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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18857 Posts
June 22 2014 00:14 GMT
#22601
The sad fact of the matter is that enough people in Texas believe that criminalizing marijuana is a good idea. The Mexican border is a big part of this; the damage wrought by the rhetoric of the War on Drugs will take a long time to fix.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23946 Posts
June 22 2014 00:21 GMT
#22602
On June 22 2014 09:09 Nyxisto wrote:
can't someone just run in Texas and campaign for getting rid of these draconian punishments and ridiculous laws? Or is the majority of people in Texas actually supporting this nonsense?



The laws were originally developed to alienate Mexicans and provide a crime that was easy to frame them for.

1900 - 20s

Mexican immigrants introduce recreational use of marijuana leaf

After the Mexican Revolution of 1910, Mexican immigrants flooded into the U.S., introducing to American culture the recreational use of marijuana. The drug became associated with the immigrants, and the fear and prejudice about the Spanish-speaking newcomers became associated with marijuana. Anti-drug campaigners warned against the encroaching "Marijuana Menace," and terrible crimes were attributed to marijuana and the Mexicans who used it.


1930s

Fear of marijuana

During the Great Depression, massive unemployment increased public resentment and fear of Mexican immigrants, escalating public and governmental concern about the problem of marijuana. This instigated a flurry of research which linked the use of marijuana with violence, crime and other socially deviant behaviors, primarily committed by "racially inferior" or underclass communities. By 1931, 29 states had outlawed marijuana.


Source

What do you think?

On another note, weren't we still in Afghanistan (and Iraq to an extent) because we were supposed to stop the terrorists from having fertile ground to breed? If that's the case isn't the mere existence of ISIS evidence of the total failure of that occupation strategy of preventing radical terrorists from forming armies/networks/infrastructures, regardless of who ended up getting stuck with it's legacy?

Especially when one considers how many of the drone strikes coming out of the Afghan war were actually in Pakistan.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
June 22 2014 00:59 GMT
#22603
On June 22 2014 09:09 Nyxisto wrote:
can't someone just run in Texas and campaign for getting rid of these draconian punishments and ridiculous laws? Or is the majority of people in Texas actually supporting this nonsense?

Many people sill remember the high crime era of just a couple decades ago. It'll take time to convince them that relaxing various laws is a good idea.
Livelovedie
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States492 Posts
June 22 2014 01:16 GMT
#22604
Actually the first drug laws originated in California to discriminate against the Chinese who used opium.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23946 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-22 04:11:33
June 22 2014 02:20 GMT
#22605
On June 22 2014 09:59 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2014 09:09 Nyxisto wrote:
can't someone just run in Texas and campaign for getting rid of these draconian punishments and ridiculous laws? Or is the majority of people in Texas actually supporting this nonsense?

Many people sill remember the high crime era of just a couple decades ago. It'll take time to convince them that relaxing various laws is a good idea.



Would probably help if there wasn't so much disinformation out there. And so many people still saying the same grossly inaccurate things about cannabis especially...

People are so ridiculously ignorant about cannabis. If we discovered it tomorrow in the Amazon it would be hailed as a miracle drug, but because of all the racial and criminal stigma that was errantly attached, we are supposed to wait for those ignorant people to be convinced that they don't know what they are talking about? Many of the same ignorant people who don't accept a long list of well known facts...?

Just to put into perspective how this has 0 to do with reality.

These drugs are given for Restless Leg Syndrome... (This means you move your legs when you are trying to sleep.)

Dopaminergic agents- Used treat Parkinson's
Benzodiazepines- Valium/Xanax
Opioids- (Pharmaceutical Heroin)
Anticonvulsants- Used to treat seizures
Alpha2 -adrenergic agonists


These are some of the side effects from those drugs. This means WE KNOW FOR A FACT THIS HAPPENS TO PEOPLE WHO TAKE THEM

fainting, mental/mood changes (e.g., confusion, depression, hallucinations, memory problems), increased difficulty moving/walking, muscle cramps/spasm, restlessness, decreased sexual ability, increased shakiness (tremor)/stiffness. falling asleep suddenly during their usual daily activities (e.g., talking on the phone, driving). In some cases, sleep occurred without any feelings of drowsiness beforehand. This sleep effect may occur any time during treatment with pramipexole, including up to 1 year after starting the medication.

thoughts of suicide or hurting yourself, unusual risk-taking behavior, decreased inhibitions, no fear of danger; uncontrolled muscle movements, tremor, seizure (convulsions) blurred vision



The list is long and very scary... Those are just a few of the acceptable side effects for treating a non-deadly inconvenience...

But yeah whats the harm in waiting a few more decades for people to get a clue. I mean it's not like locking up kids for pot brownies or other simple possession isn't ruining peoples lives for no good reason.

Meanwhile the same people wanting to lock up those nefarious cannabis consumers scream about personal freedom, while popping legally and illegally obtained prescription drugs by the handful (Rush Limbaugh anyone?).

The crime element is only related in as much as ignorant people believe the propaganda. The deadliest and most harmful drugs in the US are legally sold and consumed.

Prescription opioid painkillers are responsible for more fatal overdoses in the U.S. than heroin and cocaine combined, according to the Center for Disease Control (CDC).


But they don't go to prison for their crimes under 'equal protection' they enjoy paying fines for lying to, and selling people, deadly drugs...

Merck: With a long list of deaths to its credit, and more than $5.5 billion in judgments and fines levied against it, it was five years before Merck made its $30-billion recall of the painkiller Vioxx that I warned my readers that it might be a real killer for some people. After the drug was withdrawn, and 60,000 had already died, Merck picked up the pieces painlessly by getting a new drug fast-tracked and on the market.

That drug is Gardasil, a vaccine that so far has been linked to thousands of adverse events and at least 49 unexplained deaths. It's a situation that the FDA and CDC have been denying repeatedly, keeping their heads buried in the sand even as the adverse reports mount.

Baxter: Dozens of recalls of products that caused deaths and injuries, at least 11 different guilty pleas to fraud and illegal sales activity, more than 200 lawsuits – many of them stemming from selling AIDS-tainted blood to hemophiliacs – and more than $1.3 billion in criminal fines and civil penalties.

Pfizer: In the largest health care fraud settlement in history, Pfizer was ordered to pay $2.3 billion to resolve criminal and civil allegations that the company illegally promoted uses of four of its drugs, including the painkiller Bextra, the antipsychotic Geodon, the antibiotic Zyvox, and the anti-epileptic Lyrica.


Source

We've already waited decades and in the last one things have only gotten worse in the places where ignorance is king.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


EDIT: Should be noted that lots of heroin overdoses are actually related to people buying bad heroin/misdosing often because it is cheaper than the prescription drug they are addicted to.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 22 2014 03:04 GMT
#22606
The Obama administration, moving Friday to stem a flood of Central American children and families that has overwhelmed the U.S. immigration system, dispatched Vice President Joe Biden to Guatemala to warn about the perils of the journey and announcing that it will start to detain families at the border instead of releasing them on their own recognizance.

After weeks of insistence that criminal violence was responsible for the surge of Central American migrants, the U.S. has begun a regional public-relations campaign to dispel the widespread belief in Central America that children and families will be allowed to stay in the U.S. if they are caught by the Border Patrol.

That belief has been fueled both by migrant smugglers seeking more clients and by calls home from children and families who have been released by the tens of thousands in recent years — with notices to appear in immigration court — because there are no facilities to hold them.

The administration said Friday that it was opening detention centers to house families and that it would also boost law enforcement’s capacity to detain individuals who bring children with them into the U.S. The goal would be to detain a larger percentage of those migrants and accelerate their cases in immigration courts so that they can be deported more rapidly, officials told The New York Times.

Rights groups like the American Civil Liberties Union were skeptical about the proposed changes, which the Times reported would include more detention centers and extensive use of ankle bracelets to monitor the whereabouts of migrants after they are released.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-22 04:10:34
June 22 2014 04:07 GMT
#22607
there's obviously a bit of punitive premium with marijuana (and other 'moral' crimes), but that's not all there is to it. it's additionally an undesirable group thing, a prejudice associated with not mere action but with the culture and people surrounding it.

with marijuana's history of an unamerican drug it has the additional problem of representing an undesirable, foreign culture. stuff like prescription drug abuse are dirty laundry sins hidden in the proverbial closet. through punitive measures against marijuana, the associated group of people is basically modern day lepers. the prescription drug thingy is just a hidden shame that is treated by words like 'weakness of will' and such.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
June 22 2014 07:04 GMT
#22608
On June 22 2014 12:04 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
The Obama administration, moving Friday to stem a flood of Central American children and families that has overwhelmed the U.S. immigration system, dispatched Vice President Joe Biden to Guatemala to warn about the perils of the journey and announcing that it will start to detain families at the border instead of releasing them on their own recognizance.

After weeks of insistence that criminal violence was responsible for the surge of Central American migrants, the U.S. has begun a regional public-relations campaign to dispel the widespread belief in Central America that children and families will be allowed to stay in the U.S. if they are caught by the Border Patrol.

That belief has been fueled both by migrant smugglers seeking more clients and by calls home from children and families who have been released by the tens of thousands in recent years — with notices to appear in immigration court — because there are no facilities to hold them.

The administration said Friday that it was opening detention centers to house families and that it would also boost law enforcement’s capacity to detain individuals who bring children with them into the U.S. The goal would be to detain a larger percentage of those migrants and accelerate their cases in immigration courts so that they can be deported more rapidly, officials told The New York Times.

Rights groups like the American Civil Liberties Union were skeptical about the proposed changes, which the Times reported would include more detention centers and extensive use of ankle bracelets to monitor the whereabouts of migrants after they are released.

The belief has also been fueled by Obama's rhetoric on DREAMers and his previous actions to subvert current law and treat classes of illegal aliens differently. If its pen & phone lawmaking, it's also pen and phone immigration law. If the administration was interested in making a good faith effort to stem the tide, he could start by taking La Raza off his adviser circle and changing how his officials talk about illegal immigration.
"Almost all agree that a child who crossed the border illegally with their parents, or in search of a father or a better life, was not making an adult choice to break our laws, and should be treated differently than adult violators of the law,"

Jeh Johnson, Homeland Security Secretary under Obama, commenting on Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, and quoted (translated) in Central American newspapers


Drug & gang violence is undoubtedly present alongside administration encouragement. I'll add too that Washington's 'pathway to citizenship' repeated themes takes a close second to the Presidents, and that's both parties included. Capitol hill and the White House are trying to deflect the blame. Thankfully, it seems like the American people see through it, now with only 31% approving of Obama's handling of Immigration. This is an intentionally made refugee crisis.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23946 Posts
June 22 2014 09:57 GMT
#22609
I have a question about immigration....

Should we apply precisely the same regulations on immigrants regardless of where they are coming from or should certain immigrants get different treatment based on locality?

In other words, should Central/South American immigrants be held to precisely the same standards as immigrants from elsewhere around the world?

This is to say, that an individual country/(political refugee's) circumstances would be treated the same but the idea that we share a border with the last country an immigrant was in would be irrelevant to how we determined an immigrants legal fate?

Or should the proximity of a country of origin/last legal residence significantly/slightly impact the individual outcomes of immigrants?

I am not sure myself, I am just curious how the community falls on this issue. (Particularly the US community but International opinion is welcome).


For the Conservatives:
+ Show Spoiler +
I am actually completely undecided on the issue so this is a chance to win me on something other than gun-rights Conservatives
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-22 11:12:18
June 22 2014 11:09 GMT
#22610
well i am of the position that borders are just undefensible if you are to take ethics at all seriously. so don't, and just do it as a kind of pragmatic land grab/demographics control. bring whomever and whatever is of use and discard the rest. welcome the elites and rich and keep out the criminal scum and unwanted trash who will lower property values.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
June 22 2014 12:03 GMT
#22611
On June 22 2014 20:09 oneofthem wrote:
well i am of the position that borders are just undefensible if you are to take ethics at all seriously. so don't, and just do it as a kind of pragmatic land grab/demographics control. bring whomever and whatever is of use and discard the rest. welcome the elites and rich and keep out the criminal scum and unwanted trash who will lower property values.

i share the same opinion. and i take ethics seriously.
against all borders

but the rest of your post is truly frightening
TL+ Member
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-22 14:33:41
June 22 2014 12:08 GMT
#22612
good.

if it doesn't horrify you, or disgust you, then we are really in trouble
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-22 15:12:26
June 22 2014 15:12 GMT
#22613
We should have Ellis Island style checkpoints at international airports and at the border. We should mandate a national ID card system to compensate for the instability such checkpoints would cause; every citizen's (especially the new ones) fingerprints and retinal scans would be taken. And we should have predator drones patrolling the borders with orders to shoot anything that moves, because if immigration was easy, it actually would be true that only criminals crossed illegally.

I obviously overstate every point, but you get the idea. America did very well for a long time (including during periods of serious terrorism, which is the only real objection) with a policy of welcoming the tired, poor, huddled masses. We still have tremendous space and natural resources, and an economy capable of absorbing immigration due to entrepreneurialism. All the "secure the borders" talk would be good and sensible if there was a legit route in, instead of this quotaed-up nonsense we have. I have a lot of friends (skilled, college grads) who have to try all sorts of shenanigans to stay here. I know we're still nicer than most countries in the world, but damnit, this is our thing. Immigration IS America the way that engineering is Germany or luxury goods and tourism are France or wit is England. The US making immigration harder is like David Cameron outlawing clever retorts.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-22 16:55:42
June 22 2014 16:55 GMT
#22614
the whole idea of of being able to become an american no matter if your ancestry goes back to the pilgrim fathers or not was actually something I always admired most about the US and it's also the thing Europe lacks most at the moment. Turning the US into some kind of fortress sounds terrible to me, and it's probably better to just deal with the problems of immigration.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
June 22 2014 16:58 GMT
#22615
On June 23 2014 00:12 Yoav wrote:
We should have Ellis Island style checkpoints at international airports and at the border. We should mandate a national ID card system to compensate for the instability such checkpoints would cause; every citizen's (especially the new ones) fingerprints and retinal scans would be taken. And we should have predator drones patrolling the borders with orders to shoot anything that moves, because if immigration was easy, it actually would be true that only criminals crossed illegally.

I obviously overstate every point, but you get the idea. America did very well for a long time (including during periods of serious terrorism, which is the only real objection) with a policy of welcoming the tired, poor, huddled masses. We still have tremendous space and natural resources, and an economy capable of absorbing immigration due to entrepreneurialism. All the "secure the borders" talk would be good and sensible if there was a legit route in, instead of this quotaed-up nonsense we have. I have a lot of friends (skilled, college grads) who have to try all sorts of shenanigans to stay here. I know we're still nicer than most countries in the world, but damnit, this is our thing. Immigration IS America the way that engineering is Germany or luxury goods and tourism are France or wit is England. The US making immigration harder is like David Cameron outlawing clever retorts.


Entrepreneurialism?? What?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43985 Posts
June 22 2014 18:31 GMT
#22616
Immigrating legally to the US takes a shitton of time and money. I started my process about 11 months ago now and while I'm living here legally now I still can't work and basic shit like getting a driving license is far harder for me (full UK driving license with our much more rigorous standards) than it would be for a 16 year old citizen. I've paid near $2000 in admin fees to the US gov alone (getting lawyers, gov authorised translators and the like would push it way up) and had I not fully researched the system, gotten 90% of the medical stuff done in the UK before I left, and bundled a bunch of forms to get another $1000 in fees waived it'd be way more. And even then I nearly voided the entire process by accidentally abandoning my application (if you leave US soil for any reason for any amount of time you have to start again from scratch, even if it's just a boat trip to the Canadian side of the great lakes or something). If English wasn't my native language I'd have had to pay for a gov certified translator to read it all to me, if the gov took issue with my medical history I'd need to get everything (full medical + immunisations) done again at my expense by a certified civil surgeon.

It's hard fucking work. I'm expediting everything I can expedite because I researched everything before I started so I bundled the green card forms with the forms that provisionally allow you to work etc and will be rushing those at a USCIS office the moment I get my notice of action (the acknowledgement that they have my paperwork) but without familiarity with the process it could easily be a year before I am legal to work.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11835 Posts
June 22 2014 18:42 GMT
#22617
Why is getting a work permit that hard? Don't they WANT you to do something useful and work legally? That sounds like something the government would want people to do. That is pretty much all people who don't want immigration complain about here: "The lazy foreigners just come to not do anything useful and abuse our social system!".

I must honestly say i am kind of happy i don't have any plans of emigrating somewhere. The whole thing sounds like a bureaucratic nightmare. I guess getting into the EU isn't easy either.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43985 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-22 18:50:26
June 22 2014 18:44 GMT
#22618
On June 23 2014 03:42 Simberto wrote:
Why is getting a work permit that hard? Don't they WANT you to do something useful and work legally? That sounds like something the government would want people to do. That is pretty much all people who don't want immigration complain about here: "The lazy foreigners just come to not do anything useful and abuse our social system!".

I must honestly say i am kind of happy i don't have any plans of emigrating somewhere. The whole thing sounds like a bureaucratic nightmare. I guess getting into the EU isn't easy either.

Nope. I should add that I also need a sponsor to guarantee that I won't be a burden to the government and be legally responsible for any costs I may accrue while here and that that sponsor pretty much can't be on minimum wage or have any dependents already.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
June 22 2014 20:08 GMT
#22619
On June 23 2014 03:42 Simberto wrote:
Why is getting a work permit that hard? Don't they WANT you to do something useful and work legally? That sounds like something the government would want people to do. That is pretty much all people who don't want immigration complain about here: "The lazy foreigners just come to not do anything useful and abuse our social system!".

I must honestly say i am kind of happy i don't have any plans of emigrating somewhere. The whole thing sounds like a bureaucratic nightmare. I guess getting into the EU isn't easy either.

The worry here is that they'll take your job for less.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23946 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-22 20:30:42
June 22 2014 20:12 GMT
#22620
On June 23 2014 03:44 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 23 2014 03:42 Simberto wrote:
Why is getting a work permit that hard? Don't they WANT you to do something useful and work legally? That sounds like something the government would want people to do. That is pretty much all people who don't want immigration complain about here: "The lazy foreigners just come to not do anything useful and abuse our social system!".

I must honestly say i am kind of happy i don't have any plans of emigrating somewhere. The whole thing sounds like a bureaucratic nightmare. I guess getting into the EU isn't easy either.

Nope. I should add that I also need a sponsor to guarantee that I won't be a burden to the government and be legally responsible for any costs I may accrue while here and that that sponsor pretty much can't be on minimum wage or have any dependents already.



But we can't change/update any of those laws without securing the Mexican border first... Because...... well just because...

It makes total sense to make immigrants from all over the world go through a ridiculous and archaic system because of the Mexican Border...

I guess if we are supposed to have the same rules for anyone in the world it makes some sense, but if immigrants from different countries can/should be treated differently than why the hell can't we change the laws about immigrating from India, UK, China, Etc.. Without having to do anything about the southern border?

The worry here is that they'll take your job for less.


There's plenty of the "The lazy foreigners just come to not do anything useful and abuse our social system!" too....

"Once these minors come to the U.S., they are eligible for a wide array of benefits and it will be years before their case is ever heard in court," said GOP Rep. Bob Goodlatte of Virginia, chairman of the House Judiciary Committee.

Source

One such measure, promoted by Republican Sen. Kelly Ayotte of New Hampshire, would offset costs by "rein[ing] in fraud among illegal immigrants taking advantage of child tax credits."


Source
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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