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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On July 13 2014 09:47 Nyxisto wrote:
If what the US is currently doing is considered 'not quite isolationism' I'm not sure I want to know what interventionism looks like
it's not really interventionist or isolationist in the parochial sense of defining either terms according to a narrow national boundary.
america has believed, rightly or wrongly but mostly rightly that its interests are also shared interests for allies with similar values. all the spread democracy and justice etc stuff is really actually sincere, it's rooted in a sense of what america itself is about. under this view national boundaries and such become less visible, at least in terms of forming certain policy objectives.
the actual execution and particular interpretation of american values can be a lot more messy.
if you misguided euros actually get a throwback, isolationist united states you probably would not like the outcome.
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A few days old, but just appeared on my RSS. There is precisely nothing in this story that is positive.
Aside from her unceremonious firing, former New York Times executive editor Jill Abramson is perhaps best known for her assertion that the Obama administration is the most secretive of any she has covered, and in 22 years in Washington, that covers a lot of White Houses. She got plenty of grief from President Obama’s top aides in the aftermath, and while other journalists made the same observation, Abramson’s words carried weight, coming as they did from the prestigious newspaper’s first female top editor.
Two months after leaving the Times, in case anyone is wondering, she isn’t backing down from that assertion, but backing it up with concrete examples and inside anecdotes. “I have heard Obama officials say more than once, ‘You will have blood on your hands if you publish this story,’” she said in a speech Wednesday at the Chautauqua Institution describing her perspective as a key player in the midst of some of the biggest stories of our time pitting press freedom against national security.
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On July 13 2014 11:11 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2014 10:57 coverpunch wrote:On July 13 2014 10:03 Mindcrime wrote:On July 13 2014 09:29 coverpunch wrote:
I think it is so interesting to see the glacial 180 of Republicans becoming interventionists (and separately, Democrats wanting less engagement with the world but not quite isolationism). republicans becoming interventionists? wait, what? neither party has advocated non-interventionism since before wwii No, but Republicans have been far more reluctant to exercise American power except for direct threats to Americans or American interests (e.g. oil). Democrats have been far more willing to intervene to go to spread American values or to topple leaders they feel are tyrannical (e.g. Castro, Ho Chi Minh, Milosevic). Progressives of both parties have been willing to intervene all the way back to the time of Teddy Roosevelt. Much of the left's anti-war image remains from Vietnam and was recrystallized in the Bush years where, after supporting both wars, it became popular to oppose them. No one party has really been anything close to isolationist since the years leading up to WWII. But yes, technically more major wars/conflicts were started/entered by Democrats. It's not the type of thing I would use as an effective gauge, however.
Fair enough that it isn't a huge contrast, but in the context of history, it is strange to see Democrats worried about watching a human rights disaster in the making yet unwilling to intervene while Republicans bend over backwards to make a strategic argument, with guys like Rick Perry essentially chomping at the bit to intervene, even though his arguments aren't terribly convincing.
I've been hearing some small buzz that the administration might be trying to negotiate with Iran, since we share a mutual interest in weakening ISIS, if not eliminating it altogether. SecState Kerry is in Austria to negotiate the next round of nuclear talks. The politics of that will also be very curious to watch.
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Let me support my point by comparing inaugural addresses from the last four presidents:
HW Bush
To the world, too, we offer new engagement and a renewed vow: We will stay strong to protect the peace. The "offered hand" is a reluctant fist; but once made, strong, and can be used with great effect. There are today Americans who are held against their will in foreign lands, and Americans who are unaccounted for. Assistance can be shown here, and will be long remembered. Good will begets good will. Good faith can be a spiral that endlessly moves on.
Great nations like great men must keep their word. When America says something, America means it, whether a treaty or an agreement or a vow made on marble steps. We will always try to speak clearly, for candor is a compliment, but subtlety, too, is good and has its place. While keeping our alliances and friendships around the world strong, ever strong, we will continue the new closeness with the Soviet Union, consistent both with our security and with progress. One might say that our new relationship in part reflects the triumph of hope and strength over experience. But hope is good, and so are strength and vigilance.
Clinton:
Today, as an old order passes, the new world is more free but less stable. Communism's collapse has called forth old animosities and new dangers. Clearly America must continue to lead the world we did so much to make.
While America rebuilds at home, we will not shrink from the challenges, nor fail to seize the opportunities, of this new world. Together with our friends and allies, we will work to shape change, lest it engulf us.
When our vital interests are challenged, or the will and conscience of the international community is defied, we will act—with peaceful diplomacy when ever possible, with force when necessary. The brave Americans serving our nation today in the Persian Gulf, in Somalia, and wherever else they stand are testament to our resolve.
W Bush:
We will build our defenses beyond challenge, lest weakness invite challenge.
We will confront weapons of mass destruction, so that a new century is spared new horrors.
The enemies of liberty and our country should make no mistake: America remains engaged in the world by history and by choice, shaping a balance of power that favors freedom. We will defend our allies and our interests. We will show purpose without arrogance. We will meet aggression and bad faith with resolve and strength. And to all nations, we will speak for the values that gave our nation birth.
Obama:
Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with the sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.
We are the keepers of this legacy. Guided by these principles once more we can meet those new threats that demand even greater effort, even greater cooperation and understanding between nations. We will begin to responsibly leave Iraq to its people and forge a hard-earned peace in Afghanistan. With old friends and former foes, we'll work tirelessly to lessen the nuclear threat, and roll back the specter of a warming planet.
We will not apologize for our way of life, nor will we waver in its defense. And for those who seek to advance their aims by inducing terror and slaughtering innocents, we say to you now that our spirit is stronger and cannot be broken -- you cannot outlast us, and we will defeat you.
IMO, in this reading there is a glacial change between the two Bushes and between Clinton and Obama for both parties. W Bush seems more confrontational and Obama seems far less so. All emphasize America's engagement with the world but it seems there is a fundamental difference in attitude between Republicans and Democrats about what that means and how the US wants to maintain global stability.
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Or let's look at it at not as two parties with different stances evolving separately but as a nation primarily driven by corporate interests that was war-weary after Vietnam, got amped up by the "success" of Iraq 1, and got hyper amped by 9/11, before wearying of a decade-long quagmire in the Middle East.
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But you have to see them differently because it is now the Republicans who want the White House to go after these conflicts in Syria and Iraq because they see a strategic threat in the instability being created, while Democrats worry about the human rights violations but still don't think the cost-benefit works out in America's favor. I've been avoiding the dimension of who's right or wrong, better or worse, because there's clearly merit to both views and it all needs to be considered.
There's clearly validity in being down on going back to a country that has already cost America dearly with arguably little success and in worrying that things could get even worse in terms of instability and terrorism if ISIS is allowed to consolidate and stabilize its gains.
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ALBANY, N.Y. (AP) — New York's homeland security agency is refusing requests from freight railroads to further restrict public information about their crude oil shipments, concluding it's not sensitive security information and will be given to local emergency planners.
Federal officials reached a similar conclusion in June, ordering railroads to give state officials details about oil-train routes and volumes so emergency responders can be better prepared for their duties.
Railroads sought to keep the information secret, arguing that information on oil train routes and volumes are security sensitive. The issue followed a string of fiery accidents. A derailment and explosion in Quebec last July killed 47 people.
Jerome Hauer, Homeland Security and Emergency Services commissioner, told CSX Transportation and Canadian Pacific Railway that New York won't adopt special non-disclosure agreements.
"The state has concluded that the information provided does not necessitate additional security measures to ensure the protection of public safety," he said.
He said Friday that public disclosures must be made available through the state's Freedom of Information Law. Such requests can take weeks or even months, depending in part on the complexity or volume of information requested.
The Associated Press and eight environmental groups have already filed requests for the information.
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The Obama administration continues its hand-wringing on Syria and Iraq as Attorney General Holder speaks on it:
HOLDER: “In some ways, it’s more frightening than anything I think I’ve seen as attorney general. 9/11 was something that kind of came out of the blue. This is a situation that we can see developing and the potential that I see coming out, the negative potential I see coming out of the facts in Syria and Iraq now are quite concerning.”
THOMAS: “Among the concerns: intelligence that bomb makers from Yemen — those responsible for the 2009 underwear bomb plot — are now in Syria joining forces with the thousands of foreign fighters there.”
HOLDER: “[I]t’s a deadly combination, where you have people who have the technical know-how along with the people who have this kind of fervor to give their lives in support of a cause that is directed at the United States and directed at its allies. And it’s something that gives us really extreme, extreme concern.”
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On July 14 2014 07:10 coverpunch wrote:The Obama administration continues its hand-wringing on Syria and Iraq as Attorney General Holder speaks on it:Show nested quote + HOLDER: “In some ways, it’s more frightening than anything I think I’ve seen as attorney general. 9/11 was something that kind of came out of the blue. This is a situation that we can see developing and the potential that I see coming out, the negative potential I see coming out of the facts in Syria and Iraq now are quite concerning.”
THOMAS: “Among the concerns: intelligence that bomb makers from Yemen — those responsible for the 2009 underwear bomb plot — are now in Syria joining forces with the thousands of foreign fighters there.”
HOLDER: “[I]t’s a deadly combination, where you have people who have the technical know-how along with the people who have this kind of fervor to give their lives in support of a cause that is directed at the United States and directed at its allies. And it’s something that gives us really extreme, extreme concern.”
Because the last x times 'Merica brought peace to the Middle East were so successful.
Help Iran fix the region but hey you spend the last decades alienating them so that's hardly an option either.
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On July 14 2014 07:16 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2014 07:10 coverpunch wrote:The Obama administration continues its hand-wringing on Syria and Iraq as Attorney General Holder speaks on it: HOLDER: “In some ways, it’s more frightening than anything I think I’ve seen as attorney general. 9/11 was something that kind of came out of the blue. This is a situation that we can see developing and the potential that I see coming out, the negative potential I see coming out of the facts in Syria and Iraq now are quite concerning.”
THOMAS: “Among the concerns: intelligence that bomb makers from Yemen — those responsible for the 2009 underwear bomb plot — are now in Syria joining forces with the thousands of foreign fighters there.”
HOLDER: “[I]t’s a deadly combination, where you have people who have the technical know-how along with the people who have this kind of fervor to give their lives in support of a cause that is directed at the United States and directed at its allies. And it’s something that gives us really extreme, extreme concern.” Because the last x times 'Merica brought peace to the Middle East were so successful. Help Iran fix the region but hey you spend the last decades alienating them so that's hardly an option either.
Helping Iran is a stupid idea. With the current regime in place, they're little better than ISIS.
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On July 14 2014 07:45 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2014 07:16 Gorsameth wrote:On July 14 2014 07:10 coverpunch wrote:The Obama administration continues its hand-wringing on Syria and Iraq as Attorney General Holder speaks on it: HOLDER: “In some ways, it’s more frightening than anything I think I’ve seen as attorney general. 9/11 was something that kind of came out of the blue. This is a situation that we can see developing and the potential that I see coming out, the negative potential I see coming out of the facts in Syria and Iraq now are quite concerning.”
THOMAS: “Among the concerns: intelligence that bomb makers from Yemen — those responsible for the 2009 underwear bomb plot — are now in Syria joining forces with the thousands of foreign fighters there.”
HOLDER: “[I]t’s a deadly combination, where you have people who have the technical know-how along with the people who have this kind of fervor to give their lives in support of a cause that is directed at the United States and directed at its allies. And it’s something that gives us really extreme, extreme concern.” Because the last x times 'Merica brought peace to the Middle East were so successful. Help Iran fix the region but hey you spend the last decades alienating them so that's hardly an option either. Helping Iran is a stupid idea. With the current regime in place, they're little better than ISIS.
Ideologically Iran is as different from ISIS as it's going to get in the region.
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On July 14 2014 07:45 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2014 07:16 Gorsameth wrote:On July 14 2014 07:10 coverpunch wrote:The Obama administration continues its hand-wringing on Syria and Iraq as Attorney General Holder speaks on it: HOLDER: “In some ways, it’s more frightening than anything I think I’ve seen as attorney general. 9/11 was something that kind of came out of the blue. This is a situation that we can see developing and the potential that I see coming out, the negative potential I see coming out of the facts in Syria and Iraq now are quite concerning.”
THOMAS: “Among the concerns: intelligence that bomb makers from Yemen — those responsible for the 2009 underwear bomb plot — are now in Syria joining forces with the thousands of foreign fighters there.”
HOLDER: “[I]t’s a deadly combination, where you have people who have the technical know-how along with the people who have this kind of fervor to give their lives in support of a cause that is directed at the United States and directed at its allies. And it’s something that gives us really extreme, extreme concern.” Because the last x times 'Merica brought peace to the Middle East were so successful. Help Iran fix the region but hey you spend the last decades alienating them so that's hardly an option either. Helping Iran is a stupid idea. With the current regime in place, they're little better than ISIS.
Yet we're friends with Saudi Arabia which has financed ISIS.
HARRISBURG, Pa. (AP) - Gov. Tom Corbett has signed legislation allowing Tesla to open five dealerships in Pennsylvania.
Tesla pushed for the bill, signed last week by Corbett, because its business model had run up against a state law prohibiting manufacturers from also acting as a vehicle dealer.
The bill won swift approval after the sponsor, Sen. John Rafferty of Montgomery County, introduced it in June.
The law applies any electric vehicle maker and carries certain conditions, including that it deals exclusively in its own brand and it doesn't hold a controlling interest in another make.
Rafferty says a similar exemption for Saturn was allowed in 2000. Tesla had already opened a dealership in King of Prussia in suburban Philadelphia, although Rafferty and state officials couldn't explain how it had qualified for a license.
Source
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
the iraq adventures were never about core us interest. this will be different. the prospect of fanatics set lose on the west with passports is dangerous. some cooperation iwth iran might be in the future.
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On July 14 2014 07:48 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2014 07:45 xDaunt wrote:On July 14 2014 07:16 Gorsameth wrote:On July 14 2014 07:10 coverpunch wrote:The Obama administration continues its hand-wringing on Syria and Iraq as Attorney General Holder speaks on it: HOLDER: “In some ways, it’s more frightening than anything I think I’ve seen as attorney general. 9/11 was something that kind of came out of the blue. This is a situation that we can see developing and the potential that I see coming out, the negative potential I see coming out of the facts in Syria and Iraq now are quite concerning.”
THOMAS: “Among the concerns: intelligence that bomb makers from Yemen — those responsible for the 2009 underwear bomb plot — are now in Syria joining forces with the thousands of foreign fighters there.”
HOLDER: “[I]t’s a deadly combination, where you have people who have the technical know-how along with the people who have this kind of fervor to give their lives in support of a cause that is directed at the United States and directed at its allies. And it’s something that gives us really extreme, extreme concern.” Because the last x times 'Merica brought peace to the Middle East were so successful. Help Iran fix the region but hey you spend the last decades alienating them so that's hardly an option either. Helping Iran is a stupid idea. With the current regime in place, they're little better than ISIS. Ideologically Iran is as different from ISIS as it's going to get in the region.
Yes, ISIS and Iran are enemies, but that doesn't mean that Iran is our friend. Quite the opposite. I'm perfectly content to let them slaughter each other for the time being rather than strengthen Iran.
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On July 14 2014 08:13 oneofthem wrote:
the iraq adventures were never about core us interest. this will be different. the prospect of fanatics set lose on the west with passports is dangerous. some cooperation iwth iran might be in the future.
And how exactly is this any different from the current situation? The fanatics can still get passports from their current countries of origin. If anything, it will be far, far easier to deal with ISIS as a state because we actually will have a real target to sanction, bar from entry to the US, and otherwise attack if need be.
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On July 14 2014 08:29 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2014 07:48 Nyxisto wrote:On July 14 2014 07:45 xDaunt wrote:On July 14 2014 07:16 Gorsameth wrote:On July 14 2014 07:10 coverpunch wrote:The Obama administration continues its hand-wringing on Syria and Iraq as Attorney General Holder speaks on it: HOLDER: “In some ways, it’s more frightening than anything I think I’ve seen as attorney general. 9/11 was something that kind of came out of the blue. This is a situation that we can see developing and the potential that I see coming out, the negative potential I see coming out of the facts in Syria and Iraq now are quite concerning.”
THOMAS: “Among the concerns: intelligence that bomb makers from Yemen — those responsible for the 2009 underwear bomb plot — are now in Syria joining forces with the thousands of foreign fighters there.”
HOLDER: “[I]t’s a deadly combination, where you have people who have the technical know-how along with the people who have this kind of fervor to give their lives in support of a cause that is directed at the United States and directed at its allies. And it’s something that gives us really extreme, extreme concern.” Because the last x times 'Merica brought peace to the Middle East were so successful. Help Iran fix the region but hey you spend the last decades alienating them so that's hardly an option either. Helping Iran is a stupid idea. With the current regime in place, they're little better than ISIS. Ideologically Iran is as different from ISIS as it's going to get in the region. Yes, ISIS and Iran are enemies, but that doesn't mean that Iran is our friend. Quite the opposite. I'm perfectly content to let them slaughter each other for the time being rather than strengthen Iran.
What is it with Americas irrational Iran hate? At least the country would have a reasonable chance of bringing some stability to the region. Last time I checked Western nation-building is not doing so well over there.
Why the fuck would you be okay with ISIS and Iran "slaughtering each other"? Not only is that completely inhuman but it will also inevitably result in a rise of terrorism which in return is going to effect the West negatively. Still salty because they kicked the Shah's out?
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On July 14 2014 08:33 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2014 08:29 xDaunt wrote:On July 14 2014 07:48 Nyxisto wrote:On July 14 2014 07:45 xDaunt wrote:On July 14 2014 07:16 Gorsameth wrote:On July 14 2014 07:10 coverpunch wrote:The Obama administration continues its hand-wringing on Syria and Iraq as Attorney General Holder speaks on it: HOLDER: “In some ways, it’s more frightening than anything I think I’ve seen as attorney general. 9/11 was something that kind of came out of the blue. This is a situation that we can see developing and the potential that I see coming out, the negative potential I see coming out of the facts in Syria and Iraq now are quite concerning.”
THOMAS: “Among the concerns: intelligence that bomb makers from Yemen — those responsible for the 2009 underwear bomb plot — are now in Syria joining forces with the thousands of foreign fighters there.”
HOLDER: “[I]t’s a deadly combination, where you have people who have the technical know-how along with the people who have this kind of fervor to give their lives in support of a cause that is directed at the United States and directed at its allies. And it’s something that gives us really extreme, extreme concern.” Because the last x times 'Merica brought peace to the Middle East were so successful. Help Iran fix the region but hey you spend the last decades alienating them so that's hardly an option either. Helping Iran is a stupid idea. With the current regime in place, they're little better than ISIS. Ideologically Iran is as different from ISIS as it's going to get in the region. Yes, ISIS and Iran are enemies, but that doesn't mean that Iran is our friend. Quite the opposite. I'm perfectly content to let them slaughter each other for the time being rather than strengthen Iran. What is it with Americas irrational Iran hate? At least the country would have a reasonable chance of bringing some stability to the region. Last time I checked Western nation-building is not doing so well over there. Why the fuck would you be okay with ISIS and Iran "slaughtering each other"? Not only is that a completely inhuman but it will also inevitably result in a rise of terrorism which in return is going to effect the West negatively. Still salty because they kicked the Shah's out?
US hates Iran because they once said something bad about Israel and the US is Israel's bitch.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On July 14 2014 08:31 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2014 08:13 oneofthem wrote:
the iraq adventures were never about core us interest. this will be different. the prospect of fanatics set lose on the west with passports is dangerous. some cooperation iwth iran might be in the future. And how exactly is this any different from the current situation? The fanatics can still get passports from their current countries of origin. If anything, it will be far, far easier to deal with ISIS as a state because we actually will have a real target to sanction, bar from entry to the US, and otherwise attack if need be.
it's not a state. just a bunch of fanatics running amok. in the situation where they establish permanent control they might still aim for western targets or at any rate world wide jihad.
your idea of sanctioning ISIS is fantastical. them forming a state won't give you more concrete targets to sanction. they have no state level assets or really any attachment to governing.
iran has made softening gestures recently
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On July 14 2014 07:16 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2014 07:10 coverpunch wrote:The Obama administration continues its hand-wringing on Syria and Iraq as Attorney General Holder speaks on it: HOLDER: “In some ways, it’s more frightening than anything I think I’ve seen as attorney general. 9/11 was something that kind of came out of the blue. This is a situation that we can see developing and the potential that I see coming out, the negative potential I see coming out of the facts in Syria and Iraq now are quite concerning.”
THOMAS: “Among the concerns: intelligence that bomb makers from Yemen — those responsible for the 2009 underwear bomb plot — are now in Syria joining forces with the thousands of foreign fighters there.”
HOLDER: “[I]t’s a deadly combination, where you have people who have the technical know-how along with the people who have this kind of fervor to give their lives in support of a cause that is directed at the United States and directed at its allies. And it’s something that gives us really extreme, extreme concern.” Because the last x times 'Merica brought peace to the Middle East were so successful. Help Iran fix the region but hey you spend the last decades alienating them so that's hardly an option either.
Compared to what? All the times Europe brought peace to the Middle East?
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On July 14 2014 08:45 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2014 07:16 Gorsameth wrote:On July 14 2014 07:10 coverpunch wrote:The Obama administration continues its hand-wringing on Syria and Iraq as Attorney General Holder speaks on it: HOLDER: “In some ways, it’s more frightening than anything I think I’ve seen as attorney general. 9/11 was something that kind of came out of the blue. This is a situation that we can see developing and the potential that I see coming out, the negative potential I see coming out of the facts in Syria and Iraq now are quite concerning.”
THOMAS: “Among the concerns: intelligence that bomb makers from Yemen — those responsible for the 2009 underwear bomb plot — are now in Syria joining forces with the thousands of foreign fighters there.”
HOLDER: “[I]t’s a deadly combination, where you have people who have the technical know-how along with the people who have this kind of fervor to give their lives in support of a cause that is directed at the United States and directed at its allies. And it’s something that gives us really extreme, extreme concern.” Because the last x times 'Merica brought peace to the Middle East were so successful. Help Iran fix the region but hey you spend the last decades alienating them so that's hardly an option either. Compared to what? All the times Europe brought peace to the Middle East?
nice attempt at trying to change the subject but do try again.
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EPT
