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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Deathstar
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
9150 Posts
February 12 2016 21:38 GMT
#58141
On February 13 2016 06:34 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2016 06:28 Deathstar wrote:
On February 13 2016 06:14 KwarK wrote:
On February 13 2016 06:09 Deathstar wrote:
Dude we are living in the 21st century. Food for survival ship has departed. Food is for nutrition and pleasure. Many of the food sold today have the facade of having nutrition.

Many of the bread in stores today are total garbage. Like I said earlier, vegetables are less nutritious. We are eating food that taste and smell like they have something of value (following our instincts) but in reality do not. Bread is a good example because of how devoid of nutrition it is but it's marketed as something with fiber (very little if any) with pictures of wheat on it. Bread has nutrients in the same way a grape soda has antioxidants.

Bread has never been good for humans. It's still not. Ask any anthropologist.

And you still need to cite this claim that vegetables today don't have nutrients. We are eating more healthily today than at any point in the history of civilization. Where we go wrong is quantity. Malnutrition used to be a real issue in the people of Western Europe and America because they couldn't afford meat, eggs, vegetables and so forth and relied too heavily on bread. The issue these days is one of excess only, in terms of food quality you have never had it so good. This idea that a chicken 70 years ago was better is absurd, a chicken 70 years ago was unavailable.


We are not eating more healthily. What makes you think that? We have an obesity epidemic. Most of the country is either overweight, obese, or extremely obese, which bring about massive personal and social problems. Type 2 diabetes is rampant among children which is normally exclusive to adults. High blood pressure, cancer, strokes, etc. are now up.

Look at France. France is a developed country like the US but they have half the obesity rate than we do. Italy has an obese population of about 10%. I say France and Italy because these two countries are known for their famous cuisine. They have cultures revolving around fine food.

Excess is a problem. But why is excess our problem? We are all the same humans. It's our food that's shit. Our meat are mass produced with baby chicken (normal chicken used to be adults which are more healthy and tasty. Baby chickens taste worse) stuffed with fat, carbs, and antibiotics. Our vegetables ARE less nutritious (reasons can be argued but the decrease in nutrition is a fact). Our great food corporations have succeeded in producing so much calories but as a trade off fucked us in the nutrition department.

Aside from a few things (corn syrip mostly) your food is no more shit then our food.
The problem the US has with food is mentality.

A Cola in the US is the same as a Cola in Europe, but we don't drink 30 oz free refill cups of it at McDonalds tho.
It is all in the head and the culture.


Corn syrup is in almost everything here... Average Americans stand no chance against this onslaught.
rip passion
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4448 Posts
February 12 2016 21:39 GMT
#58142
On February 13 2016 06:34 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2016 06:28 Deathstar wrote:
On February 13 2016 06:14 KwarK wrote:
On February 13 2016 06:09 Deathstar wrote:
Dude we are living in the 21st century. Food for survival ship has departed. Food is for nutrition and pleasure. Many of the food sold today have the facade of having nutrition.

Many of the bread in stores today are total garbage. Like I said earlier, vegetables are less nutritious. We are eating food that taste and smell like they have something of value (following our instincts) but in reality do not. Bread is a good example because of how devoid of nutrition it is but it's marketed as something with fiber (very little if any) with pictures of wheat on it. Bread has nutrients in the same way a grape soda has antioxidants.

Bread has never been good for humans. It's still not. Ask any anthropologist.

And you still need to cite this claim that vegetables today don't have nutrients. We are eating more healthily today than at any point in the history of civilization. Where we go wrong is quantity. Malnutrition used to be a real issue in the people of Western Europe and America because they couldn't afford meat, eggs, vegetables and so forth and relied too heavily on bread. The issue these days is one of excess only, in terms of food quality you have never had it so good. This idea that a chicken 70 years ago was better is absurd, a chicken 70 years ago was unavailable.


We are not eating more healthily. What makes you think that? We have an obesity epidemic. Most of the country is either overweight, obese, or extremely obese, which bring about massive personal and social problems. Type 2 diabetes is rampant among children which is normally exclusive to adults. High blood pressure, cancer, strokes, etc. are now up.

Look at France. France is a developed country like the US but they have half the obesity rate than we do. Italy has an obese population of about 10%. I say France and Italy because these two countries are known for their famous cuisine. They have cultures revolving around fine food.

Excess is a problem. But why is excess our problem? We are all the same humans. It's our food that's shit. Our meat are mass produced with baby chicken (normal chicken used to be adults which are more healthy and tasty. Baby chickens taste worse) stuffed with fat, carbs, and antibiotics. Our vegetables ARE less nutritious (reasons can be argued but the decrease in nutrition is a fact). Our great food corporations have succeeded in producing so much calories but as a trade off fucked us in the nutrition department.

Aside from a few things (corn syrip mostly) your food is no more shit then our food.
The problem the US has with food is mentality.

A Cola in the US is the same as a Cola in Europe, but we don't drink 30 oz free refill cups of it at McDonalds tho.
It is all in the head and the culture.

?
I thought Europe banned GMOs? GMOs aren't good dude.Europe has the edge in food quality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-12 21:44:47
February 12 2016 21:42 GMT
#58143
On February 13 2016 06:37 Plansix wrote:
Sheep account was banned for being sheep.

We could bring this back to politics and the US’s problem with our weak food regulation and FDA. The McDonalds hamburger is a prime example of this, because they had a real struggle finding the beef in those burgers minute there.

Edit: I prefer organic milk because it keeps longer, but that has to do with how it is pasteurized over anything else.


I like organic milk because it tastes better and lasts longer. If it was actually whale jizz I might still drink it, I like it that much better than regular milk lol.

IIRC McD's actually has decent beef now (unsure about before). It's trimmings, aka the bits of cow that are too small to be sold for most purposes and left over from the rendering of all the cuts.

Also IDK but this conversation really makes me want a BigMac. Then again I haven't actually eaten today and I've been sitting in on our company's board meeting... sigh.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44287 Posts
February 12 2016 21:45 GMT
#58144
On February 13 2016 06:28 Deathstar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2016 06:14 KwarK wrote:
On February 13 2016 06:09 Deathstar wrote:
Dude we are living in the 21st century. Food for survival ship has departed. Food is for nutrition and pleasure. Many of the food sold today have the facade of having nutrition.

Many of the bread in stores today are total garbage. Like I said earlier, vegetables are less nutritious. We are eating food that taste and smell like they have something of value (following our instincts) but in reality do not. Bread is a good example because of how devoid of nutrition it is but it's marketed as something with fiber (very little if any) with pictures of wheat on it. Bread has nutrients in the same way a grape soda has antioxidants.

Bread has never been good for humans. It's still not. Ask any anthropologist.

And you still need to cite this claim that vegetables today don't have nutrients. We are eating more healthily today than at any point in the history of civilization. Where we go wrong is quantity. Malnutrition used to be a real issue in the people of Western Europe and America because they couldn't afford meat, eggs, vegetables and so forth and relied too heavily on bread. The issue these days is one of excess only, in terms of food quality you have never had it so good. This idea that a chicken 70 years ago was better is absurd, a chicken 70 years ago was unavailable.


We are not eating more healthily. What makes you think that? We have an obesity epidemic. Most of the country is either overweight, obese, or extremely obese, which bring about massive personal and social problems. Type 2 diabetes is rampant among children which is normally exclusive to adults. High blood pressure, cancer, strokes, etc. are now up.

Look at France. France is a developed country like the US but they have half the obesity rate than we do. Italy has an obese population of about 10%. I say France and Italy because these two countries are known for their famous cuisine. They have cultures revolving around fine food.

Excess is a problem. But why is excess our problem? We are all the same humans. It's our food that's shit. Our meat are mass produced with baby chicken (normal chicken used to be adults which are more healthy and tasty. Baby chickens taste worse) stuffed with fat, carbs, and antibiotics. Our vegetables ARE less nutritious (reasons can be argued but the decrease in nutrition is a fact). Our great food corporations have succeeded in producing so much calories but as a trade off fucked us in the nutrition department.

You said things used to be better so our basis of comparison is the past. The average American is eating much more healthily. Again you need to remember that regular access to meat, to eggs, to butter and so forth is an exception historically, not the norm. The norm is this bread that Plansix loves so much which is incredibly bad for you if not eaten as part of a varied diet.

The problem of excess is still a problem but you need to compare apples to apples. The fair comparison to make is not with a chicken today and a chicken 70 years ago, it's a chicken today and no chicken at all. It's with Walmart veg today and no veg.

We are eating more healthily. Hell, look at recruiting standards over time. We have a clear historical record of the physical shape of the American male population.

Eating too much food is a problem but quality of the diet of the average person has never been better. The old problem used to be that foods outside of the staples were unavailable, the new problem is we have too much of them.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 12 2016 21:47 GMT
#58145
On February 13 2016 06:38 Deathstar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2016 06:34 Gorsameth wrote:
On February 13 2016 06:28 Deathstar wrote:
On February 13 2016 06:14 KwarK wrote:
On February 13 2016 06:09 Deathstar wrote:
Dude we are living in the 21st century. Food for survival ship has departed. Food is for nutrition and pleasure. Many of the food sold today have the facade of having nutrition.

Many of the bread in stores today are total garbage. Like I said earlier, vegetables are less nutritious. We are eating food that taste and smell like they have something of value (following our instincts) but in reality do not. Bread is a good example because of how devoid of nutrition it is but it's marketed as something with fiber (very little if any) with pictures of wheat on it. Bread has nutrients in the same way a grape soda has antioxidants.

Bread has never been good for humans. It's still not. Ask any anthropologist.

And you still need to cite this claim that vegetables today don't have nutrients. We are eating more healthily today than at any point in the history of civilization. Where we go wrong is quantity. Malnutrition used to be a real issue in the people of Western Europe and America because they couldn't afford meat, eggs, vegetables and so forth and relied too heavily on bread. The issue these days is one of excess only, in terms of food quality you have never had it so good. This idea that a chicken 70 years ago was better is absurd, a chicken 70 years ago was unavailable.


We are not eating more healthily. What makes you think that? We have an obesity epidemic. Most of the country is either overweight, obese, or extremely obese, which bring about massive personal and social problems. Type 2 diabetes is rampant among children which is normally exclusive to adults. High blood pressure, cancer, strokes, etc. are now up.

Look at France. France is a developed country like the US but they have half the obesity rate than we do. Italy has an obese population of about 10%. I say France and Italy because these two countries are known for their famous cuisine. They have cultures revolving around fine food.

Excess is a problem. But why is excess our problem? We are all the same humans. It's our food that's shit. Our meat are mass produced with baby chicken (normal chicken used to be adults which are more healthy and tasty. Baby chickens taste worse) stuffed with fat, carbs, and antibiotics. Our vegetables ARE less nutritious (reasons can be argued but the decrease in nutrition is a fact). Our great food corporations have succeeded in producing so much calories but as a trade off fucked us in the nutrition department.

Aside from a few things (corn syrip mostly) your food is no more shit then our food.
The problem the US has with food is mentality.

A Cola in the US is the same as a Cola in Europe, but we don't drink 30 oz free refill cups of it at McDonalds tho.
It is all in the head and the culture.


Corn syrup is in almost everything here... Average Americans stand no chance against this onslaught.

I spent 10 minutes last week trying to find ketchup without corn syrup in it. I had to buy some free trade non-sense just to get sugar in my ketchup. If they put in plain cheerios, I’m done.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
February 12 2016 21:48 GMT
#58146
On February 13 2016 06:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
If billionaire Bloomberg does run as an indy like he says he will watch as the liberal vote gets split between bloomberg and the democrat nominee.

Easy win for the republicans if Bloomberg runs and throws a couple of bill at advertising.


Depends on who gets the party nominations, and tons of other factors.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44287 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-12 21:52:03
February 12 2016 21:48 GMT
#58147
On February 13 2016 06:39 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2016 06:34 Gorsameth wrote:
On February 13 2016 06:28 Deathstar wrote:
On February 13 2016 06:14 KwarK wrote:
On February 13 2016 06:09 Deathstar wrote:
Dude we are living in the 21st century. Food for survival ship has departed. Food is for nutrition and pleasure. Many of the food sold today have the facade of having nutrition.

Many of the bread in stores today are total garbage. Like I said earlier, vegetables are less nutritious. We are eating food that taste and smell like they have something of value (following our instincts) but in reality do not. Bread is a good example because of how devoid of nutrition it is but it's marketed as something with fiber (very little if any) with pictures of wheat on it. Bread has nutrients in the same way a grape soda has antioxidants.

Bread has never been good for humans. It's still not. Ask any anthropologist.

And you still need to cite this claim that vegetables today don't have nutrients. We are eating more healthily today than at any point in the history of civilization. Where we go wrong is quantity. Malnutrition used to be a real issue in the people of Western Europe and America because they couldn't afford meat, eggs, vegetables and so forth and relied too heavily on bread. The issue these days is one of excess only, in terms of food quality you have never had it so good. This idea that a chicken 70 years ago was better is absurd, a chicken 70 years ago was unavailable.


We are not eating more healthily. What makes you think that? We have an obesity epidemic. Most of the country is either overweight, obese, or extremely obese, which bring about massive personal and social problems. Type 2 diabetes is rampant among children which is normally exclusive to adults. High blood pressure, cancer, strokes, etc. are now up.

Look at France. France is a developed country like the US but they have half the obesity rate than we do. Italy has an obese population of about 10%. I say France and Italy because these two countries are known for their famous cuisine. They have cultures revolving around fine food.

Excess is a problem. But why is excess our problem? We are all the same humans. It's our food that's shit. Our meat are mass produced with baby chicken (normal chicken used to be adults which are more healthy and tasty. Baby chickens taste worse) stuffed with fat, carbs, and antibiotics. Our vegetables ARE less nutritious (reasons can be argued but the decrease in nutrition is a fact). Our great food corporations have succeeded in producing so much calories but as a trade off fucked us in the nutrition department.

Aside from a few things (corn syrip mostly) your food is no more shit then our food.
The problem the US has with food is mentality.

A Cola in the US is the same as a Cola in Europe, but we don't drink 30 oz free refill cups of it at McDonalds tho.
It is all in the head and the culture.

?
I thought Europe banned GMOs? GMOs aren't good dude.Europe has the edge in food quality.

Europe has GMOs and there is nothing intrinsically wrong with hem.

This topic really has brought out the crazies in the left. It's only a short jump from GMOs to vaccines and autism. Did we forget about science at some point on the organic food train?

Soon we're gonna have people coming out against pasteurization.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-12 22:06:10
February 12 2016 21:54 GMT
#58148
On February 13 2016 06:48 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2016 06:39 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
On February 13 2016 06:34 Gorsameth wrote:
On February 13 2016 06:28 Deathstar wrote:
On February 13 2016 06:14 KwarK wrote:
On February 13 2016 06:09 Deathstar wrote:
Dude we are living in the 21st century. Food for survival ship has departed. Food is for nutrition and pleasure. Many of the food sold today have the facade of having nutrition.

Many of the bread in stores today are total garbage. Like I said earlier, vegetables are less nutritious. We are eating food that taste and smell like they have something of value (following our instincts) but in reality do not. Bread is a good example because of how devoid of nutrition it is but it's marketed as something with fiber (very little if any) with pictures of wheat on it. Bread has nutrients in the same way a grape soda has antioxidants.

Bread has never been good for humans. It's still not. Ask any anthropologist.

And you still need to cite this claim that vegetables today don't have nutrients. We are eating more healthily today than at any point in the history of civilization. Where we go wrong is quantity. Malnutrition used to be a real issue in the people of Western Europe and America because they couldn't afford meat, eggs, vegetables and so forth and relied too heavily on bread. The issue these days is one of excess only, in terms of food quality you have never had it so good. This idea that a chicken 70 years ago was better is absurd, a chicken 70 years ago was unavailable.


We are not eating more healthily. What makes you think that? We have an obesity epidemic. Most of the country is either overweight, obese, or extremely obese, which bring about massive personal and social problems. Type 2 diabetes is rampant among children which is normally exclusive to adults. High blood pressure, cancer, strokes, etc. are now up.

Look at France. France is a developed country like the US but they have half the obesity rate than we do. Italy has an obese population of about 10%. I say France and Italy because these two countries are known for their famous cuisine. They have cultures revolving around fine food.

Excess is a problem. But why is excess our problem? We are all the same humans. It's our food that's shit. Our meat are mass produced with baby chicken (normal chicken used to be adults which are more healthy and tasty. Baby chickens taste worse) stuffed with fat, carbs, and antibiotics. Our vegetables ARE less nutritious (reasons can be argued but the decrease in nutrition is a fact). Our great food corporations have succeeded in producing so much calories but as a trade off fucked us in the nutrition department.

Aside from a few things (corn syrip mostly) your food is no more shit then our food.
The problem the US has with food is mentality.

A Cola in the US is the same as a Cola in Europe, but we don't drink 30 oz free refill cups of it at McDonalds tho.
It is all in the head and the culture.

?
I thought Europe banned GMOs? GMOs aren't good dude.Europe has the edge in food quality.

Europe has GMOs and there is nothing intrinsically wrong with hem.

This topic really has brought out the crazies in the left. It's only a short jump from GMOs to vaccines and autism. Did we forget about science at some point on the organic food train?

Soon we're gonna have people coming out against pasteurization.

Or against nuclear power. Those damn hyppies, fighting against progress.

More seriously, this has been discussed to death already : according to some sources (I let this up for debate because I don't want to get oneofsanto on me) GMO crop do not reduce pesticide usage but might even increase it a lot, it usually reduce biodiversity, it create dependancy towards huge firm with monopoly like market powers. There's plenty of reasons to defend yourself against such economic model (and GMO is only a part of that economic model, which is in fact broader than that, the whole industrialisation of agriculture, and the monoculture). Science and technology as ideology said Habermas... Still true.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-12 21:55:39
February 12 2016 21:55 GMT
#58149
Stupid me, sorry.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
CuddlyCuteKitten
Profile Joined January 2004
Sweden2888 Posts
February 12 2016 22:00 GMT
#58150
GMOs aren't bad at all. If anything GMO food is good. You can't catch a "gene bug" from eating food, it's not how reality works. Your body doesn't care at all if the protein or carbohydrates in a food are genetically modified, it has 0 % chance of affecting you directly.

What it could possibly do is to
1) allow heavier use of pesticides
2) potentially cross breed to other plants. I have yet to see any evidence of that.

Being afraid of genetically modified food is just a sure sign of not knowing how things work. It's just food. Be afraid of the food that stays "fresh" for 3 weeks when it should have lasted 3 days because that actually contains things that could possibly affect you.

It's like with irradiated food. People go ballistic over it when it's by far the safest form of preservative for our bodies since it can't affect us at all.
Unity, support, family, and kneecapping bitches.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
February 12 2016 22:00 GMT
#58151
Kwark do you think that your no-nonsense approach inoculates you against psychological impositions on direct sensory experience? Like if we put a dyed red wine in front of you would you be able to describe it "as it was" rather than "as it appeared to be"?

In that vein, do you think that you would find more expensive meat/produce to taste the same as the Walmart/safeway equivalent?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
corumjhaelen
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
France6884 Posts
February 12 2016 22:00 GMT
#58152
Cheese made from pasteurized milk is awful, even industrials are trying to come up with less destructiveprocess like microfiltration. But discussing food with an englishman is likely to be a waste of time
‎numquam se plus agere quam nihil cum ageret, numquam minus solum esse quam cum solus esset
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-12 22:03:31
February 12 2016 22:02 GMT
#58153
On February 13 2016 07:00 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
GMOs aren't bad at all. If anything GMO food is good. You can't catch a "gene bug" from eating food, it's not how reality works. Your body doesn't care at all if the protein or carbohydrates in a food are genetically modified, it has 0 % chance of affecting you directly.

What it could possibly do is to
1) allow heavier use of pesticides
2) potentially cross breed to other plants. I have yet to see any evidence of that.

Being afraid of genetically modified food is just a sure sign of not knowing how things work. It's just food. Be afraid of the food that stays "fresh" for 3 weeks when it should have lasted 3 days because that actually contains things that could possibly affect you.

It's like with irradiated food. People go ballistic over it when it's by far the safest form of preservative for our bodies since it can't affect us at all.


There are dumb reasons to be against GMOs and more defensible reasons. See whitedog above. Transparency in the food chain, at the very least, seems reasonable.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
February 12 2016 22:04 GMT
#58154
On February 13 2016 07:00 corumjhaelen wrote:
Cheese made from pasteurized milk is awful, even industrials are trying to come up with less destructiveprocess like microfiltration. But discussing food with an englishman is likely to be a waste of time

Haha "english food at the beginning we believe that it is crap, and once in the mouth, we regret that it can't be it! " dixit Jacques Chirac.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44287 Posts
February 12 2016 22:05 GMT
#58155
On February 13 2016 07:00 IgnE wrote:
Kwark do you think that your no-nonsense approach inoculates you against psychological impositions on direct sensory experience? Like if we put a dyed red wine in front of you would you be able to describe it "as it was" rather than "as it appeared to be"?

In that vein, do you think that you would find more expensive meat/produce to taste the same as the Walmart/safeway equivalent?

Not at all. I think that I would be no less subjective than the next man. In an anecdote I brought up earlier I described how a particularly enjoyable experience was dictated mostly by context rather than from the food. I think the food would conform to my expectations. I would expect it to be indistinguishable would be biased towards that conclusion, just as Plansix swears that he can taste a difference.

Double blind trial is the only way to be sure.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 12 2016 22:07 GMT
#58156
Transparency is one of the leading problems in the US and the reason why organic products have taken hold. The mass production of food inst' the root of the problem, it is the inability for consumer to find out exactly what was done to their food before they bought it. And farmers know that if they disclose that their beef was washed with a bleach solution to keep it from spoiling, it will sell less. Or that they injected it with red dye. So people lean towards organic, simple, non-processed food.

And fuck corn syrup.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-12 22:11:06
February 12 2016 22:10 GMT
#58157

Madeleine Albright: My Undiplomatic Moment

I HAVE spent much of my career as a diplomat. It is an occupation in which words and context matter a great deal. So one might assume I know better than to tell a large number of women to go to hell.

But last Saturday, in the excitement of a campaign event for Hillary Clinton in New Hampshire, that is essentially what I did, when I delivered a line I have uttered a thousand times to applause, nodding heads and laughter: “There’s a special place in hell for women who don’t help each other.” It is a phrase I first used almost 25 years ago, when I was the United States ambassador to the United Nations and worked closely with the six other female U.N. ambassadors. But this time, to my surprise, it went viral.

I absolutely believe what I said, that women should help one another, but this was the wrong context and the wrong time to use that line. I did not mean to argue that women should support a particular candidate based solely on gender. But I understand that I came across as condemning those who disagree with my political preferences. If heaven were open only to those who agreed on politics, I imagine it would be largely unoccupied.

However, I do want to explain why I so firmly believe that, even today, women have an obligation to help one another. In a society where women often feel pressured to tear one another down, our saving grace lies in our willingness to lift one another up. And while young women may not want to hear anything more from this aging feminist, I feel it is important to speak to women coming of age at a time when a viable female presidential candidate, once inconceivable, is a reality.

I have been out of public office for a decade and a half. I have devoted much of my life since to teaching, writing and helping to make sure younger women face fewer obstacles than my generation did. When I speak to groups of women of all ages, I am struck that despite all that has changed, I am still asked the same questions: “How do you maintain work-life balance? What can I do to succeed in a male profession? What advice should I give my daughter?”

When I answer these questions, I inevitably reflect upon the difficulties my generation faced. I share these stories not to bemoan how hard my life has been. It’s turned out pretty well. What concerns me is that if we do not pay careful attention to this history, the gains we have fought so hard for could be lost, and we could move backward. I do not have a magic formula for how every woman should live her life, but I do know that we need to give one another a hand.

The battle for gender equality is still being waged, and it will be easier if we have a woman who prioritizes these issues in the Oval Office and if the gender balance among elected officials reflects that of our country. When women are empowered to make decisions, society benefits. They will raise issues, pass bills and put money into projects that men might overlook or oppose.

Despite decades of progress, women still make less money than men for equivalent work. Paid family leave remains an elusive dream. Sexual abuse against women continues to plague our communities. And many politicians still act as though the top threat to our national security is Planned Parenthood.

In the meantime, outdated attitudes persist. To this day, I sometimes feel a squirm of anxiety when I interrupt a discussion in a room with only men. I see women in public office being criticized on television for their hairstyle or tone of voice. And I regularly hear successful businesswomen criticized as “too emotional.”

Even so, I am concerned by the tone of the debate about the many problems that specifically affect women. We cannot be complacent, and we cannot forget the hard work it took us to get to where we are. I would argue that because of what is at stake, this is exactly the time to have a conversation about how to preserve what women have gained, including the right to make our own choices, and how to move forward together. I would welcome an informed dialogue that crosses generations. We have much to learn from one another.

A few years ago, not long after Hillary Clinton succeeded Condoleezza Rice as secretary of state, one of my granddaughters asked: “So what’s the big deal about Grandma Maddy being secretary of state? I thought only girls are secretary of state.”

My hope is that young women like my two granddaughters — those who have lived in a world where Roe v. Wade is the law of the land, who played school sports thanks to Title IX and who have never had to check “married” or “single” on a job application — will build on the progress we have made. But that will happen only if women help one another. And for those who do that, there will always be a special place of honor.

----
Madeleine Albright was the secretary of state from 1997 to 2001.




Source
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IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
February 12 2016 22:11 GMT
#58158
Anyone who has been to a show or concert and gone to their fancy "cafe" with $15 plates only to find that the food looks and tastes like Aramark catered bullshit knows that there is real variance in food quality, as it impacts taste, satiety, and overall satisfaction. I contend that "Walmart food," on the whole, is more like Aramark food than higher quality stuff. Just ignoring any unsubstantiated arguments about the nutritional content of said meals, it's immediately and directly apparent to anyone who has experienced the difference how these meals disparately impact food choices in the future. Aramark food leads to bad choices because it is unsatisfying at a gut, visceral level.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
corumjhaelen
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
France6884 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-12 22:15:06
February 12 2016 22:12 GMT
#58159
I think we need double blind trial to see if Kwark can differentiate Proust from Barbara Cartland. Only scientific way to be sure.
Edit : leftist organic worshipper being irrationnal justify everthing though.
‎numquam se plus agere quam nihil cum ageret, numquam minus solum esse quam cum solus esset
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44287 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-12 22:19:55
February 12 2016 22:18 GMT
#58160
On February 13 2016 07:11 IgnE wrote:
Anyone who has been to a show or concert and gone to their fancy "cafe" with $15 plates only to find that the food looks and tastes like Aramark catered bullshit knows that there is real variance in food quality, as it impacts taste, satiety, and overall satisfaction. I contend that "Walmart food," on the whole, is more like Aramark food than higher quality stuff. Just ignoring any unsubstantiated arguments about the nutritional content of said meals, it's immediately and directly apparent to anyone who has experienced the difference how these meals disparately impact food choices in the future. Aramark food leads to bad choices because it is unsatisfying at a gut, visceral level.

Are we comparing like with like here? Clove of garlic from Walmart vs garlic from Whole Foods or whatever? Same cut of meat from Walmart vs one from your butcher? Branded salt vs regular salt? Banana from Dole vs banana from Dole (but more expensive)?

Obviously I can tell the difference between things like peanut butter and grape jelly but that's such a stupid question I dismissed it out of hand. My argument with Plansix was that the produce in Walmart is going to be much the same as any other produce. The suggestion that started this was that poor people who shop at Walmart can't possibly eat healthily because the produce is fundamentally worse if you pay less for it.
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