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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1575

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-14 02:22:50
January 14 2015 02:22 GMT
#31481
On January 14 2015 10:50 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2015 10:21 IgnE wrote:
On January 14 2015 08:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On January 14 2015 07:53 aksfjh wrote:
On January 14 2015 07:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
The decline in oil prices is already having an impact on US oil drilling. US rig count:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Will be bad for the economies of oil producing areas, like Oklahoma, and there are some oil related debt fears out there as well. However,economists overwhelmingly agree that the price decline is good for the US.

Unrelated story - apparently the US leads the OECD in percent of managers who are women (link).

"Word on the street" is that producers are basically going to stop exploratory wells up front. After that, they'll begin winding down the low producers and wells where they own the rights. Biggest hits will be in the Dakotas and West Texas. Dakotas will hurt their economy, really, really bad. Luckily, that's really all that is out there besides agg. Texas is more diversified than in the 80s, such that it shouldn't leave a huge drag on the economy, but the numbers will take a hit (might go negative on employment for a bit), as will the state budget.

Agreed. There was a hell of a boom in many of those parts though, so hopefully people and governments were prudent and set some money aside.


My guess is that the oil prices have masked the underlying economic situation both here and throughout the rest of the world, leading to these good news stories about the economy in recent months. When oil prices inevitably rise again (when the Saudis and the sheikhs in the UAE decide they have crushed their new competition) reality is going to hit. I know you were listening to that NPR piece earlier today jonny, because I've been thinking this for awhile, and NPR reminded me of it today.
What are they waiting for re:crushing of things? Capital investments are a pretty long term thing so even if at some point they cut the taps off the money sunk in by American producers has already been deployed.


There is a lot of room between what the Saudi's need to be profitable and what shale and tar sands operations need (~$20-$40 iirc). Once enough of the big operations have their money disappear, the Saudi's will probably pump the prices back up

Looking at the 1 years for companies like this it's probably not that long before prices go up to around $60-70 a barrel but it will be a loooong while before we see $80-100 a barrel.

Seems like if the Saudi's were smart, they would realize in the modern ultra speculative market they can make as much or more money on the futures and manipulating the market than they can from the oil itself.

Buy a bunch of futures on oil going up to $70 a barrel, then manufacture a crisis, then rake in the money. Then buy the shorts flood the market and repeat ad nauseam.

All the while still keeping oil prices below the point that would make all that investment in the middle of the country useful, and destroying all that wasted wealth.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]


Billionaire investor Leon Cooperman owns 9% of SandRidge Energy Inc's (NYSE: SD ) outstanding shares. That's a rather outsized position for Cooperman's hedge fund, Omega Advisors, as it had been a 12% position within that fund. Needless to say, Cooperman made a big bet on SandRidge Energy. However, it's not a bet he's willing to double down on now that the stock is 75% off of its 52-week high. Though, he's not giving up on the stock either.

There's a lot of value, but...
Earlier this year Cooperman did up the ante on his SandRidge Energy bet by raising his stake to its current position. He'd already gone on record saying that he thought the stock could double from its then $5 price to upwards of $10 per share, if everything went right. Meanwhile, CEO James Bennett thought the stock was worth upwards of $15.50 when it was selling for $6.25 per share. However, those calls were made when oil prices were well over $100 per barrel and there was a general consensus that prices would stay at, or above, that level. However, with the price of oil falling like a rock, it has acted like a weight and taken SandRidge Energy's stock down along with it.

If the price of oil stays this low for a long period of time, this could be a big issue for SandRidge Energy. That's because at the company's current well cost it won't make much, if any money, in the future if current oil prices persist. As we see on the slide below, the company was banking on a $90 oil price in 2015 in order to earn a decent return on drilling new wells.

As the return sensitivities chart shows, the lower oil prices go the weaker the company's returns on new wells. It's important to note that the chart doesn't even project returns when oil prices are less than $80 a barrel. So, we're left to guess at the company's breakeven point.

Why this is a problem
The problem here is that if oil prices stay low for a long period of time then SandRidge Energy would be in trouble. This was noted by Leon Cooperman in a recent CNBC interview where he discussed his position in SandRidge and why he's not buying more of its stock at the current distressed price.


Source
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
January 14 2015 02:34 GMT
#31482
It's entirely possible that shale oil can compete I suppose. It might be an advantage that they can just plop new wells down whenever they want.

Falling oil prices have killed private alternative energy firms since the 70s. That's one of the reasons we are so dependent on oil now. You say it's just a "sunk cost" but it costs money to extract, and oftentimes that cost is bound up in energy costs. Tar sands for example has a very low EROI (energy return on investment) compared to other forms of oil, and so it will be very hard to make tar sand oil work even if you have already sunk millions and millions of capital investment into the project.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
January 14 2015 02:42 GMT
#31483
On January 14 2015 11:07 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2015 10:50 Sub40APM wrote:
On January 14 2015 10:21 IgnE wrote:
On January 14 2015 08:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On January 14 2015 07:53 aksfjh wrote:
On January 14 2015 07:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
The decline in oil prices is already having an impact on US oil drilling. US rig count:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Will be bad for the economies of oil producing areas, like Oklahoma, and there are some oil related debt fears out there as well. However,economists overwhelmingly agree that the price decline is good for the US.

Unrelated story - apparently the US leads the OECD in percent of managers who are women (link).

"Word on the street" is that producers are basically going to stop exploratory wells up front. After that, they'll begin winding down the low producers and wells where they own the rights. Biggest hits will be in the Dakotas and West Texas. Dakotas will hurt their economy, really, really bad. Luckily, that's really all that is out there besides agg. Texas is more diversified than in the 80s, such that it shouldn't leave a huge drag on the economy, but the numbers will take a hit (might go negative on employment for a bit), as will the state budget.

Agreed. There was a hell of a boom in many of those parts though, so hopefully people and governments were prudent and set some money aside.


My guess is that the oil prices have masked the underlying economic situation both here and throughout the rest of the world, leading to these good news stories about the economy in recent months. When oil prices inevitably rise again (when the Saudis and the sheikhs in the UAE decide they have crushed their new competition) reality is going to hit. I know you were listening to that NPR piece earlier today jonny, because I've been thinking this for awhile, and NPR reminded me of it today.
What are they waiting for re:crushing of things? Capital investments are a pretty long term thing so even if at some point they cut the taps off the money sunk in by American producers has already been deployed.


Shale oil and gas requires thousands of small wells, and there has basically been constant new drilling to meet demand, since production from the wells starts to decline rather quickly. It also kills a lot of alternative energy investments that aren't directly about oil, and hurts Venezuealan, Russian, and Nigerian oil production, among others.

Yeah Saudis are a very low cost producer which is why they aren't cutting production. They figure it is in their best interest for someone else (that is, the high cost producers) to cut. It's still bad for the Kingdom of course, since high prices are better than low.

Sub40APM has a fair point though. The physical production is already in place, so as long as the fields are cash-flow positive (profits can be negative) they'll keep producing. So it could be quite a while for supply to fall back in line with demand, as we've seen with nat gas.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
January 14 2015 03:23 GMT
#31484
On January 14 2015 11:34 IgnE wrote:
Tar sands for example has a very low EROI (energy return on investment) compared to other forms of oil, and so it will be very hard to make tar sand oil work even if you have already sunk millions and millions of capital investment into the project.

I just read an article that says the opposite, that the big cost on tar sands was the initial capital but once you start digging that crap out and burning it into oil or whatever the cost is actually relatively bearable?

Anyway good point GreenHorizon, surprised the Saudis dont just rake in billions on front running the oil futures.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-14 04:00:00
January 14 2015 03:47 GMT
#31485
On January 14 2015 12:23 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2015 11:34 IgnE wrote:
Tar sands for example has a very low EROI (energy return on investment) compared to other forms of oil, and so it will be very hard to make tar sand oil work even if you have already sunk millions and millions of capital investment into the project.

I just read an article that says the opposite, that the big cost on tar sands was the initial capital but once you start digging that crap out and burning it into oil or whatever the cost is actually relatively bearable?

Anyway good point GreenHorizon, surprised the Saudis dont just rake in billions on front running the oil futures.



Well we wouldn't really "know" if they were. Or if they did before this drop. If they knew the bottom was going to fall out (or just realized how their reaction could change things once it started) they could of made far more money than they could possibly make off just selling the oil. (and using it to negate the blow from lower prices)

They don't seem phased at least rhetorically.

"As a policy for OPEC, and I convinced OPEC of this, even Mr al-Badri (the OPEC secretary general) is now convinced, it is not in the interest of OPEC producers to cut their production, whatever the price is," Naimi was quoted by MEES as saying.

"Whether it goes down to $20, $40, $50, $60, it is irrelevant," he said.


Source

Of course that could be them prepping the market for an even bigger rake on futures and oil if they suddenly cut production without notice. Now would be a really good time to be friends with a Saudi prince.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-14 04:13:01
January 14 2015 04:12 GMT
#31486
US: Oh your going to cut that production that's cute, have fun tacking Daesh, and Al Nusra without military funding etc.
OPEC: .....

Not to mention the western world and it's infrastructure of renewable energy grows by the thousands everyday, electric car makers, and of course domestic oil production in which the US can simply state domestic customers and concerns come first.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
January 14 2015 04:20 GMT
#31487
On January 14 2015 12:23 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2015 11:34 IgnE wrote:
Tar sands for example has a very low EROI (energy return on investment) compared to other forms of oil, and so it will be very hard to make tar sand oil work even if you have already sunk millions and millions of capital investment into the project.

I just read an article that says the opposite, that the big cost on tar sands was the initial capital but once you start digging that crap out and burning it into oil or whatever the cost is actually relatively bearable?

Anyway good point GreenHorizon, surprised the Saudis dont just rake in billions on front running the oil futures.


Please link. I believe that is technically incorrect but maybe I'm wrong. Tar sands are an extremely bad EROI, and I don't think capital investment is the primary problem.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
January 14 2015 04:45 GMT
#31488
On January 14 2015 13:12 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
US: Oh your going to cut that production that's cute, have fun tacking Daesh, and Al Nusra without military funding etc.
OPEC: .....

Not to mention the western world and it's infrastructure of renewable energy grows by the thousands everyday, electric car makers, and of course domestic oil production in which the US can simply state domestic customers and concerns come first.


Good luck cutting any funding to fight any terrorists with a republican house and senate. Unless maybe we end up with President Paul.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
January 14 2015 04:59 GMT
#31489
http://www.ceri.ca/images/stories/Study_145_-_Refining_Bitumen_-_Costs_Benefits_and_Analysis_-_Final_-_January_2015.pdf

This report seems to indicate that variable costs are high at tarsands. It might just be that variable costs are always low enough that if you've already got sunk capital costs it's almost always worth it to refine the oil, even if you are burning tons of fossil fuels to extract slightly more oil from the bitumen, and barely cover the variable costs. If you can find a breakdown of variable costs per barrel on tarsands vs shale I'd be interested.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
January 14 2015 05:06 GMT
#31490
On January 14 2015 13:20 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2015 12:23 Sub40APM wrote:
On January 14 2015 11:34 IgnE wrote:
Tar sands for example has a very low EROI (energy return on investment) compared to other forms of oil, and so it will be very hard to make tar sand oil work even if you have already sunk millions and millions of capital investment into the project.

I just read an article that says the opposite, that the big cost on tar sands was the initial capital but once you start digging that crap out and burning it into oil or whatever the cost is actually relatively bearable?

Anyway good point GreenHorizon, surprised the Saudis dont just rake in billions on front running the oil futures.


Please link. I believe that is technically incorrect but maybe I'm wrong. Tar sands are an extremely bad EROI, and I don't think capital investment is the primary problem.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/as-oil-slips-below-50-canada-digs-in-for-long-haul-1421114641

Yea its WSJ so who the fuck knows for real:

Unlike shale oil, which requires constant drilling of new wells to maintain output levels, once an oil-sands site is developed it will produce tens or hundreds of thousands of barrels a day, steadily, for up to three decades.

On Monday, major producer Canadian Natural Resources Ltd. became the latest to underscore the resilience of oil-sands growth. The company said lower oil prices will force it to trim investment on new projects and curtail its growth forecast—but it still expects overall output to grow about 7% over 2014 levels, and it vowed to keep spending on expanding output at its biggest oil-sands mine over the next two years.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
January 14 2015 05:10 GMT
#31491
Seems like a conflation of drilling costs with variable costs. Yes, it costs more to constantly drill new wells in shale, and yes you can process a lot more tar sand once you invest a ton of capital into a massive refining project, but that doesn't really speak to a per barrel variable cost on tar sands vs shale oil per well.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
January 14 2015 05:13 GMT
#31492
Yep, the issue is so polarized that the first 3 pages of google search all seem to be grinding a pretty obvious ax one way or the other. I guess we'll see in the near future by the rate of bankruptcies, since so much junk bond issuance was done by shale guys.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 14 2015 05:37 GMT
#31493
Patrick Lynch, head of the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, on Monday walked out of a heated PBA meeting after some cops questioned his hardline stance against Mayor de Blasio.

Shouting and shoving erupted among cops at a tense Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association meeting in Queens on Tuesday, according to union sources.

Tempers flared toward the end of the nearly two-hour session at Antun's in Queens Village when some members began yelling at PBA President Patrick Lynch over his declaration that Mayor de Blasio owes cops an apology.

"This is what my members want: they want more cars, better vests, more manpower,” one cop shouted, according to the sources. “They don't want an apology.”

Another union member told Lynch: "I don't care about an apology. I want to know what you're going to do to protect us."

Lynch said he disagreed about the importance of an apology, according to the sources.

The meeting then disintegrated into a physical conflict between cops who support Lynch and those who don’t, the sources said.

"They were screaming,” one source said. “Lynch's guys got up and there was shoving and pushing. It got ugly."

The source said delegates had been getting questions from their cops.

“They want to know if there's a plan,” the source said, referring to whether cops should make more arrests.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
RCMDVA
Profile Joined July 2011
United States708 Posts
January 14 2015 06:32 GMT
#31494
The most un-killable cockroach of a local politician here in Richmond just won a special election after :

He gets arrested for a felony (sex with minor).
He says it never happened. She says it never happened. Her momma says it never happened.
He says he thought she was 22. She was 17.
He pleads guilty to contributing to the delinquency of a minor.
He fucks up and gets his probation/work release revoked. He's in jail serving out the time.
He resigns from office and a special election is called.
Then it is announce that the 17yr old is in fact pregnant. Daddy is 57.
Dems call a firehouse primary locking the incumbent out of the race, nominating some retired AFL/CIO guy I think. Incumbent then runs as an independent. Some republican also runs.
On the eve of the election, police raided his offices for new shit.

Del. Joseph D. Morrissey on Tuesday won a special election to keep his seat in the 74th House of Delegates district, making him the first jailed lawmaker in modern Virginia history to win reelection.


http://www.richmond.com/news/local/central-virginia/charles-city/article_a9102796-ca6f-5eb0-b3eb-967881e4ca50.html
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
January 14 2015 08:21 GMT
#31495
This is Clay Davis level stuff.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
January 14 2015 16:49 GMT
#31496
i don't think saudi's were keen with messing with the oil futures because if they do that the confidence in the legitness of that market is shot.
to say nothing about their motivation, the presence of ISIS oil is certainly a convenient excuse for them to make this move. could target u.s. etc competitors with some geopolitical reason that the u.s. would buy
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
January 14 2015 17:20 GMT
#31497
On January 14 2015 15:32 RCMDVA wrote:
The most un-killable cockroach of a local politician here in Richmond just won a special election after :

He gets arrested for a felony (sex with minor).
He says it never happened. She says it never happened. Her momma says it never happened.
He says he thought she was 22. She was 17.
He pleads guilty to contributing to the delinquency of a minor.
He fucks up and gets his probation/work release revoked. He's in jail serving out the time.
He resigns from office and a special election is called.
Then it is announce that the 17yr old is in fact pregnant. Daddy is 57.
Dems call a firehouse primary locking the incumbent out of the race, nominating some retired AFL/CIO guy I think. Incumbent then runs as an independent. Some republican also runs.
On the eve of the election, police raided his offices for new shit.

Show nested quote +
Del. Joseph D. Morrissey on Tuesday won a special election to keep his seat in the 74th House of Delegates district, making him the first jailed lawmaker in modern Virginia history to win reelection.


http://www.richmond.com/news/local/central-virginia/charles-city/article_a9102796-ca6f-5eb0-b3eb-967881e4ca50.html

lol, you shouldn't be allowed to run if you're in jail. This is pretty comical.
Who called in the fleet?
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
January 14 2015 17:30 GMT
#31498
some people can't even vote while in jail and this dude is winning public office
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 14 2015 18:21 GMT
#31499
WASHINGTON -- The White House announced on Wednesday that it is setting new goals for reducing methane emissions in the oil and gas sector, aiming to cut those releases by 40 to 45 percent from 2012 levels by 2025.

While methane emissions have dropped in recent decades, Dan Utech, the special assistant to the president for energy and climate change, said in a call with reporters Wednesday morning that the expansion of oil and gas development in the U.S. has put those emissions on track to rise 25 percent by 2025 without new controls. The administration says the methane rules are key to meeting the overall emission reduction targets that President Barack Obama has called for.

"The U.S. is now the largest oil and gas producer in the world, providing an abundant source of energy to power and heat American homes and businesses," said Utech. "At the same time, methane, the primary component of natural gas, is a potent greenhouse gas with 25 times the heat-trapping potential of carbon dioxide."

Specific regulations related to the effort are expected later this year, but the White House did lay out a plan for meeting the goal. The Environmental Protection Agency is now beginning a rulemaking process to establish new standards for methane and volatile organic compound emissions from new and modified oil and gas wells, as well as natural gas processing and transmission infrastructure. The EPA said it plans to introduce a draft rule in the summer of 2015 and a final rule in 2016.

The White House also said that the Department of Interior's Bureau of Land Management will issue updated standards for venting, flaring and leaks for oil and gas wells on public lands sometime in the spring of 2015. And the Department of Transportation’s Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration will issue new safety rules for pipelines sometime this year, Utech said.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 14 2015 20:00 GMT
#31500
The Senate will be back in Democratic hands next year:

WASHINGTON -- House Republicans voted Wednesday to fund the Department of Homeland Security, but with the requirement that millions of undocumented young people, parents and others be put back at risk of deportation.

The DHS funding bill was the opening shot in what is likely to be a contentious weekslong fight over how to deal with appropriations for the agency before its funding runs out at the end of February. For now, Republicans and Democrats have drawn lines in the sand: Most GOP House members said they would not vote to fund DHS without measures to end many of President Barack Obama's immigration policies, while Democrats and the president have vowed to oppose anything that includes those amendments.

But the vote also showed a schism in the House Republicans -- this time from moderates rather than the usual revolts by immigration hardliners. Those moderates nearly derailed an amendment to end the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals policy, or DACA, which helps undocumented immigrants who came to the U.S. as children. Twenty-six House Republicans joined with Democrats to oppose that amendment, which narrowly passed in a 218-209 vote.

The vote on the full bill was 236-191. Ten Republicans opposed final passage, and two Democrats split with their party to support it.

"We do not take this action lightly, but simply, there is no alternative," House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) said in a floor speech just before the vote. "It's not a dispute between the parties or even the branches of our government. This executive overreach is an affront to the rule of law and to the Constitution itself."

But what comes next is unclear. In the Senate, members such as Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.) and Ted Cruz (R-Texas) have said a DHS bill must include measures to block Obama's executive actions on immigration. But other GOP senators have expressed wariness over adding contentious measures to a must-pass bill and threatening a DHS.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
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