In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
On November 29 2015 10:15 Gorsameth wrote: I'm not a fan of the whole "blood on their hands" thing. If not for this then some other stupid thing would have made him kill people.
Mentally unstable people just need a push, that push can come from a 101 things.
Or from a candidate saying the exact same thing about a video that did not exist. All the while fundraising off of it.
On November 29 2015 10:08 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So if this turns out to be true then Carly Fiorina and elements of the GOP have blood on their hands. Shows how far the Republican party has gone in order to establish any political capital they have to appeal to the most divisive regardless of the consequences.
Except that if this stops just four abortions then this is a net gain for people who truly believe that abortion is murder. If that is your starting point then everyone has blood on their hands and they're doing their best to stop the bleeding.
On November 29 2015 10:08 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So if this turns out to be true then Carly Fiorina and elements of the GOP have blood on their hands. Shows how far the Republican party has gone in order to establish any political capital they have to appeal to the most divisive regardless of the consequences.
Except that if this stops just four abortions then this is a net gain for people who truly believe that abortion is murder. If that is your starting point then everyone has blood on their hands and they're doing their best to stop the bleeding.
There were/are already tweets going out to that effect.
Wait, there are actually human beings who use the "blood on their hands" line about stuff like this? Are you sure you guys aren't programmed robots?
Remember everyone, we should all love abortions or else random people will start shooting! LOL. Neither the makers of the videos nor any candidate suggested violence. Leftist delusion really is a remarkable thing.
On November 29 2015 10:38 Introvert wrote: Wait, there are actually human beings who use the "blood on their hands" line about stuff like this? Are you sure you guys aren't programmed robots?
Remember everyone, we should all love abortions or else random people will start shooting! LOL. Neither the makers of the videos nor any candidate suggested violence. Leftist delusion really is a remarkable thing.
No, they know just what to say to incite it without leaving themselves culpable for it.
Because everyone was at PP for an abortion and not the many other health services they provide (not that terrorists like this guy know or believe they provide other services thanks to the constant propaganda out of the Republican party).
On November 29 2015 10:15 Gorsameth wrote: I'm not a fan of the whole "blood on their hands" thing. If not for this then some other stupid thing would have made him kill people.
Mentally unstable people just need a push, that push can come from a 101 things.
In a way, I agree, hence my smiley. I don't think it's fair to hold Carly Fiorina personally accountable for this. However, it's not like it's unheard of that crazy people are pushed to the brink by extreme, hateful and deceitful rhetoric. Frankly, occasional incidents like these should, by now, be an expected consequence of an increasingly divisive and polarized political landscape, and thus, avoiding incidents like these should be one more reason to avoid using the type of language bound to incite the crazies. It's not like this is a situation where we have to choose between the truth + risking to invoke the crazies or not telling the truth - she invoked the crazies through lying.
So it's like, no, I don't think she's personally accountable in any way, and my 'bloodied hands' comment was very tongue in cheek, but I also think politicians (from both aisles) should be more responsible with how they word themselves, because the foremost reason for being a politician is not to win an election, but to serve your country, state and county, and exaggerating to the point where it's flat out untrue, especially in the issue of abortion, where there's a long history of murders, bombings and threats, can predictably cause this type of backlash..
I mean, there is also a limit to what you can say before you should assume personal responsibility - if your political campaign literally consists of telling voters that the other candidate/political option is an evil worse than hitler and that armageddon will happen if the other side wins, you're basically also saying that no measure taken to combat the other candidate is too extreme.
On November 29 2015 10:38 Introvert wrote: Wait, there are actually human beings who use the "blood on their hands" line about stuff like this? Are you sure you guys aren't programmed robots?
Remember everyone, we should all love abortions or else random people will start shooting! LOL. Neither the makers of the videos nor any candidate suggested violence. Leftist delusion really is a remarkable thing.
No, they know just what to say to incite it without leaving themselves culpable for it.
Because everyone was at PP for an abortion and not the many other health services they provide (not that terrorists like this guy know or believe they provide other services thanks to the constant propaganda out of the Republican party).
Just to be clear, you think 'they' as in GOP candidates, said those things to incite people to shoot up PP clinics?
On November 29 2015 10:38 Introvert wrote: Wait, there are actually human beings who use the "blood on their hands" line about stuff like this? Are you sure you guys aren't programmed robots?
Remember everyone, we should all love abortions or else random people will start shooting! LOL. Neither the makers of the videos nor any candidate suggested violence. Leftist delusion really is a remarkable thing.
No, they know just what to say to incite it without leaving themselves culpable for it.
Because everyone was at PP for an abortion and not the many other health services they provide (not that terrorists like this guy know or believe they provide other services thanks to the constant propaganda out of the Republican party).
Oh, what did they say that was inciting violence? The rest of the post is of course irrelevant, in typical GH fashion.
This is part of the GH theory of "people on the right hate X, they just use code words to say it." So I suppose this is not a surprise.
On November 29 2015 10:38 Introvert wrote: Wait, there are actually human beings who use the "blood on their hands" line about stuff like this? Are you sure you guys aren't programmed robots?
Remember everyone, we should all love abortions or else random people will start shooting! LOL. Neither the makers of the videos nor any candidate suggested violence. Leftist delusion really is a remarkable thing.
No, they know just what to say to incite it without leaving themselves culpable for it.
Because everyone was at PP for an abortion and not the many other health services they provide (not that terrorists like this guy know or believe they provide other services thanks to the constant propaganda out of the Republican party).
Just to be clear, you think 'they' as in GOP candidates, said those things to incite people to shoot up PP clinics?
No that's bad press. They are intentionally feeding susceptible people "red meat" in order to garner their support, and are fully aware of who and what they are appealing to. Many of them are intentionally going as far as they can to say what those people want to hear without having to be clearly responsible when they inevitably go to far. Trump retweeting Neo-Nazi propaganda would be another example along those lines.
On November 29 2015 10:38 Introvert wrote: Wait, there are actually human beings who use the "blood on their hands" line about stuff like this? Are you sure you guys aren't programmed robots?
Remember everyone, we should all love abortions or else random people will start shooting! LOL. Neither the makers of the videos nor any candidate suggested violence. Leftist delusion really is a remarkable thing.
No, they know just what to say to incite it without leaving themselves culpable for it.
Because everyone was at PP for an abortion and not the many other health services they provide (not that terrorists like this guy know or believe they provide other services thanks to the constant propaganda out of the Republican party).
Oh, what did they say that was inciting violence? The rest of the post is of course irrelevant, in typical GH fashion.
This is part of the GH theory of "people on the right hate X, they just use code words to say it." So I suppose this is not a surprise.
A recent example would be Cruz, Huckabee, and Jindal when they went to a Kevin Swanson event. They don't overtly say to be violent, they just repeat lines and attend events hosted by folks who do say that kind of stuff or get as close as legally possible.
To be more specific to the abortion issue, there was that one time when Wendy Davis got called a "terrorist" for filibustering.
Hopefully it passes and other states adopt similar laws.
Hawaii likely will become the first U.S. state to ban the use of elephants, bears and other exotic wild animals for entertainment purposes.
The Hawaii Department of Agriculture board on Tuesday unanimously approved a proposed rules change that would define "dangerous wild animals" and prohibit the import of such animals "for exhibition or performance in public entertainment shows such as circuses, carnivals and state fairs." The rules make exceptions for commercial filming in television or movies and in government zoos.
Animals listed in the proposal include big cats, primates, elephants, rhinoceros, hippopotamus, bears, hyenas and crocodiles.
The move comes just three days after "Tyke Elephant Outlaw," a documentary about a circus elephant that went on a deadly rampage in Honolulu two decades ago, made its Hawaii premiere.
Hawaii likely will become the first U.S. state to ban the use of elephants, bears and other exotic wild animals for entertainment purposes.
The Hawaii Department of Agriculture board on Tuesday unanimously approved a proposed rules change that would define "dangerous wild animals" and prohibit the import of such animals "for exhibition or performance in public entertainment shows such as circuses, carnivals and state fairs." The rules make exceptions for commercial filming in television or movies and in government zoos.
Animals listed in the proposal include big cats, primates, elephants, rhinoceros, hippopotamus, bears, hyenas and crocodiles.
The move comes just three days after "Tyke Elephant Outlaw," a documentary about a circus elephant that went on a deadly rampage in Honolulu two decades ago, made its Hawaii premiere.
On November 29 2015 10:38 Introvert wrote: Wait, there are actually human beings who use the "blood on their hands" line about stuff like this? Are you sure you guys aren't programmed robots?
Remember everyone, we should all love abortions or else random people will start shooting! LOL. Neither the makers of the videos nor any candidate suggested violence. Leftist delusion really is a remarkable thing.
No, they know just what to say to incite it without leaving themselves culpable for it.
Because everyone was at PP for an abortion and not the many other health services they provide (not that terrorists like this guy know or believe they provide other services thanks to the constant propaganda out of the Republican party).
Just to be clear, you think 'they' as in GOP candidates, said those things to incite people to shoot up PP clinics?
No that's bad press. They are intentionally feeding susceptible people "red meat" in order to garner their support, and are fully aware of who and what they are appealing to. Many of them are intentionally going as far as they can to say what those people want to hear without having to be clearly responsible when they inevitably go to far. Trump retweeting Neo-Nazi propaganda would be another example along those lines.
On November 29 2015 10:38 Introvert wrote: Wait, there are actually human beings who use the "blood on their hands" line about stuff like this? Are you sure you guys aren't programmed robots?
Remember everyone, we should all love abortions or else random people will start shooting! LOL. Neither the makers of the videos nor any candidate suggested violence. Leftist delusion really is a remarkable thing.
No, they know just what to say to incite it without leaving themselves culpable for it.
Because everyone was at PP for an abortion and not the many other health services they provide (not that terrorists like this guy know or believe they provide other services thanks to the constant propaganda out of the Republican party).
Oh, what did they say that was inciting violence? The rest of the post is of course irrelevant, in typical GH fashion.
This is part of the GH theory of "people on the right hate X, they just use code words to say it." So I suppose this is not a surprise.
A recent example would be Cruz, Huckabee, and Jindal when they went to a Kevin Swanson event. They don't overtly say to be violent, they just repeat lines and attend events hosted by folks who do say that kind of stuff or get as close as legally possible.
I didn't see anything about this Swanson event, but that didn't really answer the question. What did they say that made this guy go violent?
Surely if you wanted violence you could do better than a deranged man with a criminal history of strange things (if that part of his history is true).
I'm just fascinated at how much you hate people on the right that you think they are out there trying to get people killed.
Say you have 100 pro lifers. 10 planned to vote pro life and are super mad about it., 40 planned to vote pro life but are generally moderate, 50 were pro life but didn't really think much about it. As a politician you make up some outrage in the hope that it pushes the 50 who didn't really think about it into the same camp as the 40 for whom it was a voting issue. However you can't narrowly target it, all 100 are nudged to a greater extreme by the propaganda. You get the 50 to vote on it but 20 of the 40 moderates become crazy mad about it and the 10 people who were already screaming abuse outside the abortion clinics go get their guns.
Numbers are arbitrary but you get the idea. And while this is all free speech it is not responsible speech. This is why Obama holds back for facts after terror attacks etc and why public figures are generally PC. It's not that Obama doesn't think the same things as the rest of us, it's that he knows that as a public figure he has to hold his speech to a higher standard. It's part of being presidential. If you know you have a huge audience and you know that audience contains a large number of idiots then you adjust accordingly.
The PP video people and the politicians who knowingly promoted it for political gain are not responsible for attacks like this but their reckless actions are responsible for creating a climate that makes attacks like this more likely.
On November 29 2015 11:20 Introvert wrote: What "reckless actions?" Opposing abortion?
Repeating and promoting what they surely knew were lies about the practices of Planned Parenthood. The claims Carly made about the contents of the Planned Parenthood video were false, they simply weren't in the video. She claimed to have seen things that she could not have seen. It scored her some points among the crowd that don't fact check but it was irresponsible to promote those lies to the nation.
It's not about abortion. You could equally do it with computer games or vaccines or anything else. When you stand on a podium and talk about a link between vaccines and autism then even if you don't tell people to not get their kids vaccinated you still know that a lot of them will take that message. Public figures can speak freely but part of being presidential is knowing to hold your speech to a higher standard due to the power that speech can have.
On November 29 2015 10:38 Introvert wrote: Wait, there are actually human beings who use the "blood on their hands" line about stuff like this? Are you sure you guys aren't programmed robots?
Remember everyone, we should all love abortions or else random people will start shooting! LOL. Neither the makers of the videos nor any candidate suggested violence. Leftist delusion really is a remarkable thing.
No, they know just what to say to incite it without leaving themselves culpable for it.
Because everyone was at PP for an abortion and not the many other health services they provide (not that terrorists like this guy know or believe they provide other services thanks to the constant propaganda out of the Republican party).
Just to be clear, you think 'they' as in GOP candidates, said those things to incite people to shoot up PP clinics?
No that's bad press. They are intentionally feeding susceptible people "red meat" in order to garner their support, and are fully aware of who and what they are appealing to. Many of them are intentionally going as far as they can to say what those people want to hear without having to be clearly responsible when they inevitably go to far. Trump retweeting Neo-Nazi propaganda would be another example along those lines.
On November 29 2015 10:53 Introvert wrote:
On November 29 2015 10:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 29 2015 10:38 Introvert wrote: Wait, there are actually human beings who use the "blood on their hands" line about stuff like this? Are you sure you guys aren't programmed robots?
Remember everyone, we should all love abortions or else random people will start shooting! LOL. Neither the makers of the videos nor any candidate suggested violence. Leftist delusion really is a remarkable thing.
No, they know just what to say to incite it without leaving themselves culpable for it.
Because everyone was at PP for an abortion and not the many other health services they provide (not that terrorists like this guy know or believe they provide other services thanks to the constant propaganda out of the Republican party).
Oh, what did they say that was inciting violence? The rest of the post is of course irrelevant, in typical GH fashion.
This is part of the GH theory of "people on the right hate X, they just use code words to say it." So I suppose this is not a surprise.
A recent example would be Cruz, Huckabee, and Jindal when they went to a Kevin Swanson event. They don't overtly say to be violent, they just repeat lines and attend events hosted by folks who do say that kind of stuff or get as close as legally possible.
I didn't see anything about this Swanson event, but that didn't really answer the question. What did they say that made this guy go violent?
Surely if you wanted violence you could do better than a deranged man with a criminal history of strange things.
I'm just fascinated at how much you hate people on the right that you think they are out there trying to get people killed.
I said they don't actually want people to get violent (hence why they haven't said anything about it, other than Cruz's praying).
When asked to clarify I mentioned they intentionally appeal to people who want to hear the worst. As an example I showed how after a guy called Wendy Davis a "TERRORIST" (emphasis mine) for filibustering an anti-choice/abortion bill, Ted Cruz proudly claims that same idiot's endorsement.
It's pretty simple. If someone is a "terrorist" what isn't okay to do to/against them in these folks eyes? So for instance Bill Zedler didn't advocate for violence against Davis, but he did state that she is someone (a terrorist) who he knows his supporters believe deserve the worst treatment.
To put a bow on it, you have Trump advocating to bring back waterboarding and maybe other forms of torture for "terrorists".
EDIT: Couple things I missed,
I don't hate people on the right, sometimes I'm disgusted, disturbed, repulsed, etc.. by some folks bigotry, and fear mongering, etc... and they tend to be on the right politically, I honestly don't have the energy to "hate" people, but I don't have a problem calling them out for their crap.
Totally not surprised you hadn't heard about the Swanson event.
Kwark said it better than me. I don't think they want to turn people violent, but they know that in an effort to rally people who are more ambivalent they are revving up those that are already on the edge.
On November 29 2015 11:08 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Hopefully it passes and other states adopt similar laws.
Hawaii likely will become the first U.S. state to ban the use of elephants, bears and other exotic wild animals for entertainment purposes.
The Hawaii Department of Agriculture board on Tuesday unanimously approved a proposed rules change that would define "dangerous wild animals" and prohibit the import of such animals "for exhibition or performance in public entertainment shows such as circuses, carnivals and state fairs." The rules make exceptions for commercial filming in television or movies and in government zoos.
Animals listed in the proposal include big cats, primates, elephants, rhinoceros, hippopotamus, bears, hyenas and crocodiles.
The move comes just three days after "Tyke Elephant Outlaw," a documentary about a circus elephant that went on a deadly rampage in Honolulu two decades ago, made its Hawaii premiere.
EPT
