EPTI like Bernie so much because he changes the framing of an argument. For me, the barebones probability of a policy happening is second to the fact that he's revolutionzed the conversation (e.g. campaign finance reform, healthcare, marijuana, somewhat foreign policy) and will negotiate from a more left POV.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2855
| Forum Index > Closed |
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
|
darthfoley
United States8003 Posts
I like Bernie so much because he changes the framing of an argument. For me, the barebones probability of a policy happening is second to the fact that he's revolutionzed the conversation (e.g. campaign finance reform, healthcare, marijuana, somewhat foreign policy) and will negotiate from a more left POV. | ||
|
ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
For those interested, this is the kind of thing Hillary talks about at GS: | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States23214 Posts
On February 07 2016 08:58 ticklishmusic wrote: No, we have trade schools and such but nothing like Germany, Austria and other European countries. For those interested, this is the kind of thing Hillary talks about at GS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lKlJ3Ed4fQ&feature=youtu.be So surely the transcripts will be out by Monday right? | ||
|
ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On February 07 2016 08:58 darthfoley wrote: The thing with Bernie, if you start with "single payer/universal healthcare" as the goal, you can negotiate downwards and still potentially end up with something like the public option, which would be a step in the right direction. With so many issues, both Obama and Clinton start somewhat centrist, and then start compromising. I like Bernie so much because he changes the framing of an argument. For me, the barebones probability of a policy happening is second to the fact that he's revolutionzed the conversation (e.g. campaign finance reform, healthcare, marijuana, somewhat foreign policy) and will negotiate from a more left POV. I can agree to disagree with this.  It makes sense if you acknowledge that we more than likely won't get single payer, but that it's a negotiating position. While Bernie obviously isn't going to outright acknowledge that, I think it's important for those to support him to keep it in mind. On healthcare, I like how Hillary is focusing on very specific issues: copays, Rx prices and value based care. Those are common sense things that a lot of people can get behind, and we're already getting some movement in the right direction on these issues and a concerted administration push could get us past there. Then we can move on to a public option based on these principles and so on. If this is the kind of thing that we disagree on it's a mostly philosophical disagreement which is perfectly reasonable. | ||
|
ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On February 07 2016 09:06 GreenHorizons wrote: So surely the transcripts will be out by Monday right? If you're truly going to belabor the point, here is a link to a lot of Hillary's speeches. The optics of some of the speeches are obviously going to not be great-- she's going to thank bankers for all that they do, etc. but I highly doubt there are going to be any 47% comments or anything like that. I see why she would be reluctant about releasing the transcripts, but to a rational individual there isn't anything truly incriminating, unless I'm completely off in my assessment of Hillary and would have to revise that. As I posted before, Bernie has also said plenty of nice things to bankers and suchlike at events like these. | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States23214 Posts
On February 07 2016 09:23 ticklishmusic wrote: If you're truly going to belabor the point, here is a link to a lot of Hillary's speeches. The optics of some of the speeches are obviously going to not be great-- she's going to thank bankers for all that they do, etc. but I highly doubt there are going to be any 47% comments or anything like that. I see why she would be reluctant about releasing the transcripts, but to a rational individual there isn't anything truly incriminating, unless I'm completely off in my assessment of Hillary and would have to revise that. As I posted before, Bernie has also said plenty of nice things to bankers and suchlike at events like these. If she doesn't release the transcripts I won't vote for her, call it what you want. I'd like to hear Bernie's explanation about (and transcripts from) the Democratic party events he did too. It's kind of an apples to oranges comparison but I don't think he's immune to questions either. | ||
|
IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On February 07 2016 07:38 oneofthem wrote: i don't much care for the healthcare cost part of bernie's plan. a singlepayer system would definitely reduce overall burden of healthcare on economy but at probable decrease in quality in some areas. this would have to be augmented with increased basic research. the main thing i don't like about bernie's big projects is that there is a lot fo focus on the amount of spending and govt involvement without discussion of whether the spending is effective or even perpetuating bad things like student loans with no jobs. when you have a systematic problem like 'lack of good jobs', of course investment in human resources is a key, but a part of the problem is the low value added of existing education. if you throw a lot of government money at this it may simply mean a lot of useless degrees and even more dashed expectations. Upon further thought, too, the failure of higher education is pretty damning for "skill premium" interpretations of increasing inequality and is an implicit call for radical structural changes to the economy in order to address problems. Edit: specifically ways to address increasing financialization jn mature economies | ||
|
IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On February 07 2016 09:23 ticklishmusic wrote: If you're truly going to belabor the point, here is a link to a lot of Hillary's speeches. The optics of some of the speeches are obviously going to not be great-- she's going to thank bankers for all that they do, etc. but I highly doubt there are going to be any 47% comments or anything like that. I see why she would be reluctant about releasing the transcripts, but to a rational individual there isn't anything truly incriminating, unless I'm completely off in my assessment of Hillary and would have to revise that. As I posted before, Bernie has also said plenty of nice things to bankers and suchlike at events like these. A smoking gun 47%-type comment would only be evidence of outright corruption. Rational individuals are premising their criticisms of Hillary on theories of "deep capture" and situationist interpretations of her relationship to banks. In other words, you are missing the point at a fundamental level. | ||
|
cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On February 07 2016 08:31 IgnE wrote: That's one of the better points you've made. Higher education is fucked up. Of course it is. Its got too many kids going into it (subsidies without standards), and it is implicitly required because K-12 is not serving the purpose of differentiating the work force. A company simply cannot know what a high school graduate is right now. A 2.0 doesn't mean you are a competent fellow, a 3.0 doesn't mean that you paid attention all day and turned in good assignments, and a 4.0 certainly doesn't mean you are an elite student with a great work ethic. The only real way kids are differentiated are by the SATs and ACTs and AP tests (which are all basically a hybrid IQ/knowledge test), and companies don't have good access to those result. Even if they did, they would be slapped with an EEOC complaint if they couldn't demonstrate that those scores are "Bone Fide Occupational Qualifications" which is a fairly high bar. Whence, College is being used by employers as the filtering mechanism that High School and Standardized test scores should be, because those are unreliable and illegal respectfully. On February 07 2016 08:42 Nyxisto wrote: do apprenticeship systems exist in the US? I've always felt they're one of the strong reasons why some countries do a lot better at closing the gap between people with and without college education. In the post-War era a lot of trade unions in America became localized and fractured while manufacturing and relatively unskilled unions like autoworkers and longshormen became stronger. This was due to the supremacy of US manufacturing at that time and the very favorable legal environment. This really weakened our trades and apprenticeship programs because they were a bad deal. Now a skilled carpenter or plumber way out-earns a manufacturing worker (but remember that is only competent ones, many more still wash out) but a lot of the infrastructure broke up/was never developed because people would walk out of high school and make the same wage in manufacturing without the apprenticeship phase. | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States23214 Posts
| ||
|
Introvert
United States4748 Posts
| ||
|
IgnE
United States7681 Posts
| ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States23214 Posts
On February 07 2016 10:17 Introvert wrote: Is Ben Carson ok? I'm not sure I heard his name either, and they totally forgot Kasich | ||
|
xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
| ||
|
Introvert
United States4748 Posts
On February 07 2016 10:19 GreenHorizons wrote: I'm not sure I heard his name either, and they totally forgot Kasich https://twitter.com/INJO/status/696141193206435840 I heard it, but it's whatevs. | ||
|
xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
| ||
|
xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
| ||
|
jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
| ||
|
ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
EDIT: err, shoutout to Joe Biden? | ||
|
xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
| ||
| ||
