prompting jokes this week by Democratic aides that he is the new minority leader.

McCain has led the dissent in each of these cases, earning effusive praise from leading Democratic senators and prompting jokes this week by Democratic aides that he is the new minority leader.
Source


While nominees are one thing, the question I would pose is: What is the point of a Republican party that just signs on to bills? I feel like Democrats think that Republicans should just take Democratic bills and insert the pork that they also want. This is kinda fundamentally at odds with the entire purpose of the party.
Freeeeeeedom
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18866 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-21 18:47:35
July 21 2013 18:46 GMT
#6866
On July 22 2013 03:44 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2013 10:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Whether it’s immigration reform, the budget, or President Obama’s nominees, a faction of more moderate Republican senators are increasingly splitting from both their leadership and the tea party and partnering with Democrats on key issues.

The growing signs of division are remarkable after years of exceptional Senate GOP unity under the reign of Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY), during which minority use of the filibuster to thwart governance has soared to unprecedented heights.

This week, large numbers of Republicans, led by Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), broke with McConnell and voted with Democrats to secure the confirmation of controversial Obama nominees to the Labor Department, Environmental Protection Agency and Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. In all eight cloture and confirmation votes, McConnell voted “no.”

The most controversial nominee so far, Tom Perez for labor secretary, overcame a GOP filibuster by the thinnest of margins, 60-40. The six Republicans who joined Democrats in his favor, whom Democrats will look to for cooperation on other matters, were Sens. McCain, Bob Corker (TN), Lamar Alexander (TN), Susan Collins (ME), Mark Kirk (IL) and Lisa Murkowski (AK).

In a clear sign of boiling rank-and-file frustration, Corker reportedly cried “bullshit” loudly while McConnell was discussing the issue of nominations and Democrats’ nuclear option threat during a closed-door GOP meeting on Wednesday. He later declined to apologize for it and said he’s “glad that that occurred.”

On immigration, 14 Republicans joined every Democrat in voting to comprehensively overhaul the system and offer unauthorized immigrants a path to citizenship.

On the budget, numerous Republican senators are urging conservative colleagues to stop blocking conference negotiations with the House, and are pushing for a long-term budget agreement with Democrats that includes new revenues — anathema to the tea party.

McCain has led the dissent in each of these cases, earning effusive praise from leading Democratic senators and prompting jokes this week by Democratic aides that he is the new minority leader.

McCain has led the dissent in each of these cases, earning effusive praise from leading Democratic senators and prompting jokes this week by Democratic aides that he is the new minority leader.
Source


While nominees are one thing, the question I would pose is: What is the point of a Republican party that just signs on to bills? I feel like Democrats think that Republicans should just take Democratic bills and insert the pork that they also want. This is kinda fundamentally at odds with the entire purpose of the party.

The "fundamentals" of the Republican Party are up in the air, judging by the split between RINO's and Tea Party'ers. I'm sure Lamar Alexander and Ted Cruz have rather different ideas as to what constitutes a proper Republican. I expect '14 to be one big Republican "No True Scotsman" party
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
July 21 2013 18:58 GMT
#6867
On July 22 2013 03:46 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2013 03:44 cLutZ wrote:
On July 21 2013 10:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Whether it’s immigration reform, the budget, or President Obama’s nominees, a faction of more moderate Republican senators are increasingly splitting from both their leadership and the tea party and partnering with Democrats on key issues.

The growing signs of division are remarkable after years of exceptional Senate GOP unity under the reign of Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY), during which minority use of the filibuster to thwart governance has soared to unprecedented heights.

This week, large numbers of Republicans, led by Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), broke with McConnell and voted with Democrats to secure the confirmation of controversial Obama nominees to the Labor Department, Environmental Protection Agency and Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. In all eight cloture and confirmation votes, McConnell voted “no.”

The most controversial nominee so far, Tom Perez for labor secretary, overcame a GOP filibuster by the thinnest of margins, 60-40. The six Republicans who joined Democrats in his favor, whom Democrats will look to for cooperation on other matters, were Sens. McCain, Bob Corker (TN), Lamar Alexander (TN), Susan Collins (ME), Mark Kirk (IL) and Lisa Murkowski (AK).

In a clear sign of boiling rank-and-file frustration, Corker reportedly cried “bullshit” loudly while McConnell was discussing the issue of nominations and Democrats’ nuclear option threat during a closed-door GOP meeting on Wednesday. He later declined to apologize for it and said he’s “glad that that occurred.”

On immigration, 14 Republicans joined every Democrat in voting to comprehensively overhaul the system and offer unauthorized immigrants a path to citizenship.

On the budget, numerous Republican senators are urging conservative colleagues to stop blocking conference negotiations with the House, and are pushing for a long-term budget agreement with Democrats that includes new revenues — anathema to the tea party.

McCain has led the dissent in each of these cases, earning effusive praise from leading Democratic senators and prompting jokes this week by Democratic aides that he is the new minority leader.

McCain has led the dissent in each of these cases, earning effusive praise from leading Democratic senators and prompting jokes this week by Democratic aides that he is the new minority leader.
Source


While nominees are one thing, the question I would pose is: What is the point of a Republican party that just signs on to bills? I feel like Democrats think that Republicans should just take Democratic bills and insert the pork that they also want. This is kinda fundamentally at odds with the entire purpose of the party.

The "fundamentals" of the Republican Party are up in the air, judging by the split between RINO's and Tea Party'ers. I'm sure Lamar Alexander and Ted Cruz have rather different ideas as to what constitutes a proper Republican. I expect '14 to be one big Republican "No True Scotsman" party



What?
Freeeeeeedom
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
July 21 2013 19:00 GMT
#6868
On July 22 2013 03:58 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2013 03:46 farvacola wrote:
On July 22 2013 03:44 cLutZ wrote:
On July 21 2013 10:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Whether it’s immigration reform, the budget, or President Obama’s nominees, a faction of more moderate Republican senators are increasingly splitting from both their leadership and the tea party and partnering with Democrats on key issues.

The growing signs of division are remarkable after years of exceptional Senate GOP unity under the reign of Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY), during which minority use of the filibuster to thwart governance has soared to unprecedented heights.

This week, large numbers of Republicans, led by Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), broke with McConnell and voted with Democrats to secure the confirmation of controversial Obama nominees to the Labor Department, Environmental Protection Agency and Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. In all eight cloture and confirmation votes, McConnell voted “no.”

The most controversial nominee so far, Tom Perez for labor secretary, overcame a GOP filibuster by the thinnest of margins, 60-40. The six Republicans who joined Democrats in his favor, whom Democrats will look to for cooperation on other matters, were Sens. McCain, Bob Corker (TN), Lamar Alexander (TN), Susan Collins (ME), Mark Kirk (IL) and Lisa Murkowski (AK).

In a clear sign of boiling rank-and-file frustration, Corker reportedly cried “bullshit” loudly while McConnell was discussing the issue of nominations and Democrats’ nuclear option threat during a closed-door GOP meeting on Wednesday. He later declined to apologize for it and said he’s “glad that that occurred.”

On immigration, 14 Republicans joined every Democrat in voting to comprehensively overhaul the system and offer unauthorized immigrants a path to citizenship.

On the budget, numerous Republican senators are urging conservative colleagues to stop blocking conference negotiations with the House, and are pushing for a long-term budget agreement with Democrats that includes new revenues — anathema to the tea party.

McCain has led the dissent in each of these cases, earning effusive praise from leading Democratic senators and prompting jokes this week by Democratic aides that he is the new minority leader.

McCain has led the dissent in each of these cases, earning effusive praise from leading Democratic senators and prompting jokes this week by Democratic aides that he is the new minority leader.
Source


While nominees are one thing, the question I would pose is: What is the point of a Republican party that just signs on to bills? I feel like Democrats think that Republicans should just take Democratic bills and insert the pork that they also want. This is kinda fundamentally at odds with the entire purpose of the party.

The "fundamentals" of the Republican Party are up in the air, judging by the split between RINO's and Tea Party'ers. I'm sure Lamar Alexander and Ted Cruz have rather different ideas as to what constitutes a proper Republican. I expect '14 to be one big Republican "No True Scotsman" party



What?

He's saying that every Republican seems to think half their own party isn't a "true" Republican, hence terms like "RINO."
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18866 Posts
July 21 2013 19:04 GMT
#6869
You made an exaggerative claim in regards to McCain's schism and their refusal to continue playing Mitch McConnell's game, as though their signing off on Obama's nominees is somehow against the fundamentals of the Republican Party. I'm suggesting that many other Republicans think differently, and the question as to who will lead the party moving forward can only be determined by seeing how these next few election cycles play out, during which we will see a great deal of people continue to make appeals to "fundamentals".

I'll tell you this much. Ted Cruz loves his fundamentals.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
July 21 2013 19:52 GMT
#6870
On July 22 2013 04:04 farvacola wrote:
You made an exaggerative claim in regards to McCain's schism and their refusal to continue playing Mitch McConnell's game, as though their signing off on Obama's nominees is somehow against the fundamentals of the Republican Party. I'm suggesting that many other Republicans think differently, and the question as to who will lead the party moving forward can only be determined by seeing how these next few election cycles play out, during which we will see a great deal of people continue to make appeals to "fundamentals".

I'll tell you this much. Ted Cruz loves his fundamentals.


I was saying that executive nominees are not really that important to anyone. The problem I was trying to talk about is this POV that the old Bob Dole/Bush Republicans had it right and the new Tea Party types are wrong.

Now I totally agree that there will be a battle in primaries/etc to see which view of the Republican Party continues on, but my point is if the milktoast Jeb Bush/McCain faction wins, there is really no point to having the Republican Party anyways.
Freeeeeeedom
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-21 20:01:18
July 21 2013 19:59 GMT
#6871
On July 22 2013 03:11 farvacola wrote:
Since we're on the subject.

Show nested quote +
Hospitals can make much more money when surgery goes wrong than in cases that go without a hitch.

And that presents a problem for patients. The financial incentives don't favor better care.

"The magnitude of the numbers was eye-popping," says , a professor of surgery at Harvard Medical School, and an author of the study, which was just published in JAMA, the Journal of the American Medical Association. "It was much larger than we expected."

If a patient with private insurance had complications after surgery, hospitals made $39,017 more profit than if all had gone well. That's compared to an additional profit of $1,749 for a Medicare patient with complications after surgery.

"That's an indication of the level of perversity here," Gawande says. "Having a complication was profitable, and fighting complications was highly unprofitable."

It's not surprising that health care costs are higher when there are complications, since patients need more care to get better. And it's not surprising that hospitals bill private insurers at a much higher rate than Medicare.

There was no profit with Medicare patients. The paper used "contribution margin," which is revenues minus variable costs. In other words, the expense of items used directly for a patient's care, not overhead or other fixed costs.

The much higher margin on cases involving mistakes is enough to make a patient think that hospitals aren't highly motivated to reduce medical errors. In fact, one reason that Gawande and his colleagues embarked on the study is that many hospitals have been slow to adopt practices proven to improve the quality of care and save money.


Quality Conundrum: Complications Boost Hospital Profits

What's this? Private sector is overpaying for healthcare and promoting inefficient practices?! WELL, I NEVER!!!
On July 22 2013 04:52 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2013 04:04 farvacola wrote:
You made an exaggerative claim in regards to McCain's schism and their refusal to continue playing Mitch McConnell's game, as though their signing off on Obama's nominees is somehow against the fundamentals of the Republican Party. I'm suggesting that many other Republicans think differently, and the question as to who will lead the party moving forward can only be determined by seeing how these next few election cycles play out, during which we will see a great deal of people continue to make appeals to "fundamentals".

I'll tell you this much. Ted Cruz loves his fundamentals.


I was saying that executive nominees are not really that important to anyone. The problem I was trying to talk about is this POV that the old Bob Dole/Bush Republicans had it right and the new Tea Party types are wrong.

Now I totally agree that there will be a battle in primaries/etc to see which view of the Republican Party continues on, but my point is if the milktoast Jeb Bush/McCain faction wins, there is really no point to having the Republican Party anyways.

So you expect the Republican party to simply be sticks in the mud until they get their way? I have to wonder what you think "progressive" or "liberal" legislation looks like. It sure as hell doesn't look like anything that's coming out of the Senate right now.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-21 20:25:31
July 21 2013 20:25 GMT
#6872
On July 22 2013 04:59 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2013 03:11 farvacola wrote:
Since we're on the subject.

Hospitals can make much more money when surgery goes wrong than in cases that go without a hitch.

And that presents a problem for patients. The financial incentives don't favor better care.

"The magnitude of the numbers was eye-popping," says , a professor of surgery at Harvard Medical School, and an author of the study, which was just published in JAMA, the Journal of the American Medical Association. "It was much larger than we expected."

If a patient with private insurance had complications after surgery, hospitals made $39,017 more profit than if all had gone well. That's compared to an additional profit of $1,749 for a Medicare patient with complications after surgery.

"That's an indication of the level of perversity here," Gawande says. "Having a complication was profitable, and fighting complications was highly unprofitable."

It's not surprising that health care costs are higher when there are complications, since patients need more care to get better. And it's not surprising that hospitals bill private insurers at a much higher rate than Medicare.

There was no profit with Medicare patients. The paper used "contribution margin," which is revenues minus variable costs. In other words, the expense of items used directly for a patient's care, not overhead or other fixed costs.

The much higher margin on cases involving mistakes is enough to make a patient think that hospitals aren't highly motivated to reduce medical errors. In fact, one reason that Gawande and his colleagues embarked on the study is that many hospitals have been slow to adopt practices proven to improve the quality of care and save money.


Quality Conundrum: Complications Boost Hospital Profits

What's this? Private sector is overpaying for healthcare and promoting inefficient practices?! WELL, I NEVER!!!
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2013 04:52 cLutZ wrote:
On July 22 2013 04:04 farvacola wrote:
You made an exaggerative claim in regards to McCain's schism and their refusal to continue playing Mitch McConnell's game, as though their signing off on Obama's nominees is somehow against the fundamentals of the Republican Party. I'm suggesting that many other Republicans think differently, and the question as to who will lead the party moving forward can only be determined by seeing how these next few election cycles play out, during which we will see a great deal of people continue to make appeals to "fundamentals".

I'll tell you this much. Ted Cruz loves his fundamentals.


I was saying that executive nominees are not really that important to anyone. The problem I was trying to talk about is this POV that the old Bob Dole/Bush Republicans had it right and the new Tea Party types are wrong.

Now I totally agree that there will be a battle in primaries/etc to see which view of the Republican Party continues on, but my point is if the milktoast Jeb Bush/McCain faction wins, there is really no point to having the Republican Party anyways.

So you expect the Republican party to simply be sticks in the mud until they get their way? I have to wonder what you think "progressive" or "liberal" legislation looks like. It sure as hell doesn't look like anything that's coming out of the Senate right now.


For a liberal I'm sure the march towards a strong cradle-to-grave welfare state is too slow. For a libertarian, how far we have already gone towards it is frightening.
Freeeeeeedom
HunterX11
Profile Joined March 2009
United States1048 Posts
July 21 2013 20:25 GMT
#6873
On July 22 2013 04:59 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2013 03:11 farvacola wrote:
Since we're on the subject.

Hospitals can make much more money when surgery goes wrong than in cases that go without a hitch.

And that presents a problem for patients. The financial incentives don't favor better care.

"The magnitude of the numbers was eye-popping," says , a professor of surgery at Harvard Medical School, and an author of the study, which was just published in JAMA, the Journal of the American Medical Association. "It was much larger than we expected."

If a patient with private insurance had complications after surgery, hospitals made $39,017 more profit than if all had gone well. That's compared to an additional profit of $1,749 for a Medicare patient with complications after surgery.

"That's an indication of the level of perversity here," Gawande says. "Having a complication was profitable, and fighting complications was highly unprofitable."

It's not surprising that health care costs are higher when there are complications, since patients need more care to get better. And it's not surprising that hospitals bill private insurers at a much higher rate than Medicare.

There was no profit with Medicare patients. The paper used "contribution margin," which is revenues minus variable costs. In other words, the expense of items used directly for a patient's care, not overhead or other fixed costs.

The much higher margin on cases involving mistakes is enough to make a patient think that hospitals aren't highly motivated to reduce medical errors. In fact, one reason that Gawande and his colleagues embarked on the study is that many hospitals have been slow to adopt practices proven to improve the quality of care and save money.


Quality Conundrum: Complications Boost Hospital Profits

What's this? Private sector is overpaying for healthcare and promoting inefficient practices?! WELL, I NEVER!!!
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2013 04:52 cLutZ wrote:
On July 22 2013 04:04 farvacola wrote:
You made an exaggerative claim in regards to McCain's schism and their refusal to continue playing Mitch McConnell's game, as though their signing off on Obama's nominees is somehow against the fundamentals of the Republican Party. I'm suggesting that many other Republicans think differently, and the question as to who will lead the party moving forward can only be determined by seeing how these next few election cycles play out, during which we will see a great deal of people continue to make appeals to "fundamentals".

I'll tell you this much. Ted Cruz loves his fundamentals.


I was saying that executive nominees are not really that important to anyone. The problem I was trying to talk about is this POV that the old Bob Dole/Bush Republicans had it right and the new Tea Party types are wrong.

Now I totally agree that there will be a battle in primaries/etc to see which view of the Republican Party continues on, but my point is if the milktoast Jeb Bush/McCain faction wins, there is really no point to having the Republican Party anyways.

So you expect the Republican party to simply be sticks in the mud until they get their way? I have to wonder what you think "progressive" or "liberal" legislation looks like. It sure as hell doesn't look like anything that's coming out of the Senate right now.


I actually agree with him but for perhaps the opposite reason: part of why the Republican Party is in so much trouble is that the Democratic "triangulation" strategy really is working. Despite how weak it leaves the Democrats appearing, it works out in practice that they can still entice progressive voters while actually being in practice a party for reasonable conservatives (think Rockefeller Republicans), leaving essentially no political space for the Republicans to claim except reactionaries and populists: and they aren't going to court the latter, hence the rise in prominence of the former.
Try using both Irradiate and Defensive Matrix on an Overlord. It looks pretty neat.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-21 20:45:06
July 21 2013 20:30 GMT
#6874
On July 22 2013 04:59 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2013 03:11 farvacola wrote:
Since we're on the subject.

Hospitals can make much more money when surgery goes wrong than in cases that go without a hitch.

And that presents a problem for patients. The financial incentives don't favor better care.

"The magnitude of the numbers was eye-popping," says , a professor of surgery at Harvard Medical School, and an author of the study, which was just published in JAMA, the Journal of the American Medical Association. "It was much larger than we expected."

If a patient with private insurance had complications after surgery, hospitals made $39,017 more profit than if all had gone well. That's compared to an additional profit of $1,749 for a Medicare patient with complications after surgery.

"That's an indication of the level of perversity here," Gawande says. "Having a complication was profitable, and fighting complications was highly unprofitable."

It's not surprising that health care costs are higher when there are complications, since patients need more care to get better. And it's not surprising that hospitals bill private insurers at a much higher rate than Medicare.

There was no profit with Medicare patients. The paper used "contribution margin," which is revenues minus variable costs. In other words, the expense of items used directly for a patient's care, not overhead or other fixed costs.

The much higher margin on cases involving mistakes is enough to make a patient think that hospitals aren't highly motivated to reduce medical errors. In fact, one reason that Gawande and his colleagues embarked on the study is that many hospitals have been slow to adopt practices proven to improve the quality of care and save money.


Quality Conundrum: Complications Boost Hospital Profits

What's this? Private sector is overpaying for healthcare and promoting inefficient practices?! WELL, I NEVER!!!

That's why we can't keep assuming that doctors are completely altruistic and all-knowing.

Edit: It's similar to the growing problem of letting universities set their own terms.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 21 2013 20:42 GMT
#6875
Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia's warnings on judicial activism appear to have gained a new chapter at the Utah Bar Association's 2013 summer convention.

The Aspen Times reported Sunday that Scalia drew upon the Holocaust as an example of how judicial activism can lead to problems. According to the Utah Bar Association's website, Scalia was slated to be the keynote speaker for the 2013 Summer Convention event, which was held from July 17-20 in Snowmass, Colo.

Via The Aspen Times:

Scalia opened his talk with a reference to the Holocaust, which happened to occur in a society that was, at the time, “the most advanced country in the world.” One of the many mistakes that Germany made in the 1930s was that judges began to interpret the law in ways that reflected “the spirit of the age.” When judges accept this sort of moral authority, as Scalia claims they’re doing now in the U.S., they get themselves and society into trouble.

About a month ago, Scalia delivered a speech to the North Carolina Bar Association, stressing his concern about how moralist judges are growing more prevalent. He classifies the Constitution as a living document that has laws of the land serve as a guide to interpreting changing circumstances.

"We have become addicted to abstract moralizing," Scalia said last month. "I am questioning the sanity of having value-laden judgments made by judges."


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18866 Posts
July 21 2013 20:47 GMT
#6876
Everyone loves some Antonin "My values aren't values" Scalia proselytizing
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44180 Posts
July 21 2013 20:49 GMT
#6877
Is he not aware that Hitler gassed the gays? Using the Holocaust as an example of what happens when judges get too much leeway with an obvious reference to removing legal blocks to homosexuals being granted equal citizen rights is really fucking dumb.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22452 Posts
July 21 2013 20:51 GMT
#6878
So he went from just being hypocritical to comparing his colleagues to Holocaust supporters.

Well that escalated quickly.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
July 21 2013 21:04 GMT
#6879
On July 22 2013 05:49 KwarK wrote:
Is he not aware that Hitler gassed the gays? Using the Holocaust as an example of what happens when judges get too much leeway with an obvious reference to removing legal blocks to homosexuals being granted equal citizen rights is really fucking dumb.

I'm sure he is. He's saying that judges were enablers, and they shouldn't have been.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
July 21 2013 21:04 GMT
#6880
On July 22 2013 05:42 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia's warnings on judicial activism appear to have gained a new chapter at the Utah Bar Association's 2013 summer convention.

The Aspen Times reported Sunday that Scalia drew upon the Holocaust as an example of how judicial activism can lead to problems. According to the Utah Bar Association's website, Scalia was slated to be the keynote speaker for the 2013 Summer Convention event, which was held from July 17-20 in Snowmass, Colo.

Via The Aspen Times:

Scalia opened his talk with a reference to the Holocaust, which happened to occur in a society that was, at the time, “the most advanced country in the world.” One of the many mistakes that Germany made in the 1930s was that judges began to interpret the law in ways that reflected “the spirit of the age.” When judges accept this sort of moral authority, as Scalia claims they’re doing now in the U.S., they get themselves and society into trouble.

About a month ago, Scalia delivered a speech to the North Carolina Bar Association, stressing his concern about how moralist judges are growing more prevalent. He classifies the Constitution as a living document that has laws of the land serve as a guide to interpreting changing circumstances.

"We have become addicted to abstract moralizing," Scalia said last month. "I am questioning the sanity of having value-laden judgments made by judges."


Source

Isn't Scalia one of the judges that overturned parts of the VRA last month? >_>
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