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On June 19 2014 06:37 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 06:34 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 19 2014 04:29 Jormundr wrote:On June 19 2014 04:18 xDaunt wrote:On June 19 2014 04:13 mcc wrote:On June 19 2014 03:33 xDaunt wrote:On June 19 2014 03:24 Nyxisto wrote:On June 19 2014 03:12 xDaunt wrote:On June 19 2014 03:06 Gorsameth wrote:On June 19 2014 03:02 xDaunt wrote:
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No kidding. That's his job. He's not a politician. He's a radio personality. It doesn't change the fact that he does a better job communicating conservative ideals than any current politician does and that his conservative ideas are more influential than any conservative politician's. And yet this "troll" is the best conservative leader they have. Shows the state of the movement, and if that's the sort of thing its followers want to hear I can see why. You know this whole "Candidates destroy themselves trying to appease the bigot base" happens because people like Limbaugh spoon feed these dumb smucks right? No, I disagree. The problem is that conservatives have been without a sufficiently talented politician to lead the movement since first term W. As soon as one shows up, the ship will right itself. We'll just have to see what happens. My prediction has been that someone from the libertarian ranks will be next big conservative politician and help reshape the movement. The problem aren't politicians, the problem is the ideology. As long as the gop doesn't come up with something better than "less government!! Free market is awesome!" and "we don't really like gay people and stupid atheists" this party is not going to convince a majority of the population. No, the problem isn't the core ideology. Let's play a little game. Who can articulate the conservative argument for allowing gay marriage? There are no conservative arguments for such. There are libertarian ones, but libertarians are not really conservatives. I disagree. Government (particularly federal) minimalism are important tenants of both libertarians and conservatives. There's also significant liberal support for it in certain aspects. This is why Rand Paul is the most interesting republican politician to watch right now. He's looking to bridge the gap between these different groups using this libertarian flag. I don't know if he'll be the one to do it, but someone will. Correction, Government minimalism are part of the RHETORIC of both libertarians and conservatives. Conservatives don't support limited government, they just support the status quo of crony capitalism. In the spirit of such, they want to deregulate some things while adding more regulations elsewhere. This does not make them different from the liberal POV, they just take different sides on different issues. Libertarians haven't really carried out any of their rhetoric (not that they've had a chance to) so it remains to be seen whether its anything more than such. Crony capitalism is more at odds with conservatives than liberals, who are more comfortable with government and business intermixing. In any case, crony capitalism has more or less been on the wane for decades. I don't know why you'd say it's on the wane. If anything, it is worse now than it has been in a long time, hence the growing populist movements in both parties.
The perception of crony capitalism and corruption has certainly gone up.
But I think that has more to do with people looking for a villain than anything.
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Well if the chief lobbyist for the cable industry is legally eligible as the head of the FCC, whose job it is to overlook this kind of stuff, then I wonder what "the law" is worth.
It's not like most modern governments are blatantly corrupt, they're way smarter about it and everything becomes kind of a legal grey area which is really terrible because it destroys people's trust in the institutions. (which the voting turnouts all over the western world reflect.)
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On June 19 2014 07:05 oneofthem wrote:
let's be serious. if it wasn't for silly liberals bringing up the issue it would be swept under the rug
Right, which is why conservatives threw Cantor out of office in a republican primary. Or you can just take your pick of big businesses that democrats have gotten into bed with. Looking past the obvious example that is the green industry, one of my favorite examples is democrat coziness with the cable industry, which is facilitating the elimination of net neutrality.
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On June 19 2014 06:58 oneofthem wrote:
le true believer conservatives do not believe crony capitalism exists.
Huh? Do true conservatives also think that communism was a fairy tale myth?
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On June 19 2014 07:17 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 07:05 oneofthem wrote:
let's be serious. if it wasn't for silly liberals bringing up the issue it would be swept under the rug Right, which is why conservatives threw Cantor out of office in a republican primary. Or you can just take your pick of big businesses that democrats have gotten into bed with. Looking past the obvious example that is the green industry, one of my favorite examples is democrat coziness with the cable industry, which is facilitating the elimination of net neutrality.
what makes you think i am defending le democrats here.
On June 19 2014 07:17 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 06:58 oneofthem wrote:
le true believer conservatives do not believe crony capitalism exists. Huh? Do true conservatives also think that communism was a fairy tale myth?
they do not. true believer leftists in the west were not very receptive to horrid tales of soviet brutality. so this does work for both sides obviously.
conservatives tend to see markets with this triumphalist america tone that mixes up all sorts of stuff from religion to nationalism
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On June 19 2014 07:17 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 06:58 oneofthem wrote:
le true believer conservatives do not believe crony capitalism exists. Huh? Do true conservatives also think that communism was a fairy tale myth?
there's certainly a huge amount of people in the Anglo-Saxon economies that believe in the awesome self-regulating powers of free markets and everything that happens is a feature and not a bug. And because it happens, by definition it is totally legitimate.
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On June 19 2014 07:18 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 07:17 xDaunt wrote:On June 19 2014 07:05 oneofthem wrote:
let's be serious. if it wasn't for silly liberals bringing up the issue it would be swept under the rug Right, which is why conservatives threw Cantor out of office in a republican primary. Or you can just take your pick of big businesses that democrats have gotten into bed with. Looking past the obvious example that is the green industry, one of my favorite examples is democrat coziness with the cable industry, which is facilitating the elimination of net neutrality. what makes you think i am defending le democrats here.
What, are you going to feign ignorance again on the very obvious implications of your posts? Last night it was "oh no, I'm not equating the radicalism of Christians and Muslims despite the fact that every single one of my posts points out the similarities between and none of them discuss the differences" and now it's "oh no, I'm not saying that democrats aren't also guilty of crony capitalism despite saying that no one would even talk about the issue if it weren't for liberals ie democrats." Come now.
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On June 19 2014 07:15 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 07:05 oneofthem wrote:
let's be serious. if it wasn't for silly liberals bringing up the issue it would be swept under the rug I am serious. Conservatives (Tea Party in particular) are constantly complaining about cronyism. GH tried to tell me the same thing once. I find it odd that liberals think conservatives are being disingenuous when talking about it. I can't help but think it's born from their obsession with campaign finance laws. Not supporting strict limits= supporting cronyism. Is that about right? At any rate, your assertion simply false.
the tea party stuff is a bit populist and anti east coast big corporations, but they are also not really conservatives. just americans wiht a confused ideology asserting themselves in the only way they can.
a conservative nowadays is typified by the readership of the National Review and Commentary among others. Cato, AEI, Hoover etc. market triumphalism is a state religion for this tribe.
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On June 19 2014 07:20 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 07:17 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 19 2014 06:58 oneofthem wrote:
le true believer conservatives do not believe crony capitalism exists. Huh? Do true conservatives also think that communism was a fairy tale myth? there's certainly a huge amount of people in the Anglo-Saxon economies that believe in the awesome self-regulating powers of free markets and everything that happens is a feature and not a bug. And because it happens, by definition it is totally legitimate.
I don't see how a market outcome you don't like is 'crony capitalism' unless you are talking about a government action that enabled or exacerbated that market outcome.
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On June 19 2014 07:22 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 07:18 oneofthem wrote:On June 19 2014 07:17 xDaunt wrote:On June 19 2014 07:05 oneofthem wrote:
let's be serious. if it wasn't for silly liberals bringing up the issue it would be swept under the rug Right, which is why conservatives threw Cantor out of office in a republican primary. Or you can just take your pick of big businesses that democrats have gotten into bed with. Looking past the obvious example that is the green industry, one of my favorite examples is democrat coziness with the cable industry, which is facilitating the elimination of net neutrality. what makes you think i am defending le democrats here. What, are you going to feign ignorance again on the very obvious implications of your posts? Last night it was "oh no, I'm not equating the radicalism of Christians and Muslims despite the fact that every single one of my posts points out the similarities between and none of them discuss the differences" and now it's "oh no, I'm not saying that democrats aren't also guilty of crony capitalism despite saying that no one would even talk about the issue if it weren't for liberals ie democrats." Come now.
well yea i am equating radicalism in christanity and islam in some respect. i have explained why it is ok to do so without implying one is worse people than another. it is simply the same dangerous atavistic trend, invoking documents with very brutish elements. i don't really understand your precise position here except that you mad about it, so i dont see your post as an argument.
as for this liberal stuff it's largely true. even if tea party etc gets mad about big corporations somewhat, they can be gently guided to place their hate against le government and the piglets sucking on its tits. these are the same people that believe in the magical utopia making power of the constitution, as if that document wasn't elite or crony enough.
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On June 19 2014 07:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 07:20 Nyxisto wrote:On June 19 2014 07:17 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 19 2014 06:58 oneofthem wrote:
le true believer conservatives do not believe crony capitalism exists. Huh? Do true conservatives also think that communism was a fairy tale myth? there's certainly a huge amount of people in the Anglo-Saxon economies that believe in the awesome self-regulating powers of free markets and everything that happens is a feature and not a bug. And because it happens, by definition it is totally legitimate. I don't see how a market outcome you don't like is 'crony capitalism' unless you are talking about a government action that enabled or exacerbated that market outcome.
Because cronyism is the natural outcome if you just let the market run its course. Every single "free market" economy confirms it, and the less redistribution and regulation the worse it gets. Countries like the Netherlands at least have managed to write stuff like net neutrality into statute. In the US the guy that formerly has lobbied for industry interests now has the job that should actually prevent that kind of stuff. It could be out of a satirical movie if it wasn't reality.
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On June 19 2014 07:25 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 07:15 Introvert wrote:On June 19 2014 07:05 oneofthem wrote:
let's be serious. if it wasn't for silly liberals bringing up the issue it would be swept under the rug I am serious. Conservatives (Tea Party in particular) are constantly complaining about cronyism. GH tried to tell me the same thing once. I find it odd that liberals think conservatives are being disingenuous when talking about it. I can't help but think it's born from their obsession with campaign finance laws. Not supporting strict limits= supporting cronyism. Is that about right? At any rate, your assertion simply false. the tea party stuff is a bit populist and anti east coast big corporations, but they are also not really conservatives. just americans wiht a confused ideology asserting themselves in the only way they can. a conservative nowadays is typified by the readership of the National Review and Commentary among others. Cato, AEI, Hoover etc. market triumphalism is a state religion for this tribe.
Not really conservatives? Do they define themselves another way? I guess next time before posting a one liner you should define your terms, since you seem to be using a different one than the people in this thread.
That still doesn't have anything to do with it anyway, those "market triumphalist" types still oppose cronyism. I think you are the one confusing things here. All those groups oppose government intervention in the markets (for the most part). That's hardly a "pro-crony" position.
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As Nyxisto pointed out, an anti-government intervention position is inherently pro-crony by virtue of how self-interest in the business landscape works.
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the labeling is whatever, point is the populist strain in tea party people is not conservative. that the tea party has some populist elements demonstrates that they are a product of the american ideological echo chamber and not really that the definition of conservativism has shifted. so really, they are conservative by accident of time and place in american culture.
as for the 2nd part, there's obviously no crony capitalism without state intervention.we all knwo the private sector is ruled by freedomz.
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On June 19 2014 07:38 farvacola wrote:
As Nyxisto pointed out, an anti-government intervention position is inherently pro-crony by virtue of how self-interest in the business landscape works.
I understood that argument, but that doesn't justify the assertion he made (that conservatives don't really care about the issue, or even believe it exists).
the labeling is whatever, point is the populist strain in tea party people is not conservative. so really, they are conservative by accident of time and place in american culture.
as for the 2nd part, there's obviously no crony capitalism without state intervention.we all knwo the private sector is ruled by freedomz.
You entirely missed the point. Your assertion that conservatives don't care about the issue is wrong. You can say that their positions lead to cronyism, but to say conservatives don't oppose it, or believe it exists, is a claim you are in no place to make. It's wrong, anyway.
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to flesh it out a bit, the dominant market triumphalism ideology held by whoever may hold them, has no space for a fair representation of crony capitalism. you get instead the perfect market and the ebil government whose touch taints these innocent and perfect captains of industry.
conservatives have for the most part either minimized the problem, or blamed it on government power. the market is doing OK, and if it's not, it's not its fault.
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On June 19 2014 07:39 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 07:38 farvacola wrote:
As Nyxisto pointed out, an anti-government intervention position is inherently pro-crony by virtue of how self-interest in the business landscape works. I understood that argument, but that doesn't justify the assertion he made (that conservatives don't really care about the issue, or even believe it exists). Show nested quote +the labeling is whatever, point is the populist strain in tea party people is not conservative. so really, they are conservative by accident of time and place in american culture.
as for the 2nd part, there's obviously no crony capitalism without state intervention.we all knwo the private sector is ruled by freedomz. You entirely missed the point. Your assertion that conservatives don't care about the issue is wrong. You can say that their positions lead to cronyism, but to say conservatives don't oppose it, or believe it exists, is a claim you are in no place to make. It's wrong, anyway.
i don't think you have a point other than saying tea party is opposed to some cnoception of crony capitalism. in turn i responded that the populist strain in tea partyism, the one that accounts for dislike for Evil Corporations, is traditionally not a conservative theme. that they see things this way points to a more nuanced classification of tea partyism.
so really, my assertion simply needed some kind of additional classificatory specification, it is still true with respect to the truth it had in mind to represent.
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On June 19 2014 07:42 oneofthem wrote:
to flesh it out a bit, the dominant market triumphalism ideology held by whoever may hold them, has no space for a fair representation of crony capitalism. you get instead the perfect market and the ebil government whose touch taints these innocent and perfect captains of industry
First of all, I don't know of any conservatives here who argue for a "perfectly free" economy (take that issue up with the libertarians who hang around here).
Second, that still doesn't display how conservatives thin it doesn't exist. Unless you have some new definition and form for cronyism. Conservatives oppose people using the law and paying off the politicians for their own ends. They also acknowledge that it happens. So I see no denial of the problem, nor any reluctance to talk about it. I do, however, see establishment figures from both sides that try to avoid the topic.
i don't think you have a point other than saying tea party is opposed to some cnoception of crony capitalism. in turn i responded that the populist strain in tea partyism, the one that accounts for dislike for Evil Corporations, is traditionally not a conservative theme. that they see things this way points to a more nuanced classification of tea partyism.
so really, my assertion simply needed some kind of additional classificatory specification, it is still true with respect to the truth it had in mind to represent.
Other topics are more important, yes. That doesn't mean they A) don't believe it exists, or B) that they purposely ignore it. Otherwise I could say the same thing about the left- liberals don't really care, it's just the extreme, populist movement that cares! Don't equate the party and their hacks with the people in the movement.
That's all I'm trying to say.
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Tea party advocates and and libertarians may think that there laissez-faire utopia is awesome and fair, but it's just ideology really. They're useful idiots. If you look at what kind of companies pump their money into these "free market" think tanks it becomes pretty clear who's really profiting from it.
I feel like this whole libertarian thing that strongly influences internet communities,(reddit is the same) is just the"go to ideology" for white college kids in their 20's. It's like the same with socialism in Europe among that age group. By the time they become 30 they notice that it had no foothold in reality whatsoever.
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On June 19 2014 07:46 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 07:42 oneofthem wrote:
to flesh it out a bit, the dominant market triumphalism ideology held by whoever may hold them, has no space for a fair representation of crony capitalism. you get instead the perfect market and the ebil government whose touch taints these innocent and perfect captains of industry First of all, I don't know of any conservatives here who argue for a "perfectly free" economy (take that issue up with the libertarians who hang around here). Second, that still doesn't display how conservatives thin it doesn't exist. Unless you have some new definition and form for cronyism. Conservatives oppose people using the law and paying off the politicians for their own ends. They also acknowledge that it happens. So I see no denial of the problem, nor any reluctance to talk about it. I do, however, see establishment figures from both sides that try to avoid the topic. Show nested quote +i don't think you have a point other than saying tea party is opposed to some cnoception of crony capitalism. in turn i responded that the populist strain in tea partyism, the one that accounts for dislike for Evil Corporations, is traditionally not a conservative theme. that they see things this way points to a more nuanced classification of tea partyism.
so really, my assertion simply needed some kind of additional classificatory specification, it is still true with respect to the truth it had in mind to represent. Other topics are more important, yes. That doesn't mean they A) don't believe it exists, or B) that they purposely ignore it. Otherwise I could say the same thing about the left- liberals don't really care, it's just the extreme, populist movement that cares! Don't equate the party and their hacks with the people in the movement.
i suppose you think crony is restricted to cases where state intervention is involved, but that's not a general enough view of it. any type of power can potentially produce rent seeking and the ossification of that rent seeking order is crony capitalism. look at for example the italian arrangement of networked board members or korean chaebol. the crony, close association for interest, behavior is so basicly human it is not restricted to government. it is simply an aggregation and ossification of that aggregation of power.
to whatever extent rightwing economists tackle crony capitalism it would be extremely disingenuous to restrict scope to government, rather than looking at similar phenomenon working between private actors.
btw yes, koch bros supporting le tea party is itself a case of crony capitalism
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