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On January 19 2016 03:50 Plansix wrote:
Also, free market theory functions fine in socialism. Adam Smith's work specifically cites that its the governments job to take care of the poor and disabled so they are able to participate in the free market. And regulation is also part of the free market, because it is necessary to prevent fraud and assure that the consumer has the most accurate information to making purchasing decisions.
Basically, any time anyone mentions Adam Smith and "the free market" in a sentence other than "Adam Smith did not believe in the free market," you can rest assured that they have not, in fact, read any Adam Smith 
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On January 19 2016 04:31 Souma wrote:
Don't see how you can't see the difference between that and blocking access to hospitals/screaming at chemo patients.
I don’t know what specific protest he was talking about, but I am taking that account with a grain of salt. Sometimes people fib and embellish on the internet.
On January 19 2016 04:33 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 03:50 Plansix wrote:
Also, free market theory functions fine in socialism. Adam Smith's work specifically cites that its the governments job to take care of the poor and disabled so they are able to participate in the free market. And regulation is also part of the free market, because it is necessary to prevent fraud and assure that the consumer has the most accurate information to making purchasing decisions. Basically, any time anyone mentions Adam Smith and "the free market" in a sentence other than "Adam Smith did not believe in the free market," you can rest assured that they have not, in fact, read any Adam Smith
My favorite part is when people cite free market theory, but don't know who Adam Smith was.
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On January 19 2016 04:05 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 03:53 JW_DTLA wrote:Protest movements (MLK, BLM, Occupy) have always been subject to scorn for going beyond social norms in their speech. But that is the point. Protest movements are supposed to go beyond what is comfortable for people who like the status quo. Remember that protest movements are trying to move the status quo, thus will always be going beyond what respectable people would want them to do. They were complaining about black on black crime and saying that if MLK just followed the order the status quo directed him to he would get everything he wanted. They were wrong then, wrong now. http://www.thekingcenter.org/archive/document/hate-mail-regarding-race-relations-mlk My experience with on-campus BLM protestors has been them blocking access to hospitals, shouting at people getting chemotherapy and screaming for half the faculty/admin to be fired and to be replaced with black people. There's a difference between effective protesting while going beyond social norms and being angry, unreasonable assholes.
MLK on moderate whites complaining about his overly aggressive protest tactics:
"Over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action.” … Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."
- See more at: http://theindependent.ca/2014/01/20/dr-martin-luther-king-strategies-and-tactics-of-civil-disobedience/#sthash.qWRlLtdN.dpuf
Primary source:
http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html
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I think it's funny that some college kids are considered radicals nowadays because they cause a little turmoil. It's not like they're the Black Panthers or the ETA lol.
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On January 19 2016 04:49 Nyxisto wrote:
I think it's funny that some college kids are considered radicals nowadays because they cause a little turmoil. It's not like they're the Black Panthers or the ETA lol.
This. The big complaint about the kids these days is that they are harassing their older white professors too much and complain too loudly when they disagree with their professors.
Won't someone think of the victims of loud disagreement???? /s
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If some people in the BLM movement do stupid shit, I don't see the problem with calling them out for it. I'm obviously not saying we should demonize the movement like the Republicans do, but voicing criticism at some of their actions if it's warranted is perfectly fine.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
You're white, WHAT DO YOU KNOW?
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People do stupid shit all the time and don’t earn national news coverage, unless you count the Florida Man twitter feed. Unless it is truly terrible, I don’t see why it needs any more attention than that.
On January 19 2016 05:39 Souma wrote:
You're white, WHAT DO YOU KNOW?
I'm white as the driven snow, so what was your point again?
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Exactly.
On a more serious note though, and I know I'm speaking anecdotally, it often seems to me like liberal white Americans always try a little too hard to appease minorities. I remember when I was doing some canvassing for CALPIRG and almost everyone around me was a super liberal caucasian, and I'd make snarky comments about apathetic Asians which always led to interesting reactions.
But really, c'mon, some of the shit that the students on college campuses have done should absolutely be called out. The moment you start to allow people who are out of line to carry on without reprimanding them is the exact moment your protest becomes a joke. No, they are not always in the right, and they should absolutely be criticized when they aren't.
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"There are some things in our nation and in our world to which I'm proud to be maladjusted… I never intend to adjust myself to segregation and discrimination. I never intend to become adjusted to religious bigotry. I never intend to adjust myself to economic conditions that will take necessities from the many to give luxuries to the few, and leave millions of people perishing on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of prosperity. I never intend to adjust myself to the madness of militarism, and to the self-defeating effects of physical violence..." -Martin Luther king Jr.
Some people have proudly adjusted to such atrocities. Right now the leading republican nominee is not just adjusted to but advocating for such.
Also while the ill informed go around saying "Be more like MLK, it will work better" one can't help but wonder if they get their history from books like "A Birthday cake for George Washington". Besides being apparently clueless as to how MLK was actually received at the time, it appears they also don't know why he suddenly stopped protesting altogether...
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So, in the interest of defending people I strongly disagree with on nearly everything...
Did I miss a memo that Christians are supposed to care really strongly about whether you say "two Corinthians" or "second Corinthians?" Apparently Trump is getting shit for doing this at Liberty University (because we've all decided to treat Jerry Falwell like the Protestant Pope for some reason). My Bible says PROS KORINTHIOUS B (in the original Greek) so maybe I missed that we were supposed to care. Don't we all google this shit now 2 cor 3 or whatever? So done with sanctimonious pharisees pretending to represent "true" Christianity.
Of course, Trump and his claims to religiosity are obviously fraudulent, but the issue is more his likening of the Bible of "The Art of the Deal," and the fact that he says he's never asked for forgiveness... never mind the xenophobia and objectification of women.
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On January 19 2016 06:12 Souma wrote:
Exactly.
On a more serious note though, and I know I'm speaking anecdotally, it often seems to me like liberal white Americans always try a little too hard to appease minorities. I remember when I was doing some canvassing for CALPIRG and almost everyone around me was a super liberal caucasian, and I'd make snarky comments about apathetic Asians which always led to interesting reactions.
But really, c'mon, some of the shit that the students on college campuses have done should absolutely be called out. The moment you start to allow people who are out of line to carry on without reprimanding them is the exact moment your protest becomes a joke. No, they are not always in the right, and they should absolutely be criticized when they aren't.
Sure, but are you the one who decides what is out of line? But I am 100% sure that isn't my job. Not really yours either. Maybe leave it to them to police themselves.
Also, I'm not liberal. You can ask my friends from Boston, who identify as liberal.
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On January 19 2016 06:16 Yoav wrote:
So, in the interest of defending people I strongly disagree with on nearly everything...
Did I miss a memo that Christians are supposed to care really strongly about whether you say "two Corinthians" or "second Corinthians?" Apparently Trump is getting shit for doing this at Liberty University (because we've all decided to treat Jerry Falwell like the Protestant Pope for some reason). My Bible says PROS KORINTHIOUS B (in the original Greek) so maybe I missed that we were supposed to care. Don't we all google this shit now 2 cor 3 or whatever? So done with sanctimonious pharisees pretending to represent "true" Christianity.
Of course, Trump and his claims to religiosity are obviously fraudulent, but the issue is more his likening of the Bible of "The Art of the Deal," and the fact that he says he's never asked for forgiveness... never mind the xenophobia and objectification of women.
Can confirm, no one cares. I've heard it both ways.
That being said, the use of "second" is far more common, in my experience.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On January 19 2016 06:17 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 06:12 Souma wrote:
Exactly.
On a more serious note though, and I know I'm speaking anecdotally, it often seems to me like liberal white Americans always try a little too hard to appease minorities. I remember when I was doing some canvassing for CALPIRG and almost everyone around me was a super liberal caucasian, and I'd make snarky comments about apathetic Asians which always led to interesting reactions.
But really, c'mon, some of the shit that the students on college campuses have done should absolutely be called out. The moment you start to allow people who are out of line to carry on without reprimanding them is the exact moment your protest becomes a joke. No, they are not always in the right, and they should absolutely be criticized when they aren't. Sure, but are you the one who decides what is out of line? But I am 100% sure that isn't my job. Not really yours either. Maybe leave it to them to police themselves. Also, I'm not liberal. You can ask my friends from Boston, who identify as liberal.
Yes, other people can judge if they're out of line or not. That's how societal values work. People may disagree, but all the same.
Surely if one of them took a bat to someone's face, you'd be able to deem that out of line.
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On January 19 2016 06:36 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 06:17 Plansix wrote:On January 19 2016 06:12 Souma wrote:
Exactly.
On a more serious note though, and I know I'm speaking anecdotally, it often seems to me like liberal white Americans always try a little too hard to appease minorities. I remember when I was doing some canvassing for CALPIRG and almost everyone around me was a super liberal caucasian, and I'd make snarky comments about apathetic Asians which always led to interesting reactions.
But really, c'mon, some of the shit that the students on college campuses have done should absolutely be called out. The moment you start to allow people who are out of line to carry on without reprimanding them is the exact moment your protest becomes a joke. No, they are not always in the right, and they should absolutely be criticized when they aren't. Sure, but are you the one who decides what is out of line? But I am 100% sure that isn't my job. Not really yours either. Maybe leave it to them to police themselves. Also, I'm not liberal. You can ask my friends from Boston, who identify as liberal. Yes, other people can judge if they're out of line or not. That's how societal values work. People may disagree, but all the same. Surely if one of them took a bat to someone's face, you'd be able to deem that out of line.
So we as a society must individually assess and pass judgment on each protest if someone feels they made a mistake? Based on evidence provided by the person who was offended by the protest? And then collectively we will make a judgment and call them “wrong” or “justified” in their actions? Like reddit for civil rights protests, one sided posting and all?
Unless you are talking about just you. Because if its just you, why would they care? Of course you have the ability to pass judgment, just like every other random person on the street. But protesting is really about pleasing randos on the sidewalk. Because the internet is the peanut gallery of the modern era.
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On January 19 2016 06:36 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 06:17 Plansix wrote:On January 19 2016 06:12 Souma wrote:
Exactly.
On a more serious note though, and I know I'm speaking anecdotally, it often seems to me like liberal white Americans always try a little too hard to appease minorities. I remember when I was doing some canvassing for CALPIRG and almost everyone around me was a super liberal caucasian, and I'd make snarky comments about apathetic Asians which always led to interesting reactions.
But really, c'mon, some of the shit that the students on college campuses have done should absolutely be called out. The moment you start to allow people who are out of line to carry on without reprimanding them is the exact moment your protest becomes a joke. No, they are not always in the right, and they should absolutely be criticized when they aren't. Sure, but are you the one who decides what is out of line? But I am 100% sure that isn't my job. Not really yours either. Maybe leave it to them to police themselves. Also, I'm not liberal. You can ask my friends from Boston, who identify as liberal. Yes, other people can judge if they're out of line or not. That's how societal values work. People may disagree, but all the same. Surely if one of them took a bat to someone's face, you'd be able to deem that out of line.
There's a difference between an individual acting as such and using such an incident to discredit an entire movement. Several people here and elsewhere have said "BLM has inconvenienced my life or so they have lost my respect/support" or some variation.
The irony being that if they took the government systematically denying people of their constitutional rights and putting self preservation above justice as seriously as they took citizens shouting at other citizens we wouldn't even be having this conversation because years ago they would of said that the police have lost credibility and they can no longer respect them.
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I know/knew (because I've forgotten a lot from college) plenty about the civil rights era. Without going into detail, it wasn't pretty. But you look at MLK and the other leaders and what they were able to do and the means they used to accomplish what they did, it really makes BLM look like unworthy successors. In all fairness the jury is still out on whether or not BLM will succeed, but honestly I don't think they will have the sort of impact their predecessors did. I'm aware of what MLK did. I wish protesters today could be more like him.
EDIT: but to my original point, it's still sad irony that some of these protesters don't recognize King's Dream speech when it comes from the mouth of an Asian girl...
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On January 19 2016 06:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 06:36 Souma wrote:On January 19 2016 06:17 Plansix wrote:On January 19 2016 06:12 Souma wrote:
Exactly.
On a more serious note though, and I know I'm speaking anecdotally, it often seems to me like liberal white Americans always try a little too hard to appease minorities. I remember when I was doing some canvassing for CALPIRG and almost everyone around me was a super liberal caucasian, and I'd make snarky comments about apathetic Asians which always led to interesting reactions.
But really, c'mon, some of the shit that the students on college campuses have done should absolutely be called out. The moment you start to allow people who are out of line to carry on without reprimanding them is the exact moment your protest becomes a joke. No, they are not always in the right, and they should absolutely be criticized when they aren't. Sure, but are you the one who decides what is out of line? But I am 100% sure that isn't my job. Not really yours either. Maybe leave it to them to police themselves. Also, I'm not liberal. You can ask my friends from Boston, who identify as liberal. Yes, other people can judge if they're out of line or not. That's how societal values work. People may disagree, but all the same. Surely if one of them took a bat to someone's face, you'd be able to deem that out of line. So we as a society must individually assess and pass judgment on each protest if someone feels they made a mistake? Based on evidence provided by the person who was offended by the protest? And then collectively we will make a judgment and call them “wrong” or “justified” in their actions? Like reddit for civil rights protests, one sided posting and all? Unless you are talking about just you. Because if its just you, why would they care? Of course you have the ability to pass judgment, just like every other random person on the street. But protesting is really about pleasing randos on the sidewalk. Because the internet is the peanut gallery of the modern era.
It's really not as complex as you're trying so desperately to make it out to be. Someone or some group does a no no, people within the group criticize no no instead of saying no no is okay. That helps make a protest more valid and solidified than if people continued to pretend that no no is fine, which would in turn undermine the protest.
On January 19 2016 06:42 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 06:36 Souma wrote:On January 19 2016 06:17 Plansix wrote:On January 19 2016 06:12 Souma wrote:
Exactly.
On a more serious note though, and I know I'm speaking anecdotally, it often seems to me like liberal white Americans always try a little too hard to appease minorities. I remember when I was doing some canvassing for CALPIRG and almost everyone around me was a super liberal caucasian, and I'd make snarky comments about apathetic Asians which always led to interesting reactions.
But really, c'mon, some of the shit that the students on college campuses have done should absolutely be called out. The moment you start to allow people who are out of line to carry on without reprimanding them is the exact moment your protest becomes a joke. No, they are not always in the right, and they should absolutely be criticized when they aren't. Sure, but are you the one who decides what is out of line? But I am 100% sure that isn't my job. Not really yours either. Maybe leave it to them to police themselves. Also, I'm not liberal. You can ask my friends from Boston, who identify as liberal. Yes, other people can judge if they're out of line or not. That's how societal values work. People may disagree, but all the same. Surely if one of them took a bat to someone's face, you'd be able to deem that out of line. There's a difference between an individual acting as such and using such an incident to discredit an entire movement. Several people here and elsewhere have said "BLM has inconvenienced my life or so they have lost my respect/support" or some variation. The irony being that if they took the government systematically denying people of their constitutional rights and putting self preservation above justice as seriously as they took citizens shouting at other citizens we wouldn't even be having this conversation because years ago they would of said that the police have lost credibility and they can no longer respect them.
If the members of the movement actually condemned said rogue actions, then people would be dumb to discredit the entire movement. The issue is when the movement tries to conceal, justify or not outright criticize said actions. If you're gonna protest, do it right, otherwise you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.
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On January 19 2016 06:29 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 06:16 Yoav wrote:
So, in the interest of defending people I strongly disagree with on nearly everything...
Did I miss a memo that Christians are supposed to care really strongly about whether you say "two Corinthians" or "second Corinthians?" Apparently Trump is getting shit for doing this at Liberty University (because we've all decided to treat Jerry Falwell like the Protestant Pope for some reason). My Bible says PROS KORINTHIOUS B (in the original Greek) so maybe I missed that we were supposed to care. Don't we all google this shit now 2 cor 3 or whatever? So done with sanctimonious pharisees pretending to represent "true" Christianity.
Of course, Trump and his claims to religiosity are obviously fraudulent, but the issue is more his likening of the Bible of "The Art of the Deal," and the fact that he says he's never asked for forgiveness... never mind the xenophobia and objectification of women. Can confirm, no one cares. I've heard it both ways. That being said, the use of "second" is far more common, in my experience.
I guess it's just very obvious that Trump isn't actually religious. Two Corinthians also sounds like the beginning of a "...walk into a bar" joke instead of a bible quote. I also find it weird that he's trying to combine his "politically incorrect" rants with a deeply Evangelical audience. Isn't decency and politeness a pretty big deal among American conservatives, especially the Evangelicals?
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On January 19 2016 07:00 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 06:40 Plansix wrote:On January 19 2016 06:36 Souma wrote:On January 19 2016 06:17 Plansix wrote:On January 19 2016 06:12 Souma wrote:
Exactly.
On a more serious note though, and I know I'm speaking anecdotally, it often seems to me like liberal white Americans always try a little too hard to appease minorities. I remember when I was doing some canvassing for CALPIRG and almost everyone around me was a super liberal caucasian, and I'd make snarky comments about apathetic Asians which always led to interesting reactions.
But really, c'mon, some of the shit that the students on college campuses have done should absolutely be called out. The moment you start to allow people who are out of line to carry on without reprimanding them is the exact moment your protest becomes a joke. No, they are not always in the right, and they should absolutely be criticized when they aren't. Sure, but are you the one who decides what is out of line? But I am 100% sure that isn't my job. Not really yours either. Maybe leave it to them to police themselves. Also, I'm not liberal. You can ask my friends from Boston, who identify as liberal. Yes, other people can judge if they're out of line or not. That's how societal values work. People may disagree, but all the same. Surely if one of them took a bat to someone's face, you'd be able to deem that out of line. So we as a society must individually assess and pass judgment on each protest if someone feels they made a mistake? Based on evidence provided by the person who was offended by the protest? And then collectively we will make a judgment and call them “wrong” or “justified” in their actions? Like reddit for civil rights protests, one sided posting and all? Unless you are talking about just you. Because if its just you, why would they care? Of course you have the ability to pass judgment, just like every other random person on the street. But protesting is really about pleasing randos on the sidewalk. Because the internet is the peanut gallery of the modern era. It's really not as complex as you're trying so desperately to make it out to be. Someone or some group does a no no, people within the group criticize no no instead of saying no no is okay. That helps make a protest more valid and solidified than if people continued to pretend that no no is fine, which would in turn undermine the protest. Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 06:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 19 2016 06:36 Souma wrote:On January 19 2016 06:17 Plansix wrote:On January 19 2016 06:12 Souma wrote:
Exactly.
On a more serious note though, and I know I'm speaking anecdotally, it often seems to me like liberal white Americans always try a little too hard to appease minorities. I remember when I was doing some canvassing for CALPIRG and almost everyone around me was a super liberal caucasian, and I'd make snarky comments about apathetic Asians which always led to interesting reactions.
But really, c'mon, some of the shit that the students on college campuses have done should absolutely be called out. The moment you start to allow people who are out of line to carry on without reprimanding them is the exact moment your protest becomes a joke. No, they are not always in the right, and they should absolutely be criticized when they aren't. Sure, but are you the one who decides what is out of line? But I am 100% sure that isn't my job. Not really yours either. Maybe leave it to them to police themselves. Also, I'm not liberal. You can ask my friends from Boston, who identify as liberal. Yes, other people can judge if they're out of line or not. That's how societal values work. People may disagree, but all the same. Surely if one of them took a bat to someone's face, you'd be able to deem that out of line. There's a difference between an individual acting as such and using such an incident to discredit an entire movement. Several people here and elsewhere have said "BLM has inconvenienced my life or so they have lost my respect/support" or some variation. The irony being that if they took the government systematically denying people of their constitutional rights and putting self preservation above justice as seriously as they took citizens shouting at other citizens we wouldn't even be having this conversation because years ago they would of said that the police have lost credibility and they can no longer respect them. If the members of the movement actually condemned said rogue actions, then people would be dumb to discredit the entire movement. The issue is when the movement tries to conceal, justify or not outright criticize said actions. If you're gonna protest, do it right, otherwise you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.
When you say “condemn rogue actions” you mean publically for your approval and review? It can’t be done privately. It has to be done where you can see it. And they need to respond to every youtube video that some rando puts up too?
In short, “Please protest in the prescribed manner that I find acceptable, otherwise your cause has not merit.” Protest the establishment while also trying to win approval of randos on the internet.
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