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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
Oamacare got taken for a roller-coaster ride on Tuesday when two different appeals courts took completely different takes on the latest challenges to the law.
In a potentially lethal blow, a federal appeals court in Washington, D.C. ruled that the federal government may not subsidize health insurance plans for people in 34 states that decided not to set up their own marketplaces under the law.
But the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Richmond took the opposite point of view, saying the subsidies are legal.
Source
LOL
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On July 23 2014 02:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:what's the real problem in this case? I mean from my perspective it'd be draconian drug laws combined with a culture of wealth-glorification combined with gross systematic inequality making crime the only perceivably realistic way for many to have a shot at achieving the american dream and thus a feeling of self worth combined with your population having a particularly vengeful mindset, but I'm not sure you agree with my analysis nor with all of that being problematic.  for what it's worth though I agree that if those factors were fixed private prisons would not by themselves be problematic - private rehabilitation centers don't strike me as particularly problematic and some prisons could certainly be that.
Yet little other nations in the world have the problems you describe (which I mostly agree with btw) and yet no where else on earth does a government make use of private prisons.
Several have tried and all of them have returned to state control. Private prisons simply do not work, their agenda's do not line up with societies goals of a prison.
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On July 23 2014 02:16 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +Oamacare got taken for a roller-coaster ride on Tuesday when two different appeals courts took completely different takes on the latest challenges to the law.
In a potentially lethal blow, a federal appeals court in Washington, D.C. ruled that the federal government may not subsidize health insurance plans for people in 34 states that decided not to set up their own marketplaces under the law.
But the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Richmond took the opposite point of view, saying the subsidies are legal. SourceLOL
All this means is that it will go up to the Supreme Court again.
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On July 23 2014 02:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:what's the real problem in this case? I mean from my perspective it'd be draconian drug laws combined with a culture of wealth-glorification combined with gross systematic inequality making crime the only perceivably realistic way for many to have a shot at achieving the american dream and thus a feeling of self worth combined with your population having a particularly vengeful mindset, but I'm not sure you agree with my analysis nor with all of that being problematic. for what it's worth though I agree that if those factors were fixed private prisons would not by themselves be problematic - private rehabilitation centers don't strike me as particularly problematic and some prisons could certainly be that.
The inequality argument doesn't seem to hold water. Crime has been falling for a decade plus and prison populations have been falling for a few - all in the face of higher inequality.
Tough drug laws and lack of mental healthcare are the culprits.
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On July 23 2014 02:17 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 02:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:what's the real problem in this case? I mean from my perspective it'd be draconian drug laws combined with a culture of wealth-glorification combined with gross systematic inequality making crime the only perceivably realistic way for many to have a shot at achieving the american dream and thus a feeling of self worth combined with your population having a particularly vengeful mindset, but I'm not sure you agree with my analysis nor with all of that being problematic. for what it's worth though I agree that if those factors were fixed private prisons would not by themselves be problematic - private rehabilitation centers don't strike me as particularly problematic and some prisons could certainly be that. Yet little other nations in the world have the problems you describe (which I mostly agree with btw) and yet no where else on earth does a government make use of private prisons.Several have tried and all of them have returned to state control. Private prisons simply do not work, their agenda's do not line up with societies goals of a prison.
Do you have a source on that? Google comes up with other countries for me:
![[image loading]](https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQJoLTtm42eAVYdvor0KGRh3aG_JuJ9AirdGbcsAYijDW9qNEd0)
Source
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On July 23 2014 02:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 02:17 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2014 02:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:what's the real problem in this case? I mean from my perspective it'd be draconian drug laws combined with a culture of wealth-glorification combined with gross systematic inequality making crime the only perceivably realistic way for many to have a shot at achieving the american dream and thus a feeling of self worth combined with your population having a particularly vengeful mindset, but I'm not sure you agree with my analysis nor with all of that being problematic. for what it's worth though I agree that if those factors were fixed private prisons would not by themselves be problematic - private rehabilitation centers don't strike me as particularly problematic and some prisons could certainly be that. Yet little other nations in the world have the problems you describe (which I mostly agree with btw) and yet no where else on earth does a government make use of private prisons.Several have tried and all of them have returned to state control. Private prisons simply do not work, their agenda's do not line up with societies goals of a prison. Do you have a source on that? Google comes up with other countries for me: Source
Those numbers should be multiplied by the % or total number of the population incarcerated to get an idea of what fraction of incarceration is privately held/ operated.
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On July 23 2014 01:57 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 01:03 farvacola wrote:On July 23 2014 01:01 EmilA wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, but is it really possible to buy private prison stock? Like, is it publicly traded? Yes, two of the largest prison organizations, the Geo group and the CCA, are publicly traded and actually include the supposed benefit of "high recidivism" in their investor prospecti. No joke. If you're talking about the HBO clip, it was a reference to high recidivism in the US not high recidivism specific to CCA.
Can't you see that doesn't matter? They are saying high recidivism rates are good... No public prison would ever suggest high recidivism rates are good...
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On July 23 2014 02:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 01:57 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 23 2014 01:03 farvacola wrote:On July 23 2014 01:01 EmilA wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, but is it really possible to buy private prison stock? Like, is it publicly traded? Yes, two of the largest prison organizations, the Geo group and the CCA, are publicly traded and actually include the supposed benefit of "high recidivism" in their investor prospecti. No joke. If you're talking about the HBO clip, it was a reference to high recidivism in the US not high recidivism specific to CCA. Can't you see that doesn't matter? They are saying high recidivism rates are good... No public prison would ever suggest high recidivism rates are good...
Yes they would. The numbers work the same way for a public prison. If you're considering building a new prison, high recidivism rates are a "good thing" because it means that your prison population is stable and the construction project won't be a waste.
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On July 23 2014 02:35 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 02:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2014 01:57 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 23 2014 01:03 farvacola wrote:On July 23 2014 01:01 EmilA wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, but is it really possible to buy private prison stock? Like, is it publicly traded? Yes, two of the largest prison organizations, the Geo group and the CCA, are publicly traded and actually include the supposed benefit of "high recidivism" in their investor prospecti. No joke. If you're talking about the HBO clip, it was a reference to high recidivism in the US not high recidivism specific to CCA. Can't you see that doesn't matter? They are saying high recidivism rates are good... No public prison would ever suggest high recidivism rates are good... Yes they would. The numbers work the same way for a public prison. If you're considering building a new prison, high recidivism rates are a "good thing" because it means that your prison population is stable and the construction project won't be a waste.
...and it's not like the federal government requires publicly traded companies to publicly report on factors that affect the demand of their goods and services. Oh wait.
EDIT: Let's just cut to the chase. For the most part, Liberals complaining about public prisons is just one more example of them complaining about a "problem" that they don't even really understand. If you object to such a function being privatized on moral grounds, fine, but let's not pretend that the privatization itself is the real social problem.
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Norway28924 Posts
On July 23 2014 02:17 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 02:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:what's the real problem in this case? I mean from my perspective it'd be draconian drug laws combined with a culture of wealth-glorification combined with gross systematic inequality making crime the only perceivably realistic way for many to have a shot at achieving the american dream and thus a feeling of self worth combined with your population having a particularly vengeful mindset, but I'm not sure you agree with my analysis nor with all of that being problematic. for what it's worth though I agree that if those factors were fixed private prisons would not by themselves be problematic - private rehabilitation centers don't strike me as particularly problematic and some prisons could certainly be that. Yet little other nations in the world have the problems you describe (which I mostly agree with btw) and yet no where else on earth does a government make use of private prisons. Several have tried and all of them have returned to state control. Private prisons simply do not work, their agenda's do not line up with societies goals of a prison.
see, it's like, most countries still have their prisons being prisons. And then yeah, I agree. and it's like, I generally don't understand the notion that private should somehow always be better than public (during the past 20 years of increased privatization in Norway, there certainly hasn't been an across the board improvement tied to this - although in certain areas like telecommunications it has yielded very positive results).
But I just picture the ideal prison more like bastøy prison, and when prisons to a larger degree turn into rehabilitation centres/ "not-fascist re-educational centers", then I think having a selection of different prisons that can be geared towards different types of offenders, kind of like how private schools can offer a different pedagogical method, is a way to have private prisons without it automatically becoming some gross human rights violation.
I think a lot of it boils down to the "for profit" aspect more than whether it's "private". Of course it's hugely problematic if you have private prisons with political power and the desire for more crime/criminals because society as a whole desires the opposite and as politics should be a way to improve society then you don't want political entities pushing in the opposite direction.. But if you have private prisons that operate without bonuses, with fixed incomes, basically that are just institutions established by individuals who want to offer a slightly different method of rehabilitation than what is the norm within the public institutions because they feel that this can be beneficial to some percentage of inmates, then hell, I don't just "not object that terribly", I can even see how it'd be societally beneficial. I'm obviously well aware that this is not how private (nor public) prisons in the US operate, and I do think that the private prisons in US combined with lobbying is a principal problem, but private prisons are not the reason why american crime, incarceration and recidivism rates are so absurdly high.
You could argue that the acceptance of private prisons is indicative of the type of mentality problem which is the real issue at hand, but I'd need convincing to agree that american private prisons actually make any type of significant dent in the crime, incarceration or recidivism rates.
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On July 23 2014 02:35 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 02:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2014 01:57 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 23 2014 01:03 farvacola wrote:On July 23 2014 01:01 EmilA wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, but is it really possible to buy private prison stock? Like, is it publicly traded? Yes, two of the largest prison organizations, the Geo group and the CCA, are publicly traded and actually include the supposed benefit of "high recidivism" in their investor prospecti. No joke. If you're talking about the HBO clip, it was a reference to high recidivism in the US not high recidivism specific to CCA. Can't you see that doesn't matter? They are saying high recidivism rates are good... No public prison would ever suggest high recidivism rates are good... Yes they would. The numbers work the same way for a public prison. If you're considering building a new prison, high recidivism rates are a "good thing" because it means that your prison population is stable and the construction project won't be a waste.
Yes but the public doesn't 'want' to build new prisons. Building prisons is a bad thing, that we should only do because we have no other reasonable alternative, not because we see an opportunity to use draconian laws to create free labor forces and turn a profit.
A stable prison population is yet another thing that is good for private business (as well as a growing population) where as a declining population is a sign of success for public prisons.
I don't know why you are so bent on making public prisons and private prisons seem the same when they obviously are not?
The fundamental bottom line is that a private prison system is more successful (profitable) when we put more people in prison regardless of whether they should be there or not. The public prison system is successful when we keep people from going there, and if they end up there, we give them the opportunities necessary to avoid coming back.
It's very basic and should not be so hard to understand such a fundamental difference.
As Xdaunt said we would all be better off if private prisons were out of business, except the prison lobby who would fight with everything they had to keep their industry from dying even if it meant lobbying for new laws to send people to prison for things none/only the most ignorant of us wanted people to go to prison for (see drug laws and kid in prison for 20 years for a half oz of pot)
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Norway28924 Posts
On July 23 2014 02:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 02:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:what's the real problem in this case? I mean from my perspective it'd be draconian drug laws combined with a culture of wealth-glorification combined with gross systematic inequality making crime the only perceivably realistic way for many to have a shot at achieving the american dream and thus a feeling of self worth combined with your population having a particularly vengeful mindset, but I'm not sure you agree with my analysis nor with all of that being problematic. for what it's worth though I agree that if those factors were fixed private prisons would not by themselves be problematic - private rehabilitation centers don't strike me as particularly problematic and some prisons could certainly be that. The inequality argument doesn't seem to hold water. Crime has been falling for a decade plus and prison populations have been falling for a few - all in the face of higher inequality. Tough drug laws and lack of mental healthcare are the culprits.
I don't think crime falling for a decade and inequality rising means that there is no connection by default? Couldn't it just be that there are other factors counteracting it? Hypothetically, if education is the biggest factor in keeping kids out of jail and schools keep performing better and better, then inequality could be on the rise, crime could be on the downfall, and there could still be a connection between inequality and crime.
Anyway, I don't think inequality by itself is that big of a catalyst for crime, but I think that inequality combined with wealth glorification, especially with other cultural components like alienation from mainstream society, can be (and in the US, is) a significant contributor..
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On July 23 2014 02:45 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 02:35 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 23 2014 02:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2014 01:57 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 23 2014 01:03 farvacola wrote:On July 23 2014 01:01 EmilA wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, but is it really possible to buy private prison stock? Like, is it publicly traded? Yes, two of the largest prison organizations, the Geo group and the CCA, are publicly traded and actually include the supposed benefit of "high recidivism" in their investor prospecti. No joke. If you're talking about the HBO clip, it was a reference to high recidivism in the US not high recidivism specific to CCA. Can't you see that doesn't matter? They are saying high recidivism rates are good... No public prison would ever suggest high recidivism rates are good... Yes they would. The numbers work the same way for a public prison. If you're considering building a new prison, high recidivism rates are a "good thing" because it means that your prison population is stable and the construction project won't be a waste. Yes but the public doesn't 'want' to build new prisons. Building prisons is a bad thing, that we should only do because we have no other reasonable alternative, not because we see an opportunity to use draconian laws to create free labor forces and turn a profit. A stable prison population is yet another thing that is good for private business (as well as a growing population) where as a declining population is a sign of success for public prisons. I don't know why you are so bent on making public prisons and private prisons seem the same when they obviously are not?
Still true after using private prisons. Reality hasn't changed!
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On July 23 2014 02:50 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 02:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 23 2014 02:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:what's the real problem in this case? I mean from my perspective it'd be draconian drug laws combined with a culture of wealth-glorification combined with gross systematic inequality making crime the only perceivably realistic way for many to have a shot at achieving the american dream and thus a feeling of self worth combined with your population having a particularly vengeful mindset, but I'm not sure you agree with my analysis nor with all of that being problematic. for what it's worth though I agree that if those factors were fixed private prisons would not by themselves be problematic - private rehabilitation centers don't strike me as particularly problematic and some prisons could certainly be that. The inequality argument doesn't seem to hold water. Crime has been falling for a decade plus and prison populations have been falling for a few - all in the face of higher inequality. Tough drug laws and lack of mental healthcare are the culprits. I don't think crime falling for a decade and inequality rising means that there is no connection by default? Couldn't it just be that there are other factors counteracting it? Hypothetically, if education is the biggest factor in keeping kids out of jail and schools keep performing better and better, then inequality could be on the rise, crime could be on the downfall, and there could still be a connection between inequality and crime. Anyway, I don't think inequality by itself is that big of a catalyst for crime, but I think that inequality combined with wealth glorification, especially with other cultural components like alienation from mainstream society, can be (and in the US, is) a significant contributor..
It's possible that has an effect. I can't say for certain that it doesn't. I don't think it is a big factor though. We probably disagree on what US culture is about anyways.
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Private prison companies want to build as many prisons as possible, and fill those to the brim. They only don't want to build a new prison if that prison would be a net loss because they don't have enough prisoners to fit into it. Thus, they want more prisoners so they can built more prisons and fill those with those prisoners. Because having 2 full prisons is more profit than only having 1 full prison.
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On July 23 2014 02:50 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Anyway, I don't think inequality by itself is that big of a catalyst for crime, but I think that inequality combined with wealth glorification, especially with other cultural components like alienation from mainstream society, can be (and in the US, is) a significant contributor..
I just got back from a week in Hawaii, doesn't get much more exclusive than that! I learned that one of the islands is actually privately owned- if you are not invited by the Robinson family you cannot visit it. Without some of the wealth redistribution measures in place such as the Hawaii Homes Commision Act I can only imagine how bad crime would be there and how desperate and impossible life would be for most of the native islanders.
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On July 23 2014 02:52 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 02:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2014 02:35 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 23 2014 02:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2014 01:57 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 23 2014 01:03 farvacola wrote:On July 23 2014 01:01 EmilA wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, but is it really possible to buy private prison stock? Like, is it publicly traded? Yes, two of the largest prison organizations, the Geo group and the CCA, are publicly traded and actually include the supposed benefit of "high recidivism" in their investor prospecti. No joke. If you're talking about the HBO clip, it was a reference to high recidivism in the US not high recidivism specific to CCA. Can't you see that doesn't matter? They are saying high recidivism rates are good... No public prison would ever suggest high recidivism rates are good... Yes they would. The numbers work the same way for a public prison. If you're considering building a new prison, high recidivism rates are a "good thing" because it means that your prison population is stable and the construction project won't be a waste. Yes but the public doesn't 'want' to build new prisons. Building prisons is a bad thing, that we should only do because we have no other reasonable alternative, not because we see an opportunity to use draconian laws to create free labor forces and turn a profit. A stable prison population is yet another thing that is good for private business (as well as a growing population) where as a declining population is a sign of success for public prisons. I don't know why you are so bent on making public prisons and private prisons seem the same when they obviously are not? Still true after using private prisons. Reality hasn't changed! It reads that when you use private prisons the public doesn't change its mind and suddenly want more prisons.
No the public doesn't, but the prison industry and the shareholders profiting from it do, and that's the fundamental difference. This puts the prison industries motives in direct contrast with the public's.
Combine that with the study that showed when it comes to who influences laws, public opinion finishes last behind rich people and the lobby hobby.
You see that we end up building and filling prisons for profit instead of trying to reduce our need for them.
There is no legitimate reason we should have more people in prison than ANYWHERE in the world, trying to correct that glaring and obvious problem is in direct opposition of the intentions of the private prison industry.
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On July 23 2014 02:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 02:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:what's the real problem in this case? I mean from my perspective it'd be draconian drug laws combined with a culture of wealth-glorification combined with gross systematic inequality making crime the only perceivably realistic way for many to have a shot at achieving the american dream and thus a feeling of self worth combined with your population having a particularly vengeful mindset, but I'm not sure you agree with my analysis nor with all of that being problematic. for what it's worth though I agree that if those factors were fixed private prisons would not by themselves be problematic - private rehabilitation centers don't strike me as particularly problematic and some prisons could certainly be that. The inequality argument doesn't seem to hold water. Crime has been falling for a decade plus and prison populations have been falling for a few - all in the face of higher inequality. Tough drug laws and lack of mental healthcare are the culprits.
![[image loading]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/U.S._incarceration_rates_1925_onwards.png)
Do you really mean to tell me that "the inequality argument doesn't seem to hold water" because prison populations have slightly fallen after going up wildly since the 1970s? You and I are looking at the same graph right? You have a way of using words that is more than a little deceptive. There has been a massive spike followed by a tiny dip and you focus on the tiny dip as the trend line.
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On July 23 2014 02:00 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 01:39 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On July 23 2014 01:33 ticklishmusic wrote:On July 23 2014 01:03 farvacola wrote:On July 23 2014 01:01 EmilA wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, but is it really possible to buy private prison stock? Like, is it publicly traded? Yes, two of the largest prison organizations, the Geo group and the CCA, are publicly traded and actually include the supposed benefit of "high recidivism" in their investor prospecti. No joke. I am a bad person for investing in those companies. But it helps pay for college. :< Yes, you are a bad person.I'm sure many a people went to college on the backs of slaves in the 1800's as well. Which Private Prisons has replaced. This is as stupid as blaming drug companies for profiting off of cancer and other illnesses. Let's not pretend that private prison companies are the problem. If we addressed the real problems, all of the private prison companies would go out of business.
I have a problem with that as well. I think most people would have a problem with a Corporation, or anyone for that matter, profiting of someones misfortune whether it be an illness or an injury. The fact that US spends less on preventive medicine and seems to focus on making Doctors overpaid drug pushers rather than working on people healthy is worrying enough.
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On July 23 2014 03:42 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 02:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 23 2014 02:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:what's the real problem in this case? I mean from my perspective it'd be draconian drug laws combined with a culture of wealth-glorification combined with gross systematic inequality making crime the only perceivably realistic way for many to have a shot at achieving the american dream and thus a feeling of self worth combined with your population having a particularly vengeful mindset, but I'm not sure you agree with my analysis nor with all of that being problematic. for what it's worth though I agree that if those factors were fixed private prisons would not by themselves be problematic - private rehabilitation centers don't strike me as particularly problematic and some prisons could certainly be that. The inequality argument doesn't seem to hold water. Crime has been falling for a decade plus and prison populations have been falling for a few - all in the face of higher inequality. Tough drug laws and lack of mental healthcare are the culprits. Do you really mean to tell me that "the inequality argument doesn't seem to hold water" because prison populations have slightly fallen after going up wildly since the 1970s? You and I are looking at the same graph right? You have a way of using words that is more than a little deceptive. There has been a massive spike followed by a tiny dip and you focus on the tiny dip as the trend line.
That and the fact that much more obvious culprits are to blame - strict drug laws and mental health.
Edit: also, if inequality was a cause, well, the 20's had a lot of inequality too...
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EPT
