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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 156

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-09 04:41:53
March 09 2013 04:41 GMT
#3101
On March 09 2013 12:52 oneofthem wrote:
i honestly am very interested in how obama will explain his stance on the drone thing after this presidency is over.

Well, Clinton reversed his position on NAFTA after his presidency. Obama could do something similar.
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
March 09 2013 08:53 GMT
#3102
Wow, Cantor and Boehner attack Obama and WoW.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/08/gops_war_on_video_games/
ziggurat
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada847 Posts
March 09 2013 17:15 GMT
#3103
On March 09 2013 13:41 Roe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2013 12:52 oneofthem wrote:
i honestly am very interested in how obama will explain his stance on the drone thing after this presidency is over.

Well, Clinton reversed his position on NAFTA after his presidency. Obama could do something similar.

Saying that a trade deal was a bad call is a lot easier than saying "I guess I shouldn't have murdered all those people. My bad."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15683 Posts
March 09 2013 17:24 GMT
#3104
On March 09 2013 17:53 paralleluniverse wrote:
Wow, Cantor and Boehner attack Obama and WoW.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/08/gops_war_on_video_games/


Any Republicans around here want to elaborate on how this doesn't show how out of touch with reality Boehner is? How does this not hurt his credibility?
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-09 17:38:54
March 09 2013 17:26 GMT
#3105
On March 10 2013 02:15 ziggurat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2013 13:41 Roe wrote:
On March 09 2013 12:52 oneofthem wrote:
i honestly am very interested in how obama will explain his stance on the drone thing after this presidency is over.

Well, Clinton reversed his position on NAFTA after his presidency. Obama could do something similar.

Saying that a trade deal was a bad call is a lot easier than saying "I guess I shouldn't have murdered all those people. My bad."

obama cares about his legacy though. he would not outright admit to being a war criminal, but would still want to tell a story about his decisions.

here i think a portion of the left's reluctance to attack obama on drones, besides the tribal team mentality stuff, is in that obama is idealized as someone who not only sympathize with the neglected and marginalized, but is one of them. killing some pakis for a figment of american interest, is something very difficult to reconcile with this image. so his followers has to fill in the blank, [he must have some good reason].

this image of obama is not really true, he's not from some africna village. but i don't know if he's just being a legal nerd about a legal doctrine of legitimate war, or thinks some haters with hand grenades pose a serious and immediate risk to warrant killing pakistani children, or perhaps considers the presidency a deal with the devil of political expediency(strong security image), to whom a sacrifice of some pakis is but one among many.

it's eespecially hard to reconcile with his behavior during the egyptian uprising, where he seemed to discard crude sacrifice of the egyptian people in favor of doing the right thing.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
March 09 2013 18:09 GMT
#3106
On March 10 2013 02:24 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2013 17:53 paralleluniverse wrote:
Wow, Cantor and Boehner attack Obama and WoW.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/08/gops_war_on_video_games/


Any Republicans around here want to elaborate on how this doesn't show how out of touch with reality Boehner is? How does this not hurt his credibility?

No, it's lame. He's being cheerleader - "look at what the government is blowing money on now!" just to rile up some "rabble rabble rabble!". Unfortunately this kind of hot air is the bread and butter of politics.
McBengt
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden1684 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-09 18:29:39
March 09 2013 18:28 GMT
#3107
On March 09 2013 17:53 paralleluniverse wrote:
Wow, Cantor and Boehner attack Obama and WoW.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/08/gops_war_on_video_games/


Clearly, cartoonish video games featuring anthropomophic pandas and pseudo-hobbits with green beards are to blame for the economical woes of america.
"My twelve year old will out-reason Bill Maher when it comes to understanding, you know, what, uh, how to logic work" - Rick Santorum
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 09 2013 23:54 GMT
#3108
Every once in a while, an opportunity arises to do the right thing, the common sense thing.

Right now, US Attorney General Eric Holder has such an opportunity. He is "reviewing" the federal government's options for dealing with the nettlesome fact that two US states have now enacted laws legalizing and regulating the personal use of marijuana.

Faced with a similar problem with those several states that have legalized medical marijuana use, Holder and the US attorneys in those states have essentially declared war on cannabis dispensers. They have gone so far as to deploy the heavy hand of the federal government to threaten landlords with seizure of property used for dispensaries operating in accordance with state and local laws. And all this is occurring despite President Obama having suggested the government has better things to do with its limited resources than prosecute medical marijuana businesses and users.

Now, Attorney General Holder – and ultimately, his boss, the president – have to come to grips with the reality of two states whose voters have decided that modern-day Prohibition should end. Interestingly, President Obama carried both Washington and Colorado on the same ballot on which the marijuana legalization measures appeared. That shouldn't matter, but …

As the attorney general maneuvers through this problem, it is important to remember why it is, in fact, a problem. Unlike the failed and ultimately rejected prohibition of alcohol in the last century, allowing states to permit the legal use of marijuana does not involve violating or repealing a constitutional amendment. The federal government has a problem simply because marijuana is classified as a Schedule 1 substance under the Controlled Substances Act – the same law that lets the government decide that one painkiller requires a prescription and another doesn't.

That simple classification, and the myriad state laws that have resulted from it, have turned millions of Americans into criminals and empowered murderous cartels – in the same way that Prohibition empowered Al Capone and an entire generation of organized crime. Voters in Washington and Colorado looked at those realities, and quite reasonably decided that the questionable benefits of treating marijuana use as a crime do not justify the considerable and unmistakable costs.

Those voters didn't stage a coup. They didn't defy the US Constitution. And they didn't incite a rebellion. Rather, they just made a perfectly rational policy decision.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
sc2superfan101
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
3583 Posts
March 10 2013 04:06 GMT
#3109
On March 09 2013 07:09 Souma wrote:
Gay marriage is pretty close, but abortion isn't. Support for gay rights is a really recent phenomenon (not too long ago a majority of people disapproved of gay marriage), so the country is definitely moving left in that aspect.

'Pro-choice' and 'pro-life' are loaded terms. If you look at the percentage of people who support abortion to be legal in all circumstances/under certain circumstances, you'd see that a significant majority approve of abortion at least some times. Not even close.

To add, the term 'fiscal conservatism' is a load of crock. Most people care about how money is spent moreso than how much we spend. Of course no one wants waste, that's a given. Even the most liberal person doesn't want waste.

that could be taken both ways though. a significant majority do not approve of abortion in all circumstances. overwhelmingly, they oppose "abortion on demand."
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13924 Posts
March 10 2013 04:17 GMT
#3110
abortion is all about how you phrase the question and control the debate. Democrats making it about "womens right to murder a baby if they want to" sounds a lot less politically sexy then just saying "womens rights". Democrats have always taken a bullet on the whole feminist branch of the democratic party and republicans have in the past been able to win over a lot of women voters by being anti feminist and pro choice.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
March 10 2013 04:55 GMT
#3111
On March 10 2013 13:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2013 07:09 Souma wrote:
Gay marriage is pretty close, but abortion isn't. Support for gay rights is a really recent phenomenon (not too long ago a majority of people disapproved of gay marriage), so the country is definitely moving left in that aspect.

'Pro-choice' and 'pro-life' are loaded terms. If you look at the percentage of people who support abortion to be legal in all circumstances/under certain circumstances, you'd see that a significant majority approve of abortion at least some times. Not even close.

To add, the term 'fiscal conservatism' is a load of crock. Most people care about how money is spent moreso than how much we spend. Of course no one wants waste, that's a given. Even the most liberal person doesn't want waste.

that could be taken both ways though. a significant majority do not approve of abortion in all circumstances. overwhelmingly, they oppose "abortion on demand."


Uhm, pretty sure pro-choice is not about having "abortion on demand," whereas pro-life is about limiting abortion as much as possible (Republican platform wanted to limit it in all cases).
Writer
Reedjr
Profile Joined April 2011
United States228 Posts
March 10 2013 06:06 GMT
#3112
On March 10 2013 13:17 Sermokala wrote:
abortion is all about how you phrase the question and control the debate. Democrats making it about "womens right to murder a baby if they want to" sounds a lot less politically sexy then just saying "womens rights". Democrats have always taken a bullet on the whole feminist branch of the democratic party and republicans have in the past been able to win over a lot of women voters by being anti feminist and pro choice.

I don't know what you're talking about since, according to damn near everything I can find, women typically support Democrats. More women have voted for the Democratic presidential candidate than the Republican one in every election since 1992. "A lot of women voters" may vote Republican, but even more vote Democrat.

In what scenarios have you found an "anti-feminist" candidate doing well with women voters?
Gamer_Girl
Profile Joined February 2013
14 Posts
March 10 2013 08:34 GMT
#3113
On March 09 2013 13:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2013 04:31 DeepElemBlues wrote:
The institution of the GOP has to change or die. That simple.


*snort* If you say so.

It's far more likely that the Democratic Party's hodgepodge of interest groups combined only by their hatred of the GOP and hunger for free money will splinter over entitlement reform before the GOP dies because it isn't libertarian enough. I'm talking over a 20-30 year period here, the next 20-30 years.

The only "old" conservatism people rejected has been aspects of social conservatism, and that comes almost wholly from 18-30 voters. It remains to be seen if those voters will continue their high turnout after Obama isn't on the ballot anymore, and also if they will maintain their support for things like abortion as they get older. Gay marriage is a decided issue, and the GOP has already started to shift on it.

The real test is next year. If the implementation of Obamacare results in great difficulties for the people (reduced hours at work, the program doesn't run correctly because lots of people engage in civil disobedience against it - which is going to happen, the question is will it have a large effect on the program - people losing the health insurance they already have, etc.) then the Republicans will gain a few seats in the Senate, possibly retaking it, and keep holding the House, and the death of conservatism and the GOP will once again have been shown to be nothing but the triumphalist fantasies of the Left, as happened in 2008. If Obamacare works well and the GOP doesn't get any seats in the Senate and loses the House, then it will be time to either become a British Tory-style party, or go libertarian.


I seriously doubt this.

Yes, Democrats are far more diverse, but the thing is that they usually come to a general agreement on most issues. The problem for Republicans is that it's pretty much two different parties that agree on one or two issues that have combined so they have the numbers to challenge Democrats.

The main problem is our voting system. Whether it's in 20 years or 200, eventually it'll change, and it'll actually be a system that is conducive to more than two parties. Then, we'll finally see parties that aren't just hodgepodges of various ideas that can vaguely agree so that they can have enough numbers to gain seats in Congress.


You are wrong. Its not the system, its the people. You can have any sort of system and it can be corrupted. If you look at the US constitution as the system and follow it to a T as it was framed by the founders than the federal government would still have been a small 1000-2000 person government with no real power, but it obviously failed.

Democracy has also failed, because in almost all the cases a minority wins and rules over the majority, as only about 60% of the people vote and out of those about 35% vote for one party that wins, so in the end you have 1/3 of the people ruling over the others.
Not that the rule of the majority is a good thing, but at least you can argue that its better than other forms of organization, but that is simply not the case.

So to me its about people and when the people become too decadent and uninformed and stupid, they make bad decisions.

For example many people say that in a libertarian society people would make bad decisions, but they already make bad decisions and its a lot easier to choose a personal product over a politician.

Most people do really believe in "their team" the republicans or democrats and when the team leader wins they feel like victors as well. Its a tribalism instinct from the stone ages, because humans are ultimately tribalistic and that carries over to modern days and we see it in sports, communities and politics.

So when you challenge them about their DNA created belief that the team leader is not part of their team and they aren't the victors by association, they feel threatened and reject such notions because of fear.

This is why Obama the tyrant is adored by millions of people as he is destroying the bill of rights, as he's signed the NDAA, as he's extended the Patriot act, as he'd killed a 16yo US teen with drone strikes, as he's claimed the power to assassinate US citizens, etc... They can not conceive the reality.

First they have normalcy bias, then Stockholm syndrome and then learned helplessness. Of course then they are presented with the false choice of the republicans, which at the top are the same people, have the same corporate elite that is in charge of them as the democrats and are ultimately the same, but this is a very hard notion for people to come to the understanding of, because of all of the above mentioned conditions.

User was banned for this post.
sc2superfan101
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
3583 Posts
March 10 2013 10:58 GMT
#3114
On March 10 2013 13:55 Souma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 10 2013 13:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On March 09 2013 07:09 Souma wrote:
Gay marriage is pretty close, but abortion isn't. Support for gay rights is a really recent phenomenon (not too long ago a majority of people disapproved of gay marriage), so the country is definitely moving left in that aspect.

'Pro-choice' and 'pro-life' are loaded terms. If you look at the percentage of people who support abortion to be legal in all circumstances/under certain circumstances, you'd see that a significant majority approve of abortion at least some times. Not even close.

To add, the term 'fiscal conservatism' is a load of crock. Most people care about how money is spent moreso than how much we spend. Of course no one wants waste, that's a given. Even the most liberal person doesn't want waste.

that could be taken both ways though. a significant majority do not approve of abortion in all circumstances. overwhelmingly, they oppose "abortion on demand."


Uhm, pretty sure pro-choice is not about having "abortion on demand," whereas pro-life is about limiting abortion as much as possible (Republican platform wanted to limit it in all cases).

on the other hand, it's pretty obvious, (if we're being honest), that the Democrat party, and the "pro-choice" movement as a whole (as opposed to people who just classify themselves as pro-choice) is about, basically, abortion on demand. ie, abortion for whatever reason without almost any restrictions. as such, it would be wrong for either side to claim the largest portion (the middle ground of acceptable under certain circumstances) as their own. sure the Republicans (and more to the point: the right wing) are concerned with no abortions whatsoever excluding immediate danger to the mother's health, but at the same time, by the same token, the left wing is concerned with abortion for whatever reason at almost any time. a neutral cannot be claimed to be a participant and more than anything, the largest portion of America is, on this issue, neutral to a certain degree.

sure the "pro-choice" umbrella is wider, but that is simply a matter of expedience. making one feel obliged to land on one side over the other has always been the name of the game in love and war.

at the end of the day, calling the debate finished is not only inaccurate, it's displaying a severe lack of perception.
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-10 20:58:18
March 10 2013 20:40 GMT
#3115
On March 10 2013 19:58 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 10 2013 13:55 Souma wrote:
On March 10 2013 13:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On March 09 2013 07:09 Souma wrote:
Gay marriage is pretty close, but abortion isn't. Support for gay rights is a really recent phenomenon (not too long ago a majority of people disapproved of gay marriage), so the country is definitely moving left in that aspect.

'Pro-choice' and 'pro-life' are loaded terms. If you look at the percentage of people who support abortion to be legal in all circumstances/under certain circumstances, you'd see that a significant majority approve of abortion at least some times. Not even close.

To add, the term 'fiscal conservatism' is a load of crock. Most people care about how money is spent moreso than how much we spend. Of course no one wants waste, that's a given. Even the most liberal person doesn't want waste.

that could be taken both ways though. a significant majority do not approve of abortion in all circumstances. overwhelmingly, they oppose "abortion on demand."


Uhm, pretty sure pro-choice is not about having "abortion on demand," whereas pro-life is about limiting abortion as much as possible (Republican platform wanted to limit it in all cases).

on the other hand, it's pretty obvious, (if we're being honest), that the Democrat party, and the "pro-choice" movement as a whole (as opposed to people who just classify themselves as pro-choice) is about, basically, abortion on demand. ie, abortion for whatever reason without almost any restrictions. as such, it would be wrong for either side to claim the largest portion (the middle ground of acceptable under certain circumstances) as their own. sure the Republicans (and more to the point: the right wing) are concerned with no abortions whatsoever excluding immediate danger to the mother's health, but at the same time, by the same token, the left wing is concerned with abortion for whatever reason at almost any time. a neutral cannot be claimed to be a participant and more than anything, the largest portion of America is, on this issue, neutral to a certain degree.

sure the "pro-choice" umbrella is wider, but that is simply a matter of expedience. making one feel obliged to land on one side over the other has always been the name of the game in love and war.

at the end of the day, calling the debate finished is not only inaccurate, it's displaying a severe lack of perception.


Proof that pro-choice advocates are on "a whole... about, basically, abortion on demand." Unlike the Republican platform, which stated they wanted to abolish abortion in all cases, the Democratic platform, iirc, just wanted to keep the status quo. Obviously this doesn't account for every single pro-choicer/pro-lifer, but it's indicative of the general mindset of both sides.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I know that probably most "pro-lifers" don't advocate abolishing abortion in all circumstances; however, I'm saying 1) the term "pro-choice," as it is referred to throughout the media, is actually representative of more of the voter base than the term "pro-life," as is shown in that graph, and 2) "pro-choicers" are more about preserving the status quo than having "abortion on demand."
Writer
BlueBird.
Profile Joined August 2008
United States3889 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-10 21:08:18
March 10 2013 21:03 GMT
#3116
On March 10 2013 19:58 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 10 2013 13:55 Souma wrote:
On March 10 2013 13:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On March 09 2013 07:09 Souma wrote:
Gay marriage is pretty close, but abortion isn't. Support for gay rights is a really recent phenomenon (not too long ago a majority of people disapproved of gay marriage), so the country is definitely moving left in that aspect.

'Pro-choice' and 'pro-life' are loaded terms. If you look at the percentage of people who support abortion to be legal in all circumstances/under certain circumstances, you'd see that a significant majority approve of abortion at least some times. Not even close.

To add, the term 'fiscal conservatism' is a load of crock. Most people care about how money is spent moreso than how much we spend. Of course no one wants waste, that's a given. Even the most liberal person doesn't want waste.

that could be taken both ways though. a significant majority do not approve of abortion in all circumstances. overwhelmingly, they oppose "abortion on demand."


Uhm, pretty sure pro-choice is not about having "abortion on demand," whereas pro-life is about limiting abortion as much as possible (Republican platform wanted to limit it in all cases).

on the other hand, it's pretty obvious, (if we're being honest), that the Democrat party, and the "pro-choice" movement as a whole (as opposed to people who just classify themselves as pro-choice) is about, basically, abortion on demand. ie, abortion for whatever reason without almost any restrictions. as such, it would be wrong for either side to claim the largest portion (the middle ground of acceptable under certain circumstances) as their own. sure the Republicans (and more to the point: the right wing) are concerned with no abortions whatsoever excluding immediate danger to the mother's health, but at the same time, by the same token, the left wing is concerned with abortion for whatever reason at almost any time. a neutral cannot be claimed to be a participant and more than anything, the largest portion of America is, on this issue, neutral to a certain degree.

sure the "pro-choice" umbrella is wider, but that is simply a matter of expedience. making one feel obliged to land on one side over the other has always been the name of the game in love and war.

at the end of the day, calling the debate finished is not only inaccurate, it's displaying a severe lack of perception.


I think your perception is wrong actually, it's not "pretty obvious" to me at least, and I'm being as honest as I can.., and I would re look at the situation. I don't think democrats are for unrestricted abortion at any point in a pregnancy.

Most "pro-choicers" that I know, are for un-restricted(this means absolutely no bullshit like looking at images of the fetus, etc) abortions up to a certain time in the pregnancy, I won't go in to exact time frame since I am not a professional in the field, after that time, abortion must be for a medical reason, (physical or psychological).

Anyways, this right is supported by the judicial interpretation of Roe V. Wade, and protected by the federal government, so until you can pass a constitutional amendment, I don't really care what you have to say about it, but I will go ahead and work against any kinds of methods that people come up to try to restrict abortions anyways, scare tactics, financial stuff, etc.
Currently Playing: Android Netrunner, Gwent, Gloomhaven, Board Games
BlueBird.
Profile Joined August 2008
United States3889 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-10 21:04:53
March 10 2013 21:04 GMT
#3117
double post :/
Currently Playing: Android Netrunner, Gwent, Gloomhaven, Board Games
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
March 10 2013 21:42 GMT
#3118
On March 11 2013 06:03 BlueBird. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 10 2013 19:58 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On March 10 2013 13:55 Souma wrote:
On March 10 2013 13:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On March 09 2013 07:09 Souma wrote:
Gay marriage is pretty close, but abortion isn't. Support for gay rights is a really recent phenomenon (not too long ago a majority of people disapproved of gay marriage), so the country is definitely moving left in that aspect.

'Pro-choice' and 'pro-life' are loaded terms. If you look at the percentage of people who support abortion to be legal in all circumstances/under certain circumstances, you'd see that a significant majority approve of abortion at least some times. Not even close.

To add, the term 'fiscal conservatism' is a load of crock. Most people care about how money is spent moreso than how much we spend. Of course no one wants waste, that's a given. Even the most liberal person doesn't want waste.

that could be taken both ways though. a significant majority do not approve of abortion in all circumstances. overwhelmingly, they oppose "abortion on demand."


Uhm, pretty sure pro-choice is not about having "abortion on demand," whereas pro-life is about limiting abortion as much as possible (Republican platform wanted to limit it in all cases).

on the other hand, it's pretty obvious, (if we're being honest), that the Democrat party, and the "pro-choice" movement as a whole (as opposed to people who just classify themselves as pro-choice) is about, basically, abortion on demand. ie, abortion for whatever reason without almost any restrictions. as such, it would be wrong for either side to claim the largest portion (the middle ground of acceptable under certain circumstances) as their own. sure the Republicans (and more to the point: the right wing) are concerned with no abortions whatsoever excluding immediate danger to the mother's health, but at the same time, by the same token, the left wing is concerned with abortion for whatever reason at almost any time. a neutral cannot be claimed to be a participant and more than anything, the largest portion of America is, on this issue, neutral to a certain degree.

sure the "pro-choice" umbrella is wider, but that is simply a matter of expedience. making one feel obliged to land on one side over the other has always been the name of the game in love and war.

at the end of the day, calling the debate finished is not only inaccurate, it's displaying a severe lack of perception.


I think your perception is wrong actually, it's not "pretty obvious" to me at least, and I'm being as honest as I can.., and I would re look at the situation. I don't think democrats are for unrestricted abortion at any point in a pregnancy.

Most "pro-choicers" that I know, are for un-restricted(this means absolutely no bullshit like looking at images of the fetus, etc) abortions up to a certain time in the pregnancy, I won't go in to exact time frame since I am not a professional in the field, after that time, abortion must be for a medical reason, (physical or psychological).

Anyways, this right is supported by the judicial interpretation of Roe V. Wade, and protected by the federal government, so until you can pass a constitutional amendment, I don't really care what you have to say about it, but I will go ahead and work against any kinds of methods that people come up to try to restrict abortions anyways, scare tactics, financial stuff, etc.

The timeframe for choosing is contentious though. It is now possible to determine if a fetus is going to become a boy or a girl before the 3 months that limits it today. There is actually not much reason to fight for increasing abortion past the existing timeframe. Therefore "pro-life" has an advantage.
That both endpoints pro-ife and pro-choice is insanity should be obvious for scientific reasons. However, when it comes to shifting the line for abortion, the pendulum is swinging towards setting stricter guidelines than the existing. Roe v. Wade should be pretty logical for what it was about, but it only seems to deal with aged knowledge on the subject. Viability is still not relevant with the 3 month limit being legal. It seems to lack some of the more philosophical dilemmas: Is it ok to choose to get an abortion on grounds like gender or genetical markers when it is before the 3 month limit? Since both are in the fetal state of development technologically, so to speak, it is a relevant question to ask and now more than ever. If only the two sides would battle their extremists and get a discussion on those subjects going instead of emotional blackmail of the pregnant and harmful general bans I could support pro life on this issue.
Repeat before me
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-10 22:36:20
March 10 2013 22:19 GMT
#3119
the abortion thing turns on what kind of attitude you take towards the value of life. life quality vs life as sacred object.

i guess i could make an argument for infanticide if the right situation calls for it. it is certainly not murder unless done with malice perhaps.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
BlueBird.
Profile Joined August 2008
United States3889 Posts
March 10 2013 22:20 GMT
#3120
On March 11 2013 06:42 radiatoren wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 11 2013 06:03 BlueBird. wrote:
On March 10 2013 19:58 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On March 10 2013 13:55 Souma wrote:
On March 10 2013 13:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On March 09 2013 07:09 Souma wrote:
Gay marriage is pretty close, but abortion isn't. Support for gay rights is a really recent phenomenon (not too long ago a majority of people disapproved of gay marriage), so the country is definitely moving left in that aspect.

'Pro-choice' and 'pro-life' are loaded terms. If you look at the percentage of people who support abortion to be legal in all circumstances/under certain circumstances, you'd see that a significant majority approve of abortion at least some times. Not even close.

To add, the term 'fiscal conservatism' is a load of crock. Most people care about how money is spent moreso than how much we spend. Of course no one wants waste, that's a given. Even the most liberal person doesn't want waste.

that could be taken both ways though. a significant majority do not approve of abortion in all circumstances. overwhelmingly, they oppose "abortion on demand."


Uhm, pretty sure pro-choice is not about having "abortion on demand," whereas pro-life is about limiting abortion as much as possible (Republican platform wanted to limit it in all cases).

on the other hand, it's pretty obvious, (if we're being honest), that the Democrat party, and the "pro-choice" movement as a whole (as opposed to people who just classify themselves as pro-choice) is about, basically, abortion on demand. ie, abortion for whatever reason without almost any restrictions. as such, it would be wrong for either side to claim the largest portion (the middle ground of acceptable under certain circumstances) as their own. sure the Republicans (and more to the point: the right wing) are concerned with no abortions whatsoever excluding immediate danger to the mother's health, but at the same time, by the same token, the left wing is concerned with abortion for whatever reason at almost any time. a neutral cannot be claimed to be a participant and more than anything, the largest portion of America is, on this issue, neutral to a certain degree.

sure the "pro-choice" umbrella is wider, but that is simply a matter of expedience. making one feel obliged to land on one side over the other has always been the name of the game in love and war.

at the end of the day, calling the debate finished is not only inaccurate, it's displaying a severe lack of perception.


I think your perception is wrong actually, it's not "pretty obvious" to me at least, and I'm being as honest as I can.., and I would re look at the situation. I don't think democrats are for unrestricted abortion at any point in a pregnancy.

Most "pro-choicers" that I know, are for un-restricted(this means absolutely no bullshit like looking at images of the fetus, etc) abortions up to a certain time in the pregnancy, I won't go in to exact time frame since I am not a professional in the field, after that time, abortion must be for a medical reason, (physical or psychological).

Anyways, this right is supported by the judicial interpretation of Roe V. Wade, and protected by the federal government, so until you can pass a constitutional amendment, I don't really care what you have to say about it, but I will go ahead and work against any kinds of methods that people come up to try to restrict abortions anyways, scare tactics, financial stuff, etc.

The timeframe for choosing is contentious though. It is now possible to determine if a fetus is going to become a boy or a girl before the 3 months that limits it today. There is actually not much reason to fight for increasing abortion past the existing timeframe. Therefore "pro-life" has an advantage.
That both endpoints pro-ife and pro-choice is insanity should be obvious for scientific reasons. However, when it comes to shifting the line for abortion, the pendulum is swinging towards setting stricter guidelines than the existing. Roe v. Wade should be pretty logical for what it was about, but it only seems to deal with aged knowledge on the subject. Viability is still not relevant with the 3 month limit being legal. It seems to lack some of the more philosophical dilemmas: Is it ok to choose to get an abortion on grounds like gender or genetical markers when it is before the 3 month limit? Since both are in the fetal state of development technologically, so to speak, it is a relevant question to ask and now more than ever. If only the two sides would battle their extremists and get a discussion on those subjects going instead of emotional blackmail of the pregnant and harmful general bans I could support pro life on this issue.


The timing is important but I'm not in a position to make an informed decision I am not a professional in the field . I think your right in that it's a good discussion. My issue with restricting abortions when it comes to thinks like genetics and gender is how are you going to determine that's what the abortion is about??? I can see where your going as far as ethics but I don't necessarily agree with you and I dont see a reasonable way to enforce the idea either

My point still stands the idea that democrats and liberals and pro choice want completely unrestricted abortions is ridiculous , can
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