In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Private prisons? how is that even legal? This is fucking sad an inhuman. "It's a great investment opportunity because of high recidivism" That is just insane.
What's wrong with private prisons? They don't get to send people to jail, they just collect fees for running the prison.
Have you seen the video? The owners literally claim that their prison is a great investment opportunity because of high recidivism rates. The population wants less prisoners and less crime and low recidivism rates. A for profit prison wants the opposite.
I don't even know why we would need to discuss this. If it wasn't so sad and real it could be straight out of an American Caricature.
From a strictly financial perspective, yes, the for profit prison wants to stay full of prisoners. And guess what? The numbers work exactly the same for a public run prison.
No, because public prisons are not run for profit, they're run to keep the bad guys locked up. If there's no difference between business and government in the US anyway then that's a general problem and has nothing to do with the concept of the public branch. I find it ridiculous that we're seriously having that discussion. It's the 21st century, you don't have people locked up in private, for profit institutions. It's wrong to give anyone who is not the government that authority.
Both public and private prisons keep bad guys locked up in exchange for money. If you think that profit makes a difference, please establish why it makes a difference.
Public prisons are better because ... they're not run for profit? Yes, yes, profits are evil. It's only if you lose money, waste money, and don't care about waste and fraud that makes something noble and untainted. I thought earlier posters were all over a natural distrust of federal bureaucratic solutions, and now there's outright animus against anything that might be done privately and for profit. Double standards abound, it would seem.
Private prisons? how is that even legal? This is fucking sad an inhuman. "It's a great investment opportunity because of high recidivism" That is just insane.
What's wrong with private prisons? They don't get to send people to jail, they just collect fees for running the prison.
Have you seen the video? The owners literally claim that their prison is a great investment opportunity because of high recidivism rates. The population wants less prisoners and less crime and low recidivism rates. A for profit prison wants the opposite.
I don't even know why we would need to discuss this. If it wasn't so sad and real it could be straight out of an American Caricature.
From a strictly financial perspective, yes, the for profit prison wants to stay full of prisoners. And guess what? The numbers work exactly the same for a public run prison.
No, because public prisons are not run for profit, they're run to keep the bad guys locked up. If there's no difference between business and government in the US anyway then that's a general problem and has nothing to do with the concept of the public branch. I find it ridiculous that we're seriously having that discussion. It's the 21st century, you don't have people locked up in private, for profit institutions. It's wrong to give anyone who is not the government that authority.
Both public and private prisons keep bad guys locked up in exchange for money. If you think that profit makes a difference, please establish why it makes a difference.
Private prisons make money from having prisoners.
Therefor they have incentive to work against rehabilitating the prisoners they have, since if they go out, commit another crime and go to jail again the prison makes more money.
Thus, private prisons have a vested interest in people committing more crimes, which kinda goes against the entire purpose of the prison system.
Making profit out of people that have committed crimes is just wrong.
On July 22 2014 07:55 Danglars wrote: Public prisons are better because ... they're not run for profit? Yes, yes, profits are evil. It's only if you lose money, waste money, and don't care about waste and fraud that makes something noble and untainted. I thought earlier posters were all over a natural distrust of federal bureaucratic solutions, and now there's outright animus against anything that might be done privately and for profit. Double standards abound, it would seem.
See and this is the bit where the rest of the world shakes their collective heads are the stupidity of Americans yet again. No profit isn't evil but a private prison has goals beyond just keeping people locked up. They do have to keep profit in mind while public prisons main concern is rehabilitating criminals where possible and detaining those who cannot. The fact you cannot fathom this difference just shows how distorted the public mind has become in the US compared to the rest of the world.
Your the only nation in the world with private prisons, other countries have tried and they all stopped and reverted them to government control. Yes America is different from the rest of the world.... your more stupid.
Private prisons? how is that even legal? This is fucking sad an inhuman. "It's a great investment opportunity because of high recidivism" That is just insane.
What's wrong with private prisons? They don't get to send people to jail, they just collect fees for running the prison.
Have you seen the video? The owners literally claim that their prison is a great investment opportunity because of high recidivism rates. The population wants less prisoners and less crime and low recidivism rates. A for profit prison wants the opposite.
I don't even know why we would need to discuss this. If it wasn't so sad and real it could be straight out of an American Caricature.
From a strictly financial perspective, yes, the for profit prison wants to stay full of prisoners. And guess what? The numbers work exactly the same for a public run prison.
No, because public prisons are not run for profit, they're run to keep the bad guys locked up. If there's no difference between business and government in the US anyway then that's a general problem and has nothing to do with the concept of the public branch. I find it ridiculous that we're seriously having that discussion. It's the 21st century, you don't have people locked up in private, for profit institutions. It's wrong to give anyone who is not the government that authority.
Both public and private prisons keep bad guys locked up in exchange for money. If you think that profit makes a difference, please establish why it makes a difference.
Private prisons make money from having prisoners.
Therefor they have incentive to work against rehabilitating the prisoners they have, since if they go out, commit another crime and go to jail again the prison makes more money.
Thus, private prisons have a vested interest in people committing more crimes, which kinda goes against the entire purpose of the prison system.
Making profit out of people that have committed crimes is just wrong.
The same financial incentive exists for public prisons, police forces and prosecutors.
On July 22 2014 07:55 Danglars wrote: Public prisons are better because ... they're not run for profit? Yes, yes, profits are evil. It's only if you lose money, waste money, and don't care about waste and fraud that makes something noble and untainted. I thought earlier posters were all over a natural distrust of federal bureaucratic solutions, and now there's outright animus against anything that might be done privately and for profit. Double standards abound, it would seem.
See and this is the bit where the rest of the world shakes their collective heads are the stupidity of Americans yet again. No profit isn't evil but a private prison has goals beyond just keeping people locked up. They do have to keep profit in mind while public prisons main concern is rehabilitating criminals where possible and detaining those who cannot. The fact you cannot fathom this difference just shows how distorted the public mind has become in the US compared to the rest of the world.
Your the only nation in the world with private prisons, other countries have tried and they all stopped and reverted them to government control. Yes America is different from the rest of the world.... your more stupid.
There isn't much of a difference between profit and another type of income.
Private prisons? how is that even legal? This is fucking sad an inhuman. "It's a great investment opportunity because of high recidivism" That is just insane.
What's wrong with private prisons? They don't get to send people to jail, they just collect fees for running the prison.
Have you seen the video? The owners literally claim that their prison is a great investment opportunity because of high recidivism rates. The population wants less prisoners and less crime and low recidivism rates. A for profit prison wants the opposite.
I don't even know why we would need to discuss this. If it wasn't so sad and real it could be straight out of an American Caricature.
From a strictly financial perspective, yes, the for profit prison wants to stay full of prisoners. And guess what? The numbers work exactly the same for a public run prison.
No, because public prisons are not run for profit, they're run to keep the bad guys locked up. If there's no difference between business and government in the US anyway then that's a general problem and has nothing to do with the concept of the public branch. I find it ridiculous that we're seriously having that discussion. It's the 21st century, you don't have people locked up in private, for profit institutions. It's wrong to give anyone who is not the government that authority.
Both public and private prisons keep bad guys locked up in exchange for money. If you think that profit makes a difference, please establish why it makes a difference.
Private prisons make money from having prisoners.
Therefor they have incentive to work against rehabilitating the prisoners they have, since if they go out, commit another crime and go to jail again the prison makes more money.
Thus, private prisons have a vested interest in people committing more crimes, which kinda goes against the entire purpose of the prison system.
Making profit out of people that have committed crimes is just wrong.
The same financial incentive exists for public prisons, police forces and prosecutors.
No. Public prisons, as well as public healthcare are supposed to pay for themselves, but not more. They don't exist to make profit, they exist to keep people healthy and safe. No country in the Western world runs for-profit prisons except the US. So stop screaming that non-profit prisons don't exist because it's fucking nonsense, they're the norm virtually everywhere.
Public prisons have no incentive to create more prisoners because they don't get any money from it, they pay for the prisons with tax dollars. Private run prisons have the incentive to screw their prisoners over to make more dollars. How can Americans not wrap their head around that difference.
Private prisons? how is that even legal? This is fucking sad an inhuman. "It's a great investment opportunity because of high recidivism" That is just insane.
What's wrong with private prisons? They don't get to send people to jail, they just collect fees for running the prison.
Have you seen the video? The owners literally claim that their prison is a great investment opportunity because of high recidivism rates. The population wants less prisoners and less crime and low recidivism rates. A for profit prison wants the opposite.
I don't even know why we would need to discuss this. If it wasn't so sad and real it could be straight out of an American Caricature.
From a strictly financial perspective, yes, the for profit prison wants to stay full of prisoners. And guess what? The numbers work exactly the same for a public run prison.
No, because public prisons are not run for profit, they're run to keep the bad guys locked up. If there's no difference between business and government in the US anyway then that's a general problem and has nothing to do with the concept of the public branch. I find it ridiculous that we're seriously having that discussion. It's the 21st century, you don't have people locked up in private, for profit institutions. It's wrong to give anyone who is not the government that authority.
Both public and private prisons keep bad guys locked up in exchange for money. If you think that profit makes a difference, please establish why it makes a difference.
Private prisons make money from having prisoners.
Therefor they have incentive to work against rehabilitating the prisoners they have, since if they go out, commit another crime and go to jail again the prison makes more money.
Thus, private prisons have a vested interest in people committing more crimes, which kinda goes against the entire purpose of the prison system.
Making profit out of people that have committed crimes is just wrong.
The same financial incentive exists for public prisons, police forces and prosecutors.
No. Public prisons, as well as public healthcare are supposed to pay for themselves, but not more. They don't exist to make profit, they exist to keep people healthy and safe. No country in the Western world runs for-profit prisons except the US. So stop screaming that non-profit prisons don't exist because it's fucking nonsense, they're the norm virtually everywhere.
Public prisons have no incentive to create more prisoners because they don't get any money from it, they pay for the prisons with tax dollars. Private run prisons have the incentive to screw their prisoners over to make more dollars. How can Americans not wrap their head around that difference.
I never said that non-profit prisons didn't exist. What I said was that public prisons have income as well, and thus also have financial interests tied to that income. You're blind if you can't see that.
Public prisons have incentives to screw over prisoners to make room for other budget priorities. Private prisons have an incentive to run a quality prison or risk losing their contract.
In other words, there are many incentives that can and do exist in their situation. All you're doing is glossing over some, while assuming and magnifying the existence other others.
Private prisons? how is that even legal? This is fucking sad an inhuman. "It's a great investment opportunity because of high recidivism" That is just insane.
What's wrong with private prisons? They don't get to send people to jail, they just collect fees for running the prison.
Have you seen the video? The owners literally claim that their prison is a great investment opportunity because of high recidivism rates. The population wants less prisoners and less crime and low recidivism rates. A for profit prison wants the opposite.
I don't even know why we would need to discuss this. If it wasn't so sad and real it could be straight out of an American Caricature.
From a strictly financial perspective, yes, the for profit prison wants to stay full of prisoners. And guess what? The numbers work exactly the same for a public run prison.
No, because public prisons are not run for profit, they're run to keep the bad guys locked up. If there's no difference between business and government in the US anyway then that's a general problem and has nothing to do with the concept of the public branch. I find it ridiculous that we're seriously having that discussion. It's the 21st century, you don't have people locked up in private, for profit institutions. It's wrong to give anyone who is not the government that authority.
Both public and private prisons keep bad guys locked up in exchange for money. If you think that profit makes a difference, please establish why it makes a difference.
Private prisons make money from having prisoners.
Therefor they have incentive to work against rehabilitating the prisoners they have, since if they go out, commit another crime and go to jail again the prison makes more money.
Thus, private prisons have a vested interest in people committing more crimes, which kinda goes against the entire purpose of the prison system.
Making profit out of people that have committed crimes is just wrong.
The same financial incentive exists for public prisons, police forces and prosecutors.
I can't believe I'm giving into responding to this ridiculousness but here goes.
Ok the whole private vs public argument is usually coated in the 'incentive' argument. Let's look at how that might matter in prisons.
A private prison is incentive to get as many people in prison as possible, then once they are there make sure they stay there. If by some chance they escape repay their debt, it is in their interest to make sure they come back soon. This is accomplished by what I presume are obvious (and some not so obvious) means?
A public prison isn't trying to generate profit from incarcerating people. That should be enough, but it seems you need more explanation. Prisons cost money, it's in public prisons (and societies[I know private industry doesn't care about that unless it impacts their bottom line{by law}]) interest to keep prison populations as low as possible, rehabilitate the people who come, and do anything within reason to enable them to become more than criminals.
Prison isn't/shouldn't be an industry. It should be a social cost of the human condition paid for by all lucky enough not to end up there (supplemented by the repaying of the inmates debts to society). Perhaps if more of the people in prison belonged there, we wouldn't have to block out the shame of ignoring the atrocities that happen to innocent and low level offenders in prison. As Jon put it 'we would be irate if 1 out of every 2 dozen donuts was getting raped and those are pastries not people.'Or the fact that was pointed out about privatization leading to medical saving coinciding with a huge spike in deaths in prison.
Considering we have more people in prison than any other country period, we should probably look at why people are ending up there more than how to save/make more money off of them once they get there.
If every prosecutor, police officer, and prison suddenly found themselves without any money to make, that would be a problem we would all celebrate. Criminal justice isn't/shouldn't be incentivized by profit, it's supposed to be incentivized by 'justice' (we generally interpret that to be retribution, but whatever).
However, with a privatized prison system the idea of reducing crime rates, recidivism rates, and duration of incarceration are all to be fought against by law to preserve profits for shareholders/owners.
I feel like that's about as simple and obvious as it gets for why privatized prisons are an incredibly bad idea.
Public prisons don't have income.That doesn't make any sense. Prisons don't produce anything(besides some stuff the inmates build). Private prisons make money through contracts with the government, and if they keep the costs for the prisoners low enough, they start making profit.
Saying prisons have an income is like saying 'the military has an income'. No. It costs tax payer dollars, period. What private prisons do is that they're especially cheap(because they screw the prisoners over) and shovel some of that juicy tax payer money into their pockets.
On July 22 2014 08:31 Nyxisto wrote: Public prisons don't have income.That doesn't make any sense. Prisons don't produce anything(besides some stuff the inmates build). Private prisons make money through contracts with the government, and if they keep the costs for the prisoners low enough, they make profit.
Yes they do. You can use different terminology to 'prove' me wrong, but the economic reality is the same. Money goes in, money buys labor, goods and outside services and the lower the costs relative to outcomes the better.
The only difference is in the labels used and the structures surrounding them. There is no inherent difference though. Again, look at the California PUBLIC prison example. There are money incentives to lock a lot of people up (more prison guards earning income, more police, police look good, etc.) and money incentives to spend little on caring for the prisoners. It's the same damned thing.
Public prisons don't charge anybody for their services. If you do not charge someone for a service you can not make profit. How can you not understand this
Driven by cases like Nodd's, the population of federal prisons grew nearly tenfold in three decades, from about 25,000 in 1980 to nearly 219,000 in 2012.
The Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1986 clearly targeted crack cocaine, an epidemic at the time. The law set mandatory minimum sentences for 5 grams of crack cocaine at five years -- the same sentence someone caught trafficking 500 grams of powdered cocaine would receive.
By 1998, up to 40% of new inmates in the federal prison system were locked up for drug offenses, according to a January report by the Congressional Research Service. And the Bureau of Prisons budget grew from $300 million in 1980 to more than $6 billion in 2012.
A year later, the Sentencing Commission not only reduced sentencing guidelines to match the new law, it allowed inmates already convicted to seek a reduction in their sentences under those new guidelines -- a move that allowed Nodd to get out of prison nine years early. More than 7,300 other federal inmates have had their sentences cut short under the new rules, which the commission estimates will shave about three years off the average 13-year sentence and save about $200 million in prison costs over five years.
I feel like the ridiculousness of this argument couldn't be more self evident but alas, here we are.
Pretty obvious what happened to prisons since the 80's. The reason I really wanted to show this is that last part I put in bold.
See, that is a realization of savings private prisons cant get and wouldn't want. Because reducing sentences of people who shouldn't have got them in the first place is like taking away money they never should of gotten. Where as in a public system we, us, the American people, save money when we get someone out of prison when they shouldn't be there.
On July 22 2014 08:40 Nyxisto wrote: Public prisons don't charge anybody for their services. If you do not charge someone for a service you can not make profit. How can you not understand this
On July 22 2014 08:40 Nyxisto wrote: Public prisons don't charge anybody for their services. If you do not charge someone for a service you can not make profit. How can you not understand this
^ It's called a taxpayer.
So the government just charges the taxpayer more if they like? Oh wait it doesn't work that way because they only have a limited amount of money to work with, and the money they would theoretically make out of their prisons wouldn't go into private pockets. That doesn't make any sense, sorry.
Public prisoners don't have shareholders. Even if a public prison would make a bazillion dollars profit the government would just have to pump the money back into the economy anyway. It doesn't make sense for the government to make profit out of a prison, a firefighter, a hospital or whatever.
A special kind of stupid, this man wants federal funds to do this but refuses $9.5 billion in Medicaid expansion.
Texas Gov. Rick Perry announced Monday that he will be sending up to 1,000 Texas National Guard troops to the state’s border with Mexico in an effort to stem the tide of what his administration says is a torrent of criminals entering the country.
Perry and other officials at a press conference in Austin said the problem at the border is not the thousands of undocumented children who have recently tried to seek safer living conditions in the U.S. but rather the drug trafficking and violence that has spilled over into Texas border towns. And the $12 million monthly bill for the National Guard deployment? Texas will send it to the federal government, which Perry has criticized for not doing enough to secure the border.
“These additional resources will help combat the brutal Mexican drug cartels that are preying on our communities,” Gov. Rick Perry said at a press conference Monday, announcing “Operation Strong Safety.”
If Washington refuses to reimburse the Lone Star state for its trouble and time, Texas plans to “take legal action against the Obama administration,” he added.
Private prions have lockup quotas to guarantee a minimum number of prisoners (profit).
If there aren't enough legitimate criminals to incarcerate, they'll start doing BS like giving a kid a massive sentence for lending his car to someone who went on to commit a crime.
On July 22 2014 08:40 Nyxisto wrote: Public prisons don't charge anybody for their services. If you do not charge someone for a service you can not make profit. How can you not understand this
^ It's called a taxpayer.
So the government just charges the taxpayer more if they like? Oh wait it doesn't work that way because they only have a limited amount of money to work with, and the money they would theoretically make out of their prisons wouldn't go into private pockets. That doesn't make any sense, sorry.
lol, what? Private prisons get their money from the government which gets its money from the taxpayers. Same exact flow as public prisons. They only difference is that you break off the private prison into its own economic unit (which public prisons do too).
On July 22 2014 08:45 SnipedSoul wrote: Private prions have lockup quotas to guarantee a minimum number of prisoners (profit).
If there aren't enough legitimate criminals to incarcerate, they'll start doing BS like giving a kid a massive sentence for lending his car to someone who went on to commit a crime.
On July 22 2014 08:45 SnipedSoul wrote: Private prions have lockup quotas to guarantee a minimum number of prisoners (profit).
If there aren't enough legitimate criminals to incarcerate, they'll start doing BS like giving a kid a massive sentence for lending his car to someone who went on to commit a crime.
Private prisons can't sentence people.
No, but they do have a lot of money with which to lobby against things like legalization of marijuana to keep millions of people in their prisons.
EPT
