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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14103 Posts
March 18 2016 03:23 GMT
#67721
They can say that they don't want the candidate because he doesn't respect the 2nd amendment and go basically even on the whole deal. Southern democrats can't get elected if the NRA is against them. Fighting against the hillary/obama evil spooky voodo machine is just extra jelly beans.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Seeker *
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
Where dat snitch at?37058 Posts
March 18 2016 03:26 GMT
#67722
lol @ new OP pic...
ModeratorPeople ask me, "Seeker, what are you seeking?" My answer? "Sleep, damn it! Always sleep!"
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23635 Posts
March 18 2016 03:32 GMT
#67723
Woot! Get to see Bernie again in WA!

Hillary only came by for private fundraisers. I don't think she's had a "public" appearance in WA since 94.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-18 03:42:14
March 18 2016 03:41 GMT
#67724
On March 18 2016 12:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
Hillary only came by for private fundraisers. I don't think she's had a "public" appearance in WA since 94.

Don't worry, I'm sure you'll be able to go see her in DC at her inauguration.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
March 18 2016 03:48 GMT
#67725
On March 18 2016 12:23 Sermokala wrote:
They can say that they don't want the candidate because he doesn't respect the 2nd amendment and go basically even on the whole deal. Southern democrats can't get elected if the NRA is against them. Fighting against the hillary/obama evil spooky voodo machine is just extra jelly beans.


Yeah but they can do that equally well-hell, probably better, if they can get him to say something they hate-if they have a hearing.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23635 Posts
March 18 2016 04:04 GMT
#67726
On March 18 2016 12:41 kwizach wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2016 12:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
Hillary only came by for private fundraisers. I don't think she's had a "public" appearance in WA since 94.

Don't worry, I'm sure you'll be able to go see her in DC at her inauguration.


You payin?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
March 18 2016 04:11 GMT
#67727
you mean coronation.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
March 18 2016 04:20 GMT
#67728
obligatory yaaas queen

GH, i have an honest question. do you sincerely think that you have some insight into the fundamental fabric of american society that everyone else is missing? cuz honestly, that's the vibe i get from you a lot of the time. like, you get it but somehow most people here don't.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23635 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-18 04:27:28
March 18 2016 04:22 GMT
#67729
On March 18 2016 13:11 oneofthem wrote:
you mean coronation.


I think DWS and the Republican rule guy have made it clear that the nomination process is supposed to be a grandiose coronation of the candidate they pick, not an awarding of the nomination to the candidate the people choose.

That would be fine if they didn't claim the process was about choosing a nominee, but was for generating excitement/press around who the party elites have chosen.


On March 18 2016 13:20 ticklishmusic wrote:
obligatory yaaas queen

GH, i have an honest question. do you sincerely think that you have some insight into the fundamental fabric of american society that everyone else is missing? cuz honestly, that's the vibe i get from you a lot of the time. like, you get it but somehow most people here don't.


Do you have an example in mind?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Lord Tolkien
Profile Joined November 2012
United States12083 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-18 04:29:01
March 18 2016 04:24 GMT
#67730
On March 18 2016 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2016 09:51 Lord Tolkien wrote:
On March 18 2016 09:43 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On March 18 2016 08:43 Sermokala wrote:
Whats a desernable difference between socialists and communists in your opinion?


I thought socialism is an economic policy, whereas communism is a political one?

...wat.

It should be noted by all theoretical terms, Bernie Sanders is assuredly not a socialist. A social democrat perhaps, but not a socialist.


It's fairly rare that people use socialism to mean something else than social democracy. I'm not comfortable just stating that's the case everywhere else in Europe, but:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_of_Switzerland

The Social Democratic Party of Switzerland (also rendered as Swiss Socialist Party [...] French: Parti socialiste suisse (translates to French: Swiss Socialist Party)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Party_(France)
The Socialist Party (French: Parti socialiste [paʁti sɔsjaˈlist], PS) is a social-democratic[4] political party in France, and the largest party of the French centre-left.

Indeed; modern socialist parties have since the 80s and 90s largely transitioned into "social democratic" parties, but the label of socialism stayed despite not being quite historically or theoretically accurate. There is no clarion call for the overthrow or dismantlement of market economies and the international capitalist system, merely (extensive) reform of it. In the traditional sense, modern socialist parties have abandoned the core socialist (and communist) tenet of developing a post-capitalist system.

On March 18 2016 10:02 Sbrubbles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2016 09:51 Lord Tolkien wrote:
On March 18 2016 09:43 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On March 18 2016 08:43 Sermokala wrote:
Whats a desernable difference between socialists and communists in your opinion?


I thought socialism is an economic policy, whereas communism is a political one?

...wat.

Neither communism nor socialism (nebulous terms that they are) can be solely described as a political or an economic theory: Marx is the father of political economy after all, and was insistent that you cannot separate politics from economics, because economic systems have inherently political outcomes and impacts; the ideologies that followed him share in this structural theory of the deep inter-connection of the economy and politics.

It should be noted by all theoretical terms, Bernie Sanders is assuredly not a socialist. A social democrat perhaps, but not a socialist.

I'm about to go to sleep, but I'll elaborate in my next post as to a more proper definition of the two


A small correction, Marx wasn't the father of political economy, as at the time all economics was called political economics, and he certainly wasn't the first to talk about the state and the economy together, so it is more precise to give Adam Smith that title if anyone.

Fair enough, you are quite correct. Nonetheless, the impact of Marx on the field is undeniable: he's not considered one of the three fathers of Social Science (alongside Durkheim and Weber) for nothing, after all.


On March 18 2016 09:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2016 09:51 Lord Tolkien wrote:
On March 18 2016 09:43 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On March 18 2016 08:43 Sermokala wrote:
Whats a desernable difference between socialists and communists in your opinion?


I thought socialism is an economic policy, whereas communism is a political one?

...wat.

Neither communism nor socialism (nebulous terms that they are) can be solely described as a political or an economic theory: Marx is the father of political economy after all, and was insistent that you cannot separate politics from economics, because economic systems have inherently political outcomes and impacts; the ideologies that followed him share in this structural theory of the deep inter-connection of the economy and politics.

It should be noted by all theoretical terms, Bernie Sanders is assuredly not a socialist. A social democrat perhaps, but not a socialist.

I'm about to go to sleep, but I'll elaborate in my next post as to a more proper definition of the two


Okay thanks I was under the impression that socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production, whereas communism is a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state... And I read those two definitions as nuanced and slightly different (albeit possibly related).

+ Show Spoiler [wall of text] +
To understand the difference, you must first understand the basis of Marx's theory of history, the concept of dialectical materialism. To start, Marx and later communist/socialist thinkers base their long-view of history upon the Hegelian (well, really Kantian but I digress) method of "thesis, antithesis, synthesis". That is to say, a proposition or status quo is inevitably challenged by a critique of it (and it's flaws), and the conflict between the two would eventually give birth to a new synthesis (which would become the new thesis, and thus restart the cycle).

Applying this to history, Marx viewed the evolution of human society as one of constant struggle and change, as wealth grew and human society grew more complex, as prior modes of governance and wealth distribution were challenged in major epochal upheavals. He thus categorized human history and social development into several phases. In prehistory, when humans were hunter-gatherers, we were in a "primitive communist" system. As agriculture developed and private property formed, we moved towards a slave-holding society, and later towards a feudal social order. Eventually, The old feudal order would itself give way towards a rising capitalistic middle class, the bourgeoisie, as capitalism developed, and the French Revolution happened (this is a seminal event that is still widely studied and analyzed by Marxists and critical scholars [for good reason, the French Revolution is without a doubt the most important historical event of the last 500 years, without which modern society would be utterly alien to us]).

Communism and socialism are by in large similar: a communist is a socialist, but not every socialist is a communist. They both have the same ideological roots, and although the umbrella of "socialism" is extremely wide. Both, essentially, seek a post-capitalist state where wealth and the means of production are distributed among the population as a whole, with equality as the core tenet of their beliefs, but, in the traditional Marxian dialectic (and later elucidated by Leninist thought), a "socialist" state is to eventually give way to the "communist" state. The socialist state is, in Marx's work, the transitory step towards achieving the communist utopia, where the capitalist state and economy, borne down by it's flaws (of which Marx has written on extensively, and remain a highly relevant topic), would eventually collapse (brought down by a "crisis of abundance"), or be overthrown by a revolution of the proletariat. This was usually depicted as violent: Marx was writing during the 19th century after all: the French Revolution was fresh on his mind, as were the myriad other revolutionary struggles between the forces of liberalism and reaction during the period.

As Marx saw it, the socialist state would see the redistribution of wealth and the means of production (capital) to the working classes, who would gain ownership of their own livelihoods from the capitalist class. "To each according to his contribution." Eventually, Marx posits, this revolution would spread globally, creating a global "dictatorship of the proletariat" (which in the original sense can be seen as a global direct democracy), after production reaches "post-scarcity" levels (that is to say, everyone would have whatever they need, and be able to do whatever work or leisure they found engaging or driven towards). This has generally mischaracterized as being a society where everyone is entirely equal in capital and pay (it isn't: it is largely about the fulfillment of all human needs). It's ultimately a Utopian fantasy, but it is a powerful one, as the late 19th and 20th centuries have shown.

Now, Marx and Engels were generally vague as to how a "socialist" state would be organized, and how in practice such a transition to a "communist" state would occur. Which has led to the countless, and bitter, divides within the umbrella of international socialism itself. Does the transition from a capitalist society to socialist society require violent revolution? Can it be done within the system (i.e. can the capitalist system be torn down through democracy as opposed to revolution)? Must it be top down (done by an authoritarian vanguard party, as posited by Lenin?), or from the grassroots (a true "anarchist" revolution). Really, outside of a common goal of transitioning to a post-capitalist system, there's basically no agreement whatsoever.

Thus what constitutes a socialist in the traditional sense can really be defined as most anything provided they seek the end of the capitalist system and the establishment of a collectivist system of economy and political power, of one form or another (the anarchists will disagree with the Marxist-Leninists who disagree with the democratic socialists, etc). They may see no need to push forward towards the "communist" state, or they may still see the need for it. Either way.

Now, what is a communist? Mostly it refers to those socialists who adhere to the doctrines of Lenin. Principally, that in order to achieve and push forward a proletariat revolution, there must be a professional "vanguard" party of the politically-conscious working class in order to organize, lead, and spread a mass-action revolution for socialist movements to succeed. After a successful revolution, the vanguard party would take over the apparatuses of state, and, following this truncated form of a "dictatorship of the proletariat", by necessity to manage the state and economy for a transition towards a communist society, after which the state would simply "wither away". Or so they posit. There were significant doctrinal and ideological divides following the Russian Revolution between the Leninists and the rest of the socialist -isms (which had already been deeply divided over World War One), which lead to a major schism and the Marxist-Leninist parties adopting the "communist" label.

...and that's the difference, really.

tl;dr: socialist is a very broad term, and communist is a subsection of socialists, the primary difference is whether or not they espouse Marxist-Leninism and Maoism or not.


And to reiterate, no, Bernie Sanders isn't really a socialist. He's not looking for the overthrow of the capitalist system (after all, a minimum wage is a capitalist construct, not a socialist one), and the Scandinavian social democracies are still market economies where free enterprise is not actually curtailed (and capital not collectivized).

+ Show Spoiler +
Note, I am also not a socialist. I remain an avowed social liberal, which is entirely different altogether. I to however prefer to know the tenets of the ideologies that I'm disagreeing with however.
"His father is pretty juicy tbh." ~WaveofShadow
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-18 04:33:14
March 18 2016 04:29 GMT
#67731
On March 18 2016 13:22 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2016 13:11 oneofthem wrote:
you mean coronation.


I think DWS and the Republican rule guy have made it clear that the nomination process is supposed to be a grandiose coronation of the candidate they pick, not an awarding of the nomination to the candidate the people choose.

That would be fine if they didn't claim the process was about choosing a nominee, but was for generating excitement/press around who the party elites have chosen.

You realize it is actually Bernie who's claiming that he doesn't think the candidate who gets the most pledged delegates out of the primary should necessarily get the nomination, right?
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-18 04:29:49
March 18 2016 04:29 GMT
#67732
i cant rule out strategic use of political process to advance to at least partial socialism by sanders. i.e. nationalization of a variety of sectors from banking to education
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-18 05:07:31
March 18 2016 04:30 GMT
#67733
I was really disappointed when Broad City had Hillary Clinton on in last night's episode, seems like the characters and the show's demographic should be Bernie.
Lord Tolkien
Profile Joined November 2012
United States12083 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-18 04:41:47
March 18 2016 04:40 GMT
#67734
On March 18 2016 13:29 oneofthem wrote:
i cant rule out strategic use of political process to advance to at least partial socialism by sanders. i.e. nationalization of a variety of sectors from banking to education

The nationalization of economic sectors is not necessarily an indicator of socialism, though it is a "socialist plank", but that's really not that surprising or scary (we've implemented many of those over the last 150 years).

For instance heavy subsidization of higher education is something fairly commonplace in other developed countries outside the United States, and saying universal public education is a necessarily socialist institution is rather disingenuous.
"His father is pretty juicy tbh." ~WaveofShadow
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23635 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-18 04:41:47
March 18 2016 04:41 GMT
#67735
On March 18 2016 13:29 kwizach wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2016 13:22 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 18 2016 13:11 oneofthem wrote:
you mean coronation.


I think DWS and the Republican rule guy have made it clear that the nomination process is supposed to be a grandiose coronation of the candidate they pick, not an awarding of the nomination to the candidate the people choose.

That would be fine if they didn't claim the process was about choosing a nominee, but was for generating excitement/press around who the party elites have chosen.

You realize it is actually Bernie who's claiming that he doesn't think the candidate who gets the most pledged delegates out of the primary should necessarily get the nomination, right?


Of course I do (although that's not what he said). I don't see what that has to do with my point though?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
March 18 2016 04:49 GMT
#67736
On March 18 2016 13:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2016 13:29 kwizach wrote:
On March 18 2016 13:22 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 18 2016 13:11 oneofthem wrote:
you mean coronation.


I think DWS and the Republican rule guy have made it clear that the nomination process is supposed to be a grandiose coronation of the candidate they pick, not an awarding of the nomination to the candidate the people choose.

That would be fine if they didn't claim the process was about choosing a nominee, but was for generating excitement/press around who the party elites have chosen.

You realize it is actually Bernie who's claiming that he doesn't think the candidate who gets the most pledged delegates out of the primary should necessarily get the nomination, right?

Of course I do (although that's not what he said). I don't see what that has to do with my point though?

You were railing against DWS for her disregard for the choice of the people voting, while the only candidate who's actually saying that the person with the most pledged delegates should not necessarily be the nominee is Sanders.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
JW_DTLA
Profile Joined December 2015
242 Posts
March 18 2016 04:49 GMT
#67737
On March 18 2016 13:30 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I was really disappointed when Broad City had Hillary Clinton in last night's episode, seems like the characters and the show's demographic should be Bernie.


Note they are women. I have talked to female Hillary fans. They find her inspiring as a woman. Something that may be difficult for posters here (myself included) to empathize with.
JW_DTLA
Profile Joined December 2015
242 Posts
March 18 2016 04:51 GMT
#67738
On March 18 2016 13:11 oneofthem wrote:
you mean coronation.


Is this a troll? Bernie gave it a good go, he at least had Michigan and hegot some real donations. Initially it looked like Hillary would just walk away with this, but then she did have to run. The debates and townhalls were pretty serious and they were numerous. Bernie got ~equal time at those things.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
March 18 2016 04:56 GMT
#67739
im curious about how you interpreted my post
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23635 Posts
March 18 2016 05:02 GMT
#67740
On March 18 2016 13:49 kwizach wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2016 13:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 18 2016 13:29 kwizach wrote:
On March 18 2016 13:22 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 18 2016 13:11 oneofthem wrote:
you mean coronation.


I think DWS and the Republican rule guy have made it clear that the nomination process is supposed to be a grandiose coronation of the candidate they pick, not an awarding of the nomination to the candidate the people choose.

That would be fine if they didn't claim the process was about choosing a nominee, but was for generating excitement/press around who the party elites have chosen.

You realize it is actually Bernie who's claiming that he doesn't think the candidate who gets the most pledged delegates out of the primary should necessarily get the nomination, right?

Of course I do (although that's not what he said). I don't see what that has to do with my point though?

You were railing against DWS for her disregard for the choice of the people voting, while the only candidate who's actually saying that the person with the most pledged delegates should not necessarily be the nominee is Sanders.



That wasn't railing against DWS, it was merely pointing out both "parties" agree that it's the party elites who (are supposed to) pick the candidate.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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