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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On March 06 2016 06:43 ZeaL. wrote:
There was once a time in my life where I lamented how asians are negatively affected by affirmative action. But now I'm not 16.
You're trying to be snarky here, but it's actually a relevant point that mostly gets ignored in these discussions.
A young adult entering post-secondary, or entering the work force for the first time, does not care about systemic biases or what supposed privileges they have, when they're competing on an individual level with other people.
And someone who is at a secure point in their life will have much more opportunity to care about things on a societal level instead of an individual one.
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On March 06 2016 06:54 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2016 06:43 ZeaL. wrote:
There was once a time in my life where I lamented how asians are negatively affected by affirmative action. But now I'm not 16. You're trying to be snarky here, but it's actually a relevant point that mostly gets ignored in these discussions. A young adult entering post-secondary, or entering the work force for the first time, does not care about systemic biases or what supposed privileges they have, when they're competing on an individual level with other people. And someone who is at a secure point in their life will have much more opportunity to care about things on a societal level instead of an individual one.
People can't even acknowledge that people are being incarcerated, beaten, and killed while having their constitutional rights trampled. Sorry if well-off Asian kids not getting into their first choice isn't what most people think is the important part of the conversation that's not being absorbed.
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On March 06 2016 06:48 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2016 06:41 WhiteDog wrote:On March 06 2016 06:40 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2016 06:36 WhiteDog wrote:What I don't understand is that everyone believe the success of Trump has anything to do with education / discourse (it's the left or the right), and not with reality/the economy. What about the fact that the poor white population is in a bad state and face a significant degradation of its life conditions ? I linked this a few month ago on the increasing death rates of the white men in the US. That those real problems express themselves politically through the caricatural behavior of Trump and xenophobia is sad (and, to be fair, recurrent throughout history). But you can't just wash away Trump by saying his supporters are stupid and that's it. There are people that actually need help and that could welcome another solution, less caricatural and xenophobic than Trump's. So your saying that what (some) Trump supporters really want is to vote for Bernie? No I'm saying some people might have real source of discontent, and that maybe they feel the left do not speak to them. I agree with you that poor people in America (be they white or black) are in a bad state but to change that you need government assistance. Cutting taxes across the board is not going to significantly help these people since the poor already pay very little in taxes. Free Healthcare, cheaper educations, higher min wage are all things that can help improve their lives. The irony is that they all policies of the left, not the right. So why exactly are these people still wanting to vote for Republicans? Why are they rallying to a man who wants to cut taxes on the rich and build a wall to keep out foreigners? edit: Its poor uninsured people with no chance of ever getting coverage because of per-existing conditions protesting against the ACA all over again. its utterly backwards.
I'm pretty sure discontent towards immigration is the most important explanation for Trump's success. So there you have why they don't vote for the left : immigration is never discussed except in very manichean terms, and racism (not only of Trump's supporters, but the whole idea of race) is the best way to split people who actually have the same interests in different groups. Now the problem is that the desire of unity and equality despite differences is hardly if not ever supported nowadays - in the left and in the right - at least from where I stand (since I'm not from the US, I watch that from afar).
Fighting against ACA is not backwards if you believe in the idea of us (white) against them (black) and that you are sure that the ACA (or even taxation) is a form of redistribution from you to them (see Lee Atwater's interview) - which might even be true from an objective point of view. Rich vs poor is as much an abstraction as white vs black, and imposing one of those two scheme in the mind of people is also at the core of politics.
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On March 06 2016 06:58 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2016 06:54 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 06 2016 06:43 ZeaL. wrote:
There was once a time in my life where I lamented how asians are negatively affected by affirmative action. But now I'm not 16. You're trying to be snarky here, but it's actually a relevant point that mostly gets ignored in these discussions. A young adult entering post-secondary, or entering the work force for the first time, does not care about systemic biases or what supposed privileges they have, when they're competing on an individual level with other people. And someone who is at a secure point in their life will have much more opportunity to care about things on a societal level instead of an individual one. People can't even acknowledge that people are being incarcerated, beaten, and killed while having their constitutional rights trampled. Sorry if well-off Asian kids not getting into their first choice isn't what most people think is the important part of the conversation that's not being absorbed.
Should probably note that this is the kind of rhetoric that has made me ignore most of your posts.
Sure, there are serious issues in the United States, but if you haven't noticed, this is the Team Liquid forum. A place where people talk politics and trade opinions, even if they don't necessarily do it civilly. Not your personal soap box.
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On March 06 2016 06:59 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2016 06:48 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2016 06:41 WhiteDog wrote:On March 06 2016 06:40 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2016 06:36 WhiteDog wrote:What I don't understand is that everyone believe the success of Trump has anything to do with education / discourse (it's the left or the right), and not with reality/the economy. What about the fact that the poor white population is in a bad state and face a significant degradation of its life conditions ? I linked this a few month ago on the increasing death rates of the white men in the US. That those real problems express themselves politically through the caricatural behavior of Trump and xenophobia is sad (and, to be fair, recurrent throughout history). But you can't just wash away Trump by saying his supporters are stupid and that's it. There are people that actually need help and that could welcome another solution, less caricatural and xenophobic than Trump's. So your saying that what (some) Trump supporters really want is to vote for Bernie? No I'm saying some people might have real source of discontent, and that maybe they feel the left do not speak to them. I agree with you that poor people in America (be they white or black) are in a bad state but to change that you need government assistance. Cutting taxes across the board is not going to significantly help these people since the poor already pay very little in taxes. Free Healthcare, cheaper educations, higher min wage are all things that can help improve their lives. The irony is that they all policies of the left, not the right. So why exactly are these people still wanting to vote for Republicans? Why are they rallying to a man who wants to cut taxes on the rich and build a wall to keep out foreigners? edit: Its poor uninsured people with no chance of ever getting coverage because of per-existing conditions protesting against the ACA all over again. its utterly backwards. I'm pretty sure discontent towards immigration is the most important explanation for Trump's success. So there you have why they don't vote for the left : immigration is never discussed except in very manichean terms, and racism (not only of Trump's supporters, but the whole idea of race) is the best way to split people who actually have the same interests in different groups. Now the problem is that the desire of unity and equality despite differences is hardly if not ever supported nowadays - in the left and in the right - at least from where I stand (since I'm not from the US, I watch that from afar).
And that is the bit I don't understand. If my life is shit then I would vote for the guy who is trying to make my life less shit every time. I don't give a damn about immigration. I care about having having health insurance and about making rent.
Even if I were to believe that immigrants are the reason my life is in the way it is (it's not). I'm still more concerned about my immediate needs then limiting immigration. That is not going to fix the current issues.
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On March 06 2016 07:06 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2016 06:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2016 06:54 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 06 2016 06:43 ZeaL. wrote:
There was once a time in my life where I lamented how asians are negatively affected by affirmative action. But now I'm not 16. You're trying to be snarky here, but it's actually a relevant point that mostly gets ignored in these discussions. A young adult entering post-secondary, or entering the work force for the first time, does not care about systemic biases or what supposed privileges they have, when they're competing on an individual level with other people. And someone who is at a secure point in their life will have much more opportunity to care about things on a societal level instead of an individual one. People can't even acknowledge that people are being incarcerated, beaten, and killed while having their constitutional rights trampled. Sorry if well-off Asian kids not getting into their first choice isn't what most people think is the important part of the conversation that's not being absorbed. Should probably note that this is the kind of rhetoric that has made me ignore most of your posts. Sure, there are serious issues in the United States, but if you haven't noticed, this is the Team Liquid forum. A place where people talk politics and trade opinions, even if they don't necessarily do it civilly. Not your personal soap box.
That's the point. People talk about stuff with no appreciation for the real human costs. That you're defending the argument that was wiping away systemic racism with a gesture and proclaiming how my rhetoric is worthy of dismissal, is emblematic of what's so amazingly absurd about it.
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On March 06 2016 06:54 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2016 06:43 ZeaL. wrote:
There was once a time in my life where I lamented how asians are negatively affected by affirmative action. But now I'm not 16. You're trying to be snarky here, but it's actually a relevant point that mostly gets ignored in these discussions. A young adult entering post-secondary, or entering the work force for the first time, does not care about systemic biases or what supposed privileges they have, when they're competing on an individual level with other people. And someone who is at a secure point in their life will have much more opportunity to care about things on a societal level instead of an individual one.
Put more simply, when a person feels like they're fighting for survival, they might feel anger towards any group that benefits from their loss?
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On March 06 2016 07:07 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2016 06:59 WhiteDog wrote:On March 06 2016 06:48 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2016 06:41 WhiteDog wrote:On March 06 2016 06:40 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2016 06:36 WhiteDog wrote:What I don't understand is that everyone believe the success of Trump has anything to do with education / discourse (it's the left or the right), and not with reality/the economy. What about the fact that the poor white population is in a bad state and face a significant degradation of its life conditions ? I linked this a few month ago on the increasing death rates of the white men in the US. That those real problems express themselves politically through the caricatural behavior of Trump and xenophobia is sad (and, to be fair, recurrent throughout history). But you can't just wash away Trump by saying his supporters are stupid and that's it. There are people that actually need help and that could welcome another solution, less caricatural and xenophobic than Trump's. So your saying that what (some) Trump supporters really want is to vote for Bernie? No I'm saying some people might have real source of discontent, and that maybe they feel the left do not speak to them. I agree with you that poor people in America (be they white or black) are in a bad state but to change that you need government assistance. Cutting taxes across the board is not going to significantly help these people since the poor already pay very little in taxes. Free Healthcare, cheaper educations, higher min wage are all things that can help improve their lives. The irony is that they all policies of the left, not the right. So why exactly are these people still wanting to vote for Republicans? Why are they rallying to a man who wants to cut taxes on the rich and build a wall to keep out foreigners? edit: Its poor uninsured people with no chance of ever getting coverage because of per-existing conditions protesting against the ACA all over again. its utterly backwards. I'm pretty sure discontent towards immigration is the most important explanation for Trump's success. So there you have why they don't vote for the left : immigration is never discussed except in very manichean terms, and racism (not only of Trump's supporters, but the whole idea of race) is the best way to split people who actually have the same interests in different groups. Now the problem is that the desire of unity and equality despite differences is hardly if not ever supported nowadays - in the left and in the right - at least from where I stand (since I'm not from the US, I watch that from afar). And that is the bit I don't understand. If my life is shit then I would vote for the guy who is trying to make my life less shit every time. I don't give a damn about immigration. I care about having having health insurance and about making rent. Even if I were to believe that immigrants are the reason my life is in the way it is (it's not). I'm still more concerned about my immediate needs then limiting immigration. That is not going to fix the current issues.
Well you're thinking from an individual standpoint, most people I believe see this collectively, for their family/group/class/race or the country, and for them indirectly.
Altho, I'm not sure about that.
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On March 06 2016 06:59 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2016 06:48 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2016 06:41 WhiteDog wrote:On March 06 2016 06:40 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2016 06:36 WhiteDog wrote:What I don't understand is that everyone believe the success of Trump has anything to do with education / discourse (it's the left or the right), and not with reality/the economy. What about the fact that the poor white population is in a bad state and face a significant degradation of its life conditions ? I linked this a few month ago on the increasing death rates of the white men in the US. That those real problems express themselves politically through the caricatural behavior of Trump and xenophobia is sad (and, to be fair, recurrent throughout history). But you can't just wash away Trump by saying his supporters are stupid and that's it. There are people that actually need help and that could welcome another solution, less caricatural and xenophobic than Trump's. So your saying that what (some) Trump supporters really want is to vote for Bernie? No I'm saying some people might have real source of discontent, and that maybe they feel the left do not speak to them. I agree with you that poor people in America (be they white or black) are in a bad state but to change that you need government assistance. Cutting taxes across the board is not going to significantly help these people since the poor already pay very little in taxes. Free Healthcare, cheaper educations, higher min wage are all things that can help improve their lives. The irony is that they all policies of the left, not the right. So why exactly are these people still wanting to vote for Republicans? Why are they rallying to a man who wants to cut taxes on the rich and build a wall to keep out foreigners? edit: Its poor uninsured people with no chance of ever getting coverage because of per-existing conditions protesting against the ACA all over again. its utterly backwards. I'm pretty sure discontent towards immigration is the most important explanation for Trump's success. So there you have why they don't vote for the left : immigration is never discussed except in very manichean terms, and racism (not only of Trump's supporters, but the whole idea of race) is the best way to split people who actually have the same interests in different groups. Now the problem is that the desire of unity and equality despite differences is hardly if not ever supported nowadays - in the left and in the right - at least from where I stand (since I'm not from the US, I watch that from afar). Fighting against ACA is not backwards if you believe in the idea of us (white) against them (black) and that you are sure that the ACA (or even taxation) is a form of redistribution from you to them (see Lee Atwater's interview) - which might even be true from an objective point of view. Rich vs poor is as much an abstraction as white vs black, and imposing one of those two scheme in the mind of people is also at the core of politics.
I'm quite certain that if you're trying to narrow down the opinions and views of 100 million people (give or take) into singular, specific points, you are going to be wrong every time.
The most important question, before any talks of political points even matter, is figuring out how much people actually care about the political race for the politics.
On March 06 2016 07:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2016 07:06 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 06 2016 06:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2016 06:54 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 06 2016 06:43 ZeaL. wrote:
There was once a time in my life where I lamented how asians are negatively affected by affirmative action. But now I'm not 16. You're trying to be snarky here, but it's actually a relevant point that mostly gets ignored in these discussions. A young adult entering post-secondary, or entering the work force for the first time, does not care about systemic biases or what supposed privileges they have, when they're competing on an individual level with other people. And someone who is at a secure point in their life will have much more opportunity to care about things on a societal level instead of an individual one. People can't even acknowledge that people are being incarcerated, beaten, and killed while having their constitutional rights trampled. Sorry if well-off Asian kids not getting into their first choice isn't what most people think is the important part of the conversation that's not being absorbed. Should probably note that this is the kind of rhetoric that has made me ignore most of your posts. Sure, there are serious issues in the United States, but if you haven't noticed, this is the Team Liquid forum. A place where people talk politics and trade opinions, even if they don't necessarily do it civilly. Not your personal soap box. That's the point. People talk about stuff with no appreciation for the real human costs. That you're defending the argument that was wiping away systemic racism with a gesture and proclaiming how my rhetoric is worthy of dismissal, is emblematic of what's so amazingly absurd about it.
And this is my point. You don't discuss anything. You point at people and say "How dare you discuss this, black people are dying!"
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On March 06 2016 07:13 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2016 06:59 WhiteDog wrote:On March 06 2016 06:48 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2016 06:41 WhiteDog wrote:On March 06 2016 06:40 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2016 06:36 WhiteDog wrote:What I don't understand is that everyone believe the success of Trump has anything to do with education / discourse (it's the left or the right), and not with reality/the economy. What about the fact that the poor white population is in a bad state and face a significant degradation of its life conditions ? I linked this a few month ago on the increasing death rates of the white men in the US. That those real problems express themselves politically through the caricatural behavior of Trump and xenophobia is sad (and, to be fair, recurrent throughout history). But you can't just wash away Trump by saying his supporters are stupid and that's it. There are people that actually need help and that could welcome another solution, less caricatural and xenophobic than Trump's. So your saying that what (some) Trump supporters really want is to vote for Bernie? No I'm saying some people might have real source of discontent, and that maybe they feel the left do not speak to them. I agree with you that poor people in America (be they white or black) are in a bad state but to change that you need government assistance. Cutting taxes across the board is not going to significantly help these people since the poor already pay very little in taxes. Free Healthcare, cheaper educations, higher min wage are all things that can help improve their lives. The irony is that they all policies of the left, not the right. So why exactly are these people still wanting to vote for Republicans? Why are they rallying to a man who wants to cut taxes on the rich and build a wall to keep out foreigners? edit: Its poor uninsured people with no chance of ever getting coverage because of per-existing conditions protesting against the ACA all over again. its utterly backwards. I'm pretty sure discontent towards immigration is the most important explanation for Trump's success. So there you have why they don't vote for the left : immigration is never discussed except in very manichean terms, and racism (not only of Trump's supporters, but the whole idea of race) is the best way to split people who actually have the same interests in different groups. Now the problem is that the desire of unity and equality despite differences is hardly if not ever supported nowadays - in the left and in the right - at least from where I stand (since I'm not from the US, I watch that from afar). Fighting against ACA is not backwards if you believe in the idea of us (white) against them (black) and that you are sure that the ACA (or even taxation) is a form of redistribution from you to them (see Lee Atwater's interview) - which might even be true from an objective point of view. Rich vs poor is as much an abstraction as white vs black, and imposing one of those two scheme in the mind of people is also at the core of politics. I'm quite certain that if you're trying to narrow down the opinions and views of 100 million people (give or take) into singular, specific points, you are going to be wrong every time. The most important question, before any talks of political points even matter, is figuring out how much people actually care about the political race for the politics.
You are right but I'm talking about something specific, not the entire system - just the poor white men that might desire to vote for Trump. Anyway, when talking about society it's always about incomplete abstraction, there's no unified response to Trump's success or to american politics or to any social problem - for sure.
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On March 06 2016 07:07 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2016 06:59 WhiteDog wrote:On March 06 2016 06:48 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2016 06:41 WhiteDog wrote:On March 06 2016 06:40 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2016 06:36 WhiteDog wrote:What I don't understand is that everyone believe the success of Trump has anything to do with education / discourse (it's the left or the right), and not with reality/the economy. What about the fact that the poor white population is in a bad state and face a significant degradation of its life conditions ? I linked this a few month ago on the increasing death rates of the white men in the US. That those real problems express themselves politically through the caricatural behavior of Trump and xenophobia is sad (and, to be fair, recurrent throughout history). But you can't just wash away Trump by saying his supporters are stupid and that's it. There are people that actually need help and that could welcome another solution, less caricatural and xenophobic than Trump's. So your saying that what (some) Trump supporters really want is to vote for Bernie? No I'm saying some people might have real source of discontent, and that maybe they feel the left do not speak to them. I agree with you that poor people in America (be they white or black) are in a bad state but to change that you need government assistance. Cutting taxes across the board is not going to significantly help these people since the poor already pay very little in taxes. Free Healthcare, cheaper educations, higher min wage are all things that can help improve their lives. The irony is that they all policies of the left, not the right. So why exactly are these people still wanting to vote for Republicans? Why are they rallying to a man who wants to cut taxes on the rich and build a wall to keep out foreigners? edit: Its poor uninsured people with no chance of ever getting coverage because of per-existing conditions protesting against the ACA all over again. its utterly backwards. I'm pretty sure discontent towards immigration is the most important explanation for Trump's success. So there you have why they don't vote for the left : immigration is never discussed except in very manichean terms, and racism (not only of Trump's supporters, but the whole idea of race) is the best way to split people who actually have the same interests in different groups. Now the problem is that the desire of unity and equality despite differences is hardly if not ever supported nowadays - in the left and in the right - at least from where I stand (since I'm not from the US, I watch that from afar). And that is the bit I don't understand. If my life is shit then I would vote for the guy who is trying to make my life less shit every time. I don't give a damn about immigration. I care about having having health insurance and about making rent. Even if I were to believe that immigrants are the reason my life is in the way it is (it's not). I'm still more concerned about my immediate needs then limiting immigration. That is not going to fix the current issues.
All Republicans will say they're against illegal immigration (same as pro-life, it's just something everyone has to at least say when asked no matter how important they think it is). But the thing is party hasn't actually done much on that front. And that's a huge factors in Trump's popularity - people are actually sick of the Republican party and government in general not actually listening to and helping them. He has other policies (tax plan, healthcare) that are more solid, but the core is actually dissatisfaction in the establishment which leads to trust in an outsider.
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On March 06 2016 07:13 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2016 06:59 WhiteDog wrote:On March 06 2016 06:48 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2016 06:41 WhiteDog wrote:On March 06 2016 06:40 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2016 06:36 WhiteDog wrote:What I don't understand is that everyone believe the success of Trump has anything to do with education / discourse (it's the left or the right), and not with reality/the economy. What about the fact that the poor white population is in a bad state and face a significant degradation of its life conditions ? I linked this a few month ago on the increasing death rates of the white men in the US. That those real problems express themselves politically through the caricatural behavior of Trump and xenophobia is sad (and, to be fair, recurrent throughout history). But you can't just wash away Trump by saying his supporters are stupid and that's it. There are people that actually need help and that could welcome another solution, less caricatural and xenophobic than Trump's. So your saying that what (some) Trump supporters really want is to vote for Bernie? No I'm saying some people might have real source of discontent, and that maybe they feel the left do not speak to them. I agree with you that poor people in America (be they white or black) are in a bad state but to change that you need government assistance. Cutting taxes across the board is not going to significantly help these people since the poor already pay very little in taxes. Free Healthcare, cheaper educations, higher min wage are all things that can help improve their lives. The irony is that they all policies of the left, not the right. So why exactly are these people still wanting to vote for Republicans? Why are they rallying to a man who wants to cut taxes on the rich and build a wall to keep out foreigners? edit: Its poor uninsured people with no chance of ever getting coverage because of per-existing conditions protesting against the ACA all over again. its utterly backwards. I'm pretty sure discontent towards immigration is the most important explanation for Trump's success. So there you have why they don't vote for the left : immigration is never discussed except in very manichean terms, and racism (not only of Trump's supporters, but the whole idea of race) is the best way to split people who actually have the same interests in different groups. Now the problem is that the desire of unity and equality despite differences is hardly if not ever supported nowadays - in the left and in the right - at least from where I stand (since I'm not from the US, I watch that from afar). Fighting against ACA is not backwards if you believe in the idea of us (white) against them (black) and that you are sure that the ACA (or even taxation) is a form of redistribution from you to them (see Lee Atwater's interview) - which might even be true from an objective point of view. Rich vs poor is as much an abstraction as white vs black, and imposing one of those two scheme in the mind of people is also at the core of politics. I'm quite certain that if you're trying to narrow down the opinions and views of 100 million people (give or take) into singular, specific points, you are going to be wrong every time. The most important question, before any talks of political points even matter, is figuring out how much people actually care about the political race for the politics. Show nested quote +On March 06 2016 07:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2016 07:06 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 06 2016 06:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2016 06:54 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 06 2016 06:43 ZeaL. wrote:
There was once a time in my life where I lamented how asians are negatively affected by affirmative action. But now I'm not 16. You're trying to be snarky here, but it's actually a relevant point that mostly gets ignored in these discussions. A young adult entering post-secondary, or entering the work force for the first time, does not care about systemic biases or what supposed privileges they have, when they're competing on an individual level with other people. And someone who is at a secure point in their life will have much more opportunity to care about things on a societal level instead of an individual one. People can't even acknowledge that people are being incarcerated, beaten, and killed while having their constitutional rights trampled. Sorry if well-off Asian kids not getting into their first choice isn't what most people think is the important part of the conversation that's not being absorbed. Should probably note that this is the kind of rhetoric that has made me ignore most of your posts. Sure, there are serious issues in the United States, but if you haven't noticed, this is the Team Liquid forum. A place where people talk politics and trade opinions, even if they don't necessarily do it civilly. Not your personal soap box. That's the point. People talk about stuff with no appreciation for the real human costs. That you're defending the argument that was wiping away systemic racism with a gesture and proclaiming how my rhetoric is worthy of dismissal, is emblematic of what's so amazingly absurd about it. And this is my point. You don't discuss anything. You point at people and say "How dare you discuss this, black people are dying!"
Well shit, I'm sorry I think black people dying and being abused takes priority over Asian kids not getting into their first choices when discussing systemic racism. Of course that makes me the absurd one...
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The whole immigration thing seems mostly like just an avenue to scapegoat so GOP candidates can score points. Illegals taking jobs? What you mean those shit paying jobs that are easy to get and readily available? Yea no one is hiring an illegal immigrant to jobs that pay well. The types of jobs they take are plentiful because there is a large turnover and a constant shuffle.
Worried about security? Well what can I say if you are worried about terrorists then maybe you should actually look at the numbers and see that white US citizens have gone on far more gun rampages then those done in the name of Islam.
About racism that has come up recently, well I don't know what to say? To deny it so completely and just dismiss it so effortlessly is an extraordinary claim and one that has been asserted with 0 evidence. Submit evidence or gtfo when making such bold claims.
The thing that irks me is that both sides basically point to those who are either on the extreme end of whatever ideology or those individuals who went so far (there will always be those that go to far and are counter productive to their own cause no matter the cause they are stumping for). They then take these smaller examples then say "look at this, this single example invalidates the entire train of thought behind them!" Its silly and just another way people are "playing to win" instead of actually trying to get something productive done. This mentality (which is amplified 1000x on the internet) has been leaking into politics for years. You would almost get the sense that people think that whatever ideology is opposite to them never has had a decent idea and that their perspective brings nothing to the table and that it would be better if they were all rounded up and killed.
Give me a break plz. Both the right and the left have things to offer society.....but not like this, not when they are seen purely as enemies of each other.
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On March 06 2016 07:19 Slaughter wrote:
The whole immigration thing seems mostly like just an avenue to scapegoat so GOP candidates can score points. Illegals taking jobs? What you mean those shit paying jobs that are easy to get and readily available? Yea no one is hiring an illegal immigrant to jobs that pay well. The types of jobs they take are plentiful because there is a large turnover and a constant shuffle.
Worried about security? Well what can I say if you are worried about terrorists then maybe you should actually look at the numbers and see that white US citizens have gone on far more gun rampages then those done in the name of Islam.
About racism that has come up recently, well I don't know what to say? To deny it so completely and just dismiss it so effortlessly is an extraordinary claim and one that has been asserted with 0 evidence. Submit evidence or gtfo when making such bold claims.
The thing that irks me is that both sides basically point to those who are either on the extreme end of whatever ideology or those individuals who went so far (there will always be those that go to far and are counter productive to their own cause no matter the cause they are stumping for). They then take these smaller examples then say "look at this, this single example invalidates the entire train of thought behind them!" Its silly and just another way people are "playing to win" instead of actually trying to get something productive done. This mentality (which is amplified 1000x on the internet) has been leaking into politics for years. You would almost get the sense that people think that whatever ideology is opposite to them never has had a decent idea and that their perspective brings nothing to the table and that it would be better if they were all rounded up and killed.
Give me a break plz. Both the right and the left have things to offer society.....but not like this, not when they are seen purely as enemies of each other.
I think that's why people like trump imo. The establishment right fucking hates him, and the left hates him. He unites people who hate both.
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On March 06 2016 07:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2016 07:13 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 06 2016 06:59 WhiteDog wrote:On March 06 2016 06:48 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2016 06:41 WhiteDog wrote:On March 06 2016 06:40 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2016 06:36 WhiteDog wrote:What I don't understand is that everyone believe the success of Trump has anything to do with education / discourse (it's the left or the right), and not with reality/the economy. What about the fact that the poor white population is in a bad state and face a significant degradation of its life conditions ? I linked this a few month ago on the increasing death rates of the white men in the US. That those real problems express themselves politically through the caricatural behavior of Trump and xenophobia is sad (and, to be fair, recurrent throughout history). But you can't just wash away Trump by saying his supporters are stupid and that's it. There are people that actually need help and that could welcome another solution, less caricatural and xenophobic than Trump's. So your saying that what (some) Trump supporters really want is to vote for Bernie? No I'm saying some people might have real source of discontent, and that maybe they feel the left do not speak to them. I agree with you that poor people in America (be they white or black) are in a bad state but to change that you need government assistance. Cutting taxes across the board is not going to significantly help these people since the poor already pay very little in taxes. Free Healthcare, cheaper educations, higher min wage are all things that can help improve their lives. The irony is that they all policies of the left, not the right. So why exactly are these people still wanting to vote for Republicans? Why are they rallying to a man who wants to cut taxes on the rich and build a wall to keep out foreigners? edit: Its poor uninsured people with no chance of ever getting coverage because of per-existing conditions protesting against the ACA all over again. its utterly backwards. I'm pretty sure discontent towards immigration is the most important explanation for Trump's success. So there you have why they don't vote for the left : immigration is never discussed except in very manichean terms, and racism (not only of Trump's supporters, but the whole idea of race) is the best way to split people who actually have the same interests in different groups. Now the problem is that the desire of unity and equality despite differences is hardly if not ever supported nowadays - in the left and in the right - at least from where I stand (since I'm not from the US, I watch that from afar). Fighting against ACA is not backwards if you believe in the idea of us (white) against them (black) and that you are sure that the ACA (or even taxation) is a form of redistribution from you to them (see Lee Atwater's interview) - which might even be true from an objective point of view. Rich vs poor is as much an abstraction as white vs black, and imposing one of those two scheme in the mind of people is also at the core of politics. I'm quite certain that if you're trying to narrow down the opinions and views of 100 million people (give or take) into singular, specific points, you are going to be wrong every time. The most important question, before any talks of political points even matter, is figuring out how much people actually care about the political race for the politics. On March 06 2016 07:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2016 07:06 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 06 2016 06:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2016 06:54 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 06 2016 06:43 ZeaL. wrote:
There was once a time in my life where I lamented how asians are negatively affected by affirmative action. But now I'm not 16. You're trying to be snarky here, but it's actually a relevant point that mostly gets ignored in these discussions. A young adult entering post-secondary, or entering the work force for the first time, does not care about systemic biases or what supposed privileges they have, when they're competing on an individual level with other people. And someone who is at a secure point in their life will have much more opportunity to care about things on a societal level instead of an individual one. People can't even acknowledge that people are being incarcerated, beaten, and killed while having their constitutional rights trampled. Sorry if well-off Asian kids not getting into their first choice isn't what most people think is the important part of the conversation that's not being absorbed. Should probably note that this is the kind of rhetoric that has made me ignore most of your posts. Sure, there are serious issues in the United States, but if you haven't noticed, this is the Team Liquid forum. A place where people talk politics and trade opinions, even if they don't necessarily do it civilly. Not your personal soap box. That's the point. People talk about stuff with no appreciation for the real human costs. That you're defending the argument that was wiping away systemic racism with a gesture and proclaiming how my rhetoric is worthy of dismissal, is emblematic of what's so amazingly absurd about it. And this is my point. You don't discuss anything. You point at people and say "How dare you discuss this, black people are dying!" Well shit, I'm sorry I think black people dying and being abused takes priority over Asian kids not getting into their first choices when discussing systemic racism. Of course that makes me the absurd one...
Again, not sure if you've noticed, but this is the Team Liquid forum, and the "US Politics Mega Thread". If you want to limit your discussions to Black People Dying, go ahead and make a thread for it. Just don't be so shocked when people talk about things you don't want to in something titled "Mega Thread".
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On March 06 2016 07:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2016 07:13 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 06 2016 06:59 WhiteDog wrote:On March 06 2016 06:48 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2016 06:41 WhiteDog wrote:On March 06 2016 06:40 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2016 06:36 WhiteDog wrote:What I don't understand is that everyone believe the success of Trump has anything to do with education / discourse (it's the left or the right), and not with reality/the economy. What about the fact that the poor white population is in a bad state and face a significant degradation of its life conditions ? I linked this a few month ago on the increasing death rates of the white men in the US. That those real problems express themselves politically through the caricatural behavior of Trump and xenophobia is sad (and, to be fair, recurrent throughout history). But you can't just wash away Trump by saying his supporters are stupid and that's it. There are people that actually need help and that could welcome another solution, less caricatural and xenophobic than Trump's. So your saying that what (some) Trump supporters really want is to vote for Bernie? No I'm saying some people might have real source of discontent, and that maybe they feel the left do not speak to them. I agree with you that poor people in America (be they white or black) are in a bad state but to change that you need government assistance. Cutting taxes across the board is not going to significantly help these people since the poor already pay very little in taxes. Free Healthcare, cheaper educations, higher min wage are all things that can help improve their lives. The irony is that they all policies of the left, not the right. So why exactly are these people still wanting to vote for Republicans? Why are they rallying to a man who wants to cut taxes on the rich and build a wall to keep out foreigners? edit: Its poor uninsured people with no chance of ever getting coverage because of per-existing conditions protesting against the ACA all over again. its utterly backwards. I'm pretty sure discontent towards immigration is the most important explanation for Trump's success. So there you have why they don't vote for the left : immigration is never discussed except in very manichean terms, and racism (not only of Trump's supporters, but the whole idea of race) is the best way to split people who actually have the same interests in different groups. Now the problem is that the desire of unity and equality despite differences is hardly if not ever supported nowadays - in the left and in the right - at least from where I stand (since I'm not from the US, I watch that from afar). Fighting against ACA is not backwards if you believe in the idea of us (white) against them (black) and that you are sure that the ACA (or even taxation) is a form of redistribution from you to them (see Lee Atwater's interview) - which might even be true from an objective point of view. Rich vs poor is as much an abstraction as white vs black, and imposing one of those two scheme in the mind of people is also at the core of politics. I'm quite certain that if you're trying to narrow down the opinions and views of 100 million people (give or take) into singular, specific points, you are going to be wrong every time. The most important question, before any talks of political points even matter, is figuring out how much people actually care about the political race for the politics. On March 06 2016 07:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2016 07:06 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 06 2016 06:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2016 06:54 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 06 2016 06:43 ZeaL. wrote:
There was once a time in my life where I lamented how asians are negatively affected by affirmative action. But now I'm not 16. You're trying to be snarky here, but it's actually a relevant point that mostly gets ignored in these discussions. A young adult entering post-secondary, or entering the work force for the first time, does not care about systemic biases or what supposed privileges they have, when they're competing on an individual level with other people. And someone who is at a secure point in their life will have much more opportunity to care about things on a societal level instead of an individual one. People can't even acknowledge that people are being incarcerated, beaten, and killed while having their constitutional rights trampled. Sorry if well-off Asian kids not getting into their first choice isn't what most people think is the important part of the conversation that's not being absorbed. Should probably note that this is the kind of rhetoric that has made me ignore most of your posts. Sure, there are serious issues in the United States, but if you haven't noticed, this is the Team Liquid forum. A place where people talk politics and trade opinions, even if they don't necessarily do it civilly. Not your personal soap box. That's the point. People talk about stuff with no appreciation for the real human costs. That you're defending the argument that was wiping away systemic racism with a gesture and proclaiming how my rhetoric is worthy of dismissal, is emblematic of what's so amazingly absurd about it. And this is my point. You don't discuss anything. You point at people and say "How dare you discuss this, black people are dying!" Well shit, I'm sorry I think black people dying and being abused takes priority over Asian kids not getting into their first choices when discussing systemic racism. Of course that makes me the absurd one...
I mean it might be somewhat important to understand how other people view/ignore the struggles of African Americans if you want them to be allies.
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On March 06 2016 07:19 Slaughter wrote:
The whole immigration thing seems mostly like just an avenue to scapegoat so GOP candidates can score points. Illegals taking jobs? What you mean those shit paying jobs that are easy to get and readily available? Yea no one is hiring an illegal immigrant to jobs that pay well. The types of jobs they take are plentiful because there is a large turnover and a constant shuffle.
Worried about security? Well what can I say if you are worried about terrorists then maybe you should actually look at the numbers and see that white US citizens have gone on far more gun rampages then those done in the name of Islam.
What if it's not about "stealing our jobs?" What if people just don't want millions of people coming into a country and living there illegally? There's a guy in California who's on the state bar and doesn't have legal status. Why shouldn't the USA have immigration reform, enforce the law, and actually control the borders? Your second point is interesting, but if you recall, statistically the weapon of choice for terrorists in the US is airliners, not guns.
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On March 06 2016 07:23 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2016 07:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2016 07:13 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 06 2016 06:59 WhiteDog wrote:On March 06 2016 06:48 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2016 06:41 WhiteDog wrote:On March 06 2016 06:40 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2016 06:36 WhiteDog wrote:What I don't understand is that everyone believe the success of Trump has anything to do with education / discourse (it's the left or the right), and not with reality/the economy. What about the fact that the poor white population is in a bad state and face a significant degradation of its life conditions ? I linked this a few month ago on the increasing death rates of the white men in the US. That those real problems express themselves politically through the caricatural behavior of Trump and xenophobia is sad (and, to be fair, recurrent throughout history). But you can't just wash away Trump by saying his supporters are stupid and that's it. There are people that actually need help and that could welcome another solution, less caricatural and xenophobic than Trump's. So your saying that what (some) Trump supporters really want is to vote for Bernie? No I'm saying some people might have real source of discontent, and that maybe they feel the left do not speak to them. I agree with you that poor people in America (be they white or black) are in a bad state but to change that you need government assistance. Cutting taxes across the board is not going to significantly help these people since the poor already pay very little in taxes. Free Healthcare, cheaper educations, higher min wage are all things that can help improve their lives. The irony is that they all policies of the left, not the right. So why exactly are these people still wanting to vote for Republicans? Why are they rallying to a man who wants to cut taxes on the rich and build a wall to keep out foreigners? edit: Its poor uninsured people with no chance of ever getting coverage because of per-existing conditions protesting against the ACA all over again. its utterly backwards. I'm pretty sure discontent towards immigration is the most important explanation for Trump's success. So there you have why they don't vote for the left : immigration is never discussed except in very manichean terms, and racism (not only of Trump's supporters, but the whole idea of race) is the best way to split people who actually have the same interests in different groups. Now the problem is that the desire of unity and equality despite differences is hardly if not ever supported nowadays - in the left and in the right - at least from where I stand (since I'm not from the US, I watch that from afar). Fighting against ACA is not backwards if you believe in the idea of us (white) against them (black) and that you are sure that the ACA (or even taxation) is a form of redistribution from you to them (see Lee Atwater's interview) - which might even be true from an objective point of view. Rich vs poor is as much an abstraction as white vs black, and imposing one of those two scheme in the mind of people is also at the core of politics. I'm quite certain that if you're trying to narrow down the opinions and views of 100 million people (give or take) into singular, specific points, you are going to be wrong every time. The most important question, before any talks of political points even matter, is figuring out how much people actually care about the political race for the politics. On March 06 2016 07:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2016 07:06 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 06 2016 06:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2016 06:54 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 06 2016 06:43 ZeaL. wrote:
There was once a time in my life where I lamented how asians are negatively affected by affirmative action. But now I'm not 16. You're trying to be snarky here, but it's actually a relevant point that mostly gets ignored in these discussions. A young adult entering post-secondary, or entering the work force for the first time, does not care about systemic biases or what supposed privileges they have, when they're competing on an individual level with other people. And someone who is at a secure point in their life will have much more opportunity to care about things on a societal level instead of an individual one. People can't even acknowledge that people are being incarcerated, beaten, and killed while having their constitutional rights trampled. Sorry if well-off Asian kids not getting into their first choice isn't what most people think is the important part of the conversation that's not being absorbed. Should probably note that this is the kind of rhetoric that has made me ignore most of your posts. Sure, there are serious issues in the United States, but if you haven't noticed, this is the Team Liquid forum. A place where people talk politics and trade opinions, even if they don't necessarily do it civilly. Not your personal soap box. That's the point. People talk about stuff with no appreciation for the real human costs. That you're defending the argument that was wiping away systemic racism with a gesture and proclaiming how my rhetoric is worthy of dismissal, is emblematic of what's so amazingly absurd about it. And this is my point. You don't discuss anything. You point at people and say "How dare you discuss this, black people are dying!" Well shit, I'm sorry I think black people dying and being abused takes priority over Asian kids not getting into their first choices when discussing systemic racism. Of course that makes me the absurd one... Again, not sure if you've noticed, but this is the Team Liquid forum, and the "US Politics Mega Thread". If you want to limit your discussions to Black People Dying, go ahead and make a thread for it. Just don't be so shocked when people talk about things you don't want to in something titled "Mega Thread".
You seem to be confused about the discussion that was taking place. The reason GreenHorizons was reacting that way wasn't that people were talking about something else than "black people dying", it was that people were actively denying the existence of institutional racism against African Americans.
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On March 06 2016 07:19 Slaughter wrote:
The whole immigration thing seems mostly like just an avenue to scapegoat so GOP candidates can score points. Illegals taking jobs? What you mean those shit paying jobs that are easy to get and readily available? Yea no one is hiring an illegal immigrant to jobs that pay well. The types of jobs they take are plentiful because there is a large turnover and a constant shuffle.
Worried about security? Well what can I say if you are worried about terrorists then maybe you should actually look at the numbers and see that white US citizens have gone on far more gun rampages then those done in the name of Islam.
About racism that has come up recently, well I don't know what to say? To deny it so completely and just dismiss it so effortlessly is an extraordinary claim and one that has been asserted with 0 evidence. Submit evidence or gtfo when making such bold claims.
The thing that irks me is that both sides basically point to those who are either on the extreme end of whatever ideology or those individuals who went so far (there will always be those that go to far and are counter productive to their own cause no matter the cause they are stumping for). They then take these smaller examples then say "look at this, this single example invalidates the entire train of thought behind them!" Its silly and just another way people are "playing to win" instead of actually trying to get something productive done. This mentality (which is amplified 1000x on the internet) has been leaking into politics for years. You would almost get the sense that people think that whatever ideology is opposite to them never has had a decent idea and that their perspective brings nothing to the table and that it would be better if they were all rounded up and killed.
Give me a break plz. Both the right and the left have things to offer society.....but not like this, not when they are seen purely as enemies of each other.
taking all the jobs while abusing the welfare state because they're lazy folks without jobs no less!
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On March 06 2016 07:27 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2016 07:23 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 06 2016 07:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2016 07:13 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 06 2016 06:59 WhiteDog wrote:On March 06 2016 06:48 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2016 06:41 WhiteDog wrote:On March 06 2016 06:40 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2016 06:36 WhiteDog wrote:What I don't understand is that everyone believe the success of Trump has anything to do with education / discourse (it's the left or the right), and not with reality/the economy. What about the fact that the poor white population is in a bad state and face a significant degradation of its life conditions ? I linked this a few month ago on the increasing death rates of the white men in the US. That those real problems express themselves politically through the caricatural behavior of Trump and xenophobia is sad (and, to be fair, recurrent throughout history). But you can't just wash away Trump by saying his supporters are stupid and that's it. There are people that actually need help and that could welcome another solution, less caricatural and xenophobic than Trump's. So your saying that what (some) Trump supporters really want is to vote for Bernie? No I'm saying some people might have real source of discontent, and that maybe they feel the left do not speak to them. I agree with you that poor people in America (be they white or black) are in a bad state but to change that you need government assistance. Cutting taxes across the board is not going to significantly help these people since the poor already pay very little in taxes. Free Healthcare, cheaper educations, higher min wage are all things that can help improve their lives. The irony is that they all policies of the left, not the right. So why exactly are these people still wanting to vote for Republicans? Why are they rallying to a man who wants to cut taxes on the rich and build a wall to keep out foreigners? edit: Its poor uninsured people with no chance of ever getting coverage because of per-existing conditions protesting against the ACA all over again. its utterly backwards. I'm pretty sure discontent towards immigration is the most important explanation for Trump's success. So there you have why they don't vote for the left : immigration is never discussed except in very manichean terms, and racism (not only of Trump's supporters, but the whole idea of race) is the best way to split people who actually have the same interests in different groups. Now the problem is that the desire of unity and equality despite differences is hardly if not ever supported nowadays - in the left and in the right - at least from where I stand (since I'm not from the US, I watch that from afar). Fighting against ACA is not backwards if you believe in the idea of us (white) against them (black) and that you are sure that the ACA (or even taxation) is a form of redistribution from you to them (see Lee Atwater's interview) - which might even be true from an objective point of view. Rich vs poor is as much an abstraction as white vs black, and imposing one of those two scheme in the mind of people is also at the core of politics. I'm quite certain that if you're trying to narrow down the opinions and views of 100 million people (give or take) into singular, specific points, you are going to be wrong every time. The most important question, before any talks of political points even matter, is figuring out how much people actually care about the political race for the politics. On March 06 2016 07:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2016 07:06 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 06 2016 06:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2016 06:54 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 06 2016 06:43 ZeaL. wrote:
There was once a time in my life where I lamented how asians are negatively affected by affirmative action. But now I'm not 16. You're trying to be snarky here, but it's actually a relevant point that mostly gets ignored in these discussions. A young adult entering post-secondary, or entering the work force for the first time, does not care about systemic biases or what supposed privileges they have, when they're competing on an individual level with other people. And someone who is at a secure point in their life will have much more opportunity to care about things on a societal level instead of an individual one. People can't even acknowledge that people are being incarcerated, beaten, and killed while having their constitutional rights trampled. Sorry if well-off Asian kids not getting into their first choice isn't what most people think is the important part of the conversation that's not being absorbed. Should probably note that this is the kind of rhetoric that has made me ignore most of your posts. Sure, there are serious issues in the United States, but if you haven't noticed, this is the Team Liquid forum. A place where people talk politics and trade opinions, even if they don't necessarily do it civilly. Not your personal soap box. That's the point. People talk about stuff with no appreciation for the real human costs. That you're defending the argument that was wiping away systemic racism with a gesture and proclaiming how my rhetoric is worthy of dismissal, is emblematic of what's so amazingly absurd about it. And this is my point. You don't discuss anything. You point at people and say "How dare you discuss this, black people are dying!" Well shit, I'm sorry I think black people dying and being abused takes priority over Asian kids not getting into their first choices when discussing systemic racism. Of course that makes me the absurd one... Again, not sure if you've noticed, but this is the Team Liquid forum, and the "US Politics Mega Thread". If you want to limit your discussions to Black People Dying, go ahead and make a thread for it. Just don't be so shocked when people talk about things you don't want to in something titled "Mega Thread". You seem to be confused about the discussion that was taking place. The reason GreenHorizons was reacting that way wasn't that people were talking about something else than "black people dying", it was that people were actively denying the existence of institutional racism against African Americans.
Again, as I said like two pages back, these kind of discussions devolve into jargon definitions more than they do the points. For example, what two people actually mean when they use the term "institutional racism", especially when one individual is arguing on a micro scale and the other jumps in with macro.
On March 06 2016 07:11 ZeaL. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2016 06:54 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 06 2016 06:43 ZeaL. wrote:
There was once a time in my life where I lamented how asians are negatively affected by affirmative action. But now I'm not 16. You're trying to be snarky here, but it's actually a relevant point that mostly gets ignored in these discussions. A young adult entering post-secondary, or entering the work force for the first time, does not care about systemic biases or what supposed privileges they have, when they're competing on an individual level with other people. And someone who is at a secure point in their life will have much more opportunity to care about things on a societal level instead of an individual one. Put more simply, when a person feels like they're fighting for survival, they might feel anger towards any group that benefits from their loss?
Not necessarily survival, but sure, more or less.
More importantly, though, if the reason they're "losing" is mostly historical and societal, there's going to be a complete detachment from it on a personal level. A black person isn't going to like "sorry you didn't get accepted, but the country was really racist but it's getting better" any more than a white person hearing "sorry you didn't get accepted, but there was severe racism here and helping to correct it will fix things faster". Among other examples.
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