In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
That's a very healthy attitude to have personally but the effects of discrimination are pretty evident. Native Americans are another group in the US that has a lot of problems. Or Muslims in Germany, France or Russia. It's not rocket science. Marginalized minorities face socio-economic problems all over the world, often proportionate to the degree of discrimination they have experienced, completely independent from what cultural attitudes they share or don't.
no dispute that they face problems, but how they deal with them determines how their futures will develop. want to know another marginalized minority group in america? japanese. the U.S. government put them in camps, stole all of their lands and belongings and generally did bad shit to them. the U.S. government had propaganda material for the sole purpose of making it easier for americans to kill japanese (we were at war of course). all within the last century. how are the japanese doing in the modern day? pretty damn well. people use race as a crutch too often.
Are you really comparing the Japanese to an entire race of people from different backgrounds with different levels of treatment in America for long periods of time? :/
Don't even know why that racist pos xdaunt is allowed to post here.
you seem to be unfamiliar with the anti-asian sentiment in america, including the de facto slavery of chinese/japanese. USA has a neat ability to hate everyone and fuck them all in the asses when it comes to civil rights.
and what point are you trying to make? equality and fairness arent things one should need to fight for, they are basic rights.
you can sit back and wait for people to give you something, or you can take it. thats the point as previously stated:
no dispute that they face problems, but how they deal with them determines how their futures will develop.
thats just a nicer way of victim blaiming. the try to deal with the problems as well as they can, but it seemingly doesnt work out. not the victims, but the opressing party has the responsibility to change the status quo.
or, to be more positive, why do you think did it work out for the japanese, and not for the black community?
On November 26 2014 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote: The rioters and the protesters are two different groups as was evidenced by the multiple protests (for the same overarching reasons) that had no violence or looting all over the country.
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community) are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system.
The way you formulated that sentence is actually outright racist.
Whoops, I didn't even notice that.
Please tell us what you meant to say?
Here's my edit:
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community).
In other words, I don't know if there are any black people who agree that Wilson should have been acquitted but still desire to challenge the justice system. I'd think that they're out there somewhere, but they sure as hell aren't being heard.
That's a very healthy attitude to have personally but the effects of discrimination are pretty evident. Native Americans are another group in the US that has a lot of problems. Or Muslims in Germany, France or Russia. It's not rocket science. Marginalized minorities face socio-economic problems all over the world, often proportionate to the degree of discrimination they have experienced, completely independent from what cultural attitudes they share or don't.
no dispute that they face problems, but how they deal with them determines how their futures will develop. want to know another marginalized minority group in america? japanese. the U.S. government put them in camps, stole all of their lands and belongings and generally did bad shit to them. the U.S. government had propaganda material for the sole purpose of making it easier for americans to kill japanese (we were at war of course). all within the last century. how are the japanese doing in the modern day? pretty damn well. people use race as a crutch too often.
Are you really comparing the Japanese to an entire race of people from different backgrounds with different levels of treatment in America for long periods of time? :/
Don't even know why that racist pos xdaunt is allowed to post here.
you seem to be unfamiliar with the anti-asian sentiment in america, including the de facto slavery of chinese/japanese. USA has a neat ability to hate everyone and fuck them all in the asses when it comes to civil rights.
and what point are you trying to make? equality and fairness arent things one should need to fight for, they are basic rights.
you can sit back and wait for people to give you something, or you can take it. thats the point as previously stated:
no dispute that they face problems, but how they deal with them determines how their futures will develop.
thats just a nicer way of victim blaiming. the try to deal with the problems as well as they can, but it seemingly doesnt work out. not the victims, but the opressing party has the responsibility to change the status quo.
or, to be more positive, why do you think did it work out for the japanese, and not for the black community?
As racist as this may sound, but Japanese attitudes towards work culture, education, and money played probably the largest role in it.
When you realize that black people are not ONE culture or from one country then maybe you will start making some sense. Jesus. The stereotypes, my god.
The drones came for Ayman Zawahiri on 13 January 2006, hovering over a village in Pakistan called Damadola. Ten months later, they came again for the man who would become al-Qaida’s leader, this time in Bajaur.
Eight years later, Zawahiri is still alive. Seventy-six children and 29 adults, according to reports after the two strikes, are not.
However many Americans know who Zawahiri is, far fewer are familiar with Qari Hussain. Hussain was a deputy commander of the Pakistani Taliban, a militant group aligned with al-Qaida that trained the would-be Times Square bomber, Faisal Shahzad, before his unsuccessful 2010 attack. The drones first came for Hussain years before, on 29 January 2008. Then they came on 23 June 2009, 15 January 2010, 2 October 2010 and 7 October 2010.
Finally, on 15 October 2010, Hellfire missiles fired from a Predator or Reaper drone killed Hussain, the Pakistani Taliban later confirmed. For the death of a man whom practically no American can name, the US killed 128 people, 13 of them children, none of whom it meant to harm.
A new analysis of the data available to the public about drone strikes, conducted by the human-rights group Reprieve, indicates that even when operators target specific individuals – the most focused effort of what Barack Obama calls “targeted killing” – they kill vastly more people than their targets, often needing to strike multiple times. Attempts to kill 41 men resulted in the deaths of an estimated 1,147 people, as of 24 November.
Reprieve, sifting through reports compiled by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, examined cases in which specific people were targeted by drones multiple times. Their data, shared with the Guardian, raises questions about the accuracy of US intelligence guiding strikes that US officials describe using words like “clinical” and “precise.”
And yet, despite the dishonest implication of the article, drone strikes have resulted in a 3:1 or 4:1 terrorist/fighter/whatever you want to call them:civilian death ratio, the best ratio for aerial bombing in history.
All the irrelevant little editorializing is funny too. Practically no American can name him, so what? Zero relevance. The US killed 128 people it did not meant to harm to kill Hussain? Bullshit. Most of those 128 were Hussain's little jihadi buddies. The US might not have specifically meant to harm them, but the impression (again, dishonest) is that those 128 were civilians. Most of them weren't. The same with the dishonest impression that an attempt was being made to create by saying 1,147 people were killed to get 41. Sorry, most of those 1,147 weren't innocent civilians either. I don't give a shit if 300 other terrorists were killed in 8 strikes targeting one particular terrorist who finally died also, and neither does anyone else except organizations like Reprieve and the Grauniad who run interference for terrorists.
lol. and people wonder why they hate and want to fight you every step of the way.
That's a very healthy attitude to have personally but the effects of discrimination are pretty evident. Native Americans are another group in the US that has a lot of problems. Or Muslims in Germany, France or Russia. It's not rocket science. Marginalized minorities face socio-economic problems all over the world, often proportionate to the degree of discrimination they have experienced, completely independent from what cultural attitudes they share or don't.
no dispute that they face problems, but how they deal with them determines how their futures will develop. want to know another marginalized minority group in america? japanese. the U.S. government put them in camps, stole all of their lands and belongings and generally did bad shit to them. the U.S. government had propaganda material for the sole purpose of making it easier for americans to kill japanese (we were at war of course). all within the last century. how are the japanese doing in the modern day? pretty damn well. people use race as a crutch too often.
Are you really comparing the Japanese to an entire race of people from different backgrounds with different levels of treatment in America for long periods of time? :/
Don't even know why that racist pos xdaunt is allowed to post here.
you seem to be unfamiliar with the anti-asian sentiment in america, including the de facto slavery of chinese/japanese. USA has a neat ability to hate everyone and fuck them all in the asses when it comes to civil rights.
and what point are you trying to make? equality and fairness arent things one should need to fight for, they are basic rights.
you can sit back and wait for people to give you something, or you can take it. thats the point as previously stated:
no dispute that they face problems, but how they deal with them determines how their futures will develop.
thats just a nicer way of victim blaiming. the try to deal with the problems as well as they can, but it seemingly doesnt work out. not the victims, but the opressing party has the responsibility to change the status quo.
or, to be more positive, why do you think did it work out for the japanese, and not for the black community?
As racist as this may sound, but Japanese attitudes towards work culture, education, and money played probably the largest role in it.
this may be true, just makes the comparison between the two groups rather useless
That's a very healthy attitude to have personally but the effects of discrimination are pretty evident. Native Americans are another group in the US that has a lot of problems. Or Muslims in Germany, France or Russia. It's not rocket science. Marginalized minorities face socio-economic problems all over the world, often proportionate to the degree of discrimination they have experienced, completely independent from what cultural attitudes they share or don't.
no dispute that they face problems, but how they deal with them determines how their futures will develop. want to know another marginalized minority group in america? japanese. the U.S. government put them in camps, stole all of their lands and belongings and generally did bad shit to them. the U.S. government had propaganda material for the sole purpose of making it easier for americans to kill japanese (we were at war of course). all within the last century. how are the japanese doing in the modern day? pretty damn well. people use race as a crutch too often.
Are you really comparing the Japanese to an entire race of people from different backgrounds with different levels of treatment in America for long periods of time? :/
Don't even know why that racist pos xdaunt is allowed to post here.
you seem to be unfamiliar with the anti-asian sentiment in america, including the de facto slavery of chinese/japanese. USA has a neat ability to hate everyone and fuck them all in the asses when it comes to civil rights.
and what point are you trying to make? equality and fairness arent things one should need to fight for, they are basic rights.
you can sit back and wait for people to give you something, or you can take it. thats the point as previously stated:
no dispute that they face problems, but how they deal with them determines how their futures will develop.
thats just a nicer way of victim blaiming. the try to deal with the problems as well as they can, but it seemingly doesnt work out. not the victims, but the opressing party has the responsibility to change the status quo.
or, to be more positive, why do you think did it work out for the japanese, and not for the black community?
the simple answer is that i dont know, and i fear that if i did provide an answer it would be heavily biased based on my experiences. nevertheless, i think its a cultural thing and has a lot to do with upbringing and the importance placed on certain aspects of life, especially self-worth and improvement. similar experience to how pre- and post-world war ii japan looks like today.
On November 26 2014 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote: The rioters and the protesters are two different groups as was evidenced by the multiple protests (for the same overarching reasons) that had no violence or looting all over the country.
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community) are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system.
The way you formulated that sentence is actually outright racist.
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community).
In other words, I don't know if there are any black people who agree that Wilson should have been acquitted but still desire to challenge the justice system. I'd think that they're out there somewhere, but they sure as hell aren't being heard.
Maybe because they have been challenging the system for ages now, and the only time anyone pays any attention to the underlying issue is when shit like this or Trayvon Martin happens.
It is also very likely that the media plays a huge part in this. They want sensation, they want drama. They want the fake witness reports and the "young kid shot in the back" because drama sells. The rational community leader saying this case was correct but the police needs to change their ways probably isnt going to get even 2 seconds of screen time, even if his case is the correct one.
On November 26 2014 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote: The rioters and the protesters are two different groups as was evidenced by the multiple protests (for the same overarching reasons) that had no violence or looting all over the country.
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community) are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system.
The way you formulated that sentence is actually outright racist.
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community).
In other words, I don't know if there are any black people who agree that Wilson should have been acquitted but still desire to challenge the justice system. I'd think that they're out there somewhere, but they sure as hell aren't being heard.
You just aren't listening.
Still seems like a racist statement to me, but with the only other black person opining on the issue temp banned, while you don't even get warned for saying what you said before or after the edit, I'll just keep my mouth shut and just take that shit like usual.
On November 26 2014 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote: The rioters and the protesters are two different groups as was evidenced by the multiple protests (for the same overarching reasons) that had no violence or looting all over the country.
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community) are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system.
The way you formulated that sentence is actually outright racist.
Whoops, I didn't even notice that.
Please tell us what you meant to say?
Here's my edit:
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community).
In other words, I don't know if there are any black people who agree that Wilson should have been acquitted but still desire to challenge the justice system. I'd think that they're out there somewhere, but they sure as hell aren't being heard.
Maybe because they have been challenging the system for ages now, and the only time anyone pays any attention to the underlying issue is when shit like this or Trayvon Martin happens.
It is also very likely that the media plays a huge part in this. They want sensation, they want drama. They want the fake witness reports and the "young kid shot in the back" because drama sells. The rational community leader saying this case was correct but the police needs to change their ways probably isnt going to get even 2 seconds of screen time, even if his case is the correct one.
On November 26 2014 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote: The rioters and the protesters are two different groups as was evidenced by the multiple protests (for the same overarching reasons) that had no violence or looting all over the country.
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community) are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system.
The way you formulated that sentence is actually outright racist.
Whoops, I didn't even notice that.
Please tell us what you meant to say?
Here's my edit:
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community).
In other words, I don't know if there are any black people who agree that Wilson should have been acquitted but still desire to challenge the justice system. I'd think that they're out there somewhere, but they sure as hell aren't being heard.
Still seems like a racist statement to me, but with the only other black person opining on the issue temp banned, while you don't even get warned for saying what you said before or after the edit, I'll just keep my mouth shut and just take that shit like usual.
What do you want? I'm acknowledging that the justice system unfairly treats black people, which is the real issue here.
That's a very healthy attitude to have personally but the effects of discrimination are pretty evident. Native Americans are another group in the US that has a lot of problems. Or Muslims in Germany, France or Russia. It's not rocket science. Marginalized minorities face socio-economic problems all over the world, often proportionate to the degree of discrimination they have experienced, completely independent from what cultural attitudes they share or don't.
no dispute that they face problems, but how they deal with them determines how their futures will develop. want to know another marginalized minority group in america? japanese. the U.S. government put them in camps, stole all of their lands and belongings and generally did bad shit to them. the U.S. government had propaganda material for the sole purpose of making it easier for americans to kill japanese (we were at war of course). all within the last century. how are the japanese doing in the modern day? pretty damn well. people use race as a crutch too often.
Are you really comparing the Japanese to an entire race of people from different backgrounds with different levels of treatment in America for long periods of time? :/
Don't even know why that racist pos xdaunt is allowed to post here.
you seem to be unfamiliar with the anti-asian sentiment in america, including the de facto slavery of chinese/japanese. USA has a neat ability to hate everyone and fuck them all in the asses when it comes to civil rights.
and what point are you trying to make? equality and fairness arent things one should need to fight for, they are basic rights.
you can sit back and wait for people to give you something, or you can take it. thats the point as previously stated:
no dispute that they face problems, but how they deal with them determines how their futures will develop.
thats just a nicer way of victim blaiming. the try to deal with the problems as well as they can, but it seemingly doesnt work out. not the victims, but the opressing party has the responsibility to change the status quo.
or, to be more positive, why do you think did it work out for the japanese, and not for the black community?
As racist as this may sound, but Japanese attitudes towards work culture, education, and money played probably the largest role in it.
Ya, that actually is in fact racist because it ignores the actual outcomes in the Asian community and replaces them with an idealization of Asians. http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/06/19/the-rise-of-asian-americans/ For example, if we look at the numbers you may be surprised to find that Filipinos and Indians are much better off than average Americans, outperforming both Chinese and Japanese, Koreans are the worst performing of the statistically significant groups, merely touching the American median.
When people bring up Japanese concentration camps (130,000 total interred) and Chinese railroad slaves (their numbers decimated by the Chinese Exclusion Act) they are right to point that American racism is all pervasive, but those two groups -- as a percentage of the current Asian population is minuscule. The 20th century arrivals simply dwarf them out statistically, and those arrivals essentially represent some of the best members of their respective communities. What you see when you see the vast majority of Asians are recent, 60 years or so, immigrants who represent a selected demographic of their homelands. Just as African immigrants from Africa also tend to hold a disproportionate level of education vs their home countries.
Comparing them to blacks would only be fair if we scooped up the top 20% of all African Americans -- among whom the vast majority would be holders of at least a bachelor degree and posses asset wealth similar to an average Asian family if we cut out the hyper-superior Indian-Americans.
On November 26 2014 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote: The rioters and the protesters are two different groups as was evidenced by the multiple protests (for the same overarching reasons) that had no violence or looting all over the country.
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community) are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system.
The way you formulated that sentence is actually outright racist.
Whoops, I didn't even notice that.
Please tell us what you meant to say?
Here's my edit:
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community).
In other words, I don't know if there are any black people who agree that Wilson should have been acquitted but still desire to challenge the justice system. I'd think that they're out there somewhere, but they sure as hell aren't being heard.
Still seems like a racist statement to me, but with the only other black person opining on the issue temp banned, while you don't even get warned for saying what you said before or after the edit, I'll just keep my mouth shut and just take that shit like usual.
What do you want? I'm acknowledging that the justice system unfairly treats black people, which is the real issue here.
I wan't you to not say what you did, not edit into a more palatable racist comment.
Just so I'm clear how did you acknowledge that the justice system unfairly treats black people?
And just to put a bookend on the discussion from last night regarding the fairness of the grand jury process in this case:
Legal experts across the country agree that while the process that led to a grand jury’s decision not to indict Officer Darren Wilson for killing Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, was unusual, it was not unfair. Rather if it was anything unusual, it was in its fairness and openness.
Lawyers and academics told The Washington Times that, despite their personal opinions on the case, which has sparked riots over police brutality, St. Louis county prosecutor Robert McCulloch sought unbiased justice in presenting the jury with every piece of evidence and then making that evidence public.
“It was the most thorough grand jury investigation that I’ve ever heard of,” said Stephen Saltzburg, a professor of law at George Washington University Law School.
Media outlets and supporters of Mr. Brown have said that Mr. McCulloch’s prosecution was unusual because he did not go in with the goal of seeking an indictment in secret, as most prosecutors do.
But Richard Kelsey, assistant dean for management and planning at George Mason University law school, said that what makes this case more unusual is that Mr. McCulloch sought justice rather than an indictment.
“More recently everyone has head the statement that ‘a good prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich,’” Mr. Kelsey said. “It is true that it is usually easy to get an indictment, but is that a just process? I would say no.”
Legal scholars say that Mr. McCulloch’s decision to release the evidence presented to the grand jury for public scrutiny was also unprecedented, since grand-jury hearings are usually shrouded in secrecy, both while going on and after the fact.
“Usually you don’t hear what evidence they considered,” Mr. Saltzburg said. “I give the prosecutor top marks in terms of transparency and accountability.”
The Brown family and their supporters argue that if the prosecutor had championed harder for an indictment, a full trial could have led to a conviction. But lawyers say in this case, a strong push to indict Officer Wilson merely based on the easier legal standard of “probable cause” would have merely set up a trial where the prosecution likely would have failed to get a guilty verdict based on the much stiffer “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard.
“Even if you could have gotten an indictment, what good does it do to get an indictment and then have your case thrown out,” said Gabriel Chin, a professor at the University of California Davis School of Law.
“You go ahead and do a weak grand jury presentation, but if you do it in a case that’s actually weak, how are you going to feel when you are prosecuting a case that you really shouldn’t be prosecuting,” Mr. Chin said.
On November 26 2014 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote: The rioters and the protesters are two different groups as was evidenced by the multiple protests (for the same overarching reasons) that had no violence or looting all over the country.
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community) are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system.
The way you formulated that sentence is actually outright racist.
Whoops, I didn't even notice that.
Please tell us what you meant to say?
Here's my edit:
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community).
In other words, I don't know if there are any black people who agree that Wilson should have been acquitted but still desire to challenge the justice system. I'd think that they're out there somewhere, but they sure as hell aren't being heard.
Still seems like a racist statement to me, but with the only other black person opining on the issue temp banned, while you don't even get warned for saying what you said before or after the edit, I'll just keep my mouth shut and just take that shit like usual.
What do you want? I'm acknowledging that the justice system unfairly treats black people, which is the real issue here.
I wan't you to not say what you did, not edit into a more palatable racist comment.
Just so I'm clear how did you acknowledge that the justice system unfairly treats black people?
I've acknowledged as such probably half a dozen times over the past 24 hours in this thread.
Regardless, I'm still going to call out the ridiculousness that is the black community hanging their grievance hat on the Michael Brown case. My ultimate point is that the black community is defeating itself here.
That's a very healthy attitude to have personally but the effects of discrimination are pretty evident. Native Americans are another group in the US that has a lot of problems. Or Muslims in Germany, France or Russia. It's not rocket science. Marginalized minorities face socio-economic problems all over the world, often proportionate to the degree of discrimination they have experienced, completely independent from what cultural attitudes they share or don't.
no dispute that they face problems, but how they deal with them determines how their futures will develop. want to know another marginalized minority group in america? japanese. the U.S. government put them in camps, stole all of their lands and belongings and generally did bad shit to them. the U.S. government had propaganda material for the sole purpose of making it easier for americans to kill japanese (we were at war of course). all within the last century. how are the japanese doing in the modern day? pretty damn well. people use race as a crutch too often.
Are you really comparing the Japanese to an entire race of people from different backgrounds with different levels of treatment in America for long periods of time? :/
Don't even know why that racist pos xdaunt is allowed to post here.
you seem to be unfamiliar with the anti-asian sentiment in america, including the de facto slavery of chinese/japanese. USA has a neat ability to hate everyone and fuck them all in the asses when it comes to civil rights.
and what point are you trying to make? equality and fairness arent things one should need to fight for, they are basic rights.
you can sit back and wait for people to give you something, or you can take it. thats the point as previously stated:
no dispute that they face problems, but how they deal with them determines how their futures will develop.
thats just a nicer way of victim blaiming. the try to deal with the problems as well as they can, but it seemingly doesnt work out. not the victims, but the opressing party has the responsibility to change the status quo.
or, to be more positive, why do you think did it work out for the japanese, and not for the black community?
As racist as this may sound, but Japanese attitudes towards work culture, education, and money played probably the largest role in it.
Ya, that actually is in fact racist because it ignores the actual outcomes in the Asian community and replaces them with an idealization of Asians. http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/06/19/the-rise-of-asian-americans/ For example, if we look at the numbers you may be surprised to find that Filipinos and Indians are much better off than average Americans, outperforming both Chinese and Japanese, Koreans are the worst performing of the statistically significant groups, merely touching the American median.
When people bring up Japanese concentration camps (130,000 total interred) and Chinese railroad slaves (their numbers decimated by the Chinese Exclusion Act) they are right to point that American racism is all pervasive, but those two groups -- as a percentage of the current Asian population is minuscule. The 20th century arrivals simply dwarf them out statistically, and those arrivals essentially represent some of the best members of their respective communities. What you see when you see the vast majority of Asians are recent, 60 years or so, immigrants who represent a selected demographic of their homelands. Just as African immigrants from Africa also tend to hold a disproportionate level of education vs their home countries.
Comparing them to blacks would only be fair if we scooped up the top 20% of all African Americans -- among whom the vast majority would be holders of at least a bachelor degree and posses asset wealth similar to an average Asian family if we cut out the hyper-superior Indian-Americans.
None of which describes any of the phenomenon regarding the significant socio-economic ladder of the Japanese and African Americans.
On November 26 2014 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote: The rioters and the protesters are two different groups as was evidenced by the multiple protests (for the same overarching reasons) that had no violence or looting all over the country.
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community) are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system.
The way you formulated that sentence is actually outright racist.
Whoops, I didn't even notice that.
Please tell us what you meant to say?
Here's my edit:
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community).
In other words, I don't know if there are any black people who agree that Wilson should have been acquitted but still desire to challenge the justice system. I'd think that they're out there somewhere, but they sure as hell aren't being heard.
Still seems like a racist statement to me, but with the only other black person opining on the issue temp banned, while you don't even get warned for saying what you said before or after the edit, I'll just keep my mouth shut and just take that shit like usual.
What do you want? I'm acknowledging that the justice system unfairly treats black people, which is the real issue here.
I wan't you to not say what you did, not edit into a more palatable racist comment.
Just so I'm clear how did you acknowledge that the justice system unfairly treats black people?
I've acknowledged as such probably half a dozen times over the past 24 hours in this thread.
Regardless, I'm still going to call out the ridiculousness that is the black community hanging their grievance hat on the Michael Brown case. My ultimate point is that the black community is defeating itself here.
A minority of the black community is giving people like you all the ammunition they need to dismiss the righteous outrage of the majority and claim "I don't know if there are any sane people in the black community" and think it isn't a bigoted, racist, comment.
So to that degree you are right, but talking about the 'black community' as if they all fit your narrative is ridiculous.
Was ACE seriously the only other black poster in this thread?
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community) are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system.
The way you formulated that sentence is actually outright racist.
Whoops, I didn't even notice that.
Please tell us what you meant to say?
Here's my edit:
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community).
In other words, I don't know if there are any black people who agree that Wilson should have been acquitted but still desire to challenge the justice system. I'd think that they're out there somewhere, but they sure as hell aren't being heard.
Still seems like a racist statement to me, but with the only other black person opining on the issue temp banned, while you don't even get warned for saying what you said before or after the edit, I'll just keep my mouth shut and just take that shit like usual.
What do you want? I'm acknowledging that the justice system unfairly treats black people, which is the real issue here.
I wan't you to not say what you did, not edit into a more palatable racist comment.
Just so I'm clear how did you acknowledge that the justice system unfairly treats black people?
I've acknowledged as such probably half a dozen times over the past 24 hours in this thread.
Regardless, I'm still going to call out the ridiculousness that is the black community hanging their grievance hat on the Michael Brown case. My ultimate point is that the black community is defeating itself here.
A minority of the black community is giving people like you all the ammunition they need to dismiss the righteous outrage of the majority and claim "I don't know if there are any sane people in the black community" and think it isn't a bigoted, racist, comment.
So to that degree you are right, but talking about the 'black community' as if they all fit your narrative is ridiculous.
Again, feel free to point out who's not part of this narrative (and I'm perfectly willing to accept that there are those who don't fit into it). Your arguments in this thread certainly fit right in there.
On November 26 2014 09:11 Sub40APM wrote: [quote] The way you formulated that sentence is actually outright racist.
Whoops, I didn't even notice that.
Please tell us what you meant to say?
Here's my edit:
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community).
In other words, I don't know if there are any black people who agree that Wilson should have been acquitted but still desire to challenge the justice system. I'd think that they're out there somewhere, but they sure as hell aren't being heard.
Still seems like a racist statement to me, but with the only other black person opining on the issue temp banned, while you don't even get warned for saying what you said before or after the edit, I'll just keep my mouth shut and just take that shit like usual.
What do you want? I'm acknowledging that the justice system unfairly treats black people, which is the real issue here.
I wan't you to not say what you did, not edit into a more palatable racist comment.
Just so I'm clear how did you acknowledge that the justice system unfairly treats black people?
I've acknowledged as such probably half a dozen times over the past 24 hours in this thread.
Regardless, I'm still going to call out the ridiculousness that is the black community hanging their grievance hat on the Michael Brown case. My ultimate point is that the black community is defeating itself here.
A minority of the black community is giving people like you all the ammunition they need to dismiss the righteous outrage of the majority and claim "I don't know if there are any sane people in the black community" and think it isn't a bigoted, racist, comment.
So to that degree you are right, but talking about the 'black community' as if they all fit your narrative is ridiculous.
Again, feel free to point out who's not part of this narrative (and I'm perfectly willing to accept that there are those who don't). Your arguments in this thread certainly fit right in there.
Well you can start with every black conservative? I'm sure you had to have heard one of them? Ben Carson maybe? He was on a national TV show...?
"Willing to accept" as if it wasn't already known to anyone who cared to listen...
On November 26 2014 08:35 Nyxisto wrote: [quote] That's a very healthy attitude to have personally but the effects of discrimination are pretty evident. Native Americans are another group in the US that has a lot of problems. Or Muslims in Germany, France or Russia. It's not rocket science. Marginalized minorities face socio-economic problems all over the world, often proportionate to the degree of discrimination they have experienced, completely independent from what cultural attitudes they share or don't.
no dispute that they face problems, but how they deal with them determines how their futures will develop. want to know another marginalized minority group in america? japanese. the U.S. government put them in camps, stole all of their lands and belongings and generally did bad shit to them. the U.S. government had propaganda material for the sole purpose of making it easier for americans to kill japanese (we were at war of course). all within the last century. how are the japanese doing in the modern day? pretty damn well. people use race as a crutch too often.
Are you really comparing the Japanese to an entire race of people from different backgrounds with different levels of treatment in America for long periods of time? :/
Don't even know why that racist pos xdaunt is allowed to post here.
you seem to be unfamiliar with the anti-asian sentiment in america, including the de facto slavery of chinese/japanese. USA has a neat ability to hate everyone and fuck them all in the asses when it comes to civil rights.
and what point are you trying to make? equality and fairness arent things one should need to fight for, they are basic rights.
you can sit back and wait for people to give you something, or you can take it. thats the point as previously stated:
no dispute that they face problems, but how they deal with them determines how their futures will develop.
thats just a nicer way of victim blaiming. the try to deal with the problems as well as they can, but it seemingly doesnt work out. not the victims, but the opressing party has the responsibility to change the status quo.
or, to be more positive, why do you think did it work out for the japanese, and not for the black community?
As racist as this may sound, but Japanese attitudes towards work culture, education, and money played probably the largest role in it.
Ya, that actually is in fact racist because it ignores the actual outcomes in the Asian community and replaces them with an idealization of Asians. http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/06/19/the-rise-of-asian-americans/ For example, if we look at the numbers you may be surprised to find that Filipinos and Indians are much better off than average Americans, outperforming both Chinese and Japanese, Koreans are the worst performing of the statistically significant groups, merely touching the American median.
When people bring up Japanese concentration camps (130,000 total interred) and Chinese railroad slaves (their numbers decimated by the Chinese Exclusion Act) they are right to point that American racism is all pervasive, but those two groups -- as a percentage of the current Asian population is minuscule. The 20th century arrivals simply dwarf them out statistically, and those arrivals essentially represent some of the best members of their respective communities. What you see when you see the vast majority of Asians are recent, 60 years or so, immigrants who represent a selected demographic of their homelands. Just as African immigrants from Africa also tend to hold a disproportionate level of education vs their home countries.
Comparing them to blacks would only be fair if we scooped up the top 20% of all African Americans -- among whom the vast majority would be holders of at least a bachelor degree and posses asset wealth similar to an average Asian family if we cut out the hyper-superior Indian-Americans.
None of which describes any of the phenomenon regarding the significant socio-economic ladder of the Japanese and African Americans.
Yes, it actually does. Because most Japanese Americans arrived to the -- at least those who are in the continental -- United States in the last 50 years most of them are not representative of a broad demographic that would encapsulate an underclass as well. Instead a significant amount of Japanese-American immigrants arrive here either with a high education or on the path to high education, so their children are also socialized into a specific system of outlook towards education. If we either look at Asian arrivals who came here in waves that included an underclass -- Hmong or Khmer or Laotians fleeing conflict in the Vietnam war -- their educational and economic achievements also lag behind the median American. Or we can do it the other way and select an 'immigrant' cohort of blacks and find that those blacks are also high achievers.
EPT
