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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
November 19 2015 18:30 GMT
#50761
you need to have the ability to differentiate your encryption protection in order to offer a good encryption product anyway. if you don't have the ability to select who to protect, then the segment of abusive users will severely affect the security of your non-abusive users.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44439 Posts
November 19 2015 18:41 GMT
#50762
On November 20 2015 03:26 oneofthem wrote:
keep thinking that. these technical barriers are used to hide everything from terrorist preaching to white collar crimes. american liberty never included immunity from discovery by court order.

I have no problem with narrowly targeted laws to find evidence against specific individuals. I have a problem with laws that brand everyone suspicious but promise to exonerate the innocent from suspicion once they have gained sufficient proof.

We let police violate peoples' homes with a warrant, but not without. Data should be no different.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
November 19 2015 18:47 GMT
#50763
the specific thing hillary was talking about is complete encryption stuff. it's not broad surveillance.

also would not surprise me if a lot of this noise about the nsa is putin lackeys
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44439 Posts
November 19 2015 18:49 GMT
#50764
On November 20 2015 03:47 oneofthem wrote:
the specific thing hillary was talking about is complete encryption stuff. it's not broad surveillance.

also would not surprise me if a lot of this noise about the nsa is putin lackeys

Is there not a link between encryption and surveillance? Literally everything online is gathered but only that which can be decrypted is subjected to surveillance.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
November 19 2015 18:54 GMT
#50765
surveillance is gated by other means, internal procedures and legal authorization etc. for instance, requiring a court order in order to open up an email.

same as your door can be smashed down by a police squad but they need a warrant.

while it's not 100% foolproof, the current legal safeguards isn't as lose and indiscriminate as your data being sold to ad agencies and scammers.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-19 18:56:16
November 19 2015 18:56 GMT
#50766
Donld trump being donald trump

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34873057

Mr Trump said in an interview with Yahoo Politics that he would consider "drastic measures" for monitoring the community.
Asked if that may include registering Muslims in a database or using special ID cards, he did not rule it out.
Islamic State militants said they carried out the attacks in Paris.
The suicide bombs and shootings at various venues across the French capital killed 129 people on Friday.
"We're going to have to do things we never did before," said Mr Trump, a frontrunner in the Republican race for the White House.
"And some people are going to be upset about it, but I think that now everybody is feeling security is going to rule."
He told Yahoo Politics certain things would have to be done "that we never thought would happen in this country in terms of information and learning about the enemy".

The US is going to have to do certain things that were "frankly unthinkable a year ago," said the billionaire businessman, who has previously said mosques should come under surveillance and Syrians should be deported.

"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
Deathstar
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
9150 Posts
November 19 2015 18:57 GMT
#50767
This is all so surreal
https://www.yahoo.com/politics/donald-trump-has-big-plans-1303117537878070.html

Yahoo News asked Trump whether this level of tracking might require registering Muslims in a database or giving them a form of special identification that noted their religion. He wouldn’t rule it out.

“We’re going to have to — we’re going to have to look at a lot of things very closely,” Trump said when presented with the idea. “We’re going to have to look at the mosques. We’re going to have to look very, very carefully.”
rip passion
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22703 Posts
November 19 2015 18:58 GMT
#50768
On November 20 2015 03:54 oneofthem wrote:
surveillance is gated by other means, internal procedures and legal authorization etc. for instance, requiring a court order in order to open up an email.

same as your door can be smashed down by a police squad but they need a warrant.

while it's not 100% foolproof, the current legal safeguards isn't as lose and indiscriminate as your data being sold to ad agencies and scammers.

The difference is I know if my door is being smashed down without a warrant.
The general population has no way of knowing if their emails are being opened without a court order.

It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 19 2015 19:00 GMT
#50769
Ben Carson likened Syrian refugees fleeing the country’s bloody civil war and Islamic State violence to dogs on Thursday.

Speaking to reporters in Alabama, Carson stressed that the United States wants smart leaders who care about people, but noted there should always be a balance between safety and humanitarian concerns.

“For instance, you know, if there is a rabid dog running around your neighborhood, you’re probably not going to assume something good about that dog, and you’re probably gonna put your children out of the way,” Carson said. “Doesn’t mean that you hate all dogs by any stretch of the imagination.”

Continuing his analogy, the Republican presidential candidate said that screening refugees is like questioning how you protect your children, even though you love dogs and will call the Humane Society to take the dog away to reestablish a safe environment.

“By the same token, we have to have in place screening mechanisms that allow us to determine who the mad dogs are, quite frankly,” he added. “Who are the people who wanna come in here and hurt us and wanna destroy us? Until we know how to do that, just like it would be foolish to put your child out in the neighborhood knowing that that was going on, it’s foolish for us to accept people if we cannot have the appropriate type of screening.”

The comments come as the retired neurosurgeon’s foreign policy chops have come under fire in recent days — even by those within his own camp. The Obama administration plans to admit 10,000 Syrian refugees into the U.S. in 2016.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
November 19 2015 19:02 GMT
#50770
On November 20 2015 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2015 03:54 oneofthem wrote:
surveillance is gated by other means, internal procedures and legal authorization etc. for instance, requiring a court order in order to open up an email.

same as your door can be smashed down by a police squad but they need a warrant.

while it's not 100% foolproof, the current legal safeguards isn't as lose and indiscriminate as your data being sold to ad agencies and scammers.

The difference is I know if my door is being smashed down without a warrant.
The general population has no way of knowing if their emails are being opened without a court order.


do you know when the police are coming to smash your door? probably not.

the point is that there is an important distinction between the possibility of discovery and 'privacy' harm. you need to really look at what privacy harm consists of before reflexively acting out and ignoring very important concerns.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44439 Posts
November 19 2015 19:05 GMT
#50771
On November 20 2015 03:54 oneofthem wrote:
surveillance is gated by other means, internal procedures and legal authorization etc. for instance, requiring a court order in order to open up an email.

same as your door can be smashed down by a police squad but they need a warrant.

while it's not 100% foolproof, the current legal safeguards isn't as lose and indiscriminate as your data being sold to ad agencies and scammers.

Internal procedures and legal authorization are not meaningful gates. If you think they are you haven't been paying attention. If it can be read, it has been read. If it can be listened in on, it has been listened in on.
https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3sf8xx/im_bill_binney_former_nsa_tech_director_worked/cwwpx19

Imagine if the Secret Service were continually breaking your door down and ransacking your house without a warrant. Like a few times a week you'd come home and all your drawers would be emptied out on the floor, your papers would be everywhere etc. If I were to tell you not to worry about it because the police need a warrant to do that I doubt you'd be comforted. I think you'd probably want to get your house a moat. This is no different.

A system based on faith that the secret police (for that is what the NSA are) will not violate the law is only good for as long as they do not routinely break the law and for as long as the lawmakers and courts care about those violations. You do not live in such a state. The next best option is to make it so that they cannot break the law.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44439 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-19 19:07:01
November 19 2015 19:06 GMT
#50772
On November 20 2015 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2015 03:54 oneofthem wrote:
surveillance is gated by other means, internal procedures and legal authorization etc. for instance, requiring a court order in order to open up an email.

same as your door can be smashed down by a police squad but they need a warrant.

while it's not 100% foolproof, the current legal safeguards isn't as lose and indiscriminate as your data being sold to ad agencies and scammers.

The difference is I know if my door is being smashed down without a warrant.
The general population has no way of knowing if their emails are being opened without a court order.


Yes they do. Your emails are being read.
Sorry. It's that simple. If it makes you feel any better, so are everyone else's.

NSA overreach is not a hypothetical "how would I know if I'm a target" anymore. You are a target.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
November 19 2015 19:08 GMT
#50773
On November 20 2015 03:56 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
Donld trump being donald trump

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34873057

Show nested quote +
Mr Trump said in an interview with Yahoo Politics that he would consider "drastic measures" for monitoring the community.
Asked if that may include registering Muslims in a database or using special ID cards, he did not rule it out.
Islamic State militants said they carried out the attacks in Paris.
The suicide bombs and shootings at various venues across the French capital killed 129 people on Friday.
"We're going to have to do things we never did before," said Mr Trump, a frontrunner in the Republican race for the White House.
"And some people are going to be upset about it, but I think that now everybody is feeling security is going to rule."
He told Yahoo Politics certain things would have to be done "that we never thought would happen in this country in terms of information and learning about the enemy".

The US is going to have to do certain things that were "frankly unthinkable a year ago," said the billionaire businessman, who has previously said mosques should come under surveillance and Syrians should be deported.


Godwin's law is a thing, but there is only once place to go in this line of discussion. And we have a Mayor praising the Japaneses internment camps. Where am I?
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22703 Posts
November 19 2015 19:13 GMT
#50774
On November 20 2015 04:06 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2015 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:
On November 20 2015 03:54 oneofthem wrote:
surveillance is gated by other means, internal procedures and legal authorization etc. for instance, requiring a court order in order to open up an email.

same as your door can be smashed down by a police squad but they need a warrant.

while it's not 100% foolproof, the current legal safeguards isn't as lose and indiscriminate as your data being sold to ad agencies and scammers.

The difference is I know if my door is being smashed down without a warrant.
The general population has no way of knowing if their emails are being opened without a court order.


Yes they do. Your emails are being read.
Sorry. It's that simple. If it makes you feel any better, so are everyone else's.

NSA overreach is not a hypothetical "how would I know if I'm a target" anymore. You are a target.

Oh I know, my point is that trusting internal procedure and legal authorization does very little when it is almost impossible to detect unlawful intrusions of privacy.
Hence the increase of encrypted services.

It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
November 19 2015 19:13 GMT
#50775
On November 20 2015 04:05 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2015 03:54 oneofthem wrote:
surveillance is gated by other means, internal procedures and legal authorization etc. for instance, requiring a court order in order to open up an email.

same as your door can be smashed down by a police squad but they need a warrant.

while it's not 100% foolproof, the current legal safeguards isn't as lose and indiscriminate as your data being sold to ad agencies and scammers.

Internal procedures and legal authorization are not meaningful gates. If you think they are you haven't been paying attention. If it can be read, it has been read. If it can be listened in on, it has been listened in on.
https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3sf8xx/im_bill_binney_former_nsa_tech_director_worked/cwwpx19

Imagine if the Secret Service were continually breaking your door down and ransacking your house without a warrant. Like a few times a week you'd come home and all your drawers would be emptied out on the floor, your papers would be everywhere etc. If I were to tell you not to worry about it because the police need a warrant to do that I doubt you'd be comforted. I think you'd probably want to get your house a moat. This is no different.

A system based on faith that the secret police (for that is what the NSA are) will not violate the law is only good for as long as they do not routinely break the law and for as long as the lawmakers and courts care about those violations. You do not live in such a state. The next best option is to make it so that they cannot break the law.
i don't want to rehash old discussions, but the content collection is for archival, i.e. establishing the possibility of search. it's not active search.

as far as active searches go, the broader the search, the less privacy harm. preliminary search is not going to be intrusive and extensive to the extent of 'looking over your shoulders.' the minimization process they have is designed to limit unnecessary intrusions. the FISA court has to authorize at least the broad terms of an investigation.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
CannonsNCarriers
Profile Joined April 2010
United States638 Posts
November 19 2015 19:15 GMT
#50776
On November 20 2015 03:57 Deathstar wrote:
This is all so surreal
https://www.yahoo.com/politics/donald-trump-has-big-plans-1303117537878070.html

Show nested quote +
Yahoo News asked Trump whether this level of tracking might require registering Muslims in a database or giving them a form of special identification that noted their religion. He wouldn’t rule it out.

“We’re going to have to — we’re going to have to look at a lot of things very closely,” Trump said when presented with the idea. “We’re going to have to look at the mosques. We’re going to have to look very, very carefully.”


Do you remember when Republicans were terrified of big government and thought it was stepping on their freedoms because of the tax-penalty enforced mandate to buy health insurance? Glad to see they came around on the use of federal government power.
Dun tuch my cheezbrgr
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44439 Posts
November 19 2015 19:16 GMT
#50777
On November 20 2015 04:13 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2015 04:05 KwarK wrote:
On November 20 2015 03:54 oneofthem wrote:
surveillance is gated by other means, internal procedures and legal authorization etc. for instance, requiring a court order in order to open up an email.

same as your door can be smashed down by a police squad but they need a warrant.

while it's not 100% foolproof, the current legal safeguards isn't as lose and indiscriminate as your data being sold to ad agencies and scammers.

Internal procedures and legal authorization are not meaningful gates. If you think they are you haven't been paying attention. If it can be read, it has been read. If it can be listened in on, it has been listened in on.
https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3sf8xx/im_bill_binney_former_nsa_tech_director_worked/cwwpx19

Imagine if the Secret Service were continually breaking your door down and ransacking your house without a warrant. Like a few times a week you'd come home and all your drawers would be emptied out on the floor, your papers would be everywhere etc. If I were to tell you not to worry about it because the police need a warrant to do that I doubt you'd be comforted. I think you'd probably want to get your house a moat. This is no different.

A system based on faith that the secret police (for that is what the NSA are) will not violate the law is only good for as long as they do not routinely break the law and for as long as the lawmakers and courts care about those violations. You do not live in such a state. The next best option is to make it so that they cannot break the law.
i don't want to rehash old discussions, but the content collection is for archival, i.e. establishing the possibility of search. it's not active search.

as far as active searches go, the broader the search, the less privacy harm. preliminary search is not going to be intrusive and extensive to the extent of 'looking over your shoulders.' the minimization process they have is designed to limit unnecessary intrusions. the FISA court has to authorize at least the broad terms of an investigation.

That amounts to "if the Secret Service picked the lock rather than breaking the door down, and if they put things back where they found them after searching then really, what is the harm?". And the FISA court is a joke.

I'll take the moat. Even if enemies get one too.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22703 Posts
November 19 2015 19:18 GMT
#50778
On November 20 2015 04:13 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2015 04:05 KwarK wrote:
On November 20 2015 03:54 oneofthem wrote:
surveillance is gated by other means, internal procedures and legal authorization etc. for instance, requiring a court order in order to open up an email.

same as your door can be smashed down by a police squad but they need a warrant.

while it's not 100% foolproof, the current legal safeguards isn't as lose and indiscriminate as your data being sold to ad agencies and scammers.

Internal procedures and legal authorization are not meaningful gates. If you think they are you haven't been paying attention. If it can be read, it has been read. If it can be listened in on, it has been listened in on.
https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3sf8xx/im_bill_binney_former_nsa_tech_director_worked/cwwpx19

Imagine if the Secret Service were continually breaking your door down and ransacking your house without a warrant. Like a few times a week you'd come home and all your drawers would be emptied out on the floor, your papers would be everywhere etc. If I were to tell you not to worry about it because the police need a warrant to do that I doubt you'd be comforted. I think you'd probably want to get your house a moat. This is no different.

A system based on faith that the secret police (for that is what the NSA are) will not violate the law is only good for as long as they do not routinely break the law and for as long as the lawmakers and courts care about those violations. You do not live in such a state. The next best option is to make it so that they cannot break the law.
i don't want to rehash old discussions, but the content collection is for archival, i.e. establishing the possibility of search. it's not active search.

as far as active searches go, the broader the search, the less privacy harm. preliminary search is not going to be intrusive and extensive to the extent of 'looking over your shoulders.' the minimization process they have is designed to limit unnecessary intrusions. the FISA court has to authorize at least the broad terms of an investigation.

You have 0 ways of knowing if your emails are being read. Yeah officially they need court orders but when its impossible to detect the desire to get those orders swiftly goes away and they instead just go read everything all the time because you cant know it happened anyway.

As I said previously, You know when your door is smashed in and you can ask to see the warrant.
You will never know your digital privacy was breached, so how will you ever ask to see the warrant?
(ofc if it ever goes to court you could but we are talking about innocent people here).
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Deathstar
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
9150 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-19 19:25:08
November 19 2015 19:24 GMT
#50779
On November 20 2015 04:15 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2015 03:57 Deathstar wrote:
This is all so surreal
https://www.yahoo.com/politics/donald-trump-has-big-plans-1303117537878070.html

Yahoo News asked Trump whether this level of tracking might require registering Muslims in a database or giving them a form of special identification that noted their religion. He wouldn’t rule it out.

“We’re going to have to — we’re going to have to look at a lot of things very closely,” Trump said when presented with the idea. “We’re going to have to look at the mosques. We’re going to have to look very, very carefully.”


Do you remember when Republicans were terrified of big government and thought it was stepping on their freedoms because of the tax-penalty enforced mandate to buy health insurance? Glad to see they came around on the use of federal government power.


I'm sure if the health insurance plan was under a Republican president, the Republicans would be okay with it (because they are okay with it),
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/06/26/poll-republicans-hate-obamacare-but-like-most-of-what-it-does/

It's partisan politics.

That said, what a time to be alive.
rip passion
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
November 19 2015 19:27 GMT
#50780
I really hope one of the Republican candidates has the back bone to go after Trump for pile of non-sense. It could be a great moment for Rubio if he just calls and spade a spade.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
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