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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45182 Posts
February 02 2016 12:31 GMT
#56601
Can someone please explain why each precinct/ voting area is independently decided by a coin flip, instead of waiting for all counts (in case of multiple ties), and then splitting the ties right down the middle (i.e., 6 tied voting totals could be 3 wins for each candidate)? And what's wrong with each candidate getting half a delegate (or 1 delegate or 0 delegates) because it was a true tie? I feel like a coinflip to choose which half of the voters should be represented is a very bad idea.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
February 02 2016 12:35 GMT
#56602
On February 02 2016 21:05 Simberto wrote:
The reasonable way to do things would be to do them simultaneously at all the places, so results from one can't influence another. But there does not seem to be anything reasonable at all about the US election system.


The point is that the country is insanely large and splitting elections in time allows you to campaign more locally. It's hard to compare with european perspective, where the countries are smaller. But at least the level of detachment of the Brussels establishment from citizens shows the problem.
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-02 12:43:50
February 02 2016 12:42 GMT
#56603
The bar was low for Jeb Bush's finish in Monday's Iowa caucus. He failed to clear it anyway.

After a blowout defeat that landed him in sixth place with just 2.8 percent of the vote, Bush's campaign is now directing top aides and surrogates to highlight the lack of emphasis the one-time front-runner placed on the state – and to make the case that he has far higher expectations in New Hampshire.

“The real race for the nomination begins on February 9th in New Hampshire,” the campaign wrote in a “talking points” memo sent to advisers and high-profile supporters. “It will set the race going forward and today, Jeb Bush is in a very strong position in the state.”

It goes on to add: “The Jeb 2016 campaign has never made Iowa a centerpiece to winning the nomination. We have long viewed Iowa as just one of 56 contests, electing 30 delegates out of 2,472 going to the Convention to select our nominee.”

Surrogates are then reminded that in November a “strategic decision” was made to “shift resources away from Iowa.” Bush’s time in Iowa, it notes, was “significantly scaled back.” In December and January, it says, Bush “went 40 days without visiting Iowa.”

Bush rival Marco Rubio, meanwhile, “invested far more significantly in” the state.

The memo identifies New Hampshire as “better terrain” for the former governor, and it provides extensive historical detail for why it’s a far better barometer of who goes on to win the nomination than Iowa.

Bush has more than 40 paid campaign staff across five offices in New Hampshire. The memo points to a series of recent favorable polls and high profile endorsements, and notes that “we have the largest voter contact effort in the state.”

“With a field unprecedented in its depth and size, we don’t expect Iowa to be a factor in winnowing the field,” the memo concludes. “By contrast, New Hampshire has a much stronger record of indicating the eventual Republican nominee. The Republican Party’s previous two nominees lost Iowa and won New Hampshire.”

Bush came in behind Sen. Ted Cruz, Donald Trump, Sen. Marco Rubio, Ben Carson and even Sen. Rand Paul. He inched past John Kasich, Carly Fiorina, Mike Huckabee, Chris Christie and Rick Santorum.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22009 Posts
February 02 2016 12:56 GMT
#56604
On February 02 2016 21:42 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
The bar was low for Jeb Bush's finish in Monday's Iowa caucus. He failed to clear it anyway.

After a blowout defeat that landed him in sixth place with just 2.8 percent of the vote, Bush's campaign is now directing top aides and surrogates to highlight the lack of emphasis the one-time front-runner placed on the state – and to make the case that he has far higher expectations in New Hampshire.

“The real race for the nomination begins on February 9th in New Hampshire,” the campaign wrote in a “talking points” memo sent to advisers and high-profile supporters. “It will set the race going forward and today, Jeb Bush is in a very strong position in the state.”

It goes on to add: “The Jeb 2016 campaign has never made Iowa a centerpiece to winning the nomination. We have long viewed Iowa as just one of 56 contests, electing 30 delegates out of 2,472 going to the Convention to select our nominee.”

Surrogates are then reminded that in November a “strategic decision” was made to “shift resources away from Iowa.” Bush’s time in Iowa, it notes, was “significantly scaled back.” In December and January, it says, Bush “went 40 days without visiting Iowa.”

Bush rival Marco Rubio, meanwhile, “invested far more significantly in” the state.

The memo identifies New Hampshire as “better terrain” for the former governor, and it provides extensive historical detail for why it’s a far better barometer of who goes on to win the nomination than Iowa.

Bush has more than 40 paid campaign staff across five offices in New Hampshire. The memo points to a series of recent favorable polls and high profile endorsements, and notes that “we have the largest voter contact effort in the state.”

“With a field unprecedented in its depth and size, we don’t expect Iowa to be a factor in winnowing the field,” the memo concludes. “By contrast, New Hampshire has a much stronger record of indicating the eventual Republican nominee. The Republican Party’s previous two nominees lost Iowa and won New Hampshire.”

Bush came in behind Sen. Ted Cruz, Donald Trump, Sen. Marco Rubio, Ben Carson and even Sen. Rand Paul. He inched past John Kasich, Carly Fiorina, Mike Huckabee, Chris Christie and Rick Santorum.


Source

I think more then anything this primary has shown that Jeb has no spine.
He has no interest in running, his campaign died ages ago and yet he doesn't quit because the family expects him to run.

He could have bowed out graciously a while back and leave the door open for maybe trying again some time when he wants it (or just never). Instead they probably burned a lot of backer bridges by keeping the dead husk of a campaign going.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-02 13:00:50
February 02 2016 12:58 GMT
#56605
On February 02 2016 21:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Can someone please explain why each precinct/ voting area is independently decided by a coin flip, instead of waiting for all counts (in case of multiple ties), and then splitting the ties right down the middle (i.e., 6 tied voting totals could be 3 wins for each candidate)? And what's wrong with each candidate getting half a delegate (or 1 delegate or 0 delegates) because it was a true tie? I feel like a coinflip to choose which half of the voters should be represented is a very bad idea.

Because stupid.

There's a lot of rules that should be changed/updated but simply aren't; imho there's too much inertia and a lack of correcting such issues in institutions. Nor is there a system to force all rules to hold up to scrutiny.
It's not uncommon to find luck-based tie-breaker rules in general in american election law.

at first I was thinking it might be because the rules were set before modern communication, but then I realized that didn't make sense, as it would still have worked fine to just take a few days to let the notes assemble at the state house (or wherever) and do the splitting of ties there.

on Trump: I just wanna reiterate my stance on him that I stated months ago: he doesn't need to win to win, he just needs there to be no majority winner by the end of the primaries, then when it gets to the convention he can make a deal (which he loves doing) for who his delegates will support.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Wegandi
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2455 Posts
February 02 2016 13:33 GMT
#56606
On February 02 2016 21:58 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 02 2016 21:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Can someone please explain why each precinct/ voting area is independently decided by a coin flip, instead of waiting for all counts (in case of multiple ties), and then splitting the ties right down the middle (i.e., 6 tied voting totals could be 3 wins for each candidate)? And what's wrong with each candidate getting half a delegate (or 1 delegate or 0 delegates) because it was a true tie? I feel like a coinflip to choose which half of the voters should be represented is a very bad idea.

Because stupid.

There's a lot of rules that should be changed/updated but simply aren't; imho there's too much inertia and a lack of correcting such issues in institutions. Nor is there a system to force all rules to hold up to scrutiny.
It's not uncommon to find luck-based tie-breaker rules in general in american election law.

at first I was thinking it might be because the rules were set before modern communication, but then I realized that didn't make sense, as it would still have worked fine to just take a few days to let the notes assemble at the state house (or wherever) and do the splitting of ties there.

on Trump: I just wanna reiterate my stance on him that I stated months ago: he doesn't need to win to win, he just needs there to be no majority winner by the end of the primaries, then when it gets to the convention he can make a deal (which he loves doing) for who his delegates will support.


Well at least the Democratic Party didn't change the rules to purposefully make it much harder for the non-Establishment wing of the party to win the nomination. You should have seen the shit they did to Ron Paul and the rules change after 2012. Hell, Iowa even got rid of its Straw Poll because of people like Ron and Pat Buchanan before him. There are some hilarious videos of the 2012 GOP Convention showing the disenfranchisement. Not seating our delegates, handing them to their hand-picked Establishment people. Passing rules without any vote, etc. Changing nominating procedures after the fact, etc. I haven't seen anything that bad on the DNC side, but generally I agree, that the process is rigged for the status-quo in both parties for the most part.
Thank you bureaucrats for all your hard work, your commitment to public service and public good is essential to the lives of so many. Also, for Pete's sake can we please get some gun control already, no need for hand guns and assault rifles for the public
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
February 02 2016 13:46 GMT
#56607
Interesting to say the least. Quite heartwarming as well for someone who likes their politics less bat-shit crazy:

Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
DickMcFanny
Profile Blog Joined September 2015
Ireland1076 Posts
February 02 2016 14:00 GMT
#56608
Speaking of disenfranchisement, for the poorer 70% of the population, public opinion has no discernable influence on policy at all.
| (• ◡•)|╯ ╰(❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-02 14:06:37
February 02 2016 14:05 GMT
#56609
On February 02 2016 21:05 Simberto wrote:
The reasonable way to do things would be to do them simultaneously at all the places, so results from one can't influence another. But there does not seem to be anything reasonable at all about the US election system.

That has its own set of problems because there would be no clear winner. There are 8 candidates in the Republican field, though we only care about 3. And they would all need to run nation wide and we are a huge country with a huge population. It would cost untold amounts of money and man power. And we might need to do it several times to get a clear winner for both parties.

The problem is there is no perfect solution to this problem, only imperfect ones.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
February 02 2016 14:09 GMT
#56610
Another alternative would be to simply vary the ordering of states in the primaries; so that the primaries are spread out around the country over time; and every place gets a chance at being first at some point.
The solutions may be imperfect; but there's still plenty that are clearly superior to the present system.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 02 2016 14:15 GMT
#56611
The problem is that the systems are created by the parties and their states, not by some collective or overseeing body for both parties & the federal government. We don’t really regulate this process and each state does things its own way. We would need to take away the state’s ability to control their primaries to do that and I question if they would agree.

Randomizing the process would address that one issue, but then create new issues. If MA went first, it wouldn’t be reflective of any section of the Republican party, same with Texas for the democrats. Or we might get a state with super low population like Alaska. You could have 5 primaries in a row that literally don't matter due to the low population of that state.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ACrow
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6583 Posts
February 02 2016 14:27 GMT
#56612
Any guesses as to when we will see Santorum and Huckabee drop out? I get that the more moderate low profile candidates wait until at least New Hampshire with any decision, but for Santorum and Huckabee Iowa was the prime target, considering they are as right-wing, christian nutjob as it gets. Do they seriously try to hang out until super tuesday? They likely won't get any delegates anyway, and their one chance to pick up any momentum until then is over now.
Get off my lawn, young punks
Ghostcom
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark4782 Posts
February 02 2016 14:34 GMT
#56613
Huckabee has dropped out. I don't know about Santorum.
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
February 02 2016 14:35 GMT
#56614
Huckabee has already dropped out and Santorum is "reassessing" his campaign so he's effectively out as well. You can expect a similar culling after New Hampshire. Whichever establishment wannabes place lower than 5% will likely drop out (probably Christie and Fiorina).

The more interesting question is whether Jeb or Kasich beats Rubio in NH.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
February 02 2016 15:04 GMT
#56615
haven't paid too much attention but Ted Cruz doesn't neccesarily strike me as a moderate either.
WriterXiao8~~
Toadesstern
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Germany16350 Posts
February 02 2016 15:07 GMT
#56616
is there even that much point in actually winning a certain state?
I mean obviously it's good if you win (duh), but if the delegates are splitting up among the people isn't it more about wether people performed good enough or not given the state rather than about wether they won the whole thing?

Like Cruz got his win now, but from what people said that seems like one of the easier states for him right? So he would have needed a much better win to be relevant since he'll have a harder time in most other states?

If I understand this correctly (on the Republican side), this is a loss for Trump, a huge win for Rubio and despite being a win for Cruz just not a big enough one?
And for Democrats, Sanders is probably in the same shoes as Cruz, it's a win for him but he needed way more.
<Elem> >toad in charge of judging lewdness <Elem> how bad can it be <Elem> also wew, that is actually p lewd.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 02 2016 15:07 GMT
#56617
On February 03 2016 00:04 Kipsate wrote:
haven't paid too much attention but Ted Cruz doesn't neccesarily strike me as a moderate either.

There is nothing moderate about Ted Cruz. The man is a ideologue through and through.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
February 02 2016 15:09 GMT
#56618
crazies attract crazies
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-02 15:31:08
February 02 2016 15:29 GMT
#56619
On February 03 2016 00:07 Toadesstern wrote:
is there even that much point in actually winning a certain state?
I mean obviously it's good if you win (duh), but if the delegates are splitting up among the people isn't it more about wether people performed good enough or not given the state rather than about wether they won the whole thing?

Like Cruz got his win now, but from what people said that seems like one of the easier states for him right? So he would have needed a much better win to be relevant since he'll have a harder time in most other states?

If I understand this correctly (on the Republican side), this is a loss for Trump, a huge win for Rubio and despite being a win for Cruz just not a big enough one?
And for Democrats, Sanders is probably in the same shoes as Cruz, it's a win for him but he needed way more.


The establishment is putting its weight behind Rubio now he has to win more than just third place everywhere along with fending off attacks of other establishment candidates while Cruz and Trump to try and prevent them from shoring up support and delegates.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
DickMcFanny
Profile Blog Joined September 2015
Ireland1076 Posts
February 02 2016 15:33 GMT
#56620
On February 03 2016 00:07 Toadesstern wrote:


If I understand this correctly (on the Republican side), this is a loss for Trump, a huge win for Rubio and despite being a win for Cruz just not a big enough one?
And for Democrats, Sanders is probably in the same shoes as Cruz, it's a win for him but he needed way more.


I think Bernie can be really satisfied with that result. I don't think a presidency is the best outcome for his cause, anyway.

President Sanders wouldn't be able to do much, look at the poor results of the great president the US has had for the last eight years, but if he sparks a socialist movement in the US, he might be slightly less of a failure than Syriza, the Portuguese socialist party or Podemos.
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