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On November 19 2015 16:39 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 16:14 Nyxisto wrote:On November 19 2015 14:50 bo1b wrote:On November 19 2015 14:45 KwarK wrote:
You were the one claiming that the peaceful and stable nature of 1930s and 1940s Europe combined with the absence of videos confirming the widespread prejudice against Jews made them uniquely good immigrants, not me. All I pointed out was a few facts from history like the existence of the First and Second World Wars and the fact that anti-Muslim prejudice in a world with cameras is likely to have more photos than anti-Jewish prejudice before the technology existed. You were the one using those factors to distinguish Jewish and Muslim refugees, all I did was point out that there was some historical context missing. No, I was claiming that plansix using rhetoric from 1938 regarding Jewish refugees in comparison to refugees from the middle east was retarded at best and dishonest at worst. The little problem is that people will always say that and 20 years later everybody is ashamed because they noticed they were inhumane jerks, for once we could actually skip the ignorance phase. It's always the same rationalization. "nonono then it was different those guys right now don't deserve our empathy, like a dozen of those million guys could probably be terrorists!" The solution to Syria is to import every single person from Syria in it, that way there will be a 100% decline in casualties in Syria. Only 20million or so to go.
Right, when all else fails resort to caustic sarcasm.
Edit: Nevermind looking at the posting history, its all caustic sarcasm. My apologies for giving you too much credit.
Bro you aint got no solutions. No one does. There is no fix. There are only things you can do to mitigate the fallout at this point. Its pretty catch 22, but there are things that can be done. The ones you seem to be leaning toward are divisive and have little evidence to suggest that they will work and lots of evidence to suggest that they make things better.
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There is literally no evidence that mass immigration is a solution to anything. None. There are opinion articles, there are feel good editorials on various left leaning news sources, but there is not a single piece of concrete evidence that importing hundreds of thousands of people from a war torn area is a good thing. There is on the other hand, plenty on the contrary.
The import everyone from Syria comment should be fairly obvious btw, there won't stop being a civil war there until there's a winner, or until the fightings relocated to somewhere else. Taking a few million people out (like Merkel is doing) won't achieve anything long term in that area, but it will cause a heavy economic burden on Germany, as well as put a huge number of people who have almost nothing in common with the nation they are relocating to.
It's ok though, people will feel good about themselves for a year or so until the unrest kicks in, like it always has.
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The United States itself is evidence that mass immigration is a good thing. We don't want to be Australia(except for gun laws  ), so take your island nation attitude elsewhere brah brah.
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On November 19 2015 20:54 farvacola wrote:The United States itself is evidence that mass immigration is a good thing. We don't want to be Australia(except for gun laws ), so take your island nation attitude elsewhere brah brah.
Australia and America are almost identical in culture brah brah
Travel around a bit before saying something that retarded.
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Lol, and therein lies the error. I'm not gonna pretend that my having traveled to Australia gives me license to describe the culture with any sort of accuracy. But yes, I'm sure you having traveled to the states means you can compare entire cultures, geographical differentiation notwithstanding. It's not like the US is a big place or anything!
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You don't think there is an overlying culture in the U.S? I'm interested in your answer, I've lived there half my life. Actually is 13 years of life enough to make a judgement on the massive similarities between the two nations? How long in your esteemed opinion be long enough? Or is what you just said before about "We" (in regards to the US) not actually a we, since you yourself have surely not lived in each state to make a judgement? These things confuse me.
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I mean, I'm an insufferable knowitall and even I won't pretend that I can put out an accurate description of US culture at large. There may be some very general discriptors that one can rely on, but having lived in Ohio, DC, Texas, and outside Seattle, I can firmly say that those general descriptors leave much to be desired. That's why when I say "we," I'm doing so in a political manner
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I know you're doing it in a political manner, I just think that you're splitting at hairs. I also think that the history of mass immigration is so very different to what is happening now that it's not exactly a good comparison.
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On November 19 2015 12:07 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 11:46 kwizach wrote:On November 19 2015 11:17 RenSC2 wrote:
The only thing it takes to get over this roadblock is to ignore political correctness on this issue. Respecting human rights is "political correctness", now? Let me fix your post: "The only thing it takes to get over this roadblock is to ignore any shred of human decency and empathy you might have left, and fully embrace bigotry and right-wing xenophobic myths". So proposing that we take in more immigrants than currently proposed is "ignoring any shred of human decency and empathy"? Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Reading comprehension fail? Logic fail? I suggest that we can do the most good as a country by taking in the women and children. Setting up planes or ships and getting those women and children across the Atlantic and setting them up in America. If we can get past the sexism of the solution, it actually ends up being a better solution for everyone... the able bodied men fleeing to Europe aren't leaving their mothers/sisters/wives/children in a warzone on the hopes that they'll eventually get proper clearance. Instead, those men know that their families are safe in America and can make the journey to Europe with confidence or stay and fight with confidence.
You're not sure how I came to that conclusion? Perhaps by reading your post, in which you advocate denying entry to every single male adult refugee? How exactly is it a "reading comprehension fail" or a "logic fail" to condemn exactly what you're advocating? Or do you not know what "reading comprehension" means?
You can do the most good as a country by refusing all male adults, and it would be "a better solution for everyone"? Here's a little reality check: the best solution for everyone would be to not refuse male adult refugees by default, and to refuse to indulge in the kind of xenophobic and fear-mongering rhetoric that has become typical of Republicans.
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On November 19 2015 20:58 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 20:54 farvacola wrote:The United States itself is evidence that mass immigration is a good thing. We don't want to be Australia(except for gun laws ), so take your island nation attitude elsewhere brah brah. Australia and America are almost identical in culture brah brah
Whatt.. I dont think you can say that for any 2 countries. Ive been to Australia a few times and Ive lived all along the east and west coasts.
Its massively different, there are similiarities sure, but no more so than there are similarities between the US and Canada.
The US is wayyyyy more prudish than Aussie culture has ever been.
On November 19 2015 21:23 bo1b wrote:
I know you're doing it in a political manner, I just think that you're splitting at hairs. I also think that the history of mass immigration is so very different to what is happening now that it's not exactly a good comparison.
How so ?
The underlying base in relating the most recent large scale migration from WW's is mostly the same is people fleeing mass persecution and violence. You just replaced Nazi spies and worms hiding amongst Jewish refugees and assylum with seekers with ISIS agents amongst people from the Middle East. Turned out pretty fine.
Also you know USA all immigrants. Australia a lot in common with aborigines have you ? Also the conservative govt has been inviting economic migrants for ages for shit they need.
They are more than happy to let anyone come in from places like the subcontinent, the middle east or east asia to come drive their trucks from Perth to Brisbane, its actually pretty popular back home, not worried about terrorists sneaking in there are we ?
+ Show Spoiler +. I could go of on a tangent on the treatment of aboriginies but thats besides the point. Suffice to say, playing a token didgeridoo to inaugrate sporting events is like the best way of fixing that one that people seem to have come up with so I suppose thats your evidence for mass migration being a bad thing. The indigenous get fucked, but only when the visitors are unilaterally uninvited, not so the case here
New Zealand, South Africa... want me to go on?
If anything the lessons learnt and the fact that the world has progressed so much should make it easier. Learning lessons from history is hard. Knowing history in the first place apparently even harder.
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Faith-based groups, who play a key role in resettling refugees to the United States, say they are dismayed by the wave of anti-refugee fervor set off by the Paris terrorist attacks and are urging supporters to contact elected officials on behalf of victims of the Syrian civil war.
Evangelical Christians, as well as Christians more broadly, are a core group in the Republican electoral base and are among the most passionate advocates for aiding refugees.
A push by Republican presidential candidates to ban Syrian refugees "does not reflect what we've been hearing from our constituencies, which are evangelical churches across the country," said Jenny Yang, vice president for advocacy at World Relief, an evangelical organization that helps resettle refugees. "Most of the people have been saying we want to continue to work with refugees, that what happened in Paris ... doesn’t reflect who refugees are."
Reports that a Syrian migrant may have played a role in last week's attacks in Paris, which killed around 130 people, have set off a GOP-led backlash over the Obama administration's plans to admit 10,000 Syrian refugees next year. More than half of U.S. governors have said they do not want Syrian refugees resettled in their states, while House Speaker Paul Ryan says he wants a vote this week on GOP-drafted legislation to halt the administration's plans.
World Relief is one of nine not-for-profit organizations, several of them faith-based, that help resettle up to 70,000 refugees from around the world in the United States each year. Others include the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, Lutheran Immigration and Refugee Service, and the Church World Service. Many other faith-based groups, including evangelical Christian organizations, also perform aid work overseas specifically aimed at refugees fleeing conflicts.
Christian groups break with GOP over Syrian refugees
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United States43539 Posts
On November 19 2015 14:49 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 14:45 KwarK wrote:
You were the one claiming that the peaceful and stable nature of 1930s and 1940s Europe combined with the absence of videos confirming the widespread prejudice against Jews made them uniquely good immigrants, not me. All I pointed out was a few facts from history like the existence of the First and Second World Wars and the fact that anti-Muslim prejudice in a world with cameras is likely to have more photos than anti-Jewish prejudice before the technology existed. You were the one using those factors to distinguish Jewish and Muslim refugees, all I did was point out that there was some historical context missing. I'd just like to point out that both photography and film existed in the 1930s and 1940s. Minor detail I know.
I am aware of that which would be why I specified cell phone videos in my earlier post. The mass propagation of popular video technology had yet to happen.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
this glorious [gold]golden[/gold] age of backwardness again.
btw as far as refugee vs catching terrorist go, a stronger and more effective policy on latter makes the former easier to push for. you have to shore up the biggest weakness of your platform with emphasis. this is why as an advocate for immigrant interests i see effective security as a democrat/liberal issue. you have to turn weakness into strength
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The good news is that we get to pick who gets to come here, thank you Atlantic ocean. The bad news is that we still haven't figured out a realistic way to prevent radicalization, specifically in 2nd gen and onwards.
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There is no problem with radicalization in the US. We are a populous country and there will be random notjobs, sure. And some of them will be Muslim. But we do a far better job integrating our immigrants than Europe does because we have a relatively strong job market, and the immigrants who come here tend to be better educated.
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On November 19 2015 23:43 heliusx wrote:
The good news is that we get to pick who gets to come here, thank you Atlantic ocean. The bad news is that we still haven't figured out a realistic way to prevent radicalization, specifically in 2nd gen and onwards.
The same way we prevent gang violence, indoctrination into cults and any other form of subversive recruitment. This isn’t new ground we are entering, nations have had this problem before. The key is to not treat it likes its magic or some new mystery. There are problems to solve, but they are just normal problems. We know what makes people susceptible to being turned into terrorist or spies, economic stagnation and perception of lack of agency to improve their life.
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You use many words to just say: we can pick "our refugees"
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On November 19 2015 23:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 23:43 heliusx wrote:
The good news is that we get to pick who gets to come here, thank you Atlantic ocean. The bad news is that we still haven't figured out a realistic way to prevent radicalization, specifically in 2nd gen and onwards. The same way we prevent gang violence, indoctrination into cults and any other form of subversive recruitment. This isn’t new ground we are entering, nations have had this problem before. The key is to not treat it likes its magic or some new mystery. There are problems to solve, but they are just normal problems. We know what makes people susceptible to being turned into terrorist or spies, economic stagnation and perception of lack of agency to improve their life.
Honestly there doesn't seem to be enough political will to improve the lives of the poorest current citizens much less those of the future. Maybe if people would actually fucking vote but that's not going to happen.
On November 20 2015 00:03 Velr wrote:
You use many words to just say: we can pick "our refugees"
And you have used few words to say nothing.
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On November 20 2015 00:09 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 23:56 Plansix wrote:On November 19 2015 23:43 heliusx wrote:
The good news is that we get to pick who gets to come here, thank you Atlantic ocean. The bad news is that we still haven't figured out a realistic way to prevent radicalization, specifically in 2nd gen and onwards. The same way we prevent gang violence, indoctrination into cults and any other form of subversive recruitment. This isn’t new ground we are entering, nations have had this problem before. The key is to not treat it likes its magic or some new mystery. There are problems to solve, but they are just normal problems. We know what makes people susceptible to being turned into terrorist or spies, economic stagnation and perception of lack of agency to improve their life. Honestly there doesn't seem to be enough political will to improve the lives of the poorest current citizens much less those of the future. Maybe if people would actually fucking vote but that's not going to happen.
To many votes you need to win to actually change something in America.
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EPT
