In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
That's a very healthy attitude to have personally but the effects of discrimination are pretty evident. Native Americans are another group in the US that has a lot of problems. Or Muslims in Germany, France or Russia. It's not rocket science. Marginalized minorities face socio-economic problems all over the world, often proportionate to the degree of discrimination they have experienced, completely independent from what cultural attitudes they share or don't.
no dispute that they face problems, but how they deal with them determines how their futures will develop. want to know another marginalized minority group in america? japanese. the U.S. government put them in camps, stole all of their lands and belongings and generally did bad shit to them. the U.S. government had propaganda material for the sole purpose of making it easier for americans to kill japanese (we were at war of course). all within the last century. how are the japanese doing in the modern day? pretty damn well. people use race as a crutch too often.
Are you really comparing the Japanese to an entire race of people from different backgrounds with different levels of treatment in America for long periods of time? :/
Don't even know why that racist pos xdaunt is allowed to post here.
The rioters and the protesters are two different groups as was evidenced by the multiple protests (for the same overarching reasons) that had no violence or looting all over the country.
Constantly conflating all of the protesters/discontent with the rioters who took advantage of an otherwise occupied police force is getting sickening. Pretending that there weren't/aren't people constantly trying to bring to light the underlying issues and saying that 'everything gets pinned on this case or that' is just bullshit.
People are constantly talking about the real underlying issues but no one is listening until a case like this comes up. Then it's all about how 'well that's not what happened here, we're not talking about in general'
So you can't talk about it in general because it's 'playing the race card' or some other bs, then when a case like this comes up you can't talk about the general underlying problems because they don't fit the ratings magnet coverage template of talking only about the specifics of a certain case.
So then everyone pays attention to how Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton is talking about the issues instead of the countless other people who are working on these things every day.
That's a very healthy attitude to have personally but the effects of discrimination are pretty evident. Native Americans are another group in the US that has a lot of problems. Or Muslims in Germany, France or Russia. It's not rocket science. Marginalized minorities face socio-economic problems all over the world, often proportionate to the degree of discrimination they have experienced, completely independent from what cultural attitudes they share or don't.
no dispute that they face problems, but how they deal with them determines how their futures will develop. want to know another marginalized minority group in america? japanese. the U.S. government put them in camps, stole all of their lands and belongings and generally did bad shit to them. the U.S. government had propaganda material for the sole purpose of making it easier for americans to kill japanese (we were at war of course). all within the last century. how are the japanese doing in the modern day? pretty damn well. people use race as a crutch too often.
Frankly, the response of the black activist community to the grand jury's decision not to indict Wilson tells us all we need to know about the black community's utter failure at introspection and refusal to hold itself at all accountable for its circumstances.
It's also a problem of terrible choices in leadership as well. They let themselves get roused and caroled by these showman, rather than picking thoughtful leaders that actually want to get things done for them. Sounds a hell of a lot like the relationship between the conservatives and their choice in leaders.
On November 26 2014 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote: The rioters and the protesters are two different groups as was evidenced by the multiple protests (for the same overarching reasons) that had no violence or looting all over the country.
Constantly conflating all of the protesters/discontent with the rioters who took advantage of an otherwise occupied police force is getting sickening. Pretending that there weren't/aren't people constantly trying to bring to light the underlying issues and saying that 'everything gets pinned on this case or that' is just bullshit.
People are constantly talking about the real underlying issues but no one is listening until a case like this comes up. Then it's all about how 'well that's not what happened here, we're not talking about in general'
So you can't talk about it in general because it's 'playing the race card' or some other bs, then when a case like this comes up you can't talk about the general underlying problems because they don't fit the ratings magnet coverage template of talking only about the specifics of a certain case.
So then everyone pays attention to how Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton is talking about the issues instead of the countless other people who are working on these things every day.
Probably the best summation of the issue I've seen. If I could give reps for this I would. Thanks to the people that are posting that understand this is an issue with multiple avenues bigger than "well what are the black community leaders doing?!"
That's a very healthy attitude to have personally but the effects of discrimination are pretty evident. Native Americans are another group in the US that has a lot of problems. Or Muslims in Germany, France or Russia. It's not rocket science. Marginalized minorities face socio-economic problems all over the world, often proportionate to the degree of discrimination they have experienced, completely independent from what cultural attitudes they share or don't.
no dispute that they face problems, but how they deal with them determines how their futures will develop. want to know another marginalized minority group in america? japanese. the U.S. government put them in camps, stole all of their lands and belongings and generally did bad shit to them. the U.S. government had propaganda material for the sole purpose of making it easier for americans to kill japanese (we were at war of course). all within the last century. how are the japanese doing in the modern day? pretty damn well. people use race as a crutch too often.
Are you really comparing the Japanese to an entire race of people from different backgrounds with different levels of treatment in America for long periods of time? :/
Don't even know why that racist pos xdaunt is allowed to post here.
you seem to be unfamiliar with the anti-asian sentiment in america, including the de facto slavery of chinese/japanese. USA has a neat ability to hate everyone and fuck them all in the asses when it comes to civil rights.
On November 26 2014 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote: The rioters and the protesters are two different groups as was evidenced by the multiple protests (for the same overarching reasons) that had no violence or looting all over the country.
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community).
On November 26 2014 07:51 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: gun culture + racial tension.
the 2nd amendment causes more trouble than anything else imo.
but its a constitutional right so what can you do...
Also not really applicable since it was the police. Maybe not pinning all racial injustice on a case where not a lot of racial injustice took place.
more people with guns = more threat to police = police quicker to use deadly force.
idk, cops are pretty slow to use deadly force in peaceful but well-armed rural areas.
Might have more to do with the whiteness of the rural areas than the well-armedness. Since you haven't exactly provided any statistics to back your assertion it's kind of difficult to respond with any concrete evidence, but I think there's enough anecdotal evidence (example: John Crawford Walmart shooting) to show that police can on occasion be quite quick to use deadly force.
The issue is that the bar seems to be whether or not the police feel threatened, as opposed to whether or not a threat actually existed. In John Crawford's case he was gunned down while on the phone holding an air gun he'd picked up off the shelf of the Walmart he was standing in. He had in no way shape or form committed a crime. However, an overzealous citizen believing him to be a threat made up lies that he was aiming his gun at patrons (video evidence contradicted this). When the police showed up they ordered him to drop his gun and within 2 seconds of the order had opened fire and fatally wounding him. The police report said he turned towards them threateningly. The video evidence showed that he had barely even looked towards them before he was shot.
Despite the fact that he had provided incorrect information in the filed report the police officer was not indicted. It was determined that despite there never actually being a crime or a real threat, it was reasonable to presume that the officer felt threatened. Also it was noted that the officer recently received training that emphasized quick response to active shooters for some unknown reason, as Crawford wasn't an active shooter. This justification for action clearly hurts a segment of our population which have been shown to make people on average feel threatened. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a higher level of accountability from our police officers. And if this means we need to spend more money to give them better training and make it more commensurate with the extremely high level of responsibility and risk which they carry, so be it.
On November 26 2014 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote: The rioters and the protesters are two different groups as was evidenced by the multiple protests (for the same overarching reasons) that had no violence or looting all over the country.
Constantly conflating all of the protesters/discontent with the rioters who took advantage of an otherwise occupied police force is getting sickening. Pretending that there weren't/aren't people constantly trying to bring to light the underlying issues and saying that 'everything gets pinned on this case or that' is just bullshit.
People are constantly talking about the real underlying issues but no one is listening until a case like this comes up. Then it's all about how 'well that's not what happened here, we're not talking about in general'
So you can't talk about it in general because it's 'playing the race card' or some other bs, then when a case like this comes up you can't talk about the general underlying problems because they don't fit the ratings magnet coverage template of talking only about the specifics of a certain case.
So then everyone pays attention to how Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton is talking about the issues instead of the countless other people who are working on these things every day.
Probably the best summation of the issue I've seen. If I could give reps for this I would. Thanks to the people that are posting that understand this is an issue with multiple avenues bigger than "well what are the black community leaders doing?!"
Maybe it's hard to see it since it's in current times, and it's much easier to summarize due to hind sight, but the Civil Rights movement had clear leadership in multiple avenues of approach that were all upstanding leaders. MLK Jr, and the non violent protests, and you had Malcolm X and Black Panther movement, etc etc. We simply don't see that from the African American community.
That's a very healthy attitude to have personally but the effects of discrimination are pretty evident. Native Americans are another group in the US that has a lot of problems. Or Muslims in Germany, France or Russia. It's not rocket science. Marginalized minorities face socio-economic problems all over the world, often proportionate to the degree of discrimination they have experienced, completely independent from what cultural attitudes they share or don't.
no dispute that they face problems, but how they deal with them determines how their futures will develop. want to know another marginalized minority group in america? japanese. the U.S. government put them in camps, stole all of their lands and belongings and generally did bad shit to them. the U.S. government had propaganda material for the sole purpose of making it easier for americans to kill japanese (we were at war of course). all within the last century. how are the japanese doing in the modern day? pretty damn well. people use race as a crutch too often.
Are you really comparing the Japanese to an entire race of people from different backgrounds with different levels of treatment in America for long periods of time? :/
Don't even know why that racist pos xdaunt is allowed to post here.
you seem to be unfamiliar with the anti-asian sentiment in america, including the de facto slavery of chinese/japanese. USA has a neat ability to hate everyone and fuck them all in the asses when it comes to civil rights.
and what point are you trying to make? equality and fairness arent things one should need to fight for, they are basic rights.
That's a very healthy attitude to have personally but the effects of discrimination are pretty evident. Native Americans are another group in the US that has a lot of problems. Or Muslims in Germany, France or Russia. It's not rocket science. Marginalized minorities face socio-economic problems all over the world, often proportionate to the degree of discrimination they have experienced, completely independent from what cultural attitudes they share or don't.
no dispute that they face problems, but how they deal with them determines how their futures will develop. want to know another marginalized minority group in america? japanese. the U.S. government put them in camps, stole all of their lands and belongings and generally did bad shit to them. the U.S. government had propaganda material for the sole purpose of making it easier for americans to kill japanese (we were at war of course). all within the last century. how are the japanese doing in the modern day? pretty damn well. people use race as a crutch too often.
Are you really comparing the Japanese to an entire race of people from different backgrounds with different levels of treatment in America for long periods of time? :/
Don't even know why that racist pos xdaunt is allowed to post here.
you seem to be unfamiliar with the anti-asian sentiment in america, including the de facto slavery of chinese/japanese. USA has a neat ability to hate everyone and fuck them all in the asses when it comes to civil rights.
I may not be but how are the situations even comparable? The situations are not parallel at all so asking why one group is in one place and the other isn't doesn't really matter.
highly dismaying to see the riot reaction in large part because of the predictable caricaturing and diversion it will cause. instead of showing comfortable and oblivious white people that there is still deep racial injustice and problems in this country, we will have sensationalist focus on the looting.
obama should really do his job here and lay out some policy proposals to get the conversation back on track. his shit about accepting the decision is laughably aloof and really may become iconic for this presidency.
That's a very healthy attitude to have personally but the effects of discrimination are pretty evident. Native Americans are another group in the US that has a lot of problems. Or Muslims in Germany, France or Russia. It's not rocket science. Marginalized minorities face socio-economic problems all over the world, often proportionate to the degree of discrimination they have experienced, completely independent from what cultural attitudes they share or don't.
no dispute that they face problems, but how they deal with them determines how their futures will develop. want to know another marginalized minority group in america? japanese. the U.S. government put them in camps, stole all of their lands and belongings and generally did bad shit to them. the U.S. government had propaganda material for the sole purpose of making it easier for americans to kill japanese (we were at war of course). all within the last century. how are the japanese doing in the modern day? pretty damn well. people use race as a crutch too often.
Are you really comparing the Japanese to an entire race of people from different backgrounds with different levels of treatment in America for long periods of time? :/
Don't even know why that racist pos xdaunt is allowed to post here.
you seem to be unfamiliar with the anti-asian sentiment in america, including the de facto slavery of chinese/japanese. USA has a neat ability to hate everyone and fuck them all in the asses when it comes to civil rights.
and what point are you trying to make? equality and fairness arent things one should need to fight for, they are basic rights.
you can sit back and wait for people to give you something, or you can take it. thats the point as previously stated:
no dispute that they face problems, but how they deal with them determines how their futures will develop.
On November 26 2014 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote: The rioters and the protesters are two different groups as was evidenced by the multiple protests (for the same overarching reasons) that had no violence or looting all over the country.
Constantly conflating all of the protesters/discontent with the rioters who took advantage of an otherwise occupied police force is getting sickening. Pretending that there weren't/aren't people constantly trying to bring to light the underlying issues and saying that 'everything gets pinned on this case or that' is just bullshit.
People are constantly talking about the real underlying issues but no one is listening until a case like this comes up. Then it's all about how 'well that's not what happened here, we're not talking about in general'
So you can't talk about it in general because it's 'playing the race card' or some other bs, then when a case like this comes up you can't talk about the general underlying problems because they don't fit the ratings magnet coverage template of talking only about the specifics of a certain case.
So then everyone pays attention to how Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton is talking about the issues instead of the countless other people who are working on these things every day.
Probably the best summation of the issue I've seen. If I could give reps for this I would. Thanks to the people that are posting that understand this is an issue with multiple avenues bigger than "well what are the black community leaders doing?!"
Maybe it's hard to see it since it's in current times, and it's much easier to summarize due to hind sight, but the Civil Rights movement had clear leadership in multiple avenues of approach that were all upstanding leaders. MLK Jr, and the non violent protests, and you had Malcolm X and Black Panther movement, etc etc. We simply don't see that from the African American community.
Yeah whatever happened to MLK and Malcolm X? Why aren't they leading?!
The only sane people (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community)
LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) — A federal judge struck down Arkansas' gay marriage ban on Tuesday, which could pave the way for county clerks to resume issuing licenses.
U.S. District Judge Kristine Baker ruled in favor of two same-sex couples who had challenged a 2004 constitutional amendment and earlier state law defining marriage as between a man and a woman, arguing that the ban violated the U.S. Constitution and discriminated based on sexual orientation.
But Baker put her ruling on hold, and the state is expected to appeal it to the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals, based in St. Louis.
The ruling comes as the state Supreme Court weighs a separate case challenging the ban. Justices are weighing whether to uphold Pulaski County Circuit Judge Chris Piazza's decision in May striking down the 2004 amendment and earlier state law as unconstitutional. Piazza's decision led to 541 same sex couples getting married in the week before the state Supreme Court suspended his ruling.
Justices have not indicated when they will rule in that case. The lawsuit before the state Supreme Court also argues the ban violates Arkansas' constitution.
On November 26 2014 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote: The rioters and the protesters are two different groups as was evidenced by the multiple protests (for the same overarching reasons) that had no violence or looting all over the country.
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community) are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system.
The way you formulated that sentence is actually outright racist.
On November 26 2014 09:05 oneofthem wrote:
obama should really do his job here and lay out some policy proposals to get the conversation back on track. his shit about accepting the decision is laughably aloof and really may become iconic for this presidency.
Actually, I think Obama's approach on Black issues is part of a natural black-conservative (not black Republican, but I mean black-conservative as a political thought system) response to the black position. They acknowledge that (a) they are getting fucked but (b) believe that its up to the blacks to become twice as good as the whites. Here is Obama at Morehouse (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/05/how-the-obama-administration-talks-to-black-america/276015/); which falls in with Cosby-before-he-was-disgraced (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_Cake_speech, http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/05/-this-is-how-we-lost-to-the-white-man/306774/)
On November 26 2014 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote: The rioters and the protesters are two different groups as was evidenced by the multiple protests (for the same overarching reasons) that had no violence or looting all over the country.
Constantly conflating all of the protesters/discontent with the rioters who took advantage of an otherwise occupied police force is getting sickening. Pretending that there weren't/aren't people constantly trying to bring to light the underlying issues and saying that 'everything gets pinned on this case or that' is just bullshit.
People are constantly talking about the real underlying issues but no one is listening until a case like this comes up. Then it's all about how 'well that's not what happened here, we're not talking about in general'
So you can't talk about it in general because it's 'playing the race card' or some other bs, then when a case like this comes up you can't talk about the general underlying problems because they don't fit the ratings magnet coverage template of talking only about the specifics of a certain case.
So then everyone pays attention to how Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton is talking about the issues instead of the countless other people who are working on these things every day.
Probably the best summation of the issue I've seen. If I could give reps for this I would. Thanks to the people that are posting that understand this is an issue with multiple avenues bigger than "well what are the black community leaders doing?!"
Maybe it's hard to see it since it's in current times, and it's much easier to summarize due to hind sight, but the Civil Rights movement had clear leadership in multiple avenues of approach that were all upstanding leaders. MLK Jr, and the non violent protests, and you had Malcolm X and Black Panther movement, etc etc. We simply don't see that from the African American community.
Yeah whatever happened to MLK and Malcolm X? Why aren't they leading?!
Still does not explain the lack of strong modern leadership for minorities.
On November 26 2014 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote: The rioters and the protesters are two different groups as was evidenced by the multiple protests (for the same overarching reasons) that had no violence or looting all over the country.
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community) are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system.
The way you formulated that sentence is actually outright racist.
On November 26 2014 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote: The rioters and the protesters are two different groups as was evidenced by the multiple protests (for the same overarching reasons) that had no violence or looting all over the country.
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community) are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system.
The way you formulated that sentence is actually outright racist.
Whoops, I didn't even notice that.
I read it, but rather than think you're a racist, I just read it as sane in regards to the events that unfolded in Ferguson.
On November 26 2014 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote: The rioters and the protesters are two different groups as was evidenced by the multiple protests (for the same overarching reasons) that had no violence or looting all over the country.
This dichotomy doesn't matter much as far as my point is concerned. It's only a matter of degree. Anyone who is protesting or rioting over this decision is simply being dishonest with themselves. The only sane people (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community) are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system.
The way you formulated that sentence is actually outright racist.
EPT
