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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
heliusx
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States2306 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-10 03:55:46
October 10 2015 03:53 GMT
#47641
On October 10 2015 12:42 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2015 12:23 heliusx wrote:
No it was not someone else. His background check wasn't completed within 72 hours therefore he was legally sold a gun.

p.s. I don't want to take your guns. I want sick people to be prevented from purchasing guns.


I was just reading the NYT article, which didn't mention it. Regardless, that was hardly the point.

Whatever dude.

@dark he's gonna say he's specifically speaking about Obama's executive order. 😔
dude bro.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
October 10 2015 03:58 GMT
#47642
On October 10 2015 12:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2015 12:42 Introvert wrote:
On October 10 2015 12:23 heliusx wrote:
No it was not someone else. His background check wasn't completed within 72 hours therefore he was legally sold a gun.

p.s. I don't want to take your guns. I want sick people to be prevented from purchasing guns.


I was just reading the NYT article, which didn't mention it. Regardless, that was hardly the point.


I thought the point was that the gun purchasing rules/ background checks are clearly too lenient and need to be more serious, or else criminals like Roof pass through easily, undetected?

Roof is an outlier even among the outliers of mass shooters. Gun control measures short of total bans+ confiscation would not prevent the overwhelming majority.
Freeeeeeedom
heliusx
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States2306 Posts
October 10 2015 04:04 GMT
#47643
Proper background checks being an inconvenience to every single American making a gun purchase would be worth it to preventing what happened in that church.
dude bro.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States46692 Posts
October 10 2015 04:09 GMT
#47644
On October 10 2015 12:58 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2015 12:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On October 10 2015 12:42 Introvert wrote:
On October 10 2015 12:23 heliusx wrote:
No it was not someone else. His background check wasn't completed within 72 hours therefore he was legally sold a gun.

p.s. I don't want to take your guns. I want sick people to be prevented from purchasing guns.


I was just reading the NYT article, which didn't mention it. Regardless, that was hardly the point.


I thought the point was that the gun purchasing rules/ background checks are clearly too lenient and need to be more serious, or else criminals like Roof pass through easily, undetected?

Roof is an outlier even among the outliers of mass shooters. Gun control measures short of total bans+ confiscation would not prevent the overwhelming majority.


He asked if any of the recent mass murders would have been prevented.
I said yes, and pointed out how one of the recent mass murders would have been prevented.
If you jump in with "yeah but he's an outlier", then that's just throwing in a No True Scotsman fallacy, dismissing any appropriate rebuttal to his claim >.<
Maybe the majority wouldn't be prevented, but that wasn't the statement being made and I'd much rather still have a few being prevented than none at all. Why would you rather choose to have 100 mass murders instead of 80 or 90 (or whatever the lower number ends up being)?
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States46692 Posts
October 10 2015 04:11 GMT
#47645
On October 10 2015 13:04 heliusx wrote:
Proper background checks being an inconvenience to every single American making a gun purchase would be worth it to preventing what happened in that church.


Absolutely, and it's not like the inconvenience is anything significant. And if a person thinks it is, then boo hoo we'd much rather make sure they're not a killer first, so they should be told to relax for a day or so before they can go turn into Yosemite Sam.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
October 10 2015 04:20 GMT
#47646
On October 10 2015 13:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2015 12:58 cLutZ wrote:
On October 10 2015 12:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On October 10 2015 12:42 Introvert wrote:
On October 10 2015 12:23 heliusx wrote:
No it was not someone else. His background check wasn't completed within 72 hours therefore he was legally sold a gun.

p.s. I don't want to take your guns. I want sick people to be prevented from purchasing guns.


I was just reading the NYT article, which didn't mention it. Regardless, that was hardly the point.


I thought the point was that the gun purchasing rules/ background checks are clearly too lenient and need to be more serious, or else criminals like Roof pass through easily, undetected?

Roof is an outlier even among the outliers of mass shooters. Gun control measures short of total bans+ confiscation would not prevent the overwhelming majority.


He asked if any of the recent mass murders would have been prevented.
I said yes, and pointed out how one of the recent mass murders would have been prevented.
If you jump in with "yeah but he's an outlier", then that's just throwing in a No True Scotsman fallacy, dismissing any appropriate rebuttal to his claim >.<
Maybe the majority wouldn't be prevented, but that wasn't the statement being made and I'd much rather still have a few being prevented than none at all. Why would you rather choose to have 100 mass murders instead of 80 or 90 (or whatever the lower number ends up being)?


Because, first of all, I disagree with the post above you both that it is a minor inconvenience, and even accepting that opinion, that it would be worth it. Second, its not a true Scotsman fallacy because I am merely making a statistical argument that the proposed " reasonable " regulations are largely ineffective. Lastly, I am pointing out the real goal of gun control advocates ( unless they are simply misinformed) which is a ban on gun ownership even for people with no criminal records ( or some sort of superhuman minority report system for gun licensing).
Freeeeeeedom
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5083 Posts
October 10 2015 04:37 GMT
#47647
From the article I posted I don't see how Obama's action would have prevented anything. From what I saw every single shooter got their guns through legal means. Obama expanded background checks to more situations doesn't change that.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-10 05:07:40
October 10 2015 04:56 GMT
#47648
On October 10 2015 13:20 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2015 13:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On October 10 2015 12:58 cLutZ wrote:
On October 10 2015 12:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On October 10 2015 12:42 Introvert wrote:
On October 10 2015 12:23 heliusx wrote:
No it was not someone else. His background check wasn't completed within 72 hours therefore he was legally sold a gun.

p.s. I don't want to take your guns. I want sick people to be prevented from purchasing guns.


I was just reading the NYT article, which didn't mention it. Regardless, that was hardly the point.


I thought the point was that the gun purchasing rules/ background checks are clearly too lenient and need to be more serious, or else criminals like Roof pass through easily, undetected?

Roof is an outlier even among the outliers of mass shooters. Gun control measures short of total bans+ confiscation would not prevent the overwhelming majority.


He asked if any of the recent mass murders would have been prevented.
I said yes, and pointed out how one of the recent mass murders would have been prevented.
If you jump in with "yeah but he's an outlier", then that's just throwing in a No True Scotsman fallacy, dismissing any appropriate rebuttal to his claim >.<
Maybe the majority wouldn't be prevented, but that wasn't the statement being made and I'd much rather still have a few being prevented than none at all. Why would you rather choose to have 100 mass murders instead of 80 or 90 (or whatever the lower number ends up being)?


Because, first of all, I disagree with the post above you both that it is a minor inconvenience, and even accepting that opinion, that it would be worth it. Second, its not a true Scotsman fallacy because I am merely making a statistical argument that the proposed " reasonable " regulations are largely ineffective. Lastly, I am pointing out the real goal of gun control advocates ( unless they are simply misinformed) which is a ban on gun ownership even for people with no criminal records ( or some sort of superhuman minority report system for gun licensing).


Don't think this is the place largely but I'll make the same point.

We'd stop more gun violence with appropriate mental healthcare (suicide) and poverty measures (street violence) than with any gun-legislation proposed.

In addition to those, increased accountability for inappropriately stored firearms (lost, stolen, hands of children) would mean it would be harder for criminals/children to get guns.

The key point is that doing NOTHING is no longer acceptable. If 2nd amendment folks don't want what's being suggested, they need to come up with something better than more guns. As that does nothing for all the suicides, or suicides by cop that too often take many people with them.

Not to mention more guns mean more people who pick and lose a fight then shoot their opponent or more fights that turn into shootouts.

Or you end up with things like the Waco Shootout with the bikers (9 dead, 177 arrested). Last I checked there haven't even been any formal charges filed and they aren't even sure who killed who.

Whatever we do doesn't have to stop every instance, we just need to do something that works to reduce them some without infringing on folks rights and go from there.

Why the same people who don't trust teachers with things like sex ed but are more than happy to give them a gun to keep in the same class as their kid, blows my mind. I don't think I had more than a handful of teachers my whole life who I would even trust on a range with a gun let alone in a classroom with kids.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany12080 Posts
October 10 2015 08:31 GMT
#47649
On October 10 2015 08:37 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
I'm pretty sure an armed population with guns did stop Hitler. Admittedly they were Russians but still, the main thing is that an armed population works.


.. eh?

What? You must've learned something entirely different in school than i did then. Because in reality, it wasn't an armed population stopping Hitler in russia, but their winter.

Just as a sidenote though.


People greatly underestimate the soviet army in WW2. There is this view of badly armed people, with machine guns behind them holding them in place and lead mostly by ridiculous ideological orders and incompetent generals due to Stalins purges.

While that might have been the case in 40, it very much wasn't later in the war. In 45, the soviet army was the most formidable land force in the world, with large amounts of the best tanks in the world, advanced tactics and logistics and experienced soldiers.

There is nothing quite like a world war to force you to learn really quickly how to be an efficient army.

The russian winter obviously helped defeat Hitler, but you should really give the soviet army some credit here.

Also, an army is not an armed population. It was the soviet army, with their state and population backing them up, that stopped Hitler, not a bunch of random guys who grabbed the guns of their wall and went to shoot the invaders. Those kind of people tend to get slaughtered by an actual military force, both in the 40s and nowadays. If you want to fight an army as civilians, take a look at how the iraqis do it (Though they do have the advantage that the US is too civilized to use the actually effective counterinsurgency tactics, as they are usually also war crimes.)
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-10 09:06:35
October 10 2015 08:49 GMT
#47650
Or we could say that the Russians were armed with the cold. Not just guns.


Or we could say, the russian winter defeated the german army. Because that's simply what happened.

it was also hitler being an idiot and constantly attacking stalingrad for no reason


Well, i think it's out of the question whether or not Hitler was a retard, that's pretty clear. But even then, it wasn't just stalingrad. Put it this way, on stretches of the campaign, more soldiers died to the winter (malnutrition, or simply froze to death) than to actual combat. German weaponry wasn't designed to work in those temperatures either (supply lines already being thin, german soldiers left tanks etc running because otherwise the liquids would just freeze - weapons like the MG42 simply refusing to work, whereas russian weaponry worked just fine thanks to being alot less sophisticated).

If someone is actually interested in what happened back then, i'd suggest reading "War on the eastern front" by James Lucas - it's an interesting read and answers alot of questions.

Again, just as a sidenote to counteract the argument "well the russians showed that an armed population works", which is simply wrong. It didn't work.


While that might have been the case in 40, it very much wasn't later in the war. In 45, the soviet army was the most formidable land force in the world, with large amounts of the best tanks in the world, advanced tactics and logistics and experienced soldiers.


What tanks would that be, as someone who's thoroughly interested in WW2 machinery?

edit: maybe via PM though, bit far off topic.
On track to MA1950A.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
October 10 2015 16:29 GMT
#47651
Indeed, a sad reality is settling into Washington these days: the propensity of the Republican establishment, when given a chance, to make the worst possible decisions. What other explanation is there for their current travails in the selection of a Speaker of the House? Or their bewilderment over the same?

After their consensus choice for speaker handed Hillary Clinton the priceless gift of seeming to confirm that the Benghazi investigation is a politically motivated witch hunt against her—PR damage that will never be repaired—a vast majority of the conference still insisted that this was the guy they needed on television during a critical election season. For no apparent reason other than he simply was next in line for the job. To a party demanding revolutionary change, they offered essentially “more of the same,” except a little bit worse. Not exactly a rallying cry.

In a twisted way, House Majority Leader (for now) Kevin McCarthy should be a joyful man today. He’s not going to have to play the part of Dan Quayle for the next two years in Washington, D.C. Nor is he going to have to take on the thankless task of being called a phony, liar, and sellout by his colleagues, the D.C. punditry and a fed-up grassroots.

For months on end the GOP establishment has continued to ignore all the signs of its impending doom. It’s been living in a delusion—thinking that they were in charge even as all the evidence made clear that their grasp of reality was not much better than Randy Quaid’s. Sure, their supporters are mad at them. But they’ve been mad before, like when they bailed out Wall Street in 2008, while the rest of the economy tanked. It will all blow over.

But it won’t. And largely this is a problem of the establishment’s own making. Time and again, the GOP and its consultant class has overpromised to win votes and then underperformed once the votes were won. In 2014, every elected official running on the GOP ticket vowed to do all in their power to repeal Obamacare—and yet Obamacare seems here to stay. They vowed to fight a raise of the debt ceiling without spending reforms—and the debt ceiling was raised anyway. They railed against gay marriage, an issue about which they secretly care little, even when they knew the Supreme Court would rule against them—making them look bigoted, hypocritical and ineffective to boot. Leaders savaged President Obama for an Iran deal that they’ve told voters will lead to World War III—and yet brushed aside real efforts to challenge the administration on it. The Republican majority has decried Planned Parenthood, and yet rejected efforts to block federal funding for the organization. On key occasions, the Republican leadership in the House has forged majorities with Democrats against the wishes of their own conference.


Source
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Eskendereya
Profile Joined August 2015
United States97 Posts
October 10 2015 19:04 GMT
#47652
Holy crap. Trump is Georgia earlier today.

Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
October 10 2015 21:13 GMT
#47653
On October 10 2015 08:28 Gorsameth wrote:
Its not like its hard to kill someone painlessly.

anesthetic + heart stopping drug is the easiest thing in the world but there seems to be some problem with finding people to actually administer it.
Which is in itself weird. They can find people to insert weird (sometimes unreliable) cocktails but they cant find someone to apply the anesthetic? Its not like you can give them to much in this case.


My engineer brother is in favor of the "brick of C4 strapped to the back of the head" solution.
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-10 21:27:29
October 10 2015 21:26 GMT
#47654
On October 10 2015 17:49 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
Or we could say that the Russians were armed with the cold. Not just guns.


Or we could say, the russian winter defeated the german army. Because that's simply what happened.

Show nested quote +
it was also hitler being an idiot and constantly attacking stalingrad for no reason


Well, i think it's out of the question whether or not Hitler was a retard, that's pretty clear. But even then, it wasn't just stalingrad. Put it this way, on stretches of the campaign, more soldiers died to the winter (malnutrition, or simply froze to death) than to actual combat. German weaponry wasn't designed to work in those temperatures either (supply lines already being thin, german soldiers left tanks etc running because otherwise the liquids would just freeze - weapons like the MG42 simply refusing to work, whereas russian weaponry worked just fine thanks to being alot less sophisticated).

If someone is actually interested in what happened back then, i'd suggest reading "War on the eastern front" by James Lucas - it's an interesting read and answers alot of questions.

Again, just as a sidenote to counteract the argument "well the russians showed that an armed population works", which is simply wrong. It didn't work.

Show nested quote +

While that might have been the case in 40, it very much wasn't later in the war. In 45, the soviet army was the most formidable land force in the world, with large amounts of the best tanks in the world, advanced tactics and logistics and experienced soldiers.


What tanks would that be, as someone who's thoroughly interested in WW2 machinery?

edit: maybe via PM though, bit far off topic.



pretty sure he means whatever the final design of the t-34 was. don't remember exactly though. the entire invasion was basically a disaster. and constant attempts to take stalingrad didn't exactly help. Ivan's war is also a good book/ but yeah we're getting a bit off topic.

more on topic, thoughts on paul ryan for speaker?
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
October 10 2015 21:48 GMT
#47655
On October 11 2015 06:26 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2015 17:49 m4ini wrote:
Or we could say that the Russians were armed with the cold. Not just guns.


Or we could say, the russian winter defeated the german army. Because that's simply what happened.

it was also hitler being an idiot and constantly attacking stalingrad for no reason


Well, i think it's out of the question whether or not Hitler was a retard, that's pretty clear. But even then, it wasn't just stalingrad. Put it this way, on stretches of the campaign, more soldiers died to the winter (malnutrition, or simply froze to death) than to actual combat. German weaponry wasn't designed to work in those temperatures either (supply lines already being thin, german soldiers left tanks etc running because otherwise the liquids would just freeze - weapons like the MG42 simply refusing to work, whereas russian weaponry worked just fine thanks to being alot less sophisticated).

If someone is actually interested in what happened back then, i'd suggest reading "War on the eastern front" by James Lucas - it's an interesting read and answers alot of questions.

Again, just as a sidenote to counteract the argument "well the russians showed that an armed population works", which is simply wrong. It didn't work.


While that might have been the case in 40, it very much wasn't later in the war. In 45, the soviet army was the most formidable land force in the world, with large amounts of the best tanks in the world, advanced tactics and logistics and experienced soldiers.


What tanks would that be, as someone who's thoroughly interested in WW2 machinery?

edit: maybe via PM though, bit far off topic.



pretty sure he means whatever the final design of the t-34 was. don't remember exactly though. the entire invasion was basically a disaster. and constant attempts to take stalingrad didn't exactly help. Ivan's war is also a good book/ but yeah we're getting a bit off topic.

more on topic, thoughts on paul ryan for speaker?

In politics, in always happy to have someone who really doesn't seem to want the position to have that position.
Freeeeeeedom
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22703 Posts
October 10 2015 21:52 GMT
#47656
On October 11 2015 06:26 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2015 17:49 m4ini wrote:
Or we could say that the Russians were armed with the cold. Not just guns.


Or we could say, the russian winter defeated the german army. Because that's simply what happened.

it was also hitler being an idiot and constantly attacking stalingrad for no reason


Well, i think it's out of the question whether or not Hitler was a retard, that's pretty clear. But even then, it wasn't just stalingrad. Put it this way, on stretches of the campaign, more soldiers died to the winter (malnutrition, or simply froze to death) than to actual combat. German weaponry wasn't designed to work in those temperatures either (supply lines already being thin, german soldiers left tanks etc running because otherwise the liquids would just freeze - weapons like the MG42 simply refusing to work, whereas russian weaponry worked just fine thanks to being alot less sophisticated).

If someone is actually interested in what happened back then, i'd suggest reading "War on the eastern front" by James Lucas - it's an interesting read and answers alot of questions.

Again, just as a sidenote to counteract the argument "well the russians showed that an armed population works", which is simply wrong. It didn't work.


While that might have been the case in 40, it very much wasn't later in the war. In 45, the soviet army was the most formidable land force in the world, with large amounts of the best tanks in the world, advanced tactics and logistics and experienced soldiers.


What tanks would that be, as someone who's thoroughly interested in WW2 machinery?

edit: maybe via PM though, bit far off topic.



more on topic, thoughts on paul ryan for speaker?

Political death sentence. No one with any future aspirations will take the job.
Anyone who does not share the tea party beliefs will have the same internal strife.
Anyone who shares the tea party beliefs will have internal strife with the more moderate members of the party

pick your poison. My bet is on some random tea party smuck no one cares about to throw into the fire.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
LimpingGoat
Profile Joined January 2015
898 Posts
October 10 2015 22:36 GMT
#47657
Looks like Rubio is who the establishment is switching to.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-10 22:45:42
October 10 2015 22:44 GMT
#47658
Paul Ryan is a manipulative schlub with zero accomplishments besides a nonsense budget and no leadership skills who fucked up repeatedly on the campaign trail in 2012 and was overall useless. Oh, and he loves Ayn Rand despite her despising most of what he stands for. So he'd be a perfect Speaker of the House.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-10 22:52:42
October 10 2015 22:52 GMT
#47659
On October 11 2015 07:44 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Paul Ryan is a manipulative schlub with zero accomplishments besides a nonsense budget and no leadership skills who fucked up repeatedly on the campaign trail in 2012 and was overall useless. Oh, and he loves Ayn Rand despite her despising everything he stands for. So he'd be a perfect Speaker of the House.



Even he doesn't want to touch it with a ten foot pole. Gorsameth is probably right that it will be a Tea Partier who everyone will pin the entire downfall of the party on.

Since 08 people have been saying there is no leader of the Republican party, that they are begging Ryan to be speaker (to little avail) is evidence of just how dysfunctional the Republican party is.

One thing is, if they can't get their own party sorted out soon, they may lose dozens of seats in the house. This very well may be indicative of a potential catastrophic loss in 2016. This may also be Reagan in reverse.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
October 11 2015 02:29 GMT
#47660
FYI still recovering from having the shit slapped out of me in noho.

http://stop-hate-crimes.com/2015/08/06/free-slaps-for-white-men-giveaway-held-in-northampton-ma/

p.s.

Tuck Frump
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