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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 14 2016 21:02 GMT
#66221
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-14 21:10:18
March 14 2016 21:03 GMT
#66222
I mean clearly we need defined labels when interacting with people. IMO every person should be required to wear a sleeve label that denotes their, race, religion, nationality, income, and sexual orientation, so that EVERYONE has the necessary information before interacting with anyone.
On March 15 2016 05:56 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2016 05:52 oneofthem wrote:
it's not about profit, it is about cost. there is really no reason to load the terms

Costs cut into profits, so they are relevant. If the food is 100% safe, then the information shouldn't be a problem. It should be a boon to the product, since it is safer than non-GMO food. But it sounds like they don't want to spend the money on marketing to dispel these purported myths about GMOs. So they will persist because people don't trust where their food comes from.

yeah, and government needs to release all the information regarding chem trails!

On March 15 2016 06:05 ticklishmusic wrote:
There is a very low, but definitely extant, chance that certain GMO's where genes are introduced from various sources can code for proteins which cause allergies for some people. It sucks. However, it's like any number of generally very safe chemicals used in the manufacture of any number of everyday goods but causes a reaction in some people.

To be a little lame, despite what our very wise Founding Fathers said, not every man is created equal. We react to different things in different ways, and in this context this means I have a weird skin condition caused by mystery things and P6 has a mystery spice allergy. I'm fairly sure most people have their own weird little tics and allergies to completely innocuous and unknown substances.

GMO's aren't the problem. Labeling isn't the solution. It's the bewildering complexity of interactions that go into life that science is unable to fully understand, track and document that results in these things. You could just as easily be allergic to tomatoes from Chile instead of Mexico (dunno if they grow tomatoes in those two places, but you know what I mean).

I mean, that's why I said, short of protein/gene expression breakdown on every food, labeling for GMO doesn't work

Especially when we're talking about a scientifically illiterate America.
liftlift > tsm
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-14 21:14:41
March 14 2016 21:05 GMT
#66223
There is a very low, but definitely extant, chance that certain GMO's where genes are introduced from various sources can code for proteins which cause allergies for some people. It sucks. However, it's like any number of generally very safe chemicals used in the manufacture of any number of everyday goods but causes a reaction in some people.

To be a little lame, despite what our very wise Founding Fathers said, not every man is created equal. We react to different things in different ways, and in this context this means I have a weird skin condition caused by mystery things and P6 has a mystery spice allergy. I'm fairly sure most people have their own weird little tics and allergies to completely innocuous and unknown substances.

GMO's aren't the problem. Labeling isn't the solution. It's the bewildering complexity of interactions that go into life that science is unable to fully understand, track and document that results in these things. You could just as easily be allergic to tomatoes from Chile instead of Mexico (dunno if they grow tomatoes in those two places, but you know what I mean).

EDIT: may I also say I like this sort of discussion much more? Nice way to start the week. Happy Pi Day!
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12610 Posts
March 14 2016 21:11 GMT
#66224
so Bernie should win Illinois pretty handily and Ohio will be pretty close, given the recent polls I've seen (especially Illinois, he's at -6 and +2 amongst likely voters only so that should be ez). Florida and NC should still go to Hillary and Florida should be close to the polls given that it's a closed primary. Missouri, I have no idea.
No will to live, no wish to die
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
March 14 2016 21:12 GMT
#66225
On March 15 2016 06:05 ticklishmusic wrote:
GMO's aren't the problem. Labeling isn't the solution. It's the bewildering complexity of interactions that go into life that science is unable to fully understand, track and document that results in these things.


I blame the shitty bonds we see all throughout organic life. I don't have these issues in the semiconductor industry!
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28916 Posts
March 14 2016 21:12 GMT
#66226
On March 15 2016 05:59 oBlade wrote:
Perhaps mandatory GMO labeling, if it served to raise the price of food by increasing non-GMO demand, could help raise wages in agriculture and curb the demand for illegal labor.


I actually think there's something to the 'food is too inexpensive' argument. Obviously I also see the counter-argument and obviously I don't want poor people to starve, but food being this inexpensive does seem to have the adverse effects of a) people waste significantly more (and watching people throw out beef cuz it's two days past expiration date makes me genuinely sad) b) mostly every link in the food industry chain is underpaid.

Can't just increase prices without making other adjustments, but I like the idea at least, of more people being involved in smaller scale food production.
Moderator
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
March 14 2016 21:14 GMT
#66227
On March 15 2016 06:12 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2016 05:59 oBlade wrote:
Perhaps mandatory GMO labeling, if it served to raise the price of food by increasing non-GMO demand, could help raise wages in agriculture and curb the demand for illegal labor.


I actually think there's something to the 'food is too inexpensive' argument. Obviously I also see the counter-argument and obviously I don't want poor people to starve, but food being this inexpensive does seem to have the adverse effects of a) people waste significantly more (and watching people throw out beef cuz it's two days past expiration date makes me genuinely sad) b) mostly every link in the food industry chain is underpaid.

Can't just increase prices without making other adjustments, but I like the idea at least, of more people being involved in smaller scale food production.

This has a lot more to do with American food subsidies, such as corn and powdered milk; and a lot less to do with GMO.

That being said, patenting of genes is fucking dumb, and our patent system needs to be fucking upgraded already.
*cue John Oliver voice*
"It's *current year*!, I mean come on!"
liftlift > tsm
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States6646 Posts
March 14 2016 21:21 GMT
#66228
On March 15 2016 06:12 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2016 05:59 oBlade wrote:
Perhaps mandatory GMO labeling, if it served to raise the price of food by increasing non-GMO demand, could help raise wages in agriculture and curb the demand for illegal labor.


I actually think there's something to the 'food is too inexpensive' argument. Obviously I also see the counter-argument and obviously I don't want poor people to starve, but food being this inexpensive does seem to have the adverse effects of a) people waste significantly more (and watching people throw out beef cuz it's two days past expiration date makes me genuinely sad) b) mostly every link in the food industry chain is underpaid.

Can't just increase prices without making other adjustments, but I like the idea at least, of more people being involved in smaller scale food production.

Yes, but on the other hand, if someone at poverty level eats "out" then they're spending at least 2-3 hours of minimum wage on food per day.

It's true there's a lot of waste (in the USA or first world generally I guess), and it'd be great to funnel all of the waste somewhere (a lot of it is, whether through volunteering or whatever, but a lot isn't), whether to the poor, biofuels, pet food, livestock feed, compost. It's definitely a hard problem to optimize.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
March 14 2016 21:22 GMT
#66229
obama should endorse hillary if she is in some danger. this attempt to placate young reddit voters is just disgusting
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Ghostcom
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark4783 Posts
March 14 2016 21:35 GMT
#66230
Hey guys, some people think vaccines causes autism. Sciences has said that it 100% for certain does not. I still think we should accommodate these concerned consumers and allow their kids to get measles. Then we can slowly win them over (or let them go extinct by a modern version of natural selection). + Show Spoiler +
That was sarcasm, but seriously, the anti-GMO and the anti-vaxxer movements is similar to a frighteningly degree


Seriously, you are going to have to come up with a better argument if you want to impose costs on others by making completely arbitrary regulations.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 14 2016 21:45 GMT
#66231
On March 15 2016 06:35 Ghostcom wrote:
Hey guys, some people think vaccines causes autism. Sciences has said that it 100% for certain does not. I still think we should accommodate these concerned consumers and allow their kids to get measles. Then we can slowly win them over (or let them go extinct by a modern version of natural selection). + Show Spoiler +
That was sarcasm, but seriously, the anti-GMO and the anti-vaxxer movements is similar to a frighteningly degree


Seriously, you are going to have to come up with a better argument if you want to impose costs on others by making completely arbitrary regulations.

Anti-vaxxers were completely incorrect and caused a lot of damage due to their movement. However, I don't think the master plan of calling them stupid and irrational was that effective in curbing the damage. But I bet if made the people feel good, which is what matter.

If people are concerned what is in their food, mocking them for being irrational just going to make them double down. So as smart as you think you are, you're only doing damage to make yourself feel like you are smarter.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-14 21:51:03
March 14 2016 21:49 GMT
#66232
On March 15 2016 06:45 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2016 06:35 Ghostcom wrote:
Hey guys, some people think vaccines causes autism. Sciences has said that it 100% for certain does not. I still think we should accommodate these concerned consumers and allow their kids to get measles. Then we can slowly win them over (or let them go extinct by a modern version of natural selection). + Show Spoiler +
That was sarcasm, but seriously, the anti-GMO and the anti-vaxxer movements is similar to a frighteningly degree


Seriously, you are going to have to come up with a better argument if you want to impose costs on others by making completely arbitrary regulations.

Anti-vaxxers were completely incorrect and caused a lot of damage due to their movement. However, I don't think the master plan of calling them stupid and irrational was that effective in curbing the damage. But I bet if made the people feel good, which is what matter.

If people are concerned what is in their food, mocking them for being irrational just going to make them double down. So as smart as you think you are, you're only doing damage to make yourself feel like you are smarter.

Except when it comes to Trump. In that case, literally Nazi morons.
On March 15 2016 05:48 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2016 05:43 wei2coolman wrote:
On March 15 2016 05:39 Plansix wrote:
On March 15 2016 05:32 Ghostcom wrote:
On March 15 2016 05:17 Plansix wrote:
On March 15 2016 05:09 Ghostcom wrote:
On March 15 2016 05:05 Plansix wrote:
On March 15 2016 04:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
Well that's labeling ingredients and not GMO/non-GMO, isn't it?

Unless you are allergic to some version GMO wheat, but are fine with organic? Or you aren’t really allergic, but it fucks you up real good and you spend the next day running to the bathroom. That is how people how can’t drink milk live.

Food should provide people with information on what it is. Not was scientist claim is “exactly the same as” because if it was exactly the same, we wouldn’t call it GMO. Just let people know and they will decide.

Part of the resistance to GMOs is due to this resistance to label them, TBH.


Do you have any confirmed cases of someone being allergic to a GMO variant but not to the "natural" variant? I can't recall a single credible case report.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/allergic-to-science-proteins-and-allergens-in-our-genetically-engineered-food/

Scientific America did a some research and found it was a risk. Maybe not a serious risk that warrants panic or avoid the tech. But if I was prone to allergies already, I would want to know what I was eating.

So the real question: Is it safe enough to deny the people buying the food this information?


The article you linked states the EXACT opposite of what you are saying. Half the article is even dedicated to DEBUNKING this sentence:

[GE crops] may produce new allergens and toxins[...]


Just to make sure no one misses this part - the quoted sentence is WRONG and the article specifically argues so!!!!!

Oh and it even finishes off with this tidbit which answers the question I posed and had you actually bothered to read what you linked you would have avoided the egg you now have on your face:

It's also worth noting as Pamela Ronald did in this space two years ago:

There is broad scientific consensus that genetically engineered crops currently on the market are safe to eat. After 14 years of cultivation and a cumulative total of 2 billion acres planted, no adverse health or environmental effects have resulted from commercialization of genetically engineered crops.


Arguing for GMO-labeling due to health concerns is downright misguided and ignorant.

The argument boils down to this: Some people want labels on GMOs so they can make decisions. They don’t feel they are perfectly safe. Science has tested them and says they are perfectly safe. People are not 100% convinced and still want labels.

To the options are:

A: provide labels and people buy what they want. On a long enough time line, maybe the general public gets over their concern

Or

B: don’t provide labels and continue to have the discussion.

Personally, I don’t see a reason not to provide labels. The only way people’s perception is going to change is if they know what they are eating. Without that information, they will just have to rely on rumor and conclusions based on incomplete information. The only reason not to provide labels is some desire to make people trust something they would rather just test for themselves.

I don't think anyone is against useful labeling.
Problem is gmo labeling isn't useful.

That is fine, but don’t expect people to trust you or anyone else. They are concerned about this and the standard response is: “Trust science, its fine. We have tested things in the past and they have never turned out to be harmful later on.”

The concern over GMOs may not be valid, but telling people to not worry about it isn’t a very convincing argument. The alternative is to label the foods and earn the public trust over team, which is far more likely a more productive, consumer friendly route.

So criticism about an argument from ignorance isn't a valid response?
liftlift > tsm
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28916 Posts
March 14 2016 21:51 GMT
#66233
It's really easy to play the 'don't insult people' game until the point where you're genuinely afraid they're gonna fuck up the world.
Moderator
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-14 22:04:52
March 14 2016 21:55 GMT
#66234
One is people asking for labels on food.

The other is a billionaire that is telling his supporters to beat up protesters and he will pay for their legal bills. And he is running for a job that gives him control of the FBI, CIA, NASA and nukes. And he blames everything on China, mexico and wants to "Make America Great Again".

Gee, wonder why they get treated differently? Maybe cause they are different?

Edit: criticism of an argument from ignorance is totally valid. It just doesn't really solve the problem that there is some distrust around mass market food today.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
March 14 2016 22:04 GMT
#66235
On March 15 2016 06:55 Plansix wrote:
One is people asking for labels on food.

The other is a billionaire that is telling his supporters to beat up protesters and he will pay for their legal bills. And he is running for a job that gives him control of the FBI, CIA, NASA and nukes. And he blames everything on China, mexico and wants to "Make America Great Again".

Gee, wonder why they get treated differently? Maybe cause they are different?


Do you even watch any of his talk? He literally says "I don't blame China, they're like grandmaster Chess players. They're playing the game better than us". I mean, I know you hate Trump, but come on, if you're going to talk about policy talk, at least accurate portray his stance. Also, no talk about how a certain female presidential candidate who's under investigation by the FBI, might become president who has control of the FBI? 10/10.


https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/candidate.php?id=N00000528

https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/candidate.php?id=N00023864

Also, interesting campaign spending breakdown. Unsurprising, the guy who's funding is own campaign is frugal with his money, while the socialist democrat is spending 3.5 times as much.

liftlift > tsm
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 14 2016 22:07 GMT
#66236
I've seen enough Trump to make my decision on exactly what type of person he is and if it he qualified. I live 8 years of a moron being President, I see no need to repeat it.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 14 2016 22:09 GMT
#66237
Utah lawmakers are setting aside millions of dollars for a legal showdown with the federal government over control of public lands in a fight fueled by the same rightwing activism that inspired an armed standoff in Oregon.

Republican legislators have earmarked $4.5m in taxpayer funds for a potential lawsuit, which would seek state control of more than 31m acres of land that the federal government currently manages within Utah’s borders.

The substantial budget allocation and the increasingly serious threat of litigation put Utah in a position to be the next frontier in the contentious dispute over public lands in the west, with anti-government activists organizing in recent years to protest environmental and wildlife regulations that they say unfairly restrict ranching, logging and other land uses.

Conservative lawmakers have for months considered pursuing a high-stakes and expensive lawsuit, which officials now estimate could cost up to $14m total. The creation of a formal fund last week marks the first time the GOP-controlled legislature has set aside money for a legal battle that environmentalists say would be a waste of public dollars and, if successful, a catastrophe for wildlife and natural resources.

The push comes as the federal government is aggressively targeting ultra-conservative activists who have staged armed protests against the same kind of land-use regulations that Utah officials hope to eliminate.

Cliven Bundy, the Nevada rancher who refused to pay grazing fees and organized an infamous 2014 standoff with government officials, is now behind bars awaiting trial on a wide range of serious felony charges. His sons Ammon and Ryan Bundy, who led an armed takeover of a wildlife refuge in Oregon to protest the treatment of local ranchers, are also facing prosecution and potentially decades in prison for their demonstrations.

Building on the momentum of the Bundys’ protests – which attracted a number of Utah activists and energized the anti-government movement across the west – state leaders in Utah are hoping to challenge the US government in court, arguing that the state has the authority to regulate public lands.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12610 Posts
March 14 2016 22:09 GMT
#66238
On March 15 2016 07:04 wei2coolman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2016 06:55 Plansix wrote:
One is people asking for labels on food.

The other is a billionaire that is telling his supporters to beat up protesters and he will pay for their legal bills. And he is running for a job that gives him control of the FBI, CIA, NASA and nukes. And he blames everything on China, mexico and wants to "Make America Great Again".

Gee, wonder why they get treated differently? Maybe cause they are different?


Do you even watch any of his talk? He literally says "I don't blame China, they're like grandmaster Chess players. They're playing the game better than us".


I wish I wouldn't have to point out that your quote demonstrates that Plansix portrays Trump's position accurately... If you say that you don't blame China for doing something, it means China is doing it, and it adds the information that you don't blame them for doing it. When you say that Trump blames everything on China, it means China is doing it. That's the same thing.
No will to live, no wish to die
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
March 14 2016 22:10 GMT
#66239
On March 15 2016 07:09 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2016 07:04 wei2coolman wrote:
On March 15 2016 06:55 Plansix wrote:
One is people asking for labels on food.

The other is a billionaire that is telling his supporters to beat up protesters and he will pay for their legal bills. And he is running for a job that gives him control of the FBI, CIA, NASA and nukes. And he blames everything on China, mexico and wants to "Make America Great Again".

Gee, wonder why they get treated differently? Maybe cause they are different?


Do you even watch any of his talk? He literally says "I don't blame China, they're like grandmaster Chess players. They're playing the game better than us".


I wish I wouldn't have to point out that your quote demonstrates that Plansix portrays Trump's position accurately... If you say that you don't blame China for doing something, it means China is doing it, and it adds the information that you don't blame them for doing it. When you say that Trump blames everything on China, it means China is doing it. That's the same thing.

Literally the next sentence is "I blame our people, they don't know how to negotiate. They're politicians not business men."
liftlift > tsm
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12610 Posts
March 14 2016 22:13 GMT
#66240
On March 15 2016 07:10 wei2coolman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2016 07:09 Nebuchad wrote:
On March 15 2016 07:04 wei2coolman wrote:
On March 15 2016 06:55 Plansix wrote:
One is people asking for labels on food.

The other is a billionaire that is telling his supporters to beat up protesters and he will pay for their legal bills. And he is running for a job that gives him control of the FBI, CIA, NASA and nukes. And he blames everything on China, mexico and wants to "Make America Great Again".

Gee, wonder why they get treated differently? Maybe cause they are different?


Do you even watch any of his talk? He literally says "I don't blame China, they're like grandmaster Chess players. They're playing the game better than us".


I wish I wouldn't have to point out that your quote demonstrates that Plansix portrays Trump's position accurately... If you say that you don't blame China for doing something, it means China is doing it, and it adds the information that you don't blame them for doing it. When you say that Trump blames everything on China, it means China is doing it. That's the same thing.

Literally the next sentence is "I blame our people, they don't know how to negotiate. They're politicians not business men."


He blames your people for not being able to prevent China from doing the things that Plansix says he accuses them of doing.
No will to live, no wish to die
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